~+~ You Lied to US! - Fiery Grip ~+~

Akhratos

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

To be honest if they turned around and said this:
"Look, the skill is being exploited and we don't actually have time at the moment, with all that's going on , to implement a proper fix that doesn't make it useless. So in order not to ruin PvP for everyone by leaving it in, we're gonna break it for a while and we promise with update 1.x we'll bring it back when we've found a work-around to the exploits. In the meantime, here have the 2 skill points back"

If they said something like this, as a DK I would be more than happy. Cause I understand the need for the game to be enjoyed by the majority over one skill of mine working.

Even if they said "Ooops we broke it by accident, sorry we'll put it back", I'm a developer, poo happens, I'd understand. Or **** it, even if they said "We think it's OP so we're taking it away, here have the skill points" I would not be happy, but I'd understand and wouldn't be mad.

What is unfathomable and makes me mad is how they can break something without warning AND give the customers the silent treatment on top. Who else can get away with that poor customer service in their workplace?

And to make it even more unbelievable, they did EXACTLY the same thing to the Templar's Jabs who, rightly of course, went absolutely chicken oriental. And now they do the same thing. It's like the don't learn from their mistakes.

@ZOS, talk to us! Tell us what on earth is going on! Keep us in the know!

They did not only make it again, like they did with jabs, they did what they actively said they were not going to do.

Now they give us silence treatment. They must think we are that easy to be fooled.

monkeymystic

Archaon wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

To be honest if they turned around and said this:
"Look, the skill is being exploited and we don't actually have time at the moment, with all that's going on , to implement a proper fix that doesn't make it useless. So in order not to ruin PvP for everyone by leaving it in, we're gonna break it for a while and we promise with update 1.x we'll bring it back when we've found a work-around to the exploits. In the meantime, here have the 2 skill points back"

If they said something like this, as a DK I would be more than happy. Cause I understand the need for the game to be enjoyed by the majority over one skill of mine working.

Even if they said "Ooops we broke it by accident, sorry we'll put it back", I'm a developer, poo happens, I'd understand. Or **** it, even if they said "We think it's OP so we're taking it away, here have the skill points" I would not be happy, but I'd understand and wouldn't be mad.

What is unfathomable and makes me mad is how they can break something without warning AND give the customers the silent treatment on top. Who else can get away with that poor customer service in their workplace?

And to make it even more unbelievable, they did EXACTLY the same thing to the Templar's Jabs who, rightly of course, went absolutely chicken oriental. And now they do the same thing. It's like the don't learn from their mistakes.

@ZOS, talk to us! Tell us what on earth is going on! Keep us in the know!

They did not only make it again, like they did with jabs, they did what they actively said they were not going to do.

Now they give us silence treatment. They must think we are that easy to be fooled.

Biting Jabs change that they kept silent was bad, but the ability was atleast still usable.
Fiery grip however has been rendered completely useless now, and it is simply not working anymore.

Getting tired of how they pick different DK abilities and completely destroy them without thinking.
They should buff Inhale in the process so its actually worth using again as well.

Evergnar

Tremulous wrote: »

He's an angry elf.

Woolenthreads

Tremulous wrote: »

Well there's a perfect picture of an Altmer LOL.

Emperor

Still no answer from a mod.. sigh...

Mortosk

Emperor wrote: »

Still no answer from a mod.. sigh...

They'd just lie to you anyways.

Akhratos

@ZOS_GinaBruno‌
@ZOS_HugoP‌
@ZOS_AlanG‌

Care to give any "insight"? Or are you gonna stay silent after failing to keep your word for the 20th time?

monkeymystic

It's funny how they destroy the one single ability that works as a gap closer (even if it's already mediocre at that) for the only class that has ZERO range abilities or escape abilities.

And they ignore the dk community. It's pretty clear they hate the class with all the constant nerfs and silence.
In the meantime I can play an unkillable blazing shield bomber on my templar with range spells.

Emperor

I fear we may never get an answer. It would be nice to at least get confirmation as to whether or not this is intended and if it is intended it would be nice to get an apology. It would be the mature thing to do.

Lynx7386

So many complaints about fiery grip...

I pose a question to all the DK's complaining about the change:

Would you like nightblades to be able to teleport strike up to the top of a keep wall from ground level?
Would you like sorcerors to be able to bolt escape to a wall from ground level?
Would you like templars to be able to focus charge to the top of a wall from ground level?

If your answer to any of these is no, stop crying about your fiery grip nerf.

badmojo

Lynx7386 wrote: »

So many complaints about fiery grip...

I pose a question to all the DK's complaining about the change:

Would you like nightblades to be able to teleport strike up to the top of a keep wall from ground level?
Would you like sorcerors to be able to bolt escape to a wall from ground level?
Would you like templars to be able to focus charge to the top of a wall from ground level?

If your answer to any of these is no, stop crying about your fiery grip nerf.

But, fiery grip doesn't do that either. People want to pull people OFF the wall, not pull themselves up.

Emperor

Lynx7386 wrote: »

So many complaints about fiery grip...

I pose a question to all the DK's complaining about the change:

Would you like nightblades to be able to teleport strike up to the top of a keep wall from ground level?
Would you like sorcerors to be able to bolt escape to a wall from ground level?
Would you like templars to be able to focus charge to the top of a wall from ground level?

If your answer to any of these is no, stop crying about your fiery grip nerf.

@Lynx7386‌

All of the things you listed were an instance where a player would be able to basically teleport to the top of a keep wall. That would obviously cause big issues and exploits.

Fiery grip was about pulling a careless enemy OFF a wall. It was about making sure players on the wall still had to pay attention instead of spamming light/heavy attacks. It added a cool tactic to the game which is now gone.

On top of all this. THEY LIED TO US which is what I am most ticked off about.

Lynx7386

Fiery grip was about pulling a careless enemy OFF a wall. It was about making sure players on the wall still had to pay attention instead of spamming light/heavy attacks. It added a cool tactic to the game which is now gone.

Carelessness doesnt factor into it. There's no neon sign above your enemies telling you that they're dragonknights, that they have fiery grip slotted, or that they're targetting you with it. The ONLY way defenders could avoid getting constantly pulled off of the walls was to hold block 100% of the time, and that makes absolutely no sense from a gameplay point of view, especially for archers (who would primarily be defending those keep walls).

Fact is DK's could use this ability to single out defenders one at a time, and the defenders cannot teleport back to a keep during a siege. This allowed attacking forces to wreck the defenders with ease without even having to rely on siege equipment or bust the doors down. It negates the advantage that a defending force -should- have, and there were no counters or equivalents to it with any other class.

On top of all that it was being exploited by guilds to get large forces into a keep without having to go through the walls.

monkeymystic

Emperor wrote: »

I fear we may never get an answer. It would be nice to at least get confirmation as to whether or not this is intended and if it is intended it would be nice to get an apology. It would be the mature thing to do.

When it comes to DKs, it seems that ZOS just destroy and rip abilities to pieces until they are useless and no longer worth slotting (inhale, fiery grip, inferno and so on) and then keep quit while the dk players suffers and want answers.

ferzalrwb17_ESO

Other classes giving this the ok.. very shortsighted. Yes, the exploit was bad but justifying this silly nerf as the fix is ridiculous.

People are really arguing that pulling people off of walls was unfair? Come on. VR still can (usually doesn't but can) knock people off of walls. I've been knocked off by that thing but I've never been pulled off by DKs and I PvP a lot and I use a bow from the walls. I have very little to fear now (apart from an untimely VR that happens to throw me in the right direction).

I could spot a DK a mile away trying to pull me off the wall. No one else needed to come in that close. I've killed infinitely more DKs attempting that move than have been successful (since I've been pulled of a wall zero times). But I did have to be aware of it, be ready to counter or block and it was a distraction. As a non-DK.. it was fun. I miss it. Now I just get DKs spamming reflect and jumping up and down below me like fruitloops. Not fun.

So yeah.. Non-DK in support of the DK's here (in this case). Diversity please ZOS and explain yourselves.

Katkon

I think OP needs a cuddle.

Maulkin

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Carelessness doesnt factor into it. There's no neon sign above your enemies telling you that they're dragonknights, that they have fiery grip slotted, or that they're targetting you with it. The ONLY way defenders could avoid getting constantly pulled off of the walls was to hold block 100% of the time, and that makes absolutely no sense from a gameplay point of view, especially for archers (who would primarily be defending those keep walls).

Fact is DK's could use this ability to single out defenders one at a time, and the defenders cannot teleport back to a keep during a siege. This allowed attacking forces to wreck the defenders with ease without even having to rely on siege equipment or bust the doors down. It negates the advantage that a defending force -should- have, and there were no counters or equivalents to it with any other class.

On top of all that it was being exploited by guilds to get large forces into a keep without having to go through the walls.

Sounds almost like you've never PvPed. I think you need to be introduced to a skill called Immovable.

@ZOS_GinaBruno‌, @ZOS_HugoP‌, @ZOS_AlanG‌ still nothing

bugulu

They should bring this back.

Now you have dozens of defenders popping their faces outside of the safety of the walls knowing that they can't get pulled down and stands there till they notice they are attacked and then dodge rolls away.

Bring it back and for people who were exploiting, publicly name and shame them and temporary ban their accounts and together with the people who were the receiver of the exploit.

Bashev

Lynx7386 wrote: »

So many complaints about fiery grip...

I pose a question to all the DK's complaining about the change:

Would you like nightblades to be able to teleport strike up to the top of a keep wall from ground level?
Would you like sorcerors to be able to bolt escape to a wall from ground level?
Would you like templars to be able to focus charge to the top of a wall from ground level?

If your answer to any of these is no, stop crying about your fiery grip nerf.

The main issues with the skill is that now most of the time it cannot be used. You need to be at the same level with your opponent. You cannot use the skill on the hills.

Akhratos

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Carelessness doesnt factor into it. There's no neon sign above your enemies telling you that they're dragonknights, that they have fiery grip slotted, or that they're targetting you with it. The ONLY way defenders could avoid getting constantly pulled off of the walls was to hold block 100% of the time, and that makes absolutely no sense from a gameplay point of view, especially for archers (who would primarily be defending those keep walls).

Fact is DK's could use this ability to single out defenders one at a time, and the defenders cannot teleport back to a keep during a siege. This allowed attacking forces to wreck the defenders with ease without even having to rely on siege equipment or bust the doors down. It negates the advantage that a defending force -should- have, and there were no counters or equivalents to it with any other class.

On top of all that it was being exploited by guilds to get large forces into a keep without having to go through the walls.

Sounds almost like you've never PvPed. I think you need to be introduced to a skill called Immovable.

@ZOS_GinaBruno‌, @ZOS_HugoP‌, @ZOS_AlanG‌ still nothing

He could start with holding RMB to negate the pull.

Im not that sure hes ready to accomplish using a skill if he needs a warning icon above other players to be careful.

Fairydragon3

Tamanous wrote: »

Emperor wrote: »

Tamanous wrote: »

Glad it was nerfed. Nothing to do with DK itself. A pull attack in every single mmo is always the most OP power in game. When you pull someone from their own battle lines into yours it means instant death for anyone. If you have a knock back you must enter enemy battle lines first putting yourself at risk first.

It is the concept of the power that makes it too powerful. It has nothing to do with the class it is attached to. It is bad mmo design.

The nerf to fiery grip wouldn't effect what you are saying at all. To pull a enemy player off a keep wall you had to put yourself in danger first because you had to basically stand right under them.

The chains still work on a horizontal measure so you can still easily pull players out of their zerg.

I did not say I was talking only about wall pulling. Besides a wall is a wall. Earn your right to get into a keep and it's defenders. It is still a cheap exploit within the rules other classes cannot do. ZOS obviously thinks it unfair in THEIR game. I do not think you are put too much in danger anyway. You merely have to get within the max range of most other players (if they even have ranged powers) and click and back off again. The player you pulled is DEAD. Zero chance of living. That is OP as hell.

This said I am sure ZOS can try not make the power as useless as some state. Players must also realize when a concept is broken and used in ways not intended. I've seen this in every single mmo that had a pull. Pulls are knockbacks are always used in the most effective way even if unintended. This always means pulling players into death zones ... either surrounded by enemies, off cliffs or into environmental traps (i.e. lava) which all mean instant death. That is a conceptual failure. Everyone whines about time to kill being too fast yet defends the ability to one click kill others. Amazing.

My favorite class in Swtor for warzones was Sniper/Gunslinger and I couldn't even begin to guess how many enemies I killed by knocking and rooting them in traps or off ledges. My first class was an Agent which does not have a knockback or pull ability. Simply playing my Agent meant I lost the MOST EFFECTIVE WAY TO KILL SOMEONE other classes had. I actually had to fight them. The simple truth is that giving such unique abilities that allow 1 click kill ability to some classes and not others (and providing no equal compensation) is bad game design.

the range is too short for it to get the Cyrodil extended range bonus, and there are plenty of ways to counter a pull, templars can reflect reversing the pull, making the DK move to the target, Night blades can disappear with their Ult, sorcerers have that teleport. I have seen plenty of cases where smart or tough players could escape

Fairydragon3

bugulu wrote: »

They should bring this back.

Now you have dozens of defenders popping their faces outside of the safety of the walls knowing that they can't get pulled down and stands there till they notice they are attacked and then dodge rolls away.

Bring it back and for people who were exploiting, publicly name and shame them and temporary ban their accounts and together with the people who were the receiver of the exploit.

I have noticed the recent increase of people on the wall, I pretty much depended on DKs pulling people down so I could pounce, otherwise my best strat is to spam my siphon ability

AhPook_Is_Here

Chains was also blockable. How hard was it to block while using abilities on the wall? Not hard at all really. The same notion that everyone that can't be knocked down is using unstoppable is equally laughable, blocking with a sword and board build it basically the same as using unstoppable without the armor bonus. Blocking with even a staff will prevent being pulled.

Maybe they should just take the rather useless leap ultimate and make that the 1st ardent flame ability, then provide a replacement ultimate with some more unique utility like on z-axis aoe chains.

Bashev

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

Maybe they should just take the rather useless leap ultimate and make that the 1st ardent flame ability, then provide a replacement ultimate with some more unique utility like on z-axis aoe chains.

That's a fantastic idea. AoE pull max 12 targets which cannot be blocked. Perfect for fighting against the "trains".

WebBull

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Fiery grip was about pulling a careless enemy OFF a wall. It was about making sure players on the wall still had to pay attention instead of spamming light/heavy attacks. It added a cool tactic to the game which is now gone.

The ONLY way defenders could avoid getting constantly pulled off of the walls was to hold block 100% of the time, and that makes absolutely no sense from a gameplay point of view, especially for archers (who would primarily be defending those keep walls).

You obviously have no idea how to play or are just extremely lazy. Don't stand at the edge of the wall for 5 min. Move in and out. Also, if you stand next to a higher piece of the wall about a foot back, you can still cast down but many times you can't be pulled by Fiery. Yes, you will occasionally be pulled down just like you will occasionally die from spells while up on the wall.

monkeymystic

Bashev wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

So many complaints about fiery grip...

I pose a question to all the DK's complaining about the change:

Would you like nightblades to be able to teleport strike up to the top of a keep wall from ground level?
Would you like sorcerors to be able to bolt escape to a wall from ground level?
Would you like templars to be able to focus charge to the top of a wall from ground level?

If your answer to any of these is no, stop crying about your fiery grip nerf.

The main issues with the skill is that now most of the time it cannot be used. You need to be at the same level with your opponent. You cannot use the skill on the hills.

Exactly this. They rendered the ability useless and you would be stupid if you waste a slot for fiery grip after this change.

Fiery grip should NOT be so useless that there is zero reason to slot it on the bar. ZOS has already done their nerfhammer on Inhale and other abilities which got completely destroyed and no longer worth using (inhale was hardly worth using before the nerf even)

Like if they didnt break the dk class enough as it is.
Its still the only class with zero range dps or range abilities, and without escape abilities.

Emperor

At the VERY LEAST, they need to make Fiery grip work when players are just slightly higher/lower than you (eg. hills) and give us an apology for lieing to us.

FunkyBudda

Maverick827 wrote: »

FunkyBudda wrote: »

Tamanous wrote: »

Glad it was nerfed. Nothing to do with DK itself. A pull attack in every single mmo is always the most OP power in game. When you pull someone from their own battle lines into yours it means instant death for anyone. If you have a knock back you must enter enemy battle lines first putting yourself at risk first.

It is the concept of the power that makes it too powerful. It has nothing to do with the class it is attached to. It is bad mmo design.

I am glad about this nerf too. Since DKs were pretty vocal about the BE nerf, this nerf is a good "right back at ya" moment for me. Taste of your own medicine couldn't have been more bitter for DKs, but sweet for me

And the BE nerf was a "right back at ya" for the Dark Talons nerf. Not that this gets us anywhere, but learn your history.

I certainly didnt join the group that called for the Dark Talons nerf, I tend to side with the "buffs the weak" instead of calling nerfs. But since the whiners won and that set off the trend of calling nerfs, there's nothing to stop them. The only way is to let them have a taste of their own medicine, which this nerf rightly served.

Emperor

FunkyBudda wrote: »

Maverick827 wrote: »

FunkyBudda wrote: »

Tamanous wrote: »

Glad it was nerfed. Nothing to do with DK itself. A pull attack in every single mmo is always the most OP power in game. When you pull someone from their own battle lines into yours it means instant death for anyone. If you have a knock back you must enter enemy battle lines first putting yourself at risk first.

It is the concept of the power that makes it too powerful. It has nothing to do with the class it is attached to. It is bad mmo design.

I am glad about this nerf too. Since DKs were pretty vocal about the BE nerf, this nerf is a good "right back at ya" moment for me. Taste of your own medicine couldn't have been more bitter for DKs, but sweet for me

And the BE nerf was a "right back at ya" for the Dark Talons nerf. Not that this gets us anywhere, but learn your history.

I certainly didnt join the group that called for the Dark Talons nerf, I tend to side with the "buffs the weak" instead of calling nerfs. But since the whiners won and that set off the trend of calling nerfs, there's nothing to stop them. The only way is to let them have a taste of their own medicine, which this nerf rightly served.

At least bolt escape is still usable for what it was meant to do (ESCAPE, not bolt around constantly without ever stopping)

Fiery grip has now lost it's function in the game. It can't even really be used when fighting on ground level because of the slight height different of players due to landscape.

Emperor

Did they really make it so this thread couldn't be bumped anymore? Are they really going to just try to hide this instead of answering the question or admitting they were wrong?

EDIT: Alan fixed the thread. Way to step up and do the right thing Alan THAT is the kind of customer service this game needs more of!