Veteran System Changes Preview

Hurbster

That's great, if people want super-hard forced group content then we have raids, dungeons and vet areas. It's just a shame we have to plough through the other factions areas via some contrived reason. I'd have preferred higher-level content that was unique to each faction. Still trying to find a reason for my EP character to lift a finger to help anyone from the Covenant seeing as the entire early portion of the game was them buggers invading us.

Darzil

SilverWF wrote: »

Am I need to post here again screenshot of my vr12 character with 12 days /played and with Tamriel Hero and Explorer titles?

No, well done you, I believe you without proof. I have less real time to get there, maybe but I will, with or without any changes to VR content. Three zones left.

Audigy

LonePirate wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

I honestly think removing group elements from an MMO is never a good idea in general, especially if you replace that group element in the open world with pointless dungeon grinding like Blizzard did and obviously ZO wants to do as well.

Sad news, again a vocal minority had a huge impact on an MMO.

You are mistaken if you think it was a vocal minority who was clamoring for these changes. It has been much more like a vocal majority, probably upwards of 75% of the players have requested the Veteran content's difficulty be toned down. The hardcore players who enjoyed the current Veteran content or wanted it to be even more difficult are the quiet minority here.

In fact, they are so quiet that requests for groups or help with quests in the upper VR zones are never answered. I can spend hours in the VR8-10 zones and never see another player. Where are all of these people who enjoy the Veteran content and why aren't they helping people? You simply cannot have (practically required) group content in a game when there are no players to group with, either due to low populations or players who refuse to help others. For the good of the game, ZOS had to act and I am glad they have. We all owe them a big thank you.

There are actually polls at this forum showing that about 65% are fine with the VR content.

The reason why VR zones are empty has zero to do with the difficulty, but the fact that you can exploit Craglorn and steamroll to VR 12. More rewards, more XP, faster leveling speed are the reasons

Besides that you forget that a lot of people are not yet at the higher VR zones, while VR 1-5 is full of people still.

There are many reasons for your observations, yet none of them is the difficulty.


Also what are you going to do once you are VR 12? Is there any type of hidden content that I am not aware of? I don't see any solo or small scale content for 2 or three players.
As soon people get to VR 12 they will run into a brick wall, either by not having solo content available or by the simple fact that Raids and Dungeons require many sacrifices from you. You will be forced to spec in a specific way, you will need to cut your RL short for Raid schedules and you must enter a boring grind where every dungeon and trial is the same for weeks and weeks to go.


You will soon miss the changing settings that current VR content offered, you will miss the freedom to play when and how you want and you will miss the chance you had to play with your husband or wife alone.

camelknightb16_ESO

Funny. I ran through Glenumbra's public dungeon (VR6 enemies) at VR5 with someone I met in there. The two of us cleared the dungeon with only a few deaths. It was only after exiting the dungeon I became aware the dungeon was actually a public dungeon.
In other words: I don't find VR content that much more difficult, though it might be because I'm a scorcerer.
Still, many others do think it's harder so I guess changing this is a good thing

Winnower

This makes me sad. Current level 1-50 has minimum difficulty as far as challenge is concerned.

And I enjoyed the encouragement to do more grouping at higher levels.

If I had wanted to make changes to the Veteran levels, it would have been to give more experience out to make it go faster (or require less experience to level), and to up the quality of the loot - make the default loots at veteran level blue, with more purples and golds thrown in as one goes through the 10 zones.

Ultimately the complaints I have heard *in game* have not been about the difficulty, or the grouping, but the sheer time it takes to level - unless of course you go grind in Craglorn.

Next we'll see nerfs to the difficulty of mobs in Craglorn. I've already seen people 4-manning the anomalies; how much easier can you make it?

Easy-mode is not equal to fun.

lpool96

[/quote]

The reason why VR zones are empty has zero to do with the difficulty, but the fact that you can exploit Craglorn and steamroll to VR 12. More rewards, more XP, faster leveling speed are the reasons

[/quote]

^^THIS!!

Audigy

They are going to do what most people do. They take the path of last resistance, stop playing, stop paying and spend their money elsewhere.

Zenimax is a business, that is not what they want. They want as many people to stay as possible. If they lose one hard core "I like the way this sucks" person to get two casual, I play an hour or two a night but still pay, players to stay...they will make that trade every minute of every day.

How do you explain then that WOW lost 6 million subs after the content was dumped down?
Shouldn't the game actually have won these 6 million?

Fact is, this isn't about hardcore at all - those who are hardcore will stick to ESO. They have Trials to prove their worth and I am sure ZO will offer more rankings soon for bragging rights.


Those however who suffer are the Casuals and non Raiders and those are a huge number in any MMO.

For them VR content is where they play and have fun, by removing it that content will no longer be viable for them, therefore they will leave.

This is what happened to WOW, after they removed the quest content numbers dropped big time and the same could happen to ESO if they don't add new content for VR 12 that is not based on Trials and Dungeons. This isn't witchcraft, its experience of 15 years in the business.

Don't me wrong, I put my face to the cheese grater that is VR zones and been VR12 for a month. Do I think the time it took to get there unreasonable? No. Do I think that the amount of damage I did to NPCs and mobs was unreasonable? No. Do I think the artificial difficulty of the mobs hitting like a truck and hanving so much penetration that it did not matter what armor you wore, you died in two or three hits if you did not dodge or heal was unreasonable? Absolutely, it is insane.

But why not fix that issue then? They could have changed the way how Chars and NPC´s behave, but instead they lower the difficulty to non VR mobs.

Make it difficult to go through VR content I agree with, but make that difficulty by making prlonged fights, to force people to start using the mechanics of battle to win. Be it interrupt, block, dodge, etc. I would love to see the NPC/Mob health increased, basic attack damage lowered to reasonable amounts, leave their power attack damage the same mac truck level it is, and damage done to knocked down or incapacitated NPC/mobs to be doubled.

I agree with that, but this isn't what ZO will do sadly. The mobs will soon die in one hit by the player, nobody will learn anything

Clearly ZeniMax has done their accounting and realized that they are loosing more customers because of the difficulty than they are retaining. They can see information you can't. They wont release this but I can guarantee that some bean counter looked at the number of cancelled subscriptions and saw that the highest level of characters averaged into the mid to low VR ranks and put one and one together.

But how will the counter look like with the nerf? How many people will leave due being bored at VR content? How many will leave because they don't like the raid or die philosophy that is surely coming soon?

As I said, WOW lost 6 million accounts by turning into a raid or die game without any challenging content for solo gamers and friends. ESO doesn't even have 12 million players but a few K. If they lose 50% now as well, then this is a much bigger problem than it was for Blizzard.

The forum is full of people who don't like the change, about 65% based on the polls. Losing them is going to hurt, also those who want it easy! As less people pay, as less content will be in the works and dungeon content is the easiest to make so this is how the future could look like if they nerf too much.

I always defended the game, but this is a very worrying issue and could lead to a massive loss of subs, subs from the average joe and not the hardcore gamer.

You dont want to be "grouped with baddies"? Petition for a "renown" system so to speak.

I never said that. I do not run around with a DPS meter or GS checking on everyone, that's not my style. I also don't leave a dungeon or a group if we wipe, for me its a natural procedure.

Sadly there are many who are not as tolerant as I am and they will be very rude to people who don't perform well. But the amount of bad performers will increase as people sadly never learned how to play once they reach the VR 12 content.
The massive amount of abuse and hate at WOW is a consequence of the removal from Elite quest zones. The average skill level was lowered and people with higher skill get annoyed by the "bad" players and therefore insult or harass them.

The same things can happen at ESO, not something I am looking forward to.

What I mean by that is after grouping an instance dungeon or trial, or grouping for anything. Give each player a renown notice and have them give each player they grouped with a 1 to 5 star rating and maybe a hidden note. Each player can only ever rate a person once, so if they group again they can change their number they assigned to them. Have it so you can read the note that you put about that person, but only visible to you when you look at their renown page. Then when other people invite them to group or they ask for an invite, other people could look and see what their average star rating is. That way the "good" and the "bad" can be sorted by their actual performance. Not some mythical better skill from leveling from supposedly harder content.

As I said, for me its not about bad or good. I don't mind having lesser skilled players around. We did raid at WOW with a mom who was a bit clumsy, yet we all loved her.

Its more about those who demand a lot of others, they will act up.

Such a renown system is indeed a good idea, but it would exclude those who are not so skilled even more. I don't like to exclude people, I think an MMO should be a journey for all and not just a selected few.

The Elitism will rise at ESO after the change, as you can already see at the forum where hardcore players are discrediting players who earned the hero of Tamriel after the change. This is just the start and the future doesn't look bright at all.

Tavore1138

LOL - serious mixed feelings having made it through all the vet areas with my stamina NB, with much death & cursing on the way. And although I solo'd all but a very few bosses it did force me to make a few in game buddies.

So part of me thinks if a novice MMO player can do it then many others could too, the other part thinks the long term viability of the game is well served by not putting off players less stubborn than me!

Any chance of an 'I did Cadwell's Gold while it was still crazy difficult' achievement?

Cogo

camelknightb16_ESO wrote: »

Funny. I ran through Glenumbra's public dungeon (VR6 enemies) at VR5 with someone I met in there. The two of us cleared the dungeon with only a few deaths. It was only after exiting the dungeon I became aware the dungeon was actually a public dungeon.
In other words: I don't find VR content that much more difficult, though it might be because I'm a scorcerer.
Still, many others do think it's harder so I guess changing this is a good thing

Exactly! This is what happens all over.

That vet 6+ is empty is natural....we have not got there yet.
It will be solved when people get vet 12. BUT if they lower the difficult and raise exp.....vet 12 will not have the skills to do the hard encounters!

I have and many others done just what you did. 2 people teams very nicely...in vet areas. and can do alot!

With much better phasing now, questing together is possible and all kinds of things.

I do understand Zenimax a bit. They are of course basing their data on gathered data. could be a month or 2 data. The quite BIG raise in grouping happending right now. just 1 month ago wasnt so big.

I HOPE, Zenimax is listening and might rethink a bit.

Solo people yes, exp goes slow. But ESO lets you decide. It is not the same as everyone WILL be able to do everything.

It is nice to help those who wants to solo. But there are other ways then ruin ESO and turn it to another game.

I Hope they change their mind.

ShADoW0s

Thank the Lord, was about time.

tino.antoninieb17_ESO

Audigy wrote: »

They are going to do what most people do. They take the path of last resistance, stop playing, stop paying and spend their money elsewhere.

Zenimax is a business, that is not what they want. They want as many people to stay as possible. If they lose one hard core "I like the way this sucks" person to get two casual, I play an hour or two a night but still pay, players to stay...they will make that trade every minute of every day.

How do you explain then that WOW lost 6 million subs after the content was dumped down?
Shouldn't the game actually have won these 6 million?

Fact is, this isn't about hardcore at all - those who are hardcore will stick to ESO. They have Trials to prove their worth and I am sure ZO will offer more rankings soon for bragging rights.


Those however who suffer are the Casuals and non Raiders and those are a huge number in any MMO.

For them VR content is where they play and have fun, by removing it that content will no longer be viable for them, therefore they will leave.

This is what happened to WOW, after they removed the quest content numbers dropped big time and the same could happen to ESO if they don't add new content for VR 12 that is not based on Trials and Dungeons. This isn't witchcraft, its experience of 15 years in the business.

Don't me wrong, I put my face to the cheese grater that is VR zones and been VR12 for a month. Do I think the time it took to get there unreasonable? No. Do I think that the amount of damage I did to NPCs and mobs was unreasonable? No. Do I think the artificial difficulty of the mobs hitting like a truck and hanving so much penetration that it did not matter what armor you wore, you died in two or three hits if you did not dodge or heal was unreasonable? Absolutely, it is insane.

But why not fix that issue then? They could have changed the way how Chars and NPC´s behave, but instead they lower the difficulty to non VR mobs.

Make it difficult to go through VR content I agree with, but make that difficulty by making prlonged fights, to force people to start using the mechanics of battle to win. Be it interrupt, block, dodge, etc. I would love to see the NPC/Mob health increased, basic attack damage lowered to reasonable amounts, leave their power attack damage the same mac truck level it is, and damage done to knocked down or incapacitated NPC/mobs to be doubled.

I agree with that, but this isn't what ZO will do sadly. The mobs will soon die in one hit by the player, nobody will learn anything

Clearly ZeniMax has done their accounting and realized that they are loosing more customers because of the difficulty than they are retaining. They can see information you can't. They wont release this but I can guarantee that some bean counter looked at the number of cancelled subscriptions and saw that the highest level of characters averaged into the mid to low VR ranks and put one and one together.

But how will the counter look like with the nerf? How many people will leave due being bored at VR content? How many will leave because they don't like the raid or die philosophy that is surely coming soon?

As I said, WOW lost 6 million accounts by turning into a raid or die game without any challenging content for solo gamers and friends. ESO doesn't even have 12 million players but a few K. If they lose 50% now as well, then this is a much bigger problem than it was for Blizzard.

The forum is full of people who don't like the change, about 65% based on the polls. Losing them is going to hurt, also those who want it easy! As less people pay, as less content will be in the works and dungeon content is the easiest to make so this is how the future could look like if they nerf too much.

I always defended the game, but this is a very worrying issue and could lead to a massive loss of subs, subs from the average joe and not the hardcore gamer.

You dont want to be "grouped with baddies"? Petition for a "renown" system so to speak.

I never said that. I do not run around with a DPS meter or GS checking on everyone, that's not my style. I also don't leave a dungeon or a group if we wipe, for me its a natural procedure.

Sadly there are many who are not as tolerant as I am and they will be very rude to people who don't perform well. But the amount of bad performers will increase as people sadly never learned how to play once they reach the VR 12 content.
The massive amount of abuse and hate at WOW is a consequence of the removal from Elite quest zones. The average skill level was lowered and people with higher skill get annoyed by the "bad" players and therefore insult or harass them.

The same things can happen at ESO, not something I am looking forward to.

What I mean by that is after grouping an instance dungeon or trial, or grouping for anything. Give each player a renown notice and have them give each player they grouped with a 1 to 5 star rating and maybe a hidden note. Each player can only ever rate a person once, so if they group again they can change their number they assigned to them. Have it so you can read the note that you put about that person, but only visible to you when you look at their renown page. Then when other people invite them to group or they ask for an invite, other people could look and see what their average star rating is. That way the "good" and the "bad" can be sorted by their actual performance. Not some mythical better skill from leveling from supposedly harder content.

As I said, for me its not about bad or good. I don't mind having lesser skilled players around. We did raid at WOW with a mom who was a bit clumsy, yet we all loved her.

Its more about those who demand a lot of others, they will act up.

Such a renown system is indeed a good idea, but it would exclude those who are not so skilled even more. I don't like to exclude people, I think an MMO should be a journey for all and not just a selected few.

The Elitism will rise at ESO after the change, as you can already see at the forum where hardcore players are discrediting players who earned the hero of Tamriel after the change. This is just the start and the future doesn't look bright at all.

Guys who like to play MMO end content ( dungeons raids and any kind of pvp ) are not morons . They just like to compete. Usually u can find MMO end content in MMO's. ESO is MMO and dont be surprised if u find "that" people in this game.
WOW is not bad game. Its good game. I like ESO better but i would like to have best of both worlds in one game and ESO has chance to be that.
Result of the polls u are taking as argument - are not reliable and i can provide u with couple reasons ( i will do that on your demand ).
I used to play WOW for years on very competitive level.
Never , ever in my life i looked down to someone who in that moment doesn't have skill needed for certain task. I never ever kicked that guy from my group and was staying there with him and dieing dozens and dozens of time till we finished it.
Spent hundreds of hours of my time to work with people on our skills and interaction. Competitive mmo gaming is team sport - there people support each other. You really dont know what u are doing when saying that people who compete in mmos are elitist. It same flaw in logic if i say for collectors that they are egocentric or for single player gamers that they are lacking social skills. Thats is just way to spend free time.
Putting down and disqualifying some group of people based on shallow analysis is elitist thing and basically you are doing that thing what u are accusing other people to do.

Syntse

Audigy wrote: »

Make it difficult to go through VR content I agree with, but make that difficulty by making prlonged fights, to force people to start using the mechanics of battle to win. Be it interrupt, block, dodge, etc. I would love to see the NPC/Mob health increased, basic attack damage lowered to reasonable amounts, leave their power attack damage the same mac truck level it is, and damage done to knocked down or incapacitated NPC/mobs to be doubled.

I agree with that, but this isn't what ZO will do sadly. The mobs will soon die in one hit by the player, nobody will learn anything

Don't think every encounter should be learning experience... If someone just wants to run the world picking flowers that person should not be afraid of every rabbit ahead, learning their tricks and countering them.

Neft the trash, up the bosses 10x make those challenge need to group etc. So I can yell help for quest this and that boss. I really do not understand why all enemy encounters need to be challenge and that you need to be right on your game to defeat them and then repeat to the mobs 100m away, thought the elites, champions, bosses are for that purpose.

sevcik.miroslaveb17_ESO

Hmm difficulty cut won't solve my problem with vet ranks.
But since it has no effect on me I am fine with this as it will make many other players happy and that is good for all of us.

Cogo

Catches_the_Sun wrote: »

I'm not one bit happy about these changes. You've gotta be kidding me. I guess the WoW crowd has won another round (big surprise, their numbers will always exceed everybody else). If I wanted a Singleplayer game, Skyrim is far superior to ESO in every way.

I actually think most player who want easier leveling is not aware what they are asking for. Sure...they have fun..level fast. get vet 12. fail at every encounter.

Totally remove any interest in Vet areas in other alliances.

The group problem I think is mostly only cause past years MMO players always had a tool that on automatic put everyone in a group. no hard at all. no talking. Done move on. All alts......

I HOPE!!!! That Zenimax look at grouping NOW. People ARE grouping in Vet 1-3 areas where the masses are. I understand higher vets, cause they have no one to play with....YET, but when people get there. Its solved.

And ESO right now!!! Have the magic effect that group in vet 1 zone, you dont get 1+1 in exp.you get much more. you can do more. public dungeons arnt a problem...few deaths...but you do it. phasing is loads better! It works

And people starting to see oh, I grouped and WOW got 30% exp in my level in 1.5 hour!!! Yes...thats what happens when you group up, you manage to do more.

This change is bad. very bad. Its so gamechanging that ESO changing path.
And this cant be the only "easy". more are coming.

ESO has the fantastic feature of being unique on the market. No matter what other people say. There is NO MMO like ESO, for many reasons.

One main is that you have to work for your exp, unless you have guides, or finds a good way to get fast exp.

Or like a guildie 2 night ago when Cyro started to work for those with good computers. not big fights, but 15-20 on each side...lots of people died. Quesst gives some exp, but the BIG exp in Cyro are from killing enemies. And in huge battles, like we had in early june and will have again, you get so much exp.

My guildie went from Vet 8.5 to vet 10 in 2-3 hours.
That was constant fighting, killing loads on each side.

From day one in ESO, I looked forward to every day in ESO. Today is the first time I am concerned. I do think long term so today the game is fine. short term..sure gains players...but they gain the player who wants easy...and they rarely stay.

I really believe Zenimax 5 years plan, their vision for Tamriel.
Just bad luck with Cyro, players being used to a group tool grouping them instead of asking...and it is july! Lowest pop month in ANY mmo.

Its not "destroyed" yet.....but once this easy mode starts rolling.....it wount stop.

I dont want ESO to be a memory in a few years or go FTP.
Never for a second though that, until now.

they heavy group who keeps sub to this game are those who wants what ESO is.
Changing ESO to....not ESO, but something easy....they will loose most who subs for years. Gain players who subs for a month....what about next month?

Zenimax, please reconsider. There are many ways to make people group...they are already! Also many other ways to help solo players, other then going the easy ruote.

Concerned player.

Enodoc

I ask this simply because I don't know (as I haven't got there yet): is Veteran content supposedly "too hard" because of mobs' health and attack damage being too high to cope with, or because of the inbalance between magicka and stamina builds? Would fixing the stamina balance alleviate the reported "difficulty" at all?

Regarding the Vet System changes in general, @ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌, are there any plans to remove the requirement of completing Cadwell's Silver to access the final alliance content? While I do still think there should be some requirement to get into it, so that it is a tangible reward for progress through the VRs, being allowed to go there either when you complete all those Cadwell quests or when you reach VR6 would increase the options players have when levelling through the Veteran content, and would allow people of the appropriate rank to quest and level there with friends even if they haven't completed all the earlier quests. (More on this here.)

Shaun98ca2

With them lowering the difficulty in the other VR factions, it allows them to pull focus away from the other factions for Veteran Rank leveling as that's a HUGE thing upsetting SOME people,

Just my thoughts.

gidianbatemanrwb17_ESO

When I look at these changes I get the feeling that Zenimax is trying to solve this issue the easy way... I DO NOT WANT TO DO ALL FACTION'S QUEST LINES WITH ONLY ONE CHARACTER!!! PLEASE UNDERSTAND THIS ZOS!!!! I want to have a reason to roll an alt, and there is no way I will roll an alt if I have to do the same content OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN (Note three 'OVER's for the three factions). Please ZOS try and find a way so that we don't have to do this!!

AngryNord

Crowzer wrote: »

VR didn't bother me so much but PLEASE dont add new ranks....

Uh, are there any online game (I refuse out of principle to Call ESO an MMO) that do NOT raise the Level limit when New content is added?

rsiloliveiraub17_ESO

I completly disagree with that, lol.

First weeks of the game people were complaining that it was a faceroll, everything was easy, you could solo dolmens, group dungeons, etc. Now they reach veteran content, which is a bit harder and they will decrease the difficulty?

First time I went to VR areas I couldn't kill a group of 2-3 mobs the way I killed before. Great!
I had to rework my character a bit, tweak my playstyle, change my equipment and after a while I was a much better player.

I had to learn to block more, dodge, pay attention to the AoEs and that's what made my character and me much better.

If you cant do veteran content (questing) solo is probably because you have a weak build. You can't just "oh I will put all in damage" and hope to kill everything easily.

---

Now what I think you should do is increase the xp/gold/loot gain in veteran areas in order to discourage people to just go Craglorn grind up to VR12.

Cogo

Mortosk wrote: »

Catches_the_Sun wrote: »

I'm not one bit happy about these changes. You've gotta be kidding me. I guess the WoW crowd has won another round (big surprise, their numbers will always exceed everybody else). If I wanted a Singleplayer game, Skyrim is far superior to ESO in every way.

Leveling content shouldn't be so difficult. There's plenty of challenging group dungeon encounters you can take part it if you choose. This is the only MMO I've ever played where you get your arse kicked constantly just trying to reach the level cap. And, it's also the longest grind I've ever experienced getting to level cap in any game since Everquest.

This is true that ESO is one of the few that even comes close to WORK for you experience in combat.

I never grinded a single second. And I do fine

These changes worries me about ESO future.

ESO have still an amazing 1-50, but the 2 days its gonna take to get to V12, with people who have no clue what so ever about hard encounters, are going to cry.

1. They leave. no money for Zeni
2. Zeni make easy. The players who cant play are happy for 1 month. then cry that they are bored and goes back to Wildstar....where they also cry because they find it to hard to have to AIM when you fire a weapon.

Look at the MMOs who are still in business.

What MMO of any size is an EASY one, except WoW?

Eve. PRobebly one of the hardcore toughest survival of the fittest MMOs today. MAYBE dayz will compete.

Rift is still, even as a game that is not nearly as "good" as several others....lots of people go back there. Know why? Its HARD!

There is a risk going a niche way. Elder scrolls is a big brand and can afford to take that risk. However, their plan everything, busienssmodel. YES, they are a company....but I wonder if they actuallyl realize making a game easy. short term...money. few month those money are gone....along with the long term players who sticks around for bugs, not working, no content, etc, because its a good game. And not easy mode.

I dont know how big the group is who been waiting for a game that, as you say, have some what challenging model LIKE EQ or even AO had.....

ESO is the first one in many years

I think if just people where not so dependant on the group tool to group....this would not been needed.

Also...Cryo is a big setback for them. If it worked like it did. I also think, this post would not excist

henryabelarwb17_ESO

When will new vet levels be introduced? And can we please have a rough guidline on when they will be added, as I am about to make my armour all legendary and it would be such a waste to use it for only a couple of days (and damn expensive too)

eliisra

I have already taken both a Templar and a Sorcerer through VR6-12 content. It's not crazy hard if you use appropriate skills and build (and have decent irl gaming equipment).

Still happy they're looking into the level of difficulty, because it's very inconsistent in veteran zones. I always felt casual solo questing should be pretty face roll anyway. While higher difficulty should be found in raids or dungeons.

Wouldn't hurt to make some world bosses and all dolmens a little bit easier and more suitable for small groups. Also think normal VR quests should reward more exp.

Only one thing worries me. Could this be a way of avoiding to to deal with the biggest issue of them all: mediocre performance, skills and weapon swap being delayed or not responding, lag spikes, bugged out enemies etc. Because I'm guessing it's easier to tone down the mobs as a quick solution, than making in-game combat smooth. Hope I'm wrong.

Anastasia

Darzil wrote: »

I'd mainly like to see a nerf of the high spell/armour penetration that monsters seem to have in VR zones (but not Cyrodiil/Craglorn), which makes avoiding being hit crucial, and armour irrelevant. Without that builds not relying on heavy CC become possible. I'd also like to see solo only quests allow others to help.

For me the main issue with almost all the game content is that group stuff is too easy, and veteran levels are a lottery solo, but trivial grouped.

Regardless of how I feel about challenge (I usually like it, though there have been a handful of VR bosses, normally CC immune or Wispmothers, that have been particularly painful solo), what has been no fun at all has been the lack of people at high VR in the zones. I can play for several hours and see no one, and only 4-5 others commenting in chat. Whenever you do get a group for doing world bosses or dolmen, easy at VR2-3, at VR7 everyone says how they've been trying to get people for days, and tries to keep the group together to do more stuff.

(full disclaimer, I'm a VR7 Bow Nightblade currently doing VR7 content, haven't been to Craglorn or joined any vp grind groups. I'm a gimp due to spending far too many points on crafting, and I'm still progressing. None of my guildies who reached VR1 are still playing, but then most of them liked stamina builds.)

It's possible that if skills were balanced, monsters were balanced, different builds were viable, and combat wasn't so buggy that the VR difficulty would be absolutely fine. I can see that an overall tweak is much easier than all that though, and making the content playable for the masses is probably a way not to lose the game before balancing is complete.

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Very cool observation Darzil -- and that which many vet players have indeed brought to the attention of ZOS, and which is at least part of the reason you are seeing some come into the threads about this Vet + area 'adjustment' as opposed to it. Some would like to see the OTHER points addressed first and THEN see how it will certainly affect content in what currently feels to some is 'too hard.'

Zeni hasn't revealed that they are fixing enemy armor penetration stats, haven't finished balancing work they are doing on base-classes or the stamina issues/roll-dodge-interrupt ratio, adjusting loot rewards, nor inserting more interesting lore to at least explain/give reason for loyalty or etc while we do the other two faction areas in PvE Vet+ content for what is considered the 'too hard' areas though right now.

What they are doing is working on making things 'more comfortable' so it won't be too hard instead, starting Monday.

(*) Let us hope the other player-supported and suggested ideas for Vet+ content somehow make it higher up on the priority list soon as well. (*) And most especially that attention is continued to be directed at the lag issues so many are talking about AND the outright scuzzy cheating continuing to occur in PvP.

justin.sniesakub17_ESO

Yah this is complete horse dung. Really not happy their nerfing this. Don't tell me to go run a dungeon for difficulty. I duo and like challenging content we can do at our pace. Love how the wow whiners have succeeded in dumbing down another game. I forgot risk vs reward is an evil concept nowadays.

Retrohelix23

Although I have managed to go right through the game with my NB and defeat even the "impossible" bosses, many of them were extremely frustrating and left me in a semi enraged state. Despite this I am glad that it was so challenging as it gave me a great sense of achievement once I found a way to defeat them. What I was disappointed in, was the lack of in game reward other than a small box in your achievement list which shows you defeated some creature, as well as a hero title. I don't think they should just make it easier for solo areas, I think they should allow difficulty to be selected before entering certain instances. Then they can offer different rewards based on the difficulty. I do feel for the ones finding themselves unable to get past certain area's and bosses but at the same time I feel for those who managed to beat the game after going through the same pain. So I think a little extra reward should be given to those to show that achievement .

Danisheraser

Argh!! *** this! The difficulty is what made veteran levels worth doing. *** I am pissed off!


[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Flaming]

Anastasia

Crowzer wrote: »

VR didn't bother me so much but PLEASE dont add new ranks....

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*Giggles outright -- Oh Crowzer, they will, OF COURSE THEY WILL."

justin.sniesakub17_ESO

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO wrote: »

This sounds like restoring the VR levels to around what they were before 1.1.2. It sounds like a wise decision as long as the phasing problem persists.
I only wish the game would let us "phase in" with other players, such that if anyone in the group has not done a particular quest, you end up being able to pick it up as a group, but with less rewards for group members who have already done it. But I guess that is something we need to put on the long term wish list.
I think this was a good move. Thank you.

If we're talking 1.1.2 that I don't have an issue with. The way this reads smells like a giant nerf.

Anastasia

Cogo wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hi everyone,

One of the topics we frequently get feedback on is ESO’s Veteran content. Some of you may have seen our recent comments about changes we have in store for ESO’s post-50 experience. We want you to know we’ve been listening to your suggestions and concerns, but more importantly, we want to tell you what we’re doing about them. Today, we have an update from the ESO Dev Team to share with you.

Some of the concerns you’ve called out are: Veteran content is too much of a departure from the level 1 to 50 experience, playing and leveling through it is too much of a grind, and that the rewards you get don’t match the effort you have to put in to progress.

One of the guiding principles of our Veteran gameplay was to encourage you (not force you) to group. We wanted you to be able to reach max level by playing solo if you wished, but still encourage you to group with others along the way. This principle was the reason we made our post-50 zones more difficult; we wanted you to get together with others to take on tougher challenges and form social bonds while you did so. But we understand that, despite our vision, this is not how all our players want to experience the game beyond level 50.

We recognize that many of you love the game you played while leveling up, and that you feel the post-50 zones are too much of a departure from that experience. We hear your requests to continue participating in solo content as you progress through Veteran Ranks, and we’re acting on that feedback.

Starting next week on Monday, July 7th, you’ll see the first significant change we’re making to the Veteran System. We’re implementing some balance changes to content in post-50 zones that will make it much more like the content from levels 1-50. Our goal is to remove the feeling of “I have just hit a wall of difficulty” that many of you have expressed—you’ll be able to solo much more easily. This is just the first of many large-scale changes coming to ESO’s Veteran System, and we encourage you to watch our QuakeCon panel on Friday, July 17th, where we’ll go into much more detail about the other parts.

Thank you for sticking with us, sharing your concerns, and supporting a game we all love.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Hi!

More options and additions to choose from at vet areas is great!
BUT!
I hope these changes will not remove the current overall nature of mobs and events, which are good as they are! Vet 1 - Vet 6. Because there is a greater concern then only these changes for long-term-players.

I am VERY sorry for a long post. I kindly ask Zenimax to read my feedback.
I do not "demand" any reply, but this is a question IF ESO is changing into another type of MMO with some goals more important then others?
Which IS very important to understand correctly.

My post is NOT to be confused with ANY additions, changes, features, improvements. announced or not. ALL kinds are VERY WELCOMED, even EXPECTED! Which we know happens every 4-6 weeks ish.

We want and LOVE playing ESO, NOT another MMO!

* Changing and evolving ESO is needed and offered, but to change a CORE feature and by doing so, changing ESO into another type of game, where you REMOVE "earning" your exp and to experience different builds, only aimed at high end game, hard encounters? (By fast leveling)

This is not a criticism, but an important question about the changes, which will most likely effect further changes.

I included grouping.
Grouping works, and keeps growing. My post explains why.

I very much hope I have misunderstood these changes.

Please note: This post ONLY applies to Vet 1-6 areas, dungeons and all events PvE wise in all 3 alliances vet areas. Higher Vet, Graglorn, PvP, Cyro is NOT included in my post, because my concern does not effect those areas.


My concern and Main question
A Zenimax reply to correct of my impression that these changes are NOT changing ESO into another type of MMO, where challenge and choices are replaced with easy, fast level, decreased interaction, less grouping outside of dungeons, raids and other events that are made for groups.
And the focus to have a wide area of player types has not changed to only suits players who wants fast highest level, lowering the impact of player skill and personal progression. Making the "correct build" and best gear, much more important then personal choice and style.

* Should not High end hard encounters be one of many important goals in ESO? When you reach vet12, should you not be, sorry, good enough for the very challenging encounter?

I am worried if most can just level fast...then of course a lot will fail in the HARDEST encounters. What is the next step? Make that easier too? Then easier again?



Explanation of my concern with these changes and where they lead.

I am concerned that if ESO gets too easy, it becomes very "boring" quickly.
Even for players who wants easy, will be bored after a while, unless there is new easy stuff. It does not sound like ESO anymore.

This is my concern as a long-term-player.


In the short term, making things easy, might make some players happy, but in the long term, ESO looses its unique value, just like other MMOs who tries to copy WoW.

This does not make ESO "better" or "worse".
IT does change the value of a long term game and makes it into a short term game. Where only new content to highest level, Hardest current encounter will have any value to play long term. Unless that gets easy too....

For the long term player, ESO have a GREAT REPLY VALUE. Even starting in the same alliance! Because of the added content thats on the roadmap. Making a new char will be a new experience!

ESO gets easy at vet level
By making the current world easier, will make Vet 1-6 areas into only "grinding exp", "collecting skyshards/skillpoints" and getting achievements. Very soon, this will remove any interest at all to try new builds and PLAY them.


Question:
If leveling is made easier for all (not just those who already figured it out?)
When all players reach highest level. Tries the hardest encounters and fails, over and over, because it takes practice, teamwork, understanding of what to do when in different situations, to beat a dungeon. We learn that from very early levels in the instanced dungeons.

* Will the hardest encounters get easier too?

ESO is fantastic regarding tactics in dungeons. You can watch as many videos as you want. Know everything about the encounter. And still fail.

Your skill, teamwork, utilizing all that ESO have to offer, THAT beats the hard encounters. Execution matters, Not only your level....

As a next step, What else will get easy? And after that?

You do not have to wait for high lvl to "raid". You get it from start with instanced dungeons! Including pretty much what a high end raid needs. Good group, teamwork, tactics and utilize all you can, to beat the boss. Next boss, different tactics. Its amazing!

With the easy road....this part might not even be used. Players gets level to fast?


Vet areas to hard?
Will not the incoming addition of some skill/ability/whatnot to vet players, give us vets more choices and getting the edge SOME vet feels when playing?

As well as tier gear pieces seams to drop a lot, its not to hard to get a decent tier set. Helps more then one think.

* Is making "mobs" easier, more exp, a good way to get a player up to the hard encounters, if said player have problems in vet 1-3?

* ESO have a fantastic feature. Personal skill does make as big impact as a powerful skill.. Please do not take that away.

On EU server, in Vet 1-3 zones, I hear a lot of things in zone chat, weird, strange even, asking for groups or assistance with events are common, questions where is a quest, along with sales.
I also talk to a lot of people I do not know. (I cant help it)
What I do not hear, is complaints about mobs are to hard.

Just because I don't hear it, is of course only 1 feedback from a lot.


Veteran areas and events
When I got vet 1, and started to exploring the areas, it did get harder, but I learned, adapted and having a fantastic experience because I need to play even more to do things. This helped me advancing my personal skill to take on harder encounters. I had to look at all possible skills and anything available to improvise in this new veteran world. I got better!

It DID take time, but just like starting ESO, had to learn new things. So the game is not over at lvl 50, a new area begins!

I progressed my own player skill!!

* Is it not what veteran players should do? If defeated, veterans have the experience to know when to back off, bring a friend, use a different tactic, skills, weapons, etc.

* Why remove this?

In ESO, like other MMOs with hard encounters, it does take time, practice, failures, good groups, bad groups, to get to that "elite" level, with a team who can beat these encounters.

Players who speed trough, simply do not get that experience.
Dont take my word for it. Plenty proof of that in any game where leveling is easy.

The "jump" from lvl 50 to vet 1, is very good!
* You almost feel like its a new game. You have to improve!
* You learn a lot you did not think you could do. You learn when soloing how different skills, builds, tactics etc is effective against different encounters.

* When you get vet 1, you REALLY get a "Veteran" advancement, where you keep advancing your personal skill, and not just stop at 50. This is an AMAZING feature I have not seen lately in any MMO.

The "skill" that you can not pick in the game at vet areas, is the experience you get in your personal skill. You level yourself!


Solo vet 1-6 areas (2 other alliances)
It is very doable to solo at Vet 1-6 areas, but you DO have to adapt.
It IS harder alone, but doable. You are now a veteran! It did take me a while to progress my own skill as well as picking new skills to use and how to use them.

I am still keep getting better and I still loose battles.
Just as promised in Zenimax Information about Vet areas.

All encounters in Tamriel can be dangerous.
Getting defeated in veteran area, alone, wanting to solo. Yes, it will be harder, but not nearly impossible. Slow, yes. By choice.

* If you get as much exp soloing as you do grouping, is that not a HUGE step from getting people to grouping up?

Just by grouping with 1 person, you can do a lot more and get not double exp but a lot more since you are 2.

Yes, it doesn't go very fast to kill 1 mob by one. But should it? Quests are fine. Dolmen events and bosses encounters are huge exp. With the mechanics in ESO, you do not need to group with anyone. Just be at the events, do your part and get lots of exp.

* Are there not more solo targeted quests/something coming for vet players?

* I dont understand how the solution to make Vet area mobs easy, will make anything other then demands for more easy, even more easy. Which leads to less personal skill cause of less practice. In my case anyway.

* Zenimax might already be working on this, but Solo main quest type might be a better solution? More exp there, but at the same time interesting, fun, and hard encounters, which can be anything just like the storylines? Solve riddles or anything new fun content for soloing?

* More solo content sure! But are Zenimax changing ESO to an easier game for everyone so player who solo gets more exp?


Fast leveling?

* When is "fast leveling" an issue in ESO? If there is, how did those at Vet 12 get there?
* Some players are Vet 8-12. Not many though but that's just natural?
* Is there any problem with level fast? Some players get Vet 12 in 2-3 weeks? No matter my personal view on that. If some players can, and some can not. Why should the game change and not the player figure out how?
* Are there not players complaining about leveling to fast?

* If you choose to level fast, should you not at least have to figure out how? And sorry, if you level fast, don't use skills much, HOW is the solution to lower the mobs? Will not this only lead to more easy? then more?

* What about the group of players who wants a hard encounter? The rare items that is announced?

* Cyrodiil and exp.
Cyrodiil gives massive exp, even at vet levels. But how you want to play is a core of ESO, and if you do not wish to pvp, you dont have too.
But for fast exp......

Could the complaints for more exp, be because we have not had a working Cyrodiil for a while?
I am sure, Cyro will work. And the big large group battles starts again. Will not this fast exp make the "slow" leveling a none problem with the current game?


Grouping
* It is not only natural that Vet6-12, are not full of players. ESO really gives a challenge when it comes to being a skilled player who can do the hard encounters like trials and raids. Some players are naturally good. Yes,
But in ESO is does take time, practice, failures, good groups, bad groups, to get to that "elite" level, with a team who can beat these encounters.

* When more and more reaches vet 12, will not the grouping at higher level get solved, just like it starting to get now at vet 1-3?

* Is making "mobs" easier, more exp, a good way to get a player up to the hard encounters, if said player have problems in vet 1-3?

I am sure that fast levelers early in game, had a lot of problems with bugs, etc.
Most Vet 1-3 have very few problems. Phasing is much better. Sure, a quest here and there or a broken skill. Normal bugs that are expected in MMOs.

On EU server, the vet 1-3 are crowded. Zonechat goes out all the time for grouping for all kinds of things. Not just dungeons. Even heard looking for someone to grind exp with.

Grouping with just 1 friend/player makes Vet 1-6 areas much easier to do many things. It is still a challenge but 1+1 = 3 in power! More players realize this and are seeking groups, even without the group tool.

Interaction in EU group Vet 1-3 zones is FAR better now then just a month ago.

I love exploring. While I run around, getting killed, I see more and more "groups" of 2 or more people going together somewhere. Grouping is building up. Maybe not much, but it is growing.

I think, MMO players the past years simply been too dependent on a group tool, to put them in a group. This is starting to change!

Check zone chat logs for EU server.
Vet 1-3 areas: "Looking to group for questing and leveling", is a fairly new, but there is growing interaction by Zone chat alone, who have made players finds new friends, possible new guild members. I have!

This is an addition to "Dolmen X is up!" Looking for group for Dungeon X", which is more and more common. Helping someone? Its starting to be common even!

The problem to get groups
MORE players are starting to interact in several ways and not just depend on a group tool/game mechanic to do it for them. The tool is important though, but wasn't the "problem" been phasing, lvl 1-50 is very much solo if you wish?

More players starting to see how good and FUN it is to group up.

This is growing!
This is today ALMOST unique to ESO.
Other MMOs are built with tools to not have to say a single word to anyone, completely removing interaction.


Effect of the difference in lvl 50 mobs and vet1-6 mobs
I also became a better player! Not at once, but after I adapted and learned to use weapon swap MUCH better then I thought I would be. At vet 1, I learned to use weapon swap in a fight. Something I did not think I could master. Now I can, and improve!

I progressed my own player skill!!

In Vet 1 - 6 zones, (note, not talking about Graglorn or any other Vet 6+ encounters!) I learned to utilize different NEW skills I did not have before, understand them better and it improved my playing experience in ESO A LOT!

Grouping with just 1 friend/player makes Vet 1-6 areas much easier to do many things. It is still a challenge but 1+1 = 3 in power! Few other MMO Offers this!

The current Vet areas also have the side effect already to group up with other players, even without using the group tool.
Interaction is FAR better in ESO then any other MMO, who only depends on a group tool.

Check zone chat logs for EU server.
Vet 1-3 areas: "Looking to group for questing and leveling", is a fairly new, but growing question between players and creating even more interaction by Zone chat alone. Players finds new friends, possible new guild members.

This is an addition to "Dolmen X is up!" Looking for group for Dungeon X", which is more and more common. VERY few MMOs today have this kind of interaction.

MORE players are starting to interact in several ways and not just depend on a group tool/game mechanic to do it for them (which is of course needed as an option, as well).


When I got vet 1. with the current system, created almost a new game!

Exploring the world will still be there, but if its easy and not dangerous, then it removes the explore experience as well.

To make Vet 1-6 areas too easy, will make ESO boring, after you experienced Lvl 1-50 for the FIRST time.
Instead of having to improve, you get the same....kill alot, why group?


Please ADD these features WITHOUT taking away one of the main unique features ESO offers, by keeping Tamriel a dangerous, changing, never know what will happen, type of world.

This is my concern as a long-term-player.
In the short term, making EVERYTHING (not all) easy, might make some players happy, but in the long term, ESO looses its unique value, just like other MMOs who tries to copy WoW.

This does not make ESO "better" or "worse".
IT does change the value of a long term game and makes it into a short term game. Where only new content to highest level, Hardest current encounter will have any value to play long term. Unless that gets easy too....

Zenimax never promised Tamriel to be hard in any way. (what I know).
Right now, you do look over your shoulder all the time when you play. That is very ESO. Please do not take this away.

Concerned, long term player

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Well thought out, clear and important post Cogo, thanks!

I'm sorry though if you think the devs/staff of any MMO will actually give any definitive answer which would ALSO affect subscriptions for the part of the population which is consterned about any particular pending change or activated change. PR-speak will attempt to smooth ruffled feathers, that is regular business practice.

It is the literal changes and actions viewed over these coming weeks which will give all of us the answer. I highly doubt it will be difficult to figure out or use as a basis for determining where one wants to commit their recreational hours and coin going forward.

Ragefist

Oh boy. Im glad I did it before difficulty was ruined.

Any chance to set increased challenge for oldschool players like me? You know the kind that remembers games so difficult that you couldnt actually finish them

Because if you had people complaining about it being boring grind before... you are just serving them a mealdeal