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~+~ You Lied to US! - Fiery Grip ~+~
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badmojo✭✭✭✭✭
✭I don't agree with the progression of events, but I'm glad they removed this. Sneaking up to a keep wall and yanking someone off sounds like a really cheesy tactic and I admit to enjoying the anguish shown by the OP quite a bit.
Just as cheesy as people standing on the wall, watching a group of enemies below, only having to ever step back when some projectiles come their way.
Magelight has a range of 28m, fiery grip has a max range of 22m. You don't want to be pulled from the safety of your walls? Either stick by a mage, or don't poke your heads up.Edited by badmojo on July 10, 2014 6:55PM[DC/NA]1 -
daneyulebub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Meh. OP needs more froth.
I mean, if you're going to screech about them having "LIED", and sprinkle the posts with all CAPS, you also have to threaten to UNSUB.
It just doesn't hit that sweetspot of unhinged I know you're shooting for without that.
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Please print this email and keep it for your records.1 -
steveb16_ESO46✭✭✭✭✭
Can this meme ever get old? Why yes it can and did. In approximately 2006. It is now 2014.0 -
Akhratos✭✭✭✭This is a lost battle.
ZOS keeps breaking promises and blatantly lying to their player base.
Meanwhile, when something of this happens to the most-hated class of the game, it does not matter the nature of the change (like if they nerf the worst dk class skill, people will still be happy no matter it wont affect top-performance dk builds) most of the people will welcome it.
Now they will apply the silence treatment they do so well. And up untill the next stealth-nerf or stupid mechanic change (gcd or whatever they decide to mess).
If someone lets himself pulled down the wall, he owes it. You can detect player further than the pull range. But I guess this is the first game with a melee class having a pull...2 -
Akhratos✭✭✭✭
In Warhammer, Marauder class also had a pull, so whats your point? A pure melee class with no ranged spells/nukes, is it so odd they have a pull? I guess for some people it is, but what about ranged nukers like a Sorc having a ranged knockback in the destro skill line? Oh I see it coming, use a DestroStaff DK....
Can you now tell me if you could simply hold RB to block and completely avoid being pulled in wow? No, you could not.
Nor you could use something like immovable, or simply use the safer zone of the wall (not in the edge of it would be enough), simply because there were no sieges there.
I can not see how this "nerf" is so enjoyable by some people, it will not affect DK dps or power in pvp. It will only wash down the game so brainless players can stand in the walls edge without any kind of concern while using bow or destrostaff, damaging players down the wall and being able to knock them back at range in the same time.
Bow/Destrostaff = Damage you from walls and knock you back from 10/17m.
Now, their users will also be unpullable, just because they can not dare to hold RB or use Immovable (one less single-target ranged nuke in my bar? no way!).
Sigh, its blatant to see some of the more vocals "omg you washed down pve!!" elitists being so happy about pvp being washed down.1 -
Akhratos✭✭✭✭
What mechanics? The Warhammer keep sieges and Marauders you mean? I know, I know, it all comes to wow...
Furious crowd with pitchforks: NERF BITTING JABS AGAIN!! OMGG!!! BOTTERZZZZ TOO STRONKK!!! NERF/DESTROY FIERY GRIP!! MELEES PULLING ME COZ I CANT BLOCKKK!! EXPLOITERZZ TOO STRONKK!!
I have an advice following your logic for ZOS, make us all IMMOBILE while in Cyrodil, as they are unable to stop people speedhacking. Or better yet, makes us move in quadrants by turns...
Anyways, I doubt they would be able to fix the exploiting without ruinning the skill/mechanic as they have already done. Proof is, it is the same thing they did with jabs and botters...
The exploit potential does not reside in jabs/grip/whatever, the exploit potential resides in ZOS being the game developers...Edited by Akhratos on July 10, 2014 8:55PM0 -
Malmai✭✭✭✭✭
✭NerfEverything wrote: »
Reflective Scale isn't the problem, the Syrabane armor set is.NerfEverything wrote: »Lol @ at all these DKs acting like spoiled children. I can't wait to see what the reaction is when Reflective Scales gets nerfed.
Oh really? So a Sorc/Templar/NB with the Syrabane set can reflect 90% of all incoming damage in Cyrodil for an infinite amount of time?
Yeah, exactly. Reflective Scales is the problem. Argue all you want, but we all know there are more nerfs in store for DKs.
Templar can reflect btw also sorry but you are acting like a spoiled kid screaming for nerfs, it's you and 2 other guys i constantly see opening same threads and stuff like that.1 -
NerfEverything✭✭✭✭✭NerfEverything wrote: »
Reflective Scale isn't the problem, the Syrabane armor set is.NerfEverything wrote: »Lol @ at all these DKs acting like spoiled children. I can't wait to see what the reaction is when Reflective Scales gets nerfed.
Oh really? So a Sorc/Templar/NB with the Syrabane set can reflect 90% of all incoming damage in Cyrodil for an infinite amount of time?
Yeah, exactly. Reflective Scales is the problem. Argue all you want, but we all know there are more nerfs in store for DKs.
Templar can reflect btw also sorry but you are acting like a spoiled kid screaming for nerfs, it's you and 2 other guys i constantly see opening same threads and stuff like that.
Templar's Eclipse is a single target spell, unlike Reflective Scales, which affects every other player. Also you can CC break out of Eclipse instantly, while there is no way to break Reflective Scales other than waiting it out while the DK kills you.
Please try and keep your comments constructive and refrain from name-calling and personal attacks next time.0 -
Sihnfahl✭✭✭✭
Never played Warhammer, never followed it, so I use what I know.What mechanics? The Warhammer keep sieges and Marauders you mean? I know, I know, it all comes to wow...
Also, I used it as an example because the exploit potential in WoW was pretty much nil. The only thing of worth in WOTLK was Wintergrasp, and you couldn't win that by pulling people over the walls. You needed to get siege through, and that ... was unpullable.
You do so love putting words in peoples' mouths, don't you.I have an advice following your logic for ZOS, make us all IMMOBILE while in Cyrodil, as they are unable to stop people speedhacking. Or better yet, makes us move in quadrants by turns...
Actually, there is a way. Instakill any enemy who goes past the wall in the starter areas. Scroll becomes uncapturable if no part of both the inner and outer keep wall /door is destroyed. Pulls become useless for starter point exploiters, and you can't capture a scroll for keep-pull exploiters. You're still going to have to spend time and give notice that you're going after a scroll.Anyways, I doubt they would be able to fix the exploiting without ruinning the skill/mechanic as they have already done. Proof is, it is the same thing they did with jabs and botters...
You STILL need to spend the time downing a wall or door, inside and out.Edited by Sihnfahl on July 10, 2014 9:17PM0 -
Akhratos✭✭✭✭
Never played Warhammer, never followed it, so I use what I know.What mechanics? The Warhammer keep sieges and Marauders you mean? I know, I know, it all comes to wow...
Also, I used it as an example because the exploit potential in WoW was pretty much nil. The only thing of worth in WOTLK was Wintergrasp, and you couldn't win that by pulling people over the walls. You needed to get siege through, and that ... was unpullable.
You do so love putting words in peoples' mouths, don't you.I have an advice following your logic for ZOS, make us all IMMOBILE while in Cyrodil, as they are unable to stop people speedhacking. Or better yet, makes us move in quadrants by turns...
Actually, there is a way. Instakill any enemy who goes past the wall in the starter areas. Scroll becomes uncapturable if no part of both the inner and outer keep wall /door is destroyed. Pulls become useless for starter point exploiters, and you can't capture a scroll for keep-pull exploiters. You're still going to have to spend time and give notice that you're going after a scroll.Anyways, I doubt they would be able to fix the exploiting without ruinning the skill/mechanic as they have already done. Proof is, it is the same thing they did with jabs and botters...
You STILL need to spend the time downing a wall or door, inside and out.
I did not put any word in your mouth, Idk what you are talking about so please, clarify yourself about what I did put in your mouth?
"Just reminding folks that this isn't the first game where a melee class had a pull, but thanks to the mechanics of the PvP, it was just another thing to deal with, not something with a huge exploit potential"
"I used it as an example because the exploit potential in WoW was pretty much nil"
You seem to be trying to validate their change solely because it has "exploit potential". Same thing that had jabs (great aoe spammability), same thing that has any kind of movement in any real-time game (speedhack exploit potential)...
Pull + sieges has existed long before ESO came out, being you aware of it, player of such games or not, it does not change the fact. It does not change the fact that those games skills had the same potential, but you had devs working to overcome it, not simply crippling it.
Its not like Im trying to argue about something that has "exploit potential" or not, as grip/jabs clearly has, its about ZOS taking out of the game everything with such potential instead of fixing it, and so my advice to them about the movement in Cyrodil.
AOEs are the most potentially exploitable damage skills in any mmorpg, mostly used by botters to avoid the hassle for the bot program to target mobs that are constantly moving around. They should take them out of the game as well.
I am only following your logic and applying to other skill/abilities. Its something that you sometimes use to know if the logic used to make a statement is valid or not.
Your logic seems to be the same as ZOS, potential = out of the game. Mine is potential = latent qualities or abilities that may be developed and lead to future success or usefulness.
Its the job of ZOS to take care of that potential, not to cripple half the game mechanics because you are unable to.
That is what they do:
- Botters using a spammable AOE = cripple game mechanics adding a GCD and lying to their playerbase. STEALTH CHANGE.
- Exploiters using a pull skill in undesigned ways = cripple it down to useless (cant even pull a mob from a staircase now lol) instead of fixing the exploit cause, lying to their playerbase when they actively stated the opposite of this change. STEALTH CHANGE.
Exploiters using mem injectors to use speedhacks = Make the game turn based? Coming soon...Edited by Akhratos on July 10, 2014 10:05PM0 -
Mortosk✭✭✭✭steveb16_ESO46 wrote: »
Can this meme ever get old? Why yes it can and did. In approximately 2006. It is now 2014.
Well he asked if that guy could have been less constructive, I was just pointing out that it is possible.
Not that I want to taste DK's delicious tears or anything - I don't like to see anyone get nerfed. Would much rather they took the approach of buffing underutilized/underpowered skills to the same level of the OP ones instead.
That way no one gets hurt and everyone benefits.
Edit: And no, I disagree, that meme is timeless.Edited by Mortosk on July 10, 2014 11:55PM"Now I stand, the lion before the lambs and they do not fear. They can not fear." --Arthas Menethil (aka, The Lich King)0 -
Maulkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭@ZOS_JessicaFolsom, @ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_LenaicR
Nothing? Not even a word? Really?
It's a simple question: was it intentional, Yes or No?
If it was intentional why weren't we at least warned about it?EU | PC | AD1 -
bigzz03✭✭mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »@ZOS_JessicaFolsom, @ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_LenaicR
Nothing? Not even a word? Really?
It's a simple question: was it intentional, Yes or No?
If it was intentional why weren't we at least warned about it?
they don't care bro, let it go. just let it go.1 -
Maulkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »@ZOS_JessicaFolsom, @ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_LenaicR
Nothing? Not even a word? Really?
It's a simple question: was it intentional, Yes or No?
If it was intentional why weren't we at least warned about it?
they don't care bro, let it go. just let it go.
It's obvious they don't, but I do. If it's intentional and it's here to stay, I'll know not spend 2 skill points on it on my next respec. they don't come cheap you know.
I might become a forum pest and I apologise in advance, but I'm not dropping this till they at least say something about it.
We're paying customers and this is unacceptable customer service.EU | PC | AD0 -
SDZald✭✭✭NerfEverything wrote: »Reading all these DK qq threads during lunch is now my favorite part of the day. The best part is that it won't stop anytime soon. More DK nerfs are on the way and whether you want to admit it or not, we all know more nerfs are needed and deserved.
I don't exploit and I rarely PvP, the Nerfs have totally changed how my character works in PvE so I am not sure how I deserved it.
For the few of you taking joy in others pain, is that how you find happiness and self worth in life, by belittling others and enjoying their misfortunes? Just know that Karma will get you, the more you relish and wish misfortune on others the more will come your way.
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Malpherian✭✭✭✭✭NerfEverything wrote: »Reading all these DK qq threads during lunch is now my favorite part of the day. The best part is that it won't stop anytime soon. More DK nerfs are on the way and whether you want to admit it or not, we all know more nerfs are needed and deserved.
I don't exploit and I rarely PvP, the Nerfs have totally changed how my character works in PvE so I am not sure how I deserved it.
For the few of you taking joy in others pain, is that how you find happiness and self worth in life, by belittling others and enjoying their misfortunes? Just know that Karma will get you, the more you relish and wish misfortune on others the more will come your way.
Actually Karma doesn't exist in this world. It's just something people say to others to make themselves feel better because they realize deep down there is nothing they can do about it.
Bad people get rich, and have happy lives. Good people get stepped on, and are generally poor and have troubled, and hard lives.
This is not the world of hopes and dreams. This is reality.
Welcome to hell. You want to get ahead, become a Demon, the only place reserved for Angels on earth is on a sacrificial pyre, and their head on a pike.
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monkeymystic✭✭✭✭✭Yes, they lied, and they destroyed the ability completely.
They haven't even responded on the issue, even if many have brought it up.
How much more are ZOS gonna rip the DK class to pieces before they are happy? Like if destroying the Inhale ability to becoming useless wasn't enough already, or nerfing DPS by 40-50%, gimping everything there is left with the class and leaving the dk stuck in melee with zero range and only one buggy resource draining reflect left to protect themselves from 1000+ overload mouse click crits from sorcerers.
I don't understand how they couldn't test this before pushing it live and ruining the ability completely. It's already expensive and subpar.Edited by monkeymystic on July 11, 2014 5:00PM3 -
WhitePawPrints✭✭✭✭✭
✭Malpherian wrote: »NerfEverything wrote: »Reading all these DK qq threads during lunch is now my favorite part of the day. The best part is that it won't stop anytime soon. More DK nerfs are on the way and whether you want to admit it or not, we all know more nerfs are needed and deserved.
I don't exploit and I rarely PvP, the Nerfs have totally changed how my character works in PvE so I am not sure how I deserved it.
For the few of you taking joy in others pain, is that how you find happiness and self worth in life, by belittling others and enjoying their misfortunes? Just know that Karma will get you, the more you relish and wish misfortune on others the more will come your way.
Actually Karma doesn't exist in this world. It's just something people say to others to make themselves feel better because they realize deep down there is nothing they can do about it.
Bad people get rich, and have happy lives. Good people get stepped on, and are generally poor and have troubled, and hard lives.
This is not the world of hopes and dreams. This is reality.
Welcome to hell. You want to get ahead, become a Demon, the only place reserved for Angels on earth is on a sacrificial pyre, and their head on a pike.
Mind... blown.
Anyway, I'll throw it out there that I'm all for making the classes balanced and I do think DragonKnight is overpowered. I am a Templar, and hate Dragonknights.
But I don't understand how pulling a player out of position is considered an exploit? Pulling through walls is an obvious glitch but pulling someone off a wall is an exploit? No.
I think that worked just fine because, it's easily avoided by staying away from wall edges, or Crowd Control the heck out any player that approaches a wall, or have Flaming Oil up so that if a player is pulled out of position you can counter it.
Who complains about being pulled off a wall? Seriously? I've only been pulled off once because when I see a player approach the wall, I back up to cut off line of sight.
Edited by WhitePawPrints on July 11, 2014 5:02PM2 -
SDZald✭✭✭That is a pretty bleak outlook on life Malpherian. Yea I understand its not fair but it is what you make of it that matters. Does not matter if Karma is real or not if you feel you life with negatives and bitterness then that is what your live becomes.
Personally I hope that all classes get new and exciting skills, and that the ones they have are buffed, I want everyone in this game to be happy, and that is self serving because the more people who are happy the better the game is and the longer it last. So being happy over someone else pain is just counter productive and self destructive.0 -
Dontezz✭✭✭These threads are so full whiney little kids that act like you just stole their only toy.. I am DK thats PvPs alot and our role in large battles is to get the attention of enemys and try to stay alive while our team focuses them down.
Chain pull 1 enemy to you IS broken atm because you cannot pull enemys at different elevation than you atm.. even in Pve..
Reflective is not OP.. its the scrubs that see your huge wings flapping going yeah lets keep shooting him with arrows and crystal shards and not use the other 75% of attacks that dont reflect on em that think its OP.. OMG scrubs.. learn what works against it..
Chain pull was not nerfed ... it is broken atm and will be fixed soon.. I cant be the only person that sees that Zenimax has fixed hundreds of bugs/exploints .. Do any of yall still get spammed in zone from gold sellers? I dont see that anymore.. thumbs up there! I know for a fact that they are combating hackers as well.. just keep reporting any speed/teleporting/stealth/bots etc. I say great job Zeni keep up the work and this game will be the dream so many are pushing for.
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bigzz03✭✭For you that are completely clueless read the thread that caused them to screw with this ability.
oh and for those of you are dimwitted enough to not comprehend the conversation in the following link, just go away, but for those of you who actually have a brain and can read and comprehend what you read, this is why this skill is now broke.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/113022/chain-pull-enemy-faction-on-keep-walls/p1
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Sihnfahl✭✭✭✭I did not put any word in your mouth, Idk what you are talking about so please, clarify yourself about what I did put in your mouth?
..
You seem to be trying to validate their change solely because it has "exploit potential".
And THERE is where you're putting words in my mouth. I am in no way validating their changes. I even offered up a POSSIBLE SOLUTION that allows the skill to remain usable WITHOUT BECOMING EXPLOITATIVE.
And THERE is where you've dug in your feet. You seem to think I'm fine with the FG change. If you look back in my posts, you will find I am -not-.
And why did I bring up other games? Because they show HOW to design the mechanics so that, even though a pull skill exists, it doesn't become exploitative.
CONSIDER THIS.
Can't take the scroll without capturing the keep. Can't capture the keep without breaking the door that protects the flag (move that so it's only accessible by knocking down a door). Can't break the door without siege. Can't set up siege without at least one section of the outer wall being knocked down.
Pulling people over a keep's wall is now irrelevant. They can't knock down the door from inside... can't knock down a wall from inside. Even if they get inside the keep proper, they can't take the scroll. And they can't knock down the door in the keep proper because they can't set up siege!
You don't have to change chains in any way there. There's really NOTHING TO GAIN except if you want to help them set up a little gank squad inside the keep, but you'd be better served as a gank squad near an assault group...Edited by Sihnfahl on July 11, 2014 6:27PM0 -
monkeymystic✭✭✭✭✭For you that are completely clueless read the thread that caused them to screw with this ability.
oh and for those of you are dimwitted enough to not comprehend the conversation in the following link, just go away, but for those of you who actually have a brain and can read and comprehend what you read, this is why this skill is now broke.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/113022/chain-pull-enemy-faction-on-keep-walls/p1
Hopefully ZOS realise that they really messed big time up sooner than later0 -
bigzz03✭✭monkeymystic wrote: »For you that are completely clueless read the thread that caused them to screw with this ability.
oh and for those of you are dimwitted enough to not comprehend the conversation in the following link, just go away, but for those of you who actually have a brain and can read and comprehend what you read, this is why this skill is now broke.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/113022/chain-pull-enemy-faction-on-keep-walls/p1
Hopefully ZOS realise that they really messed big time up sooner than later
we all have the same hope, but most have lost all expectations at this point.0 -
Dontezz✭✭✭monkeymystic wrote: »For you that are completely clueless read the thread that caused them to screw with this ability.
oh and for those of you are dimwitted enough to not comprehend the conversation in the following link, just go away, but for those of you who actually have a brain and can read and comprehend what you read, this is why this skill is now broke.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/113022/chain-pull-enemy-faction-on-keep-walls/p1
Hopefully ZOS realise that they really messed big time up sooner than later
Yeah the problem is that I can have my main in a home campaign and have multiple alts in the other alliances guest there.. so we can have "spys' in every campaingn sabatoging and helping guildies at every turn.. Im not sure if this was intended but it happens in real life.. Its just that some guilds are using this "spy" tactic before others.. Honestly I think this is completly fair.. its war. But keep flipping for emporership is kinda crappy.. its still fair. the evolution of warfare in Cyrodil is ongoing. I tip my hat to all that come up with new and ingeneous ways to stomp down the competition... I just wish it was always my alliance and not others doing this 0 -
Maulkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭To be honest if they turned around and said this:
"Look, the skill is being exploited and we don't actually have time at the moment, with all that's going on , to implement a proper fix that doesn't make it useless. So in order not to ruin PvP for everyone by leaving it in, we're gonna break it for a while and we promise with update 1.x we'll bring it back when we've found a work-around to the exploits. In the meantime, here have the 2 skill points back"
If they said something like this, as a DK I would be more than happy. Cause I understand the need for the game to be enjoyed by the majority over one skill of mine working.
Even if they said "Ooops we broke it by accident, sorry we'll put it back", I'm a developer, poo happens, I'd understand. Or **** it, even if they said "We think it's OP so we're taking it away, here have the skill points" I would not be happy, but I'd understand and wouldn't be mad.
What is unfathomable and makes me mad is how they can break something without warning AND give the customers the silent treatment on top. Who else can get away with that poor customer service in their workplace?
And to make it even more unbelievable, they did EXACTLY the same thing to the Templar's Jabs who, rightly of course, went absolutely chicken oriental. And now they do the same thing. It's like the don't learn from their mistakes.
@ZOS, talk to us! Tell us what on earth is going on! Keep us in the know!Edited by Maulkin on July 11, 2014 7:59PMEU | PC | AD0 -
WebBull✭✭✭✭✭
✭mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »What is unfathomable and makes me mad is how they can break something without warning AND give the customers the silent treatment on top. Who else can get away with that poor customer service in their workplace?
I couldn't agree more. The fact that they have not even acknowledged the nerf after an entire week is unbelievable. Complete silence like nothing has changed, did they think no one would notice? The total lack of communication is more frustrating than the idiotic way the skill was nerfed.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48H34ukFe8g&feature=kp