Veteran System Changes Preview

Cogo

Anastasia wrote: »

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Oh noes you are going to get pinned as a filthy elitist now Cogo - "There been a few comments already, that sure....takes a few days and higher vet fills up.....with what...people who has not skills enough to do vet 1 areas. And you gonna take them to a trial?. Tsk, tsk, tsk.

Heh, dont worry about me, thanks though.

My only reason, ONLY, for my post, is because I REALLY like ESO and do not want it to fade because of easy mode.

Also, I do believe there is a big market for a MMO that offers the, yeah you know what ESO is. Offers a lot. Fantastic graphics. A pvp zone that makes PvE players who dont like PvP to go there! Its challenging and Sub, which is cheap and do keep a certain type of player away.

Even though I've done it all, pretty much. I am NO elitist. You should see me in game.

My stats:
* Started 5 days early access.
* Played: sais 32 days. Only play this char.
* Reached Vet 1 last week.
* Use no addons or google.
* I did build a guild...that took some time but the rest is very much ineffective play from me.
* I explore every stone in every zone. ;-)
* I talk to every NPC, read Lore, listen to quests. Took me 20-25 mins to choose who in the main questline in the last part (Please dont spoil)

I think, I lead the number of deaths on EU server. MAYBE raid guilds have more.
Not counted em, but over 1000 certainly. Maybe more.

I run around like a headless chicken in all zones before I leave em.
That means how I find skyshards, side quests, hidden items, wierd items, trolls who kill me and chests.
A guildie did not believe me when I said I think I got 20% or so exp lvl 1-50 by opening chests. I did not know there was an achievement for that. Looked at it. 798/1000
Worth to note, I dont really open chests when in a group. I dont care much. In dungeons, I care about tactics, fighting. Teamwork and making fun of wood elves.

I may have been an elite player. Trust me, I am no more.

BUT: To this subject. After I started in Vet 1, I have gotten better. Much better.

* I am trying NOT to be rude to anyone and say they dont have skills for Vet 1 areas. I am trying to say it is no where near impossible. Need to learn, you get better. This is a positive comment. :-)

jovial

Build diversity is crap here, I'll be the first to agree. Dumbing/nerfing down difficulty is not the answer however.

born2beagator

to the L2P'ers who are now doing QQing of their own

We don't even know what these changes exactly are. For all you know they could be a slight tweak. All I know is the current players that are going through the VR1-10 are not doing it for the difficulty. They are doing it to experience the content imo. Otherwise they would be in craglorn

Syntse

Drake81 wrote: »

Not only that youll floode the servers with new bugs again, but with it comes easy mode for everyone. So after effordless steamrolling v12 in no time, everyone learns, there is no real end content or something else who could motivate you to stay longer.

So I started playing with early access, my main char is vet1 and alt too. Took main char about 10 days game time to get there. Which is basically 2-3hours day and weekends more. I'm not seeing vet12 anywhere quite soon as I do like to take my time with the content. I'm sure there are plenty of stuff added once I reach vet12. And I'm not the only one, reading forums there are still plenty of people who have not even reached vet yet.

One thing to see here is that there is ES people playing and there is MMO people playing and these two groups play quite differently. Of course there are people who belong to both.

leandro.800ub17_ESO

Just hope you don't lower too much the VR1-5 they are balanced and need only a little more reward
As for VR6-10 mostly 8-10 yes they needed something to be lowered

Guppet

The_Sadist wrote: »

As a veteran rank 8 (almost 9) grinding through quests in my first enemy faction (last zone!) I think this is nerf is a little uncalled for. The content IS harder but that simply means I die more and can't face roll any and all content I come across. I'm told the last faction (5-10) is extremely hard for a rank 5, but I suppose I spent a bit too much time grinding for professions. I'm hoping the middle ground is truly middle. This is an MMORPG, the fact people are complaining about how hard content is and refuse to group up because of 'immersion' and other such nonsense is ridiculous. Craglorn aside there is literally only 2 reasons to group up, public dungeons (which I'll be able to solo it sounds in the future) and instanced dungeons. Dolmens and World Bosses were pretty manageable from 1-50.. nerfing veteran ranked ones may make them equally as laughable. A friend and I have been grinding content together and between the two of us and everything is relatively easy.. and that's just with 1 other person! If people weren't so ochlophobic they'd find a person as soon as they enter a veteran rank zone and grind / quest with said person.

All in all it's a fine line, make it too easy and people will be rank 12 waiting for content before the week is out, probably complaining about how easy veteran rank content is and how there's no content out there, but change it radically and you'll see a lot of people leave. I can't really complain, I have 4 alts to level! Ultimately it should be interesting if done correctly.

This is NOT Skyrim 2.0. It needed to be said.

So to sumerize, you are 3 or 4 levels over the target level and questing as part of a duo. Right, I think I can see why the content is fine for you.

Cogo

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Zenimax or players who have tried any of my 3 points THIS WEEK, please confirm or deny my statements.

I have seen comments about problems on several forums about a few things, that I have done which worked. These 3 problems seams to be a main reason for many not liking to play or whatever.

The reason for this post is if someone did not know of any of the 3 points and had a bad ESO game because of it. I'd like to help AND of course add more action in ESO, which leads to a secure ESO.

I do not lie. I can do mistakes however. All 3 points I have tested several times myself.

1. Grouping
Grouping works!
You do not need a group tool to get a group. Friends, guilds, zonechat, works fine. I might be a big chatterbox, but I get a group or someone to group with during quests....ALL the time. Maybe it takes a while.

If you want a group, make one. I use the group tool when I make dungeon groups and we miss 1 person. While we wait for the tool to find one. Ill keep searching in zone chat.

Just 2 people grouping for quests, bosses, public dungeons in Vet 1 areas, makes Vet 1-3 zones seam very easy, compared to solo. For me, cause I suck!
Example, I got 50% exp in Vet 1, in 2 hours, running around in Daggerfall with just 2 of us.


The groups I had with people I don't know? Yeah, lots of em gone strait to hell!
Some are on my friend list. Some are in the guild.
If you do not try to get a group, you dont get any.

Want fast exp? Group up!

2. Phasing

Phasing WORKS!
Can be improved, but works just fine on most quests. The quests they do not work on is those where you need to enter a building/cave for your quest. This is a general phasing problem. Not zenimax.

Group up with 1 person in Vet 1-6 areas and you get loads of more exp, can do more and might find a friend.

I have grouped for over a week now. different people, different zones. On different quest. Not ONE problem with phasing. Only one is where you need to enter a Door/cave. Most others works.


3. Exp in Cyro - Any PvPer who KNOWS Cyro, please confirm or deny this

Yes, there are quests in Cyro. Gives decent exp.

The MASSIVE exp comes from killing enemies, and anyone in your group, no matter how big or small it is, who gets the kill on an enemy, then all gets exp.

2 days ago, a guildie was in Cyro after the hot fixes, where those who could be there has 35ish FPS. He was in a 15 man group or so. Battle against enemy who was similar. All and all 40ish

He was Vet 8.5.
2-3 hours later, he was Vet 10.

Exp comes from a number of things, which pvp players are far more better then me to clear up.

Tanaka_Khan

So does this mean Craglorn is being nerfed to go from VR10 to VR12? Or must we solo the VR10 area in order to make it to VR12??

srfeivor_ESO

What a crazy, terrible change to implement. The purpose of a MMO is to group and socialize with others. There's almost no reason to group up 1-50. Now it looks like there will be no reason to group in VR content.

seneferab16_ESO

Cogo wrote: »

* I am trying NOT to be rude to anyone and say they dont have skills for Vet 1 areas. I am trying to say it is no where near impossible. Need to learn, you get better. This is a positive comment. :-)

It's not the difficulty per se, it's the narrow themepark way I am discovering the other zones, and how I felt like I accomplished something by killing Molag Bal, and how I found that it didn't matter at all and all of a sudden I were doing the entire leveling experience again. And then realised I'd have to do it again. I went from absolutely loving the game to feeling.. cheated. I don't have a better way to describe it, but it caused me to not want to do PvE anymore. I rather save that content for alts.

If Veteran Ranks were fluff (with no gear and stats attached t o them) and all of the zones would open up from the start, I think I would feel a lot different.

See. I love ESO and I love questing and exploring the world. But I hate Veteran Ranks with a passion.
I don't think it's the difficulty that drove people away, I think it's the lazy way it's been implemented, and how cheated you feel when you realise that the entire awesome experience you had levelling in your own faction, saving kings and fighting daedric influences was nothing but a long tutorial and that the real challenge lies with working for the other factions.

It's just.. bad.

Cogo

srfeivor_ESO wrote: »

What a crazy, terrible change to implement. The purpose of a MMO is to group and socialize with others. There's almost no reason to group up 1-50. Now it looks like there will be no reason to group in VR content.

There is a reason, but not combat related. Meeting new people are fun. Playing with a friend are fun.

What stopped grouping in ESO may/june, I think was phasing AND people only used a group tool! Use brain! ;-)

Tobiz

Cogo wrote: »

Tobiz wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

One of the guiding principles of our Veteran gameplay was to encourage you (not force you) to group. We wanted you to be able to reach max level by playing solo if you wished, but still encourage you to group with others along the way. This principle was the reason we made our post-50 zones more difficult; we wanted you to get together with others to take on tougher challenges and form social bonds while you did so. But we understand that, despite our vision...

we failed to:
a) make questing in a group work adequately
b) make a working group finder
c) balance gameplay making content difficult for some, easy for some.


Fixed.
It is generally not a problem of the content, but of how the underlying systems work. Grouping on the fly is generally a pain if you want to do more then one quest, and even then you have to know at what phase in the quest you are so you can specifically ask for this in /zone, because the group finder, even if it gives you a group, does not filter on language, level of greed or rudeness.
So when you find a group of degenerates that you actually can communicate with and ignore their rude attitude and greedy behaviour, you still have the clothie swoop in and bomb the entire area only to leave you waiting for the respawn.
I havent had coffee yet. Im kranky...

edit:spelling

A: Questing in group works. Not all, but most. Of course those quests where there is a part to enter a cave that is quest only....you need to be on same path as that. just like other game.

Phasing works. I group all the time in Vet 1-2 zones. No problems! Facts please

B: Even without a group finder. It sounds wierd, but you can get a group. Friends, guild. Zonechat.

I dont know if you tried that. On EU server its grouping quite alot now. Not from the tool. From ASKING someone....wierd eh?

C: This is an MMO. HOW can they balance gameplay to make it "same" for all? In a game where YOU decide your build. and your build is good in one place, but sucks in another. There is a skill everyone can improve....their play skill....

Cranky is ok. Rude is fine.

I am just answering your statements and you do seam not to uninformed, but it still amazes me that players BLAME a group tool for not getting a group.

Group tool I use when I fix a group and we need a last person. So thats good.

Think a bit....its not impossible to MAKE a group is it? ;-)

A Questing in group works when everyone is at the same phase, yes.
There is no easy way to see what phase you are in, other then "its not this phase".
Facts for you: my mom.. yeah for real, needed help with a quest. Could I help her? no. I had completed the quest long ago, hence locked out.
Random world boss encounter: I arrive after a LFG i zone, the party was kind enough to not start the encounter beforehand. None of the party members were visible but started the encounter. That obviously was unstarted in my phase. The group completed their phase and disbanded with a "gg, bye"
It could have been solved by a "travel to player. They dont make it easy, but yeah it can be done.
Maybe there should be an option straight away, "would you like to join the group phase"?
B Another example, myself a tank, a friend healer and a friend dps. Just looking for a last dps, should be easy right? 45 minutes later in various VR dungeon queues we went for PVP instead. Thats not the first or last time queue was unable to find a match. Certainly there would be a single VR dps looking for a group?
C Its not supposed to be "same" for all. It should be be very different regarding how you want to play. But there is an expectancy that if you focus on a playstile it should be somewhat viable. If there are skills in the game based on one of two stats it should be compareable to skills based on the other stat either in pure numbers, or by other effects. If either side of the base mechanic is overpowered or the other is lackluster the devs should acknowledge it, or state it intended. It is now stated for a fix, and before they fix other things that could be originating from the same problem they should see what effect that fix has.

Im on EU too, wanna play? @Tobiz‌
I never said it was impossible. I am saying it is not working as well as it should.
3 cups of coffee now...

Catches_the_Sun

wenxue2222b16_ESO wrote: »

I understand their logic for wanting people to group up - I think people would like to group up more. It's the phasing system that makes this difficult and often impossible. People all play at different times and you just cannot guarantee that you can all be always playing at exactly the same time and so be at the same point in a quest.

I spent a lot of time in LOTRO going back and helping lower level guildmates and freinds. That is my end game. When I level I go back and help other people do the same. I cannot do that in this game.

The fix you need isn't making anything easier. It is firstly letting people go back and help other people and secondly giving more options in levelling (solo, group, repeatable quests, PvP etc). At the moment you have to find a way to do almost every single thing without missing anything in order to get enough xp. I know new areas and quests and systems will come in time and make levelleing easier but at the moment I feel shoehorned into a very solo and linear levellling path.

This is another reason these changes are a huge red flag for me. They're simply not the right changes. Dumbing down the difficulty is a cop out and it tells me that they either can't or won't be able to make the RIGHT changes with the way grouping mechanics & questing work.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

One of the guiding principles of our Veteran gameplay was to encourage you (not force you) to group. We wanted you to be able to reach max level by playing solo if you wished, but still encourage you to group with others along the way. This principle was the reason we made our post-50 zones more difficult; we wanted you to get together with others to take on tougher challenges and form social bonds while you did so. But we understand that, despite our vision, this is not how all our players want to experience the game beyond level 50.

I'm also concerned about the above statement. If this was a guiding principle, why was it not simply communicated to us? These forums have been full of people complaining about not being able to solo Vet content since Early Access. Why not simply say "it's not intended to be solo'd", then focus on fixing the grouping/phasing mechanics.

I recall a conversation I had with one of these players within the first couple of weeks. He was complaining that he couldn't solo Vet content with his class choice. I asked how do you know the content is intended to be solo'd, to which he responded that he played in closed beta and Zenimax always communicated to them that Vet content was intended to be solo'd. It doesn't matter if he was right or not. Zenimax had so many opportunities to at least share their intended vision with the community, and they failed to do so. Instead, we're getting this dumbing down of content & our borked grouping/phasing mechanics will still be here.

Paske

Good news !

I will still let my sub lapse untill new patch comes out. But news like this warm my heart with glee.

V3 Sorc ...

yelloweyedemon

born2beagator wrote: »

Kraen wrote: »

Ohh god. So crybabies won again, and the game is losing one of its few challenging activities.

In long term, this is a very bad decision.

Keep the butthurt coming L2P'ers. Maybe now we won't have to see your snooty posts anymore.

if you want hardcore there are plenty of games out there that give it too you.

Why is this wrong for him and right for you?

"Keep the butthurt coming noobs. Maybe now we won't have to see your snooty posts anymore.

if you want facerolling easy content there are plenty of games out there that give it to you.

Crybaby

Darzil

I think all the players want a more nuanced response than lets nerf it into the ground or can everything be preserved for ever, can we try to be nicer about it?

I doubt anyone would be against the idea that VR content should be balanced, should have greater challenge from bosses and group content than trash groups, and that classes and skillsets should be more balanced. I don't see that nerfing everything equally is the answer, though I guess it's easier to do in the short term.

I do recommend a good first step for Zenimax would be to work out why monsters are harder in veteran zones than Craglorn, and whether having them pretty much ignore armour/resists is good for game balance. I'd then recommend they look at tweaking monsters like Gargoyles (maybe make them all either resistant or not to CC, and if resistant, slow them down a bit), Wispmothers (maybe just make them a bit lower in HP, so they are a fairer dps race, or reduce the wisp HP so they are more like the HP of the bombs some casters summon), etc, rather than making blanket changes. When the challenge is the trash, there is an issue. When nearly everything involves "use CC", there is an issue. When most tactics no longer work in veteran zones, there is an issue. When dying repeatedly solo is still easier than trying to find another person on the same phase as you, there is an issue.

Digiman

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hi everyone,
Thank you for sticking with us, sharing your concerns, and supporting a game we all love.

Finally, some appreciation for loyalty of your customers. But it falls on deaf ears with those who don't follow the forums. Even so July 7th better fix if not all then 95% of the bugs that plague this game.

With 2 scheduled maintenance days and 15 dollars fee to play it you have done absolutely nothing to entice those customers to remain loyal. I really want to see a huge change in a direction, even a few repainted free mounts or lame pets with a thank you email for paying during our most bugged moments will get those customers to come back and feel appreciated.

For me, I really want an inspiration fix for leveling enchantment released during that VR content patch on the 7th of july. I understand balancing classes is difficulty and won't fault you the length we wait for those balance changes to be implemented as with most MMO's it can take years. But with fixes to bugs, crafting balances and improvements to increase the ease in finding groups while developing rewards for those who remain loyal will keep customers paying you to play this for years to come. Don't make game reviewers mark this as the greedy unprofessional game you have made since launch.

V3ntoux

Fix the fps issue before changing the game please.

DigitalHype

Hilgara wrote: »

Slippery slope. If you keep making it easier if someone complains then the logical conclusion of that is you end up with no one complaining but no challenge at all left in the game. This doesn't sound too bad and I hope it really is 'middle ground' but please don't carry on down this path till we have difficulty scaled to the least capable players.

The same argument can be made for not setting difficulties to meet the demands of the "most efficient" character builds.

Sakiri

AngryNord wrote: »

Crowzer wrote: »

VR didn't bother me so much but PLEASE dont add new ranks....

Uh, are there any online game (I refuse out of principle to Call ESO an MMO) that do NOT raise the Level limit when New content is added?

Yes. EverQuest 2 had 3 expansins at level 90, two at 70 and two at 80.

Shunravi

Mujuro wrote: »

After Monday, that title will mean little. I wish ZOS would find some suitable way to reward those of us who got through all of this the "hard way", rather than just doing the, "yes, we screwed you very much, have a nice day".

my problem is that I'm vet12, but i don't care that im vet12. it really does not mean much to me as so many grinded craglorn to get it. vet12 does not feel like a true measure of skill and experience.

Fuxo wrote: »

IMO, veteran level content is a lot better than the normal one. And the reason is freedom. Freedom of choice how you will progress through a zone, since 1 zone = 1 level.
In normal content, you have to follow the quests, otherwise you would either under level or over level the content. No freedom. Pure theme park.

Here is a suggestion: make 1-50 zones to be like veteran ones, i.e. 1 zone will have content spanning over 1-2 levels. Players would finish factions at level 15, 30 and 45 respectively, and reach level 50 in coldharbour. Yes, the main quest would require some changes to support it.

But the advantage is obvious - players would have a lot more freedom and the world would be much more open. You could also introduce randomly generated dungeons with increased difficulty, so they represent a bigger, but optional challenge.

Cyrodiil, adventure zones, trials, and veteran dungeons would represent veteran level content. Plus players could visit any faction and either do new veteran level quests or enjoy open world PvP everywhere.

That was my impression of the vet zones too. And honestly, it is one of the things i like most about vet. In the other TES titles, my level meant far less than how advanced I was in a skill. level really just felt like it helped to keep things challenging as my skills advanced.

The change you suggest would automatically make the game feel more like an elder scrolls game than it does now, to me at least. Honestly the levels just feel like something to keep mmo players happy, or an attempt to at least...

hiyde

Some random thoughts...

Wanna see what a continuous path of decreasing difficulty and listening TOO much to the "I want it easier crowd" does to a game? I have 5 words for you:
Lord of the Rings Online.

What was once a healthy game that offered something to everyone became a "no new group content because the majority doesn't raid / faceroll solo content naked" MMO.

There are videos of players literally soloing the hardest group content naked with a frying pan as a weapon.

I'm not a raider but I understand what the hardcore "give me a challenge" raider crowd brings to a game (they play a lot, have great advice to offer, they buy consumables / crafted items from crafters).

As for the VR difficulty, I can only offer my personal experience as a bow using NB in medium armor: I'm VR7 and getting through the levels just fine. It is not easy.

I've had to experiment with skills and rotations,
I've had to keep up on my gear,
I've had to learn to identify which NPC is the most dangerous in a group and take it out first.
I've had to pay attention each and every multi-NPC fight and not watch TV while mindlessly hitting 3 keys.

It has made me a better ESO player. I've learned things I never would have learned if the content had been easier. And I did it solo, which is what I prefer to do most of the time.

Despite what I've just said, this isn't meant to be a "L2P" thread. I'd like to see options for all types of players but not solutions for one type at the expense of others.

Key missteps that I feel contributed to the problem:

- Craglorn should have been gated to VR10+ only. I was already in VR content when Craglorn launched. The difference in VR population once people picked up the anomaly-grind crackpipe was striking.

- Making group mechanics work (so, you know, people could group in VR as you intended) should have been addressed LONG ago.

So we'll see how far the pendulum swings and what impact it has, but I fear short term fixes, if not done right, won't be good for the long term health of ESO.

A game I played and cherished for over 5 years made bad choices by putting too much stock into what the loudest complainers were saying and turned their game into a ghost town in a very short time. Learn from the mistakes (and successes) of your competitors, ESO. You've got a lot right here.

For as long as I can log in to the game and find fun/interesting/challenging things to do, I'll be here playing while the challenges get sorted out.

Cogo

seneferab16_ESO wrote: »

Cogo wrote: »

* I am trying NOT to be rude to anyone and say they dont have skills for Vet 1 areas. I am trying to say it is no where near impossible. Need to learn, you get better. This is a positive comment. :-)

It's not the difficulty per se, it's the narrow themepark way I am discovering the other zones, and how I felt like I accomplished something by killing Molag Bal, and how I found that it didn't matter at all and all of a sudden I were doing the entire leveling experience again. And then realised I'd have to do it again. I went from absolutely loving the game to feeling.. cheated. I don't have a better way to describe it, but it caused me to not want to do PvE anymore. I rather save that content for alts.

If Veteran Ranks were fluff (with no gear and stats attached t o them) and all of the zones would open up from the start, I think I would feel a lot different.

See. I love ESO and I love questing and exploring the world. But I hate Veteran Ranks with a passion.
I don't think it's the difficulty that drove people away, I think it's the lazy way it's been implemented, and how cheated you feel when you realise that the entire awesome experience you had levelling in your own faction, saving kings and fighting daedric influences was nothing but a long tutorial and that the real challenge lies with working for the other factions.

It's just.. bad.

Right! I see where you coming from. And I am wierd and can understand you even if I have enough view on that. Hell yeah I kicked that devils butt! He didnt die though. Which, for me, means a future story maybe?

For me, it did want me....no scatch that, I am gonna search every INCH of Tamriel to find that spineless honorless worthless mage and slowly kill him, If I had the power, I would resurrect him, only to kill him again!

At the that point, I was so in...I was there....I felt HATE and sorrow. Thats how good that quest line is.

I am also an explorer. But I explore in my way.....all over. Since I dont use any addons or google I have a lot to look for, which is fun, but I am struggling with skillpoint. Dont have all skills like most.

But, I am having fun!

First, I felt very much like you. BUT, I am bound to ebonheart, as an orc. I got a story to explain that, RP wise...but also kinda dont need to be a RP to ask what the hell a high elf is doing in Ebonheart. Could just say he wanted to rule it something.

I like the conflict and the 3 alliances. AND that they are very different.
I wanted to make a char in each of em to explore em fully. But tried out daggerfall. My brethen orcs are in there. So I was not sure....since I am in fact a traitor or sort. Not in my heart and I got my honor.

Anyway. Cool place. Fun quests. VERY different to ebon! I dont get people who say Quests in ESO are boring.....

In the city...the hail to the kind crap! No way! That alliance is NEVER getting me. So I explore that happily. All quests there isnt to help their alliance. Its to help people too.

Otherwise I agree. But I think they are working on just what you suggest. However, they set their quality line with the lore, graphcs, cool ideas and types of quests. hidden objects, lots.

Anything less....we would not accept! There is a reason why it took a long time for ESO to get released. Was a decent launch btw. Those who say otherwise simply havnt seen a MMO launch.

Vet I like! It makes PvP balanced and it makes enemies easier to balance as well...because we all are lvl 50 in lvl. But the Vet gives us a little extra.

You have seen what vets gonna get right? Some sort of own skill to choose from or effect or something. That we get per level, according to Zeni statement. Didnt say what though.

What drove people away from ESO?

May: 99% had no clue what ESO was. Most expected WoW 2. NO idea why so many bought the game and didnt know sod all about it.

June: Some, who expected skyrim online, even if Zenimax Blasted that all over that ESO is not skyrim online. I even saw several comments who where annoyed that so many others where allowed in "his" world. Well...everyone dont know what a product is. I cant tell the back or front on an engine :-p

Also June....Good fast players. thats 1 group. And cheaters, thats another group. Got to highest level in like what 3 weeks? 2?

OF course they going to be bored! Missed the whole game!

Some pvpers left, not sure if it was a few or many. Those who expected Arenas. Also wow style. Also several screamings from Zenimax before about Cyro.

Those PvPers who only play ESO for the PvP.....are on a break or left, that I understand. Cyro is kiking up again now finally.

Then of course some people leave cause they dont like the game. Happens.
Hell, think I bought 20 MMOs. always play each for at least a month to give them a try.

Only ones I played longer then a month. EQ, AO, Vanguard, Conan, WoW, Eve and SWTOR.

I WISH!!!! So much that I was not stupid after EQ and looking for a new EQ. LOVED when EQ2 came out. Found out it wasnt EQ.

Now....I know I missed years of a great game. So silly to have expectations....ruins a lot for you.

Kraen

Its amusing how players - instead of learning how to play the game - are crying here, and demanding the nerfs.

What the hell? Where is the logic? If someone is a bad player, the game will become easier to match his low skills? Why not to learn to how play your class?

This will result in steamrolling rhe content, and then "no endgame ffs" cries from the very same people that are demanding easier Veteran Content.

They were not able to do it hard way, and now, they will streamroll it and then cry for more content - of course easy enough to be soloed again in 30 mins.


This very logic is beyond me. If you are failing, you need to learn how to play this game. The game just cannot be nerfed and challenging content cannot be wasted just because some individuals are imbeciles who dont know how to tap the button.

ESOcrafter

To be honest I'm against this change for the VR zones. Finally a decent challenge for soloing and zones that are actually fun to run in with a duo or small group and now they are changing it for people that want to play on easy mode.

This bothers me, it's the one thing that plagues all MMOs and that is how Devs are so accommodating to the crying that players have. Not saying that some of the complaints players have at times are not justified but in this case it's not.

So now the challenge me and my friend have at running VR zones together is about to come to an end? Great....back to easy mode that we had on the non VR zones....Thanks All.

fat.old.frog_ESO

Imo, this is going to mask existing problems. Templar and NB will remain sub par compared to DK/Sorc, but the issue will be masked by the difficulty reduction. I am not against the difficulty reduction, but it it a band-aid to cover underlying issues between the classes instead of addressing said issues.

Maybe they just want some breathing room while they figure out how to balance classes, if things are easy for all then fewer will complain. My sub is up tomorrow, really not sure about renewing. As a Templar player this seems more avoidance of issues than addressing issues.

Guppet

Persephonius wrote: »

I don't understand. It seems to me that ZOS are taking these forums too seriously. Everyone I have spoken to in-game have said the exact opposite. That the VR zones were far too easy, the endgame trials are too easy to 'cheese', and the overall feeling of accomplishment is missing as doing everything was a face-roll.

Changing the VR content is not improving the experience of the players that have complained about them, as they will likely never do it, or do it once and forget about it; but rather punishing the players that actually like the VR zones. This will diminish the lifetime of the current content. It would have made more sense to introduce alternatives to the VR zones in levelling

I have felt that the 'big challenges' were coming, the things that get players hooked and make them analyze their character builds rigorously and needing to build strong team orientated mechanisms to accomplish the main endgame objectives. One of the main elements of an MMO are the player-to-player driven interactions which enable far greater complexity than is achievable in a single player game. People choose to play an MMO for these interactions in one form or another. These changes appear to be pushing the game in the direction of a purely single player experience, which does not make any sense. The best experiences I have had in MMO's come from team orientated progression 'raiding'; and the large scale PvP interactions that come from player driven economies and high pressure/consequence PvP battles (such are my experiences in EvE online, Swtor and WoW). I have seen many negative comments around the place as to the state of Swtor, but one of my most memorable times in an MMO comes from joining a Progression team for Denova Nightmare Mode when it was released. It was stated over and over by the player base that this operation was undoable. This was not received by the developers of the operation as criticism, but as praise (no matter how it was worded ). No matter how much it was criticized for being too hard, players continued to attempt it, and eventually it was completed (and once a way was found, it was very doable by a lot of people). That was an achievement worth having! This was reason to keep playing the game and improve not only your character and your own skills, but your teamwork.

It seemed to me so far that it was not really understood what player builds could accomplish in ESO, such as where trial bosses have been killed in literally 20 seconds or less. I can see that the actual mechanics of the trials are challenging, but the ability to completely ignore them and defeat bosses in seconds is purely a PvE content balancing issue. I was expecting that this would be addressed in future trials after greater insight of what can be done with character builds has been understood. With these changes to the VR system, I am now concerned that if ever a truly challenging trial is released, where a true progression raid team can sink their teeth into, it will be re-balanced as too many people will complain they can no longer cheese the mechanics. These complaints I believe have been mis-interpreted. Instead of buckling under and giving in, they should be interpreted as what they really are: hey you have developed something that is quite challenging here and is making me think and adapt what I have been doing, I cannot plant my face on the keyboard and roll side to side anymore.

Everyone that has complained that content is too hard, consider this. After you have face-roll grinded your way to vet-12 in a matter of days, completed the main endgame achievements after a week or so, what then?

I actually read all you said and it was well written, but the thing is they are nerfing the difficulty of the leveling content, not any of the end game challenges.

None of the games you mentioned had leveling content this hard. Difficulty very much has a place in any MMO, but that difficulty needs to be once you have reached max level, not on the way to max level.

If the difficulty is on the way to max level, many players give up before max level, which is very bad for player retention.

VR12 is max level not VR1, so players do have to achieve that before they can be considered for challenges, or they do not get invites. The devs may have intended VR zones to be end game or optional, but it's just not, it's completely compulsory.

Syntse

Digiman wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hi everyone,
Thank you for sticking with us, sharing your concerns, and supporting a game we all love.

Finally, some appreciation for loyalty of your customers. But it falls on deaf ears with those who don't follow the forums. Even so July 7th better fix if not all then 95% of the bugs that plague this game.

I'm sure you would like to be the developer @ Zenimax to fix all those bugs in the millions of lines of code. There are bugs and they should be fixed but 95% fixed in less than week, get some developing experience and then come to post.

Shunravi wrote: »

my problem is that I'm vet12, but i don't care that im vet12. it really does not mean much to me as so many grinded craglorn to get it. vet12 does not feel like a true measure of skill and experience.

And why should it feel anything else than personal achievement. I at least play for my self, I like to see my own progress. I could not care less if someone got vet12 in 2 days. Good for him, now wait content for your level. People have more fun when they do not try to compare themselves to others all the time and trying to be "better".

I will lol every single one that goes "I went to vet12 when it still was hard", and suggest them to print themselves a diploma on the wall. Virtual achievements such credit much victory wow.

SRIBES

What? Why are you making it easier? I can solo almost every world boss.. VR content is supposed to be hard.
If any change should be made to PvE it should be to make it more interesting. I'm a EP player and going through AD or DC content I really don't care about there story. It would have been much more interesting if we were a spy or something with a new strory line. I mean the NPCs still talk as if you haven't defeated molag bal or you joined there alliance. It also would have been cool if the vr zones looked like they were effected by the after math of molag bal. Veteran zones are boring imo other then craglorn. It's a TES game and a MMO. Making it feel more like a tes game and making vr zones fun and hard is smart. If anything I want a bigger challenge. Some people just need to l2p

yelloweyedemon

hiyde wrote: »

Some random thoughts...

Wanna see what a continuous path of decreasing difficulty and listening TOO much to the "I want it easier crowd" does to a game? I have 5 words for you:
Lord of the Rings Online.

What was once a healthy game that offered something to everyone became a "no new group content because the majority doesn't raid / faceroll solo content naked" MMO.

There are videos of players literally soloing the hardest group content naked with a frying pan as a weapon.

I'm not a raider but I understand what the hardcore "give me a challenge" raider crowd brings to a game (they play a lot, have great advice to offer, they buy consumables / crafted items from crafters).

As for the VR difficulty, I can only offer my personal experience as a bow using NB in medium armor: I'm VR7 and getting through the levels just fine. It is not easy.

I've had to experiment with skills and rotations,
I've had to keep up on my gear,
I've had to learn to identify which NPC is the most dangerous in a group and take it out first.
I've had to pay attention each and every multi-NPC fight and not watch TV while mindlessly hitting 3 keys.

It has made me a better ESO player. I've learned things I never would have learned if the content had been easier. And I did it solo, which is what I prefer to do most of the time.

Despite what I've just said, this isn't meant to be a "L2P" thread. I'd like to see options for all types of players but not solutions for one type at the expense of others.

Key missteps that I feel contributed to the problem:

- Craglorn should have been gated to VR10+ only. I was already in VR content when Craglorn launched. The difference in VR population once people picked up the anomaly-grind crackpipe was striking.

- Making group mechanics work (so, you know, people could group in VR as you intended) should have been addressed LONG ago.

So we'll see how far the pendulum swings and what impact it has, but I fear short term fixes, if not done right, won't be good for the long term health of ESO.

A game I played and cherished for over 5 years made bad choices by putting too much stock into what the loudest complainers were saying and turned their game into a ghost town in a very short time. Learn from the mistakes (and successes) of your competitors, ESO. You've got a lot right here.

For as long as I can log in to the game and find fun/interesting/challenging things to do, I'll be here playing while the challenges get sorted out.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌

As someone who played Lotro for 4 and a half years, I totally agree with this.

I personally don't care. I played all the veteran content with a DW medium assassin NB, and had no real issues with any of it except for some few bosses. I'm not really the player who has 138961 alts and I can't see myself leveling again, at least not above 50. The difficulty on veteran content helped me become better and I think that's the point.

What I have to say, is that if they start nerfing content just 3 months after launch, the game is doomed. And no I'm not a doom & gloom crybaby.

ZoS if you wanna see your game become a f2p joke of a game with cash store and all, be my guest and keep following the mass opinion. But if you give a quick 30 minute look to your competitors (WoW,RIFT,LOTRO,SWTOR,GW2 wtc...) you will see that they all did the exact same mistake,and the games took a massive hit over time. Yet here we are, 2014 and new MMO's keep making the same mistakes...

Take care.