Dear ZOS - veteran levels are killing ESO. Please wake up to this.

Reenlister

@Gaudrath. I not be so sure that yer right on that. The problem does not lie in the not liking the Vet ranks, it lies in that people don't wanna be in the other zones a doin the basic quest, I must confess, I be one. I was under the impression, like a many it would seem, that the explore the other factions would have meant to go as my faction, and have a line there for me as a Vet, not a simple dump me in there like nothing that has been done has been done.
Now I wont say that some wont be happy no matter what, but the whole of the dumping Vets in the other zones under the cover of we be out to see what its like to live on the other side is really akin to being lame.
Especially this here thing of me having to help the enemy out as I go. If I wanted to be helping out the AD I would be AD.
I be pretty sure they didn't set it up the way they did because people said they didn't want to be a new character to experience the other lands, I am pretty sure people said it would be great to be able to see the other lands, so they, the creators almighty took a quick way on it.

PhoenixWing

Is it only me that I don't feel like it's a grind at all? I was alternating between questing and PvP, and before I know it I was VR4 already while I was still in the second zone of 2nd alliance (which is meant to be played with VR2).

Maybe because I was playing with a friend all the time. I guess everyone who say he is bored might be doing it solo, is that right? If that is so, I think we may see the problem more clearly.

Reenlister

PhoenixWing wrote: »

Maybe because I was playing with a friend all the time. I guess everyone who say he is bored might be doing it solo, is that right? If that is so, I think we may see the problem more clearly.

Nay, I don't think we be seeing it more clearly. I be in the world there a lot with my friend. I just don't be having fun all the time. Running the basic quest lines is still running the basic quest lines be ye alone or chatting it up with yer friend.
I do agree, its not a grind per say, but it sure do not hold me attention in the V zones a doing the things I do like it did in the lower ones.
Fer me, its still the idea of running this stuff in the other lands is just a quick add of things to do till we get some more stuff out and about...

PhoenixWing

Reenlister wrote: »

PhoenixWing wrote: »

Maybe because I was playing with a friend all the time. I guess everyone who say he is bored might be doing it solo, is that right? If that is so, I think we may see the problem more clearly.

Nay, I don't think we be seeing it more clearly. I be in the world there a lot with my friend. I just don't be having fun all the time. Running the basic quest lines is still running the basic quest lines be ye alone or chatting it up with yer friend.
I do agree, its not a grind per say, but it sure do not hold me attention in the V zones a doing the things I do like it did in the lower ones.
Fer me, its still the idea of running this stuff in the other lands is just a quick add of things to do till we get some more stuff out and about...

I mean I literally quest with my friend, fighting monsters/world bosses and stuffs . We deter our progresses so we can play together all the time. If I am not free, my friend will go to Cyrodiil and play there, so the quest progress will still be the same, and I will try to catch up his VP/AP when he is not available. That is how we managed to do that.

Anyway, now I just use my skillpoints on not so useful but interesting skills and watch them grow. That is a sense of progression along with VR ranks I have now lol.

Korah_Eaglecry

Sociabear wrote: »

I am glad it takes time. No one remember trying to level in EQ or Daoc ..
MMO's are a time sink , I'm glad a game has brought that back finally. Group up with friends , grind and just relax and have fun. If you don't have any gaming bros, form a group do the same thing. How do you think old school mmos had such a tight community? Because they spent hours playing together chatting about whatever just relaxing and having fun. I've been playing with the same guys for going on 8 years...

So in summary..this is what a true mmo used to be. Time do consuming, fun and about making friends online to play with. If you don't like it, mmos are not for you. Mmos over the last decade have not been a true representation of what an Mmo really was years ago and should remain. A niche community of "nerds"

I find it hilarious when people go on the nostoglia train back to the late 90s early 00s. MMOs are no longer the gut wrenching crawl they used to be.

The current majority in MMO gamers are casuals who have a handful of hours to game. Versus the previous MMO majority that had hours upon hours that they could dedicate on a nightly basis.

The only people that sort of thing is going to sell to are the minority of 'old school' gamers.

I dont want to rush to endgame content myself but Id be a fool to believe the MMO market is what it was 10+ years ago. And forcing gamers into a grind loop where they 'magically' travel to other factions they didnt choose. Only to re-experience the grind they just got done completing. All the while sucking the fun out of creating an Alt on a separate faction. Sorry but this was definitely a bad idea.

The Vet Ranks could of easily been added with Craglorn and from there on any new Regions would increase Vet Rank. It would of been a logical and rational advancement.

Instead they chose to force you to relevel the same character to level 50 three times and slap the 'Veteran Rank' title on it. It was a cheap and lazy attempt to shrug off endgame content.

Reenlister

@Phoenixwing Aye, I do be understanning you. I am pretty sure I ll get back into it yet, I just not be feelin' the sense of really achieving anyting right now, doin' these here other zones, and the only satisfaction I see is the steady climb of the levels. I canna say how it could be better, but I do wish there was a little more to feelin like I had done someting' other than just the level climb. I know I don't feel any sense of accomplishment in helping the AD progress....

PhoenixWing

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Sociabear wrote: »

I am glad it takes time. No one remember trying to level in EQ or Daoc ..
MMO's are a time sink , I'm glad a game has brought that back finally. Group up with friends , grind and just relax and have fun. If you don't have any gaming bros, form a group do the same thing. How do you think old school mmos had such a tight community? Because they spent hours playing together chatting about whatever just relaxing and having fun. I've been playing with the same guys for going on 8 years...

So in summary..this is what a true mmo used to be. Time do consuming, fun and about making friends online to play with. If you don't like it, mmos are not for you. Mmos over the last decade have not been a true representation of what an Mmo really was years ago and should remain. A niche community of "nerds"

I find it hilarious when people go on the nostoglia train back to the late 90s early 00s. MMOs are no longer the gut wrenching crawl they used to be.

The current majority in MMO gamers are casuals who have a handful of hours to game. Versus the previous MMO majority that had hours upon hours that they could dedicate on a nightly basis.

The only people that sort of thing is going to sell to are the minority of 'old school' gamers.

I dont want to rush to endgame content myself but Id be a fool to believe the MMO market is what it was 10+ years ago. And forcing gamers into a grind loop where they 'magically' travel to other factions they didnt choose. Only to re-experience the grind they just got done completing. All the while sucking the fun out of creating an Alt on a separate faction. Sorry but this was definitely a bad idea.

The Vet Ranks could of easily been added with Craglorn and from there on any new Regions would increase Vet Rank. It would of been a logical and rational advancement.

Instead they chose to force you to relevel the same character to level 50 three times and slap the 'Veteran Rank' title on it. It was a cheap and lazy attempt to shrug off endgame content.

Agreed! This might be a better solution to all of this.

Looking from a player who never wanted to make an alt like me, I also understand the point why ZOS do this.

If I never made any alts, I would miss 2/3 of the contents they spent so much time to make! That is such a waste for ZOS and for me. I would like to explore all (or nearly all) the contents without making an alt.

I played FFXIV before, and they also have separate main quests for different factions (starting towns) as well. However, the quests converge once we attain around level 15 or so (out of 50), so I only miss a few contents (level 1-15 ones) by not making alts.

If ZOS would implement the idea you suggested, I think they might have to do something like this too. Missing a whole 2/3 of the contents are a loss to me more than the boredom they created.

And no, giving options for players to do the quests without rewards such as VR ranks are a lot worse. It will be so unrewarding to do the quests even if I wanted to explore other factions.

ThyIronFist

+1

This VR *** will kill the game. Instead of fixing current content, they keep adding VR PvE grindfest crap, and wont be long now til it will be increased to VR15.

The only thing that keeps me playing is PvP.

Reenlister

ThyIronFist wrote: »

+1

This VR *** will kill the game. Instead of fixing current content, they keep adding VR PvE grindfest crap, and wont be long now til it will be increased to VR15.

The only thing that keeps me playing is PvP.

I must now say, and not in a sense of being a butt. Ye actually having fun over there? More like ZvZ. I don't mind a good big battle, but we don't have that either, its just run in a swarm and kill the other swarm...

ThyIronFist

Reenlister wrote: »

ThyIronFist wrote: »

+1

This VR *** will kill the game. Instead of fixing current content, they keep adding VR PvE grindfest crap, and wont be long now til it will be increased to VR15.

The only thing that keeps me playing is PvP.

I must now say, and not in a sense of being a butt. Ye actually having fun over there? More like ZvZ. I don't mind a good big battle, but we don't have that either, its just run in a swarm and kill the other swarm...

Find a decent PvP guild with communication software and you'll see its not ZvZ. Assuming that means Zerg vs Zerg.

Reenlister

ThyIronFist wrote: »

Find a decent PvP guild with communication software and you'll see its not ZvZ. Assuming that means Zerg vs Zerg.

Aye it does. I reckon yer right on that...

Mackeh

I agree with the comment from the OP about effort - reward. I ran 5 dungeons at vet 10 the other night and got one purple (which I couldn't use), 3 greens, and a white. Not great ...

Sakiri

I have a distinct feeling I'm just going to sit on my ass so they decide to add new vet 1-whatever content. Maybe come back when I can faceroll it(current vet zones) while drunk for skillpoints and maybe since Im drunk the boredom wont hit.

Sakiri

Gisgo wrote: »

patrykplawskib16_ESO wrote: »

Ye but its not fun when u go into pvp at vr6 and there's army of vr12's stomping you and they cheated you did it legit and well that's why i hate vet levels no way to catch up or be equal.

Now you got my curiosity on this cheating thing.
What happens when a VR6 stomps a lvl 30, is he cheating too?
At what level does the cheating start exactly?

"Cheating" is "bumrushing to cap so you can roflstomp noobs" apparently. Though imo doing that boss grind they hotfixed was probably "cheating" or they wouldnt have hotfixed it.

Raeder

ZOS will more than likely increase the VR rank to 15 in 1.2. I know for a fact that I will be unsubbing at that point (if not sooner, as this game has so many basic flaws) as I will not tolerate them moving the goalposts this quickly.

I think I'm going to check out Wildstar, even though I haven't had any interest in the game until now.

These devs really don't seem to have their act together.

Biggest gripe at the moment? Pushing Nightblade fixes back 6 weeks or more.

Loco_Mofo

Raeder wrote: »

ZOS will more than likely increase the VR rank to 15 in 1.2. I know for a fact that I will be unsubbing at that point (if not sooner, as this game has so many basic flaws) as I will not tolerate them moving the goalposts this quickly.

I think I'm going to check out Wildstar, even though I haven't had any interest in the game until now.

These devs really don't seem to have their act together.

Biggest gripe at the moment? Pushing Nightblade fixes back 6 weeks or more.

I feel ya.

On both moving the goal posts so early and delaying the nightblade fixes.

It is frustrating, but not frustrating enough to try WildStar.

Catches_the_Sun

Dralzen wrote: »

talking about EQ. they would have not survived the Hell levels. every 5th and 10th level required a ton more xp to level. i guess you are all used to having levels given to you on a silver plater. how do you survive in real life where you have to do hard work for little gain or none at all.

Exactly...I, for one, am ecstatic that a modern-era MMO has finally made us EARN something. This has been lacking since WoW started spoon-feeding everybody that they introduced to the genre. I recall playing games where you actually said congratulations when somebody earned a level, and you meant it, because it took effort. Games where you didn't *** & moan when you couldn't solo all the content because you weren't expected to...you needed help, you socialized, you found like-minded players & worked together.

KerinKor

Syntse wrote: »

Umm, didn't they just up the veteran xp

So this means that VR levels are the tired-old mob grind MMOs of the last century were based on?

1-50 is largely QUEST based, I have no idea what percentage of level 50 XP comes from killing mobs but it's got to be below 20% it seems to me. VR should be the same, doubling mob XP from 52 to 120 (as someone posted I think on Friday) is going to do nothing to entice players who detest Asian grind-fest play mechanics to stay.

KerinKor

Sociabear wrote: »

I am glad it takes time. No one remember trying to level in EQ or Daoc .

That type of game died out .. there's a reason for that, most people tolerated it rather than enjoyed it and they did so because that was the only 'game' in town.

WOW showed there's another way, thank God, and since the turn of the century really only FFXI was an EQ-style group grind-fest and that was because Square Enix designed it to be a Final Fantasy take on EQ.

ZOS seem to be trying to resurrect a dead game mechanic with the VR levels and it's not going to work in the longer term, especially in a game whose player base is largely, perhaps the majority, of players for whom this is a first MMO because they've come from the TES series.

Yes, 'vet MMO gamers' may say they enjoy taking forever to do anything .. in FFXI it took months and even a year or more to level some classes .. but in reality most of them are simply trying to appear superior to those who find taking unpteen days to completed one level not at all fun and engaging.

Lucifer108

KerinKor wrote: »

Sociabear wrote: »

I am glad it takes time. No one remember trying to level in EQ or Daoc .

That type of game died out .. there's a reason for that, most people tolerated it rather than enjoyed it and they did so because that was the only 'game' in town.

WOW showed there's another way, thank God, and since the turn of the century really only FFXI was an EQ-style group grind-fest and that was because Square Enix designed it to be a Final Fantasy take on EQ.

ZOS seem to be trying to resurrect a dead game mechanic with the VR levels and it's not going to work in the longer term, especially in a game whose player base is largely, perhaps the majority, of players for whom this is a first MMO because they've come from the TES series.

Yes, 'vet MMO gamers' may say they enjoy taking forever to do anything .. in FFXI it took months and even a year or more to level some classes .. but in reality most of them are simply trying to appear superior to those who find taking unpteen days to completed one level not at all fun and engaging.

Glad to see a few people still post sensible things on this forum. +10

smokes

i can't remember if i posted in this thread already, but i'm actually convinced that for the long term health of the game, zenimax need to roll back veteran ranks to VR2.

yep, that'll pee off a bunch of the playerbase that grinded their way to V12 already - however, all those rolled back would still have the gold, loot, achievements, skyshards and skillpoints to show for it.

rolling back gear/items might be more of an issue, but it's not impossible to do.

zenimax dun goofed - this is the only real way to fix it at this point and it needs fixing now, before it gets any worse.

roll veteran ranks back to a cap of VR2.
make craglorn level 50-VR2. (with the same XP requirement that was VR10-12)
make level 50 an actual level.
remove XP gain from the other factions quests altogether, but do not remove skillgains (questing through the other content should be an optional experience for gold, skill points, skyshards, ability levelling, etc - not mandatory as part of the grind to max level).
silver almanac mobs level 50, gold almanac mobs VR1 (or preferably scaled to player level, considering that more VR ranks will be added).
reset cyrodiil mobs to level 50.

give all players 5 days free playtime - including those who dropped subs. (to try and re-kindle userbase)

apologise profusely.

---

the benefits of doing this:
no mandatory grind to get into adventure zones.
other faction content that is optional from 50+.
cyrodiil pve content becomes optional VR levelling content.
pvp becomes more balanced - would only be offset by 2 VR levels and gear.

i also want to iterate that i am more than fine with the difficulty level of mobs, world bosses, delves, dolmens, dungeons and all that jazz - it's purely the VR levelling process that needs addressing, as it's currently a massive brick wall of grind and you'll be hard pushed to see anyone born in the 90's that's willing to push through it, without exploiting or finding a niche group willing to grind.

i'm VR4 at the minute and i am burnt out. i have quested my balls off and have resigned to the fact that unless i find a way to exploit, i'll be rolling multiple alts to 50 and waiting for changes to the veteran ranks. i picked up this game to get into the adventure zones, not to play the entire game through from 3 different angles before doing so.

steveb16_ESO46

I like the cut of your jib Smokes.

smokes

steveb16_ESO46 wrote: »

I like the cut of your jib Smokes.

tbh, thats how i thought it would be when i bought the game

netsike

I'm also burnt out...I didn't want to play the other allianced, it's like cheating on my own one. Forcing the players to go to the other territories kills the sense of an alliance. I mean you go there and help them!!! Why would I do that? I swore an oath for my queen...

steveb16_ESO46

smokes wrote: »

steveb16_ESO46 wrote: »

I like the cut of your jib Smokes.

tbh, thats how i thought it would be when i bought the game

Me too. The realisation what VR actually is has drained me of all my former enthusiasm. I play games to have fun. I don't mind a challenge. But I do mind pointless, never-ending grind.

hamon

Catches_the_Sun wrote: »

Dralzen wrote: »

talking about EQ. they would have not survived the Hell levels. every 5th and 10th level required a ton more xp to level. i guess you are all used to having levels given to you on a silver plater. how do you survive in real life where you have to do hard work for little gain or none at all.

Exactly...I, for one, am ecstatic that a modern-era MMO has finally made us EARN something. This has been lacking since WoW started spoon-feeding everybody that they introduced to the genre. I recall playing games where you actually said congratulations when somebody earned a level, and you meant it, because it took effort. Games where you didn't *** & moan when you couldn't solo all the content because you weren't expected to...you needed help, you socialized, you found like-minded players & worked together.

i,m getting sick of all the nostagia mongers who keep harking back to the glory days of games gone by.. except that they invariably do so through rose tinted glasses.

i was there in old school games like EQ2 where pretty much everything you did required a group.. i remember standing spammming for hours trying to find a healer cos you couldn't do anything without them. Healers also knew thier own worth so some of them would abuse this and act like muppets knowing folk would either tolerate them or leave the group and go back to spamming to find another group.. yes these games were fun and you found some good groups. but they wern't all good and the players wern't all paragons of niceness.

it was actually refreshing when vanilla wow came out and you could do much more stuff alone and back then the community was pretty decent

kasain

A vet 4 can solo a vet 11 monster. So I have no idea why I must grind all the way to 11 or 12 to kill what I can already.

Honfold

First of all I love the game, but the vet level design has got to be one of the laziest I have ever seen in a game. Instead of creating a fun way for your faction to operate in the enemy zones they just used the "Experience a whole new faction" excuse. I was very let down by that aspect of the game.

Zero_Tolerance

Why are you still crying ppl? Go to Craglorn and farm your max xp in couple of days (no skill involved in it either, so it's perfect for you). All your problems sorted out, you'll be V12 and your ass will be ripe and ready to be carried through content by other V12s who actually got there doing the stuff, and have some skill.
I'm not saying that there aren't tons of V10 noobs who xp farmed their way there - last one I met was a sorc who couldn't kill a single V9 mammoth on his own, LOL

I got life, 2 kids and all that. I don't play daily, I'm an achievement *** and I did ALL the content up to V10 map. So, any normal player was doing it faster than me. I'm V10 now and I didn't farm a single point of XP, I actually wasted multiple hours in some dungeons waiting for boss spawns so I can get the kill achievement. All that on single bar dw NB. And no, I'm not pro or hardcore player.

Zaxq

Zero_Tolerance wrote: »

Why are you still crying ppl? Go to Craglorn and farm your max xp in couple of days (no skill involved in it either, so it's perfect for you). All your problems sorted out, you'll be V12 and your ass will be ripe and ready to be carried through content by other V12s who actually got there doing the stuff, and have some skill.

Show me the correlation between mindlessly killing 40 million XP worth of the same mobs+quests over and over and over and over and over and over with how skilful you are.

If you're a decent player at VR1 you will still be a decent player at VR12. The mobs don't do anything different and have never been difficult, the nature of the quests is exactly the same (and get progressively repetitive and boring).

If you like questing and all that jazz then you have that option. What everyone else is "crying" about is having any other option to level removed as soon as its discovered. For no other reason that to roadblock you and force you into linear, boring questing.

Personally I've already done the quests once on my main, and am levelling an alt. The thought of having to do all the same crap over again is soul-crushing.

On top of that - why do you even care? What difference does it make to you if someone hits V12 in a week questing or has the option to hit V12 grinding in a few days? 95% of those people you will likely never even see or play with and those people have absolutely zero impact on YOUR game experience.

Plus, if they're terrible then surely that's a bonus for you as you get to kill them in PvP since you're clearly elite and amazing.