Dear ZOS - veteran levels are killing ESO. Please wake up to this.

Iceman_mat

bean19 wrote: »

My problem with Veteran leveling:

- The combat is significantly harder and thus I feel like I'm limited in how I build my character. Everything has to be about surviving a fight with 3 normal mobs and bosses that are effected by CC. If a boss isn't effected by CC, then I can't kill it on Veteran solo, so forget about it. What I love about ESO combat pre-Veteran is all the choices I get to make. I often change up my build just for fun - to try new things out. . . but I can't do this in Veteran.

- Like the previous parts of the game, dungeons are only worth running once for the skill point. You get terrible xp in dungeons and the veteran gear starts at Vet 5 so no one does them more than once. Also, to be honest, even if they matched your level with the gear, I wouldn't run them often because gear isn't that important in ESO compared to other MMOs and absent progression it isn't worth trying to get slightly better gear while leveling. I'll do that at max level when tiny boosts of power from gear are the only thing left for character progression, but they don't matter now. While leveling pre-Veteran, I often go 5-6 levels before worrying about updating my gear. . . this makes dungeon loot far less appealing.

- There really isn't any reward for it. You get access to some better gear, but it's marginally better. Gear scales up so slowly in this game and the difficulty of veteran mobs is far, far above it. So the reward is a booby-prize.

You are bad. Simple.

Veteran boss fight? moflow I gotta worry about 3 mob groups every fight. EVERY FIGHT. All of them. Every single 3 mob fight I have to worry about if I am going to need to go to a wayshrine. It use to be 2 but I got better at crafting and a summon. It's called adapting, try it. Also I believe Vets asked for a harder game so yea. Irony

You are only suppose to run a dungeon once, Doing it more then once is for gear and exp (lower levels) which i'm guessing you did since your VR. Sorry if I don't feel sorry for the "OMG My Grind strat stopped working in a non-grind but quest based game". Here's an Idea, help other people, level crafting, [snip].

You are suppose to level slower in VR. It's a VETERAN RANK, you are a VETERAN

vet·er·an
ˈvetərən,ˈvetrən/
noun
noun: veteran; plural noun: veterans

a person who has had long experience in a particular field.

PASS THAT EXPERIENCE ALONG TO OTHER PLAYERS or [snip].

Please pass this along to other Veterans
-Cheers

Edit: Any other Veterans who complain like this, save some time and apply this to you as well.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

kieso

EQ was a garbage grind of a game; I played that game on release and people here are looking back with rose colored glasses. That game was horrible and repetitive, all you did was go to your respective zone find a group sitting in one spot "camping" and killing the same spawn of mobs for hours on end; tell me how that's fun. This new gen of MMO's has done tremendous progression towards fun and engagement; so to my fellow old timers who played EQ.. [snip]..just [snip]..

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

NerfEverything

mods should have closed this thread a long time ago

Fleymark

kieso wrote: »

EQ was a garbage grind of a game; I played that game on release and people here are looking back with rose colored glasses. That game was horrible and repetitive, all you did was go to your respective zone find a group sitting in one spot "camping" and killing the same spawn of mobs for hours on end; tell me how that's fun. This new gen of MMO's has done tremendous progression towards fun and engagement; so to my fellow old timers who played EQ.. [snip]..just [snip]..

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

You must have been one of the whiners who couldn't hack playing a game with real risk and reward. I remember the type from the official boards back then, all vent out of shape because they were told, point blank by the staff that, yes, the game was designed with social interaction in mind...If you don't make the effort or have the social skills to bring a group or join a guild there will be entire areas and large amounts of content you will not see or experience. I did not care for the staff back then but, boy, having a game where the staff actually said "this game was designed for this specific challenge and may not be for you" would be super refreshing in today's gaming. Instead of trying to please everyone all the time, some game might actually try to be fun through challenge and overcoming obstacles not eliminate ing them. I'm convinced that this is why this current generation of gamer is so preoccupied with "spoiler alerts." I guess when there is no real challenge, story is all that's left.

EQ was an easy game, really, when you consider that practically nothing in that game couldn't be overcome by simply bringing more people. This is a problem for this new breed of gamers because all it requires are social skills/not having a bad reputation and an attention span and a modicum of time commitment but these are the things these people seem particularly challenged with.

I have a hard time understanding how running here to collect x then run there to collect y then run here to turn it in to z to get a sliver of exp then turn around and repeat ad nauseum mostly solo for 50 levels, times 3 for 50 levels plus 10 vet ranks is somehow engaging and entertaining while buckling down in a good camp with difficult content enjoying your defined class role and making friends and having a social experience in the process labeled "a grind" as if the former isn't. I've been gaming in multiple games for well over a decade with friends I met in pick-up groups in EQ. Of the dozen or so people who've made their way onto my friends list here in the monthish I've been playing I can only remember how I even know two of them. You really don't need friends or guilds in these new games, except at key points when you do, which is a really sad state for mmos, IMO. No, MMOs shouldn't be single player games but with other people around for chat and commerce. It should be more than that, IMO.

You can call it whatever you want, but when you got to top level in EQ you felt like you actually accomplished something. Because you did. Or any level, really. Now you just blow thru content and go on forums to complain that end game is either too hard or isn't. Either way that's what mmo gaming is now, apparently. You get everything handed to you just for logging in and you complain the while time.

I played on release and continued for about 8 years with breaks to sample new games here and there. I still go back once a year to live to see what's new and at least twice a year I play on a classic emu that had become quite popular amongst old EQ vets. Partly because of nostalgia but mainly because to a lot of us it's still the gold standard. EQ is in its 15th year and is still popular amongst a significant portion of gamers, surprisingly young ones at that, I've found. No other game can touch that. WoW might in a few years, but for other reasons.

So, while people like you are quick to criticize what they didn't like about EQ, the fact that it has retained immense popularity for 15 years gets overlooked. Maybe EW just sucks and those of us who loved it and still do are just crazy gluttons for punishment. Or, maybe, EQ got it right and the reason it endures as it has is because it is the antithesis of what gamers like you want to play. Maybe when developers start looking at what has worked in games that have lasted more than ten minutes and stop listening to the instant gratification crowd we will have another game that lasts because it's actually worth playing day to day, not because it's the new thing or has a story you want to experience but little else to offer.

ViciousMink

My two GP:

You have to make a choice. If you want to race your way to cap, go ahead -- you're allowed to do that and nobody can tell you 'you're doing it wrong.' But at some point you're going to have done everything that you're interested in doing in a game. We learned this the hard way with STO: Players will chew through content a lot faster than devs will produce it. At some point you'll hit level cap, 'endgame' content, and the like; the question is, when do you hit that point, and when do you WANT to hit that point?

Some people loathe 'grinding' quests. (Really? Going through the questlines is 'grinding' now? Back in MY day, 'grinding' was hammering on crabs for four or five hours for 200XP each, you weren't getting any gil or gear drops, and you weren't getting any crafting mats at the same time, either. Grinding for XP, grinding for gil, grinding for gear, and grinding for mats were all different activities. You wanted to do storylines? That's another thing that you don't do while grinding for XP. Sorry, rant over.) That's fine; that's your preference. It baffles me, but who am I to tell you you're playing it wrong? Me, I loathe just going somewhere to 'grind' mobs for hours, XP gain or not. And there are people who like a mix of both.

No game is going to appeal to everyone equally. Some games are better at one style of gameplay than another. For me, so far, I'm liking the progression in ESO. I'm comfortable with it. I like running the quests, I'm okay with not being at level cap yet. It's not a five-star meal, but no MMO is going to be that. There are things I wish were different or 'better' for me, but one thing I've picked up from reading this thread: What I want to change would 'OMG RUIIIIIN' the game for someone else, and what would make me reconsider my subscription is making some people say 'This Must Be Done Or Else!' Praraphrasing, of course. ESO has problems, but this particular one, about VR ranks and progression, is going to be very subjective -- much more than bots, spammers, content drought, horizontal vs. vertical progression, etc.


One final thing: We're going to have to accept that F2P is the future of MMOs. Publishers love that model because it means a bigger profit margin for them, even though it means less quality for players. There's no real two ways about it; it is the destiny or fate of any and all MMOs that they will fall into some variation of that model at some point. And to the people who resist that idea because they feel an F2P game's community is toxic... you haven't been in ANY of the zone chats in ESO lately, have you? 'Toxic' is here and has been here since the first toon named 'TrollFacedKilla' started talking in the Barrens zone chat in WoW and a subscription fee was no barrier to that.

Sakiri

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO wrote: »

At least when I played WoW the world actually felt explorable.

I have done every dominon quest.

I doubt that I have done every alliance or horde quest in WoW. I guess idk I just felt ESO would be more explore promoted.

<loremaster.

Sakiri

Fleymark wrote: »

hk11 wrote: »

daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »

Could you imagine if this board was for EQ?

The levels are TOO HARD!! It takes months (months!) to reach max level cap---that's crazy--everyone wants to be end game within 3 weeks, tops!

Sony--you don't have a CLUE! Don't you see naked corpse runs are KILLING the game! Everyone's leaving!!!

And--losing XP with death???? Are you insane--Everquest is a game, it's not supposed to be difficult!

This game won't last a year!

At the time, EQ didnt have a lot of competition. I know it stole my soul for a few years, but if it released today I probably wouldn't play it.

Not that it has anything to do with this discussion, but I've said for years that we need another EQ. As in the original. With true class interdependence and no ability to solo anything but tradeskils, real death penalties complete with exp loss and corpse runs, and rewarding itimization where you have to earn good gear but your toon noticably improves once you do. It doesn't even have to be grindy like EQ but make it impossible to advance solo. And give classes specialization to the point that they have complete mastery of and ownership of specific roles.

I would absolutely play. With bells on. Because it would be a refreshing change of pace from any game released in the past decade. People constantly parrot the same advice to every question: "Make friends or join a guild.". Why? Except for a handful of circumstances you barely NEED a group in this game and the only thing you really NEED a guild for is trading. Great to have, of course, but not required at all. And that, IMO, is a sad state if affairs for mmos in general. But how is it a surprise to anyone that it doesn't occur to people to group or guild when they don't have to when they usually don't have to? And how ie anyone ever expected to understand that certain classes/builds will excell at certain things roles over others when every game, including, this one tells them that every player, at all times, should be able to do everything every other can? Especially when that kind of balance is impossible to achieve and never really has in any game despite the promises made by developers.

People reflexively recoil from things like class interdependence, not being able to solo, and true risk versus reward because there hasn't been a game that's had that in over a decade, but if you consider that true class balance is impossible to achieve, going for specialized classes in an environment of class interdependence really makes more sense than what all these games have been trying to do of late...Trying to be all things to all players at all times with every class and build when such a thing is next to impossible to actually achieve.

Sadly, I don't think such a game would ever get made in our current era. I can hear the crying about not being able to solo now.

It wouldnt be made because it wouldnt have a market.

Most players cant spend all day in game, and even in eq2, where you *could* solo, but you were encouraged to group(ca. 2005-2006) I felt compelled toroll bard, enchanter, shaman cleric or druid so I could get groups. Both sorcerers, rogues, assassins(wiz, warlock, brigand, swashbuckler, assassin, ranger) and to a lesser degree summoners(conj, necro) were just interchangeable. Dime a dozen.

People dont want to spend most of theit limited game time lfg.

Back when eq came out, there was no other real competition. It was dominated by high school and college kids. My ex bf lost his computer by court order because hed skip school to play eq. Phone calls at 4 am to beat the asians to a raid boss.

No thanks. Personal opinion ofc.

Guppet

Fleymark wrote: »

hk11 wrote: »

daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »

Could you imagine if this board was for EQ?

The levels are TOO HARD!! It takes months (months!) to reach max level cap---that's crazy--everyone wants to be end game within 3 weeks, tops!

Sony--you don't have a CLUE! Don't you see naked corpse runs are KILLING the game! Everyone's leaving!!!

And--losing XP with death???? Are you insane--Everquest is a game, it's not supposed to be difficult!

This game won't last a year!

At the time, EQ didnt have a lot of competition. I know it stole my soul for a few years, but if it released today I probably wouldn't play it.

Not that it has anything to do with this discussion, but I've said for years that we need another EQ. As in the original. With true class interdependence and no ability to solo anything but tradeskils, real death penalties complete with exp loss and corpse runs, and rewarding itimization where you have to earn good gear but your toon noticably improves once you do. It doesn't even have to be grindy like EQ but make it impossible to advance solo. And give classes specialization to the point that they have complete mastery of and ownership of specific roles.

I would absolutely play. With bells on. Because it would be a refreshing change of pace from any game released in the past decade. People constantly parrot the same advice to every question: "Make friends or join a guild.". Why? Except for a handful of circumstances you barely NEED a group in this game and the only thing you really NEED a guild for is trading. Great to have, of course, but not required at all. And that, IMO, is a sad state if affairs for mmos in general. But how is it a surprise to anyone that it doesn't occur to people to group or guild when they don't have to when they usually don't have to? And how ie anyone ever expected to understand that certain classes/builds will excell at certain things roles over others when every game, including, this one tells them that every player, at all times, should be able to do everything every other can? Especially when that kind of balance is impossible to achieve and never really has in any game despite the promises made by developers.

People reflexively recoil from things like class interdependence, not being able to solo, and true risk versus reward because there hasn't been a game that's had that in over a decade, but if you consider that true class balance is impossible to achieve, going for specialized classes in an environment of class interdependence really makes more sense than what all these games have been trying to do of late...Trying to be all things to all players at all times with every class and build when such a thing is next to impossible to actually achieve.

Sadly, I don't think such a game would ever get made in our current era. I can hear the crying about not being able to solo now.

No current developer would create that though, as the potential player base would be so tiny, that they would never get back their investment.

Companies are not ran to be charities for the benefit of players.

WoW happened, get over it. Now developers want to make mainstream money or their plugs get pulled.

There will never ever be a pure hardcore game. You may as well sit at home waiting for your magic unicorn to pick you up and take you on a magical mystery tour.

EQ was over a decade ago, time moves on, it seems some players dont though.

Sakiri

kieso wrote: »

EQ was a garbage grind of a game; I played that game on release and people here are looking back with rose colored glasses. That game was horrible and repetitive, all you did was go to your respective zone find a group sitting in one spot "camping" and killing the same spawn of mobs for hours on end; tell me how that's fun. This new gen of MMO's has done tremendous progression towards fun and engagement; so to my fellow old timers who played EQ.. [snip]..just [snip]..

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

People arent reminiscing about the content but rather the community and friendship. Thats it.

No clique? No progression.

NerfEverything

I think it is funny everyone keeps saying that no studio will make another EQ because no one would play it, but then every other MMORPG it criticized for not being enough like EQ.

WoW broke MMORPGs. It is evident on these forums, with posts like these complaining about the game being too hard, or taking too long to level. People throwing around the word "grind" with no clue what it actually means.

EverQuest: Next is in development. It is nothing like the original EQ. They are trying to change the way MMORPGs work. They are trying to fix what WoW broke. Traditional questing and vertical progression is gone. The is no "end-game" content. It is hard to describe, but I recommend watching some videos to get a better idea of the crazy stuff they are doing.

dr_zed

"Xp gained is too slow" How cute, this must be your first mmo. In other games you need a year to get to max level.

Of course if you brainlessly build your character you will suck. Any build can work IF you excecute it correctly. I laugh at vr mobs, I can even solo public dungeons (Torch plus) and I'm a Nightblade for christ sake!

It's all about more thinking and less whinning. You can't expect to distribute your points randomly and be as good as someone who actually build his character strategically.

Fleymark

Guppet wrote: »

Fleymark wrote: »

hk11 wrote: »

daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »

Could you imagine if this board was for EQ?

The levels are TOO HARD!! It takes months (months!) to reach max level cap---that's crazy--everyone wants to be end game within 3 weeks, tops!

Sony--you don't have a CLUE! Don't you see naked corpse runs are KILLING the game! Everyone's leaving!!!

And--losing XP with death???? Are you insane--Everquest is a game, it's not supposed to be difficult!

This game won't last a year!

At the time, EQ didnt have a lot of competition. I know it stole my soul for a few years, but if it released today I probably wouldn't play it.

Not that it has anything to do with this discussion, but I've said for years that we need another EQ. As in the original. With true class interdependence and no ability to solo anything but tradeskils, real death penalties complete with exp loss and corpse runs, and rewarding itimization where you have to earn good gear but your toon noticably improves once you do. It doesn't even have to be grindy like EQ but make it impossible to advance solo. And give classes specialization to the point that they have complete mastery of and ownership of specific roles.

I would absolutely play. With bells on. Because it would be a refreshing change of pace from any game released in the past decade. People constantly parrot the same advice to every question: "Make friends or join a guild.". Why? Except for a handful of circumstances you barely NEED a group in this game and the only thing you really NEED a guild for is trading. Great to have, of course, but not required at all. And that, IMO, is a sad state if affairs for mmos in general. But how is it a surprise to anyone that it doesn't occur to people to group or guild when they don't have to when they usually don't have to? And how ie anyone ever expected to understand that certain classes/builds will excell at certain things roles over others when every game, including, this one tells them that every player, at all times, should be able to do everything every other can? Especially when that kind of balance is impossible to achieve and never really has in any game despite the promises made by developers.

People reflexively recoil from things like class interdependence, not being able to solo, and true risk versus reward because there hasn't been a game that's had that in over a decade, but if you consider that true class balance is impossible to achieve, going for specialized classes in an environment of class interdependence really makes more sense than what all these games have been trying to do of late...Trying to be all things to all players at all times with every class and build when such a thing is next to impossible to actually achieve.

Sadly, I don't think such a game would ever get made in our current era. I can hear the crying about not being able to solo now.

No current developer would create that though, as the potential player base would be so tiny, that they would never get back their investment.

Companies are not ran to be charities for the benefit of players.

WoW happened, get over it. Now developers want to make mainstream money or their plugs get pulled.

There will never ever be a pure hardcore game. You may as well sit at home waiting for your magic unicorn to pick you up and take you on a magical mystery tour.

EQ was over a decade ago, time moves on, it seems some players dont though.

Actually, there are several coming down the pike that are exactly as I described.To what extent is to be seen. No surprise one is from the original designer of EQ, and the other that of DAoC.

WoW was a decade ago. It's looking like we are now, finally, getting past the point where publishers don't think they have to substantially compete with the McDonalds of MMOs or they have failed since, trying to do so, has brought nothing but failure to games that have tried. We've seen it repeatedly over the past decade and has not worked once. Now we are back to niche games being developed thankfully. This game is, as is Wildstar, Archage, and I hope the trend continues and developers get even bolder with trying new things.

In short, you are dead wrong. Wow is only the standard for its particular niche, which would be lowest common denominator appealing to the masses. But not only does every game not have to be that way, those that try can't compete with wow. Also, since a decade ago, gaming has surpassed every other entertainment medium, including motion pictures. The market has never been so large or diverse. To say a game fails because it doesn't compete with wow directly is as ridiculous as saying that Ruth's Chris has failed as a restaurant chain because it doesn't directly compete with McDonalds.

Guppet

NerfEverything wrote: »

I think it is funny everyone keeps saying that no studio will make another EQ because no one would play it, but then every other MMORPG it criticized for not being enough like EQ.

WoW broke MMORPGs. It is evident on these forums, with posts like these complaining about the game being too hard, or taking too long to level. People throwing around the word "grind" with no clue what it actually means.

EverQuest: Next is in development. It is nothing like the original EQ. They are trying to change the way MMORPGs work. They are trying to fix what WoW broke. Traditional questing and vertical progression is gone. The is no "end-game" content. It is hard to describe, but I recommend watching some videos to get a better idea of the crazy stuff they are doing.

EQN is using new ideas, that's good for the genre.

WoW did not break MMO's, what a stupid statement. It's like saying MacDonalds broke food.

They produced a product that was phenomenally sucessfull. It may not be your cup of tea, but it was for far more people than anything that had ever gone before or came since.

Now read that paragraph above and say if I'm talking about WOW or MacDonalds. They are both the same.

jimdove

Haven wrote: »

Not to derail the thread. But how would you guys do veteran ranks if you could choose? Like. What would you do different? [Note this is a honest question.]

none, once at top level let us "grind for gear in dungeons etc.. PVP is the end game, as it stands if you are VR1 you have little chance vs vr10 players, its not like a lvl40 fighting a lvl 50 since the time it takes to close the gap is about 10x. Now its vr12.

there needs to be a decent dungeon ah *** it Just like the VR quests (yeah we get it, this game is quests, but 500+ quests, really, REALLY? and you think grinding mobs is dull? going from a to b killing at c then back to a with some small usually boring story is NOT what I call questing.

LariahHunding

Dublicious wrote: »

My two cents:

2) If you're dying all the time you're doing it wrong. So far vet is really not that much more difficult than 1-50. Cold harbor is still the hardest zone I've played and I'm more than half way through the pact. That may change but I don't see it happening unless difficulty jumps out of nowhere.

Spoken like a true DK. I call BS on this.

AzureButterfly

I think there's a fundamental disconnect in the way VR levels are designed compared to the rest of the game. For most of the game, you can go around doing pretty much whatever you want without worrying about enemies. As others have said, VR ranked mobs are so hard to fight, you end up having to switch your build around to something that can take them. Eventually everyone is using the same few builds to get through VR levels and the diversity you see in earlier levels is almost gone. In addition, it's really hard to explore in some VR parts because there's a solid wall of ubermobs in the way. Case in point - I'm in VR6 Stonefalls and the stupid spider/goblin army at the farm constantly destroys me when I'm just passing through the area. I've lost so many soul gems trying to sneak through that bit only for a sneaky spider to come up and bite me to death.

In all honesty, I'd rather not level up by doing other faction's zones. I'd like to PvP, but the current setup requires you to be VR 12 to be competitive.

kieso

Fleymark wrote: »

kieso wrote: »

EQ was a garbage grind of a game; I played that game on release and people here are looking back with rose colored glasses. That game was horrible and repetitive, all you did was go to your respective zone find a group sitting in one spot "camping" and killing the same spawn of mobs for hours on end; tell me how that's fun. This new gen of MMO's has done tremendous progression towards fun and engagement; so to my fellow old timers who played EQ.. [snip]..just [snip]..

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

You must have been one of the whiners who couldn't hack playing a game with real risk and reward. I remember the type from the official boards back then, all vent out of shape because they were told, point blank by the staff that, yes, the game was designed with social interaction in mind...If you don't make the effort or have the social skills to bring a group or join a guild there will be entire areas and large amounts of content you will not see or experience. I did not care for the staff back then but, boy, having a game where the staff actually said "this game was designed for this specific challenge and may not be for you" would be super refreshing in today's gaming. Instead of trying to please everyone all the time, some game might actually try to be fun through challenge and overcoming obstacles not eliminate ing them. I'm convinced that this is why this current generation of gamer is so preoccupied with "spoiler alerts." I guess when there is no real challenge, story is all that's left.

EQ was an easy game, really, when you consider that practically nothing in that game couldn't be overcome by simply bringing more people. This is a problem for this new breed of gamers because all it requires are social skills/not having a bad reputation and an attention span and a modicum of time commitment but these are the things these people seem particularly challenged with.

I have a hard time understanding how running here to collect x then run there to collect y then run here to turn it in to z to get a sliver of exp then turn around and repeat ad nauseum mostly solo for 50 levels, times 3 for 50 levels plus 10 vet ranks is somehow engaging and entertaining while buckling down in a good camp with difficult content enjoying your defined class role and making friends and having a social experience in the process labeled "a grind" as if the former isn't. I've been gaming in multiple games for well over a decade with friends I met in pick-up groups in EQ. Of the dozen or so people who've made their way onto my friends list here in the monthish I've been playing I can only remember how I even know two of them. You really don't need friends or guilds in these new games, except at key points when you do, which is a really sad state for mmos, IMO. No, MMOs shouldn't be single player games but with other people around for chat and commerce. It should be more than that, IMO.

You can call it whatever you want, but when you got to top level in EQ you felt like you actually accomplished something. Because you did. Or any level, really. Now you just blow thru content and go on forums to complain that end game is either too hard or isn't. Either way that's what mmo gaming is now, apparently. You get everything handed to you just for logging in and you complain the while time.

I played on release and continued for about 8 years with breaks to sample new games here and there. I still go back once a year to live to see what's new and at least twice a year I play on a classic emu that had become quite popular amongst old EQ vets. Partly because of nostalgia but mainly because to a lot of us it's still the gold standard. EQ is in its 15th year and is still popular amongst a significant portion of gamers, surprisingly young ones at that, I've found. No other game can touch that. WoW might in a few years, but for other reasons.

So, while people like you are quick to criticize what they didn't like about EQ, the fact that it has retained immense popularity for 15 years gets overlooked. Maybe EW just sucks and those of us who loved it and still do are just crazy gluttons for punishment. Or, maybe, EQ got it right and the reason it endures as it has is because it is the antithesis of what gamers like you want to play. Maybe when developers start looking at what has worked in games that have lasted more than ten minutes and stop listening to the instant gratification crowd we will have another game that lasts because it's actually worth playing day to day, not because it's the new thing or has a story you want to experience but little else to offer.

What a joke it didn't maintain much popularity once competition joined in the fray. Also I didn't say this games VR content was good in fact it is a poorly designed grind but sitting around in EQ was just if not worse as mind numbingly boring, also sitting around waiting for spawn while chatting with your new internet friends is a pathetic excuse for poor game design and "community". Most of my in game friendships were due to PVP by either finding a tough opponent to fight or finding friends to fight along side with where we clicked by the gameplay given to us from the game itself. Not sitting around waiting for a spawnpoint to spawn talking about our favorite cheese and throwing out "lols"..yeah some community, pathetic. No one follows that sad design anymore for a reason. let that sink in.

ViciousMink

Guppet wrote: »

It's like saying MacDonalds broke food.

Well, I don't know about you, but....

acortner_ESO

The game should "End" at 50. Veteran Ranks should be extra...like for completionists, achievement-hunters or people who REALLY like their toon and don't want to make an alt.

Moiskormoimi

steveb16_ESO46 wrote: »

gunsofdeschain wrote: »

Need another game to sink my worthless life into.

Keep an eye on ArcheAge then. While the story in no way compares with ESO as an adventure, it does have an open charm and a relaxed pace.

As well as skill bars that swap reliably.

And personal gliders. They are epic.

But like I say - ESO is a much better adventure experience.

ArcheAge is for people who both want more epic PvP AND want to spend hours crafting their first fishing rod.

Someone in my ESO guild had mentioned that and I didn't really give it a whole lot of thought. Then I started watching some Twitch streams and now, I'm actually excited about the game. I'm really curious to see how the 'class' system works. That sounds very dynamic if executed correctly. Also, they seem to really do reward you for exploring and I'm definitely interested in their justice system. While I've been a fan of TES games for a long time, I'm pretty 'meh' about the mmo direction. It could have been so much more. I hope that it does end up that way in time.

Akalukz

I bought the game to PVP... can't PVP when sub VRXX bleh. End game should be PVP not more grinding for those that hate grinding.

Fleymark

kieso wrote: »

Fleymark wrote: »

kieso wrote: »

EQ was a garbage grind of a game; I played that game on release and people here are looking back with rose colored glasses. That game was horrible and repetitive, all you did was go to your respective zone find a group sitting in one spot "camping" and killing the same spawn of mobs for hours on end; tell me how that's fun. This new gen of MMO's has done tremendous progression towards fun and engagement; so to my fellow old timers who played EQ.. [snip]..just [snip]..

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

You must have been one of the whiners who couldn't hack playing a game with real risk and reward. I remember the type from the official boards back then, all vent out of shape because they were told, point blank by the staff that, yes, the game was designed with social interaction in mind...If you don't make the effort or have the social skills to bring a group or join a guild there will be entire areas and large amounts of content you will not see or experience. I did not care for the staff back then but, boy, having a game where the staff actually said "this game was designed for this specific challenge and may not be for you" would be super refreshing in today's gaming. Instead of trying to please everyone all the time, some game might actually try to be fun through challenge and overcoming obstacles not eliminate ing them. I'm convinced that this is why this current generation of gamer is so preoccupied with "spoiler alerts." I guess when there is no real challenge, story is all that's left.

EQ was an easy game, really, when you consider that practically nothing in that game couldn't be overcome by simply bringing more people. This is a problem for this new breed of gamers because all it requires are social skills/not having a bad reputation and an attention span and a modicum of time commitment but these are the things these people seem particularly challenged with.

I have a hard time understanding how running here to collect x then run there to collect y then run here to turn it in to z to get a sliver of exp then turn around and repeat ad nauseum mostly solo for 50 levels, times 3 for 50 levels plus 10 vet ranks is somehow engaging and entertaining while buckling down in a good camp with difficult content enjoying your defined class role and making friends and having a social experience in the process labeled "a grind" as if the former isn't. I've been gaming in multiple games for well over a decade with friends I met in pick-up groups in EQ. Of the dozen or so people who've made their way onto my friends list here in the monthish I've been playing I can only remember how I even know two of them. You really don't need friends or guilds in these new games, except at key points when you do, which is a really sad state for mmos, IMO. No, MMOs shouldn't be single player games but with other people around for chat and commerce. It should be more than that, IMO.

You can call it whatever you want, but when you got to top level in EQ you felt like you actually accomplished something. Because you did. Or any level, really. Now you just blow thru content and go on forums to complain that end game is either too hard or isn't. Either way that's what mmo gaming is now, apparently. You get everything handed to you just for logging in and you complain the while time.

I played on release and continued for about 8 years with breaks to sample new games here and there. I still go back once a year to live to see what's new and at least twice a year I play on a classic emu that had become quite popular amongst old EQ vets. Partly because of nostalgia but mainly because to a lot of us it's still the gold standard. EQ is in its 15th year and is still popular amongst a significant portion of gamers, surprisingly young ones at that, I've found. No other game can touch that. WoW might in a few years, but for other reasons.

So, while people like you are quick to criticize what they didn't like about EQ, the fact that it has retained immense popularity for 15 years gets overlooked. Maybe EW just sucks and those of us who loved it and still do are just crazy gluttons for punishment. Or, maybe, EQ got it right and the reason it endures as it has is because it is the antithesis of what gamers like you want to play. Maybe when developers start looking at what has worked in games that have lasted more than ten minutes and stop listening to the instant gratification crowd we will have another game that lasts because it's actually worth playing day to day, not because it's the new thing or has a story you want to experience but little else to offer.

What a joke it didn't maintain much popularity once competition joined in the fray. Also I didn't say this games VR content was good in fact it is a poorly designed grind but sitting around in EQ was just if not worse as mind numbingly boring, also sitting around waiting for spawn while chatting with your new internet friends is a pathetic excuse for poor game design and "community". Most of my in game friendships were due to PVP by either finding a tough opponent to fight or finding friends to fight along side with where we clicked by the gameplay given to us from the game itself. Not sitting around waiting for a spawnpoint to spawn talking about our favorite cheese and throwing out "lols"..yeah some community, pathetic. No one follows that sad design anymore for a reason. let that sink in.

You played on a PvP server? Then that's about all we need to know, then. LOL While I did enjoy my time on one of the zeks one summer and I did meet some great players, EQ is a game not designed for PvP and generally had a poor implementation of it, simultaneously attracting the worst elements in gaming, frankly.

Actually, EQ is as successful as any game to date. Nothing touched it until WoW and even that only put a dent in subscription numbers, which arguably had more to do with wow release coinciding with the least popular EQ expansion that drove off more people than other games actually attracted. No other game even represented credible competition to EQ before WoW, not even its own sequel. I loved DAoC and remember when it was going to be the "EQ killer." Never even came close nor did any others that were called that over the years.

Like any successful game, EQ hit its peak then enjoyed a steady and stable decline as any game will over time. Wow is currently at about half of its peak subscription numbers as it approaches the ten year mark. That's where EQ was at the same point. In neither case has competition represented any real threat to either game. Meanwhile, other games have come and gone, entirely shutting down their servers.

You are talking about apples and oranges.

Sakiri

Fleymark wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

Fleymark wrote: »

hk11 wrote: »

daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »

Could you imagine if this board was for EQ?

The levels are TOO HARD!! It takes months (months!) to reach max level cap---that's crazy--everyone wants to be end game within 3 weeks, tops!

Sony--you don't have a CLUE! Don't you see naked corpse runs are KILLING the game! Everyone's leaving!!!

And--losing XP with death???? Are you insane--Everquest is a game, it's not supposed to be difficult!

This game won't last a year!

At the time, EQ didnt have a lot of competition. I know it stole my soul for a few years, but if it released today I probably wouldn't play it.

Not that it has anything to do with this discussion, but I've said for years that we need another EQ. As in the original. With true class interdependence and no ability to solo anything but tradeskils, real death penalties complete with exp loss and corpse runs, and rewarding itimization where you have to earn good gear but your toon noticably improves once you do. It doesn't even have to be grindy like EQ but make it impossible to advance solo. And give classes specialization to the point that they have complete mastery of and ownership of specific roles.

I would absolutely play. With bells on. Because it would be a refreshing change of pace from any game released in the past decade. People constantly parrot the same advice to every question: "Make friends or join a guild.". Why? Except for a handful of circumstances you barely NEED a group in this game and the only thing you really NEED a guild for is trading. Great to have, of course, but not required at all. And that, IMO, is a sad state if affairs for mmos in general. But how is it a surprise to anyone that it doesn't occur to people to group or guild when they don't have to when they usually don't have to? And how ie anyone ever expected to understand that certain classes/builds will excell at certain things roles over others when every game, including, this one tells them that every player, at all times, should be able to do everything every other can? Especially when that kind of balance is impossible to achieve and never really has in any game despite the promises made by developers.

People reflexively recoil from things like class interdependence, not being able to solo, and true risk versus reward because there hasn't been a game that's had that in over a decade, but if you consider that true class balance is impossible to achieve, going for specialized classes in an environment of class interdependence really makes more sense than what all these games have been trying to do of late...Trying to be all things to all players at all times with every class and build when such a thing is next to impossible to actually achieve.

Sadly, I don't think such a game would ever get made in our current era. I can hear the crying about not being able to solo now.

No current developer would create that though, as the potential player base would be so tiny, that they would never get back their investment.

Companies are not ran to be charities for the benefit of players.

WoW happened, get over it. Now developers want to make mainstream money or their plugs get pulled.

There will never ever be a pure hardcore game. You may as well sit at home waiting for your magic unicorn to pick you up and take you on a magical mystery tour.

EQ was over a decade ago, time moves on, it seems some players dont though.

Actually, there are several coming down the pike that are exactly as I described.To what extent is to be seen. No surprise one is from the original designer of EQ, and the other that of DAoC.

WoW was a decade ago. It's looking like we are now, finally, getting past the point where publishers don't think they have to substantially compete with the McDonalds of MMOs or they have failed since, trying to do so, has brought nothing but failure to games that have tried. We've seen it repeatedly over the past decade and has not worked once. Now we are back to niche games being developed thankfully. This game is, as is Wildstar, Archage, and I hope the trend continues and developers get even bolder with trying new things.

In short, you are dead wrong. Wow is only the standard for its particular niche, which would be lowest common denominator appealing to the masses. But not only does every game not have to be that way, those that try can't compete with wow. Also, since a decade ago, gaming has surpassed every other entertainment medium, including motion pictures. The market has never been so large or diverse. To say a game fails because it doesn't compete with wow directly is as ridiculous as saying that Ruth's Chris has failed as a restaurant chain because it doesn't directly compete with McDonalds.

You mean McQuaid is trying again? Youd think hed learned after Vanguard. Both of his other games ended up in the hands of SOE because he couldnt keep them funded.

Sakiri

Akalukz wrote: »

I bought the game to PVP... can't PVP when sub VRXX bleh. End game should be PVP not more grinding for those that hate grinding.

Many of us couldnt give a lick less about pvp.

Guppet

Fleymark wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

Fleymark wrote: »

hk11 wrote: »

daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »

Could you imagine if this board was for EQ?

The levels are TOO HARD!! It takes months (months!) to reach max level cap---that's crazy--everyone wants to be end game within 3 weeks, tops!

Sony--you don't have a CLUE! Don't you see naked corpse runs are KILLING the game! Everyone's leaving!!!

And--losing XP with death???? Are you insane--Everquest is a game, it's not supposed to be difficult!

This game won't last a year!

At the time, EQ didnt have a lot of competition. I know it stole my soul for a few years, but if it released today I probably wouldn't play it.

Not that it has anything to do with this discussion, but I've said for years that we need another EQ. As in the original. With true class interdependence and no ability to solo anything but tradeskils, real death penalties complete with exp loss and corpse runs, and rewarding itimization where you have to earn good gear but your toon noticably improves once you do. It doesn't even have to be grindy like EQ but make it impossible to advance solo. And give classes specialization to the point that they have complete mastery of and ownership of specific roles.

I would absolutely play. With bells on. Because it would be a refreshing change of pace from any game released in the past decade. People constantly parrot the same advice to every question: "Make friends or join a guild.". Why? Except for a handful of circumstances you barely NEED a group in this game and the only thing you really NEED a guild for is trading. Great to have, of course, but not required at all. And that, IMO, is a sad state if affairs for mmos in general. But how is it a surprise to anyone that it doesn't occur to people to group or guild when they don't have to when they usually don't have to? And how ie anyone ever expected to understand that certain classes/builds will excell at certain things roles over others when every game, including, this one tells them that every player, at all times, should be able to do everything every other can? Especially when that kind of balance is impossible to achieve and never really has in any game despite the promises made by developers.

People reflexively recoil from things like class interdependence, not being able to solo, and true risk versus reward because there hasn't been a game that's had that in over a decade, but if you consider that true class balance is impossible to achieve, going for specialized classes in an environment of class interdependence really makes more sense than what all these games have been trying to do of late...Trying to be all things to all players at all times with every class and build when such a thing is next to impossible to actually achieve.

Sadly, I don't think such a game would ever get made in our current era. I can hear the crying about not being able to solo now.

No current developer would create that though, as the potential player base would be so tiny, that they would never get back their investment.

Companies are not ran to be charities for the benefit of players.

WoW happened, get over it. Now developers want to make mainstream money or their plugs get pulled.

There will never ever be a pure hardcore game. You may as well sit at home waiting for your magic unicorn to pick you up and take you on a magical mystery tour.

EQ was over a decade ago, time moves on, it seems some players dont though.

Actually, there are several coming down the pike that are exactly as I described.To what extent is to be seen. No surprise one is from the original designer of EQ, and the other that of DAoC.

WoW was a decade ago. It's looking like we are now, finally, getting past the point where publishers don't think they have to substantially compete with the McDonalds of MMOs or they have failed since, trying to do so, has brought nothing but failure to games that have tried. We've seen it repeatedly over the past decade and has not worked once. Now we are back to niche games being developed thankfully. This game is, as is Wildstar, Archage, and I hope the trend continues and developers get even bolder with trying new things.

In short, you are dead wrong. Wow is only the standard for its particular niche, which would be lowest common denominator appealing to the masses. But not only does every game not have to be that way, those that try can't compete with wow. Also, since a decade ago, gaming has surpassed every other entertainment medium, including motion pictures. The market has never been so large or diverse. To say a game fails because it doesn't compete with wow directly is as ridiculous as saying that Ruth's Chris has failed as a restaurant chain because it doesn't directly compete with McDonalds.

I think the forum notifications are broke, I didn't even get notified that you replied to me, sorry.

Wild star is interesting, it seems that it now the destination of the majority of the MMO players in my guild.

The guild I'm in has been about since Ultima online, so we have a lot of players that have been in MMO's fir over a decade.

Most have unfortunately moved there from ESO, we have like 20% of the players left in ESO. It's quite sad.

With Wild Star, they are all intrigued by the 40 man raids and 40 man PVP, most are wondering if they can justify committing to 40 man raids again, as most are now married, many with kids and surprisingly all with jobs (I did a series of polls just around Christmas, to see current demographics).

It will be interesting to see how WildStar does.

Personally I can't commit that much time again, so I kind of hope it fails and that they all came back here, lol.

Ragnar_Lodbrok

I happen to like vet levels for endgame. Its so mething I can actually take part in rather than be shut out by the power raiding crowd. I hope the crybabies that want wow 2.0 dont turn it into a raid progression game, Id quit.

Jimm_ay

I think the complaint is - You go through 1-50 and your vr is what? doing the AD 1-50 quest but they are ranked vr1-10 ? I appreciate end game content and the thought of it when a lot of mmos never thought past it....it just feels a bit of a let down. I mean I enjoy the AD story line..but after the end game to 50 I thought there would be "other daedric Princes" not "play the other land stories now" But honestly there is a ton to do post 50, you seem to get a vr level per land (auridon etc) so meh why not do the quests.

Fleymark

He is, indeed. I'm not sure why you would call it "trying" though. He's more than established his credentials as one of the most successful MMO designers the genre has seen yet, if not the most successful.

Sony acquired EQ before release because games need publishers. 989/Verant developed and was left in complete autonomy over it for the first several expansions until Sony realized the potential for revenue from the genre and started pushing it in directions that were not necessarily good for the game. McQuade and the original team left to form a new company to start work on Vanguard. Many say this was the turning point for the game, many, myself included say it came much later. Both, in fairness, are legitimate arguments. But in either case, the game has endured and has enjoyed a steady but slow decline with age and is one of the very few MMOs that van say that after 15 years.

Vanguard suffered from a disasterous release stemming from an administrative change at Microsoft about 8-12 weeks before release. This administrative change brought with it an across the board cut in all non console projects. It was no reflection on the quality of vanguard but kicked it in the knee nontheless. So st the critical time when the lead designer and heart and soul of the game should have been polishing content he, instead, was scrambling to find VC money and a new publisher just to keep the game alive. The whole thing was a complete cluster F that he had very little control over.

So yes, Brad McQuade is developing a new title. I'm not a fan of every design decision he has ever made, by a long shot, but the guy is really good at what he does, arguably the best. To say that he's "trying again" in condescending fashion like that is really pretty obnoxious. Especially considering we are playing a game helmed by a dev that helped run DAoC into the ground with key BAD design decisions and here we are wondering why it's happening in this game.

Speaking of which, the new Mark Jacobs game is the one I'm most excited about, personally.

fyrefenix

i dub this game, the elder mages online! -featuring archers * LOL no veteran melee for you *

fyrefenix

mean while when two veteran 4 beetles are too much for a nerfed templar tank to handle