The Elder Scrolls Online

Should add-ons be allowed?

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  • Blackwidow
    Blackwidow
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    No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.
    You are being polite. I will answer your polite questions. Thank you.
    EliteZ wrote: »
    1. Options? Yes they provide us with options with being able to create the UI that we like the look of, again I will repeat, Zeni can't provide enough options to appeal to every person so they let them do it themselves.

    That is why I am for addons.

    I know, your next response is, "no your not, you voted no!"

    Yes. I voted no, because I was not given a better choice in the stupid poll. (sorry, who ever made the poll)

    I have no problems with addons. I use addons. I even use the ones I consider cheats.

    I know most of you don't think they are cheats. I'm okay with you not thinking they are cheats.

    However, I feel we should not need to use many addons if ZOS did a better job with user friendly tools.
    4. Basic user-friendly tools are going to help how? What tools are not user-friendly and how would they make somebody like the default UI any more?

    As an example, the AH GUI is horrible. That is not very user friendly. I feel it needs to be made much more user friendly.

    I use a lot of crafting and inventory addons. I think those addons are very user friendly and should be part of the options in the actual game.
    I don't like having my hp, magi and stam all spread out across the screen, so how would that help me in the slightest?

    First, it would not help you in your game, because you don't like them.

    Second, that is why they are called options. :)
    Instead I use addons to allow me to change the bars/styles/position/sizes to how I want them.

    Right, and IMHO, a lot of those should be in game tools.

    Again, options are a good thing.
    3. No, add-ons that show you "hidden items" are not cheats, or else every single guide on the internet which SS of them are also cheats. QUICK BAN THE INTERNET BECAUSE IT SHOWED ME THE LOCATION OF A SKYSHARD!!!!

    I really don't want to keep arguing the merits of what is cheating and what is not.

    BTW, those guides were called cheat guides in my day. Just FYI. ;)

    I understand you guys think that having access to information you really should not have is not cheating. I'm okay if you feel that way.

    I do.

    Can we please just leave it at that and be friends? :)

    Thank you.


    Edited by Blackwidow on May 23, 2014 7:47PM
  • Jade1986
    Jade1986
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    No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.
    They should have had an UI editor INCLUDED IN THE GAME! Mods should not be allowed in MMOs.
  • Blackwolfe5
    Blackwolfe5
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    Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.
    skarvika wrote: »
    show previous quotes
    Not that one...forgot the name of it since I never had an interest in using it. It lets you check the map and see exactly where other players are located regardless if they are stealthed or not.

    If there is such an addon functions, I agree that whatever makes it possible should be fixed. Non-grouped players shouldn't even be visible on the map and certainly not enemy players.

  • Talmet
    Talmet
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    Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.
    skarvika wrote: »
    show previous quotes
    Not that one...forgot the name of it since I never had an interest in using it. It lets you check the map and see exactly where other players are located regardless if they are stealthed or not.
    show previous quotes
    It has a big impact on strategy. You can see players on the map even if they are stealthed and you can easily see where groups are headed even if no friendly players are near them. It's practically cheating.

    I don't want to be rude....but, you aren't going to convince anyone that there exists some magical addon that allows you to cheat, unless you provide some proof.

    What you are saying is the equivalent of this:

    You:
    "guys, there's an addon that lets you instantly max all skill lines, and grants you 1000 skill points"

    Other poster:
    "huh? what's the name?"

    You:
    "Oh, I don't remember, but it TOTALLY EXISTS! AND it ALSO gives you multiple skill bars so you can have every skill in the game running & hotkeyed."

    I have no idea if this mythical addon of which you speak is real, maybe it is, maybe it isn't...I'm skeptical, because of the limitations on the API, I don't think that what you are talking is possible...but I don't know for sure. If it exists, it's bad...but I really really doubt it exists.
    Edited by Talmet on May 23, 2014 8:55PM
  • Blackwidow
    Blackwidow
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    No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.
    Talmet wrote: »
    I don't want to be rude....but, you aren't going to convince anyone that there exists some magical addon that allows you to cheat, unless you provide some proof.

    I'm not defending his point of view, because I do not see what he is seeing, but the term cheating is apparently a very subjective word.

    I think it might be easier to determine what actual addon he feels is cheating.

    Then you can decide for yourself if he has a point, from your view.

    There are some addons I feel is cheating that apparently most here feel is not.
  • JessieColt
    JessieColt
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    Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.
    skarvika wrote: »
    show previous quotes
    Not that one...forgot the name of it since I never had an interest in using it. It lets you check the map and see exactly where other players are located regardless if they are stealthed or not.
    show previous quotes
    It has a big impact on strategy. You can see players on the map even if they are stealthed and you can easily see where groups are headed even if no friendly players are near them. It's practically cheating.

    Sure, you can stand two opposing groups of people facing each other across a battle field, but if you cannot hit the broadside of a barn with a cannon, knowing that they are 100 yards across the field will impart NO inherent guarantee that you will be the last one standing when the smoke clears.

  • ZurinArctus
    ZurinArctus
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    Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.
    Yes.

    Plenty of talent within the community have made such useful addons. They are not necessary to play the game, but if you wish, you can use them. Even those that are disabled have plenty to gain with some of the addons out there.

    If it's a concern of whether or not an addon is advantageous or performing something outside the bounds of metrics or automating mundane tasks, a change in the API itself would resolve these issues without effecting the addon platform as a whole.
  • JessieColt
    JessieColt
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    Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.
    laced wrote: »
    They should have had an UI editor INCLUDED IN THE GAME! Mods should not be allowed in MMOs.

    And how much code bloat is acceptable in order to try to cater to the whims and desires of every user?
  • JessieColt
    JessieColt
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    Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.
    Blackwidow wrote: »
    show previous quotes

    I'm not defending his point of view, because I do not see what he is seeing, but the term cheating is apparently a very subjective word.

    I think it might be easier to determine what actual addon he feels is cheating.

    Then you can decide for yourself if he has a point, from your view.

    There are some addons I feel is cheating that apparently most here feel is not.

    I am curious to know which add-ons you feel are cheating
  • Talmet
    Talmet
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    Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.
    Blackwidow wrote: »
    show previous quotes

    I'm not defending his point of view, because I do not see what he is seeing, but the term cheating is apparently a very subjective word.

    I think it might be easier to determine what actual addon he feels is cheating.

    Then you can decide for yourself if he has a point, from your view.

    There are some addons I feel is cheating that apparently most here feel is not.

    ...that was my point.

    He claimed there exists an addon that lets you see player positions on the map.

    Another poster asked what addon he was talking about.

    He claimed he couldn't remember the name, but that the addon ALSO showed enemy and friendly players who were stealthed.

    The question is. Does it exist? What addon is he talking about? I can make up fake addons as well....

    i.e. Hey, guys. There's an addon that disables every other players addons if they are in the same zone as you. I like addons, so I don't use it, and I can't remember the name, but it exists. If you don't like addons, go get it, and stop complaining here.
  • Blackwidow
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    No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.
    JessieColtub17_ESO wrote: »
    I am curious to know which add-ons you feel are cheating

    You'd be the millionth person to ask me that on this thread. :D

    I think addons that show you stuff, that the game purposely had hidden from players, is a cheat mod, from my point of view.

    I think ZOS allows it, because it is easy enough to just cheat by looking it up on websites, so why bother banning it.

    I'm not saying it is game breaking. But from a pure morals point of view, it gives players an advantage I don't think was meant to be given.

    Addons are supposed to help you have better gui tools, right?

    How is showing where the shards are or mage books an improvement on the GUI?

    Anyway, just my opinion.
    Edited by Blackwidow on May 23, 2014 9:38PM
  • Talmet
    Talmet
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    Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.
    JessieColtub17_ESO wrote: »
    show previous quotes

    I am curious to know which add-ons you feel are cheating

    oops, sry for double post.

    He is apparently a part of a very small group of players who have existed for a very long time.

    In their view, accessing anything that is not in the base game is cheating.

    -Alt-tabbing to look at a map on line=cheating
    -Looking up the solution to a puzzle (he hasn't talked about this, but I'd guess from what he has posted that he'd say it was cheating as well.)

    There have always been people like that in games, people who viewed game guides/walkthroughs as cheating. Of course most people do have some views on what is cheating and what isn't...i.e. is saving, attempting to perform an action & if you fail, then loading and trying again cheating? Some people say yes, some people say no.
    Edited by Talmet on May 23, 2014 9:19PM
  • Blackwolfe5
    Blackwolfe5
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    Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.
    And we've been over this already with the lorebook/skyshard/harvestmap things. I'd say that this particular thing has been done to death and is basically down to perspective. Arguing over semantics on this on these three specific addons is pointless, no matter which side you are on.

    But we have not yet seen a single actual example of an addon that people think is cheating above the mentioned ones.

    There have also been good points on both sides of the argument and bad points on both sides of the argument. (although personally I feel that the no side has had the larger amount of bad points)

    What we can all agree on however (by the sound of it), is that there are certain things that should be in the vanilla UI, such as a proper guild store search, better inventory filters or a grid view and I personally hope ZOS eventually implements these things, while still maintaining the freedom that addon developers currently have.

    Furthermore, if an addon ever pops up that does unintended things (an example would be decursive in wow, which allowed for autocleansing, however the capability to automatically de-curse/cleanse etc was later removed by Blizzard, leaving people having to do it manually) those functions should be locked down. Being able to place custom markers on the map is a very important feature that some addons use, but while it might be seen as cheating by some (in the case or lorebooks/harvestmaps/skyshards) I do not think that custom markers should be disallowed.
    Edited by Blackwolfe5 on May 23, 2014 9:35PM
  • Blackwidow
    Blackwidow
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    No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.
    Talmet wrote: »
    n their view, accessing anything that is not in the base game is cheating.

    Not anything. :)
    -Alt-tabbing to look at a map on line=cheating

    Only if that map shows stuff you should not know about.
    -Looking up the solution to a puzzle (he hasn't talked about this, but I'd guess from what he has posted that he'd say it was cheating as well.)

    Yes. True.
    There have always been people like that in games, people who viewed game guides/walkthroughs as cheating. Of course most people do have some views on what is cheating and what isn't...i.e. is saving, attempting to perform an action & if you fail, then loading and trying again cheating? Some people say yes, some people say no.

    That does pretty much sum it up. It's not exactly how I feel, but it is close enough.

    Edit: Just to be clear, it does not mean I don't use them. ;)
    Edited by Blackwidow on May 23, 2014 9:29PM
  • Madirishman76
    Madirishman76
    Soul Shriven
    Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.
    david271749 wrote: »
    Please state why you voted yes or no below.

    Add-ons are needed for some stuff right now like the guildstore I would never find what I wanted without the add-on. Also until they get some of the proc/buff animations right an add-on seemed necessary. I don't like add-ons that warn you of boss mechanics before they hit or count down to the next boss mechanic cause IMO it takes the skill/awareness out of the fight. For now lots of addons are needed to make this game play properly unless ZOS wanted you to not be able to find anything in the guild store or not know when your abilities proc or buffs wear off.
  • Jade1986
    Jade1986
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    No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.
    JessieColtub17_ESO wrote: »
    show previous quotes

    And how much code bloat is acceptable in order to try to cater to the whims and desires of every user?
    They shouldn't have to cater to the whims of every player. They should have included a UI editor like SWTOR and basta. Then there was a level playing field, and we wouldnt have to worry about people saying "there is an add on for that" when ZoS should be optimizing and fixing things. Perfect example, the guild store. Instead of fixing it, all we get is "there is an add on for that". I dont use add ons, and never will, I dont pay to have amateurs make add ons. I pay for official patches and support. And before you get offended for me saying the word amateur. They are not getting paid by ZoS, so they are amateurs.
  • KeynesAlley
    KeynesAlley
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    Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.
    Someone at the start of this thread said that add-ons give "some players" an advantage over others.

    This is simply BS because everyone can use add-ons and the ones I've seen are all free. If you don't want to use add-ons, then that's your issue and no reason to prevent others from using them.
    Edited by KeynesAlley on May 24, 2014 10:03AM
  • diwie
    diwie
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    Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.
    I've heard that some guys using teamspeak and other external cheat and trading programs. Compared to this add ons are pretty harmless and some making the game more valuable.

    I would agree that spawn points for treasures, harvested and perhaps even skyshards should be more dynamic. Anyway location map add ons are useless to me.
  • TetsuMaru
    TetsuMaru
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    Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.
    While I voted yes I will state that I dont use addons at all. But just because I don't it doesn't mean no one else should if they choose to.
  • david271749
    david271749
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    No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.
    I've voted no, but I'm slowly starting to love add-ons. There are a lot of good ones out there. I just got one that lets me use an xbox controller. :)
  • jvh808
    jvh808
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    No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.
    Bit late to be asking this question, don't ya think?
  • david271749
    david271749
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    No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.
    jvh808 wrote: »
    Bit late to be asking this question, don't ya think?

    Nope
  • wizzerd_lg_ESO
    wizzerd_lg_ESO
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    Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.
    It seems absurd to me that so many claim they shouldn't be allowed because they shouldn't be needed...

    It's just not possible for any game (at this point) to be sufficiently customizable to appeal to every player's individual style and preferences. So the game will fall short of many player's desires, and addons take up a lot of that slack without requiring major overhauls of the game itself.

    Yes, some addons can allow undesirable effects an exploitation. Those need to be taken off the board, and they seem to do a pretty good job of that for the most part. Oh my god your world isn't going to end because some guild can recruit in pink text...
  • Blackwidow
    Blackwidow
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    No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.
    wizzerd_lg_ESO wrote: »
    It seems absurd to me that so many claim they shouldn't be allowed because they shouldn't be needed...

    In all fairness, the poll sucked. :)
    It's just not possible for any game (at this point) to be sufficiently customizable to appeal to every player's individual style and preferences. So the game will fall short of many player's desires, and addons take up a lot of that slack without requiring major overhauls of the game itself.

    True dat.

    However, there still needs to be a higher level of user tools in the actual game.
  • justin903b14a_ESO
    justin903b14a_ESO
    Soul Shriven
    Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.
    laced wrote: »
    show previous quotes
    They shouldn't have to cater to the whims of every player. They should have included a UI editor like SWTOR and basta. Then there was a level playing field, and we wouldnt have to worry about people saying "there is an add on for that" when ZoS should be optimizing and fixing things. Perfect example, the guild store. Instead of fixing it, all we get is "there is an add on for that". I dont use add ons, and never will, I dont pay to have amateurs make add ons. I pay for official patches and support. And before you get offended for me saying the word amateur. They are not getting paid by ZoS, so they are amateurs.

    So if a programmers day time job is 9-5 and they come home and make an addon and get donations for the addons and they make more of them and get a good enough income to quit they're job and make money from just donations for the game does that promotion title become poser?
    Edited by justin903b14a_ESO on May 25, 2014 7:39AM
  • Jeremy
    Jeremy
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    No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.
    Talmet wrote: »
    show previous quotes

    The ability to mark multiple node locations on your map is not in the current game...true. But if you can tell me how it is different than taking a screenshot of the map, printing it & then marking it with a pen...please do. That "feature" is just convenience, it lets me do the same thing as I could with a printer and a pen.

    The ability to do specific searches in the guild store is a feature that is not currently in the game...true. But I can look through the items myself, and find the items. That feature is just convenience, as anyone can look through a list & find things themselves.

    The ability to view research times from anywhere is a feature that does not already exist in the game...true But, I can use these things called watches/clocks/timers that exist in the real world & do the exact same thing. All the addon does is let someone set up timers in the game instead of having to use a clock...so, just convenience.

    There is no addon that provides you with a feature that can not be easily provided with a pen/paper, a watch, etc..

    Do watches/clocks/timers really exist in the real world? This I did not know so thanks for illuminating me :)

    You admit these addons add features that are not currently in the game. Which is what I said.

    I also disagree with you that these addons provide features that can be easily provided by other means. Easily is a subjective term to be sure. Especially in this case. Because I would find nothing easy about having to draw my own maps and mark the nodes myself with a pencil. I also find nothing easy about having to search through page after page in nearly a half dozen guild stores trying to find something I would like to buy.

    So I agree with you that these addons provide the user with features that would not otherwise exists on the game. I disagree with you that they offer only mild conveniences that are easy to do manually. Because in my opinion, they are not. Which is precisely why these addons are popular to begin with.
  • Jeremy
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    No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.
    Talmet wrote: »
    show previous quotes

    I agree, fixing the guild store should be a priority. The question is, how high?
    You didn't answer my question, so I'll restate it.

    Should fixing the guild store be a higher priorit than fixing quest breaking bugs? Meaning, should ZOS take programmers who are currently working on fixing quest breaking bugs and reassign them to fixing the guild store?

    Oh, and any claim that fixing the guild store would take just a few hours, would be a) silly, and just show how little you know about adding/editing a program as complex as ESO & b) pointless, as I could make the same claim about fixing a single quest bug.

    I don't remember making any claims that it would take only a few hours to streamline the guild store interface. So I'm not really sure why you are directing that claim at me. So you might be getting me confused with someone else.

    I am sure it would be many hours of programming and testing. But so what. That is their job. If spending a lot of time programming is a problem for them - then they are in the wrong occupation. So that's not an excuse I'm inclined to be sympathetic to.

    Now as far as your question: I would prefer that they make giving us an updated and more efficient guild store interface a top priority. This game's economy is bad enough. It doesn't need a sloppy, inefficent and bug-ridden interface to compound it even further.

    Edited by Jeremy on May 25, 2014 2:32PM
  • Talmet
    Talmet
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    Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.
    Jeremy wrote: »
    You admit these addons add features that are not currently in the game. Which is what I said.

    I also disagree with you that these addons provide features that can be easily provided by other means. Easily is a subjective term to be sure. Especially in this case. Because I would find nothing easy about having to draw my own maps and mark the nodes myself with a pencil. I also find nothing easy about having to search through page after page in nearly a half dozen guild stores trying to find something I would like to buy.

    So I agree with you that these addons provide the user with features that would not otherwise exists on the game. I disagree with you that they offer only mild conveniences that are easy to do manually. Because in my opinion, they are not. Which is precisely why these addons are popular to begin with.

    Easily is a subjective term...and I said nothing about drawing your own map, I said take a screenshot of the map & print it. And looking through a list to find something is difficult to you? Time consuming sure...but difficult?

    Addons are either completely cosmetic (i.e. moving health bars around the screen). Or, they save time (i.e. guild store search, not having to print out the map & mark it with a pen, etc). Cosmetic addons provide nothing other than cater to person preference. I suppose if you really tried you could make an arguement against the addons that save time, claiming that by saving time they provide some advantage by allowing the player to spend that time somewhere else...but a person with a very good memory could do the same thing, is having a good memory something that is unfair?

    I mean, lets assume that ZOS comes out and decides that addons can't be used anymore, they close API, institute some warden program that identifies people who use addons & ban them. If someone can just remember where node locations are, so they never used the harvestmap addon...should they be banned from playing because of the advantage they have as well? Didn't the addon just level the playing field between the person with a really good memory, and the person without...
    Jeremy wrote: »
    I am sure it would be many hours of programming and testing. But so what. That is their job. If spending a lot of time programming is a problem for them - then they are in the wrong occupation. So that's not an excuse I'm inclined to be sympathetic to.

    I completely agree, it is their job to program for many hours...the point is that right now, they ARE programming already. It isn't like they show up to work & sit around watching netflix all day and then go home. They are working on other things, implying that they are doing nothing right now & that they are using an excuse to get out of working at all, is pretty insulting.
    Jeremy wrote: »
    Now as far as your question: I would prefer that they make giving us an updated and more efficient guild store interface a top priority. This game's economy is bad enough. It doesn't need a sloppy, inefficent and bug-ridden interface to compound it even further.

    So fixing the UI should be a top priority?

    Ok, then I assume you'd be completely fine if for the next few weeks there were no bug fixes, no quest bug fixes, skills weren't fixed, classes weren't balanced, server stability wasn't fixed, botting programs weren't analysed & hopefully broken, etc? Those are all lower priority than fixing the guild store UI, right? Somehow, I think you'd be in the very very small minority on that...

    Oh, and as for the economy...the economy is less than 2 months old, it's going to take awhile for the economy to settle. The claim that the economy sucks, or that there is no economy, is a claim that is made in every new MMO & after every expansion of every MMO. Give the player base time so that a good portion of the people reach max lvl, and find what is & what is not useful...the economy will settle down & be fine.
  • Jeremy
    Jeremy
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    No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.
    Talmet wrote: »
    show previous quotes

    Easily is a subjective term...and I said nothing about drawing your own map, I said take a screenshot of the map & print it. And looking through a list to find something is difficult to you? Time consuming sure...but difficult?

    Addons are either completely cosmetic (i.e. moving health bars around the screen). Or, they save time (i.e. guild store search, not having to print out the map & mark it with a pen, etc). Cosmetic addons provide nothing other than cater to person preference. I suppose if you really tried you could make an arguement against the addons that save time, claiming that by saving time they provide some advantage by allowing the player to spend that time somewhere else...but a person with a very good memory could do the same thing, is having a good memory something that is unfair?

    I mean, lets assume that ZOS comes out and decides that addons can't be used anymore, they close API, institute some warden program that identifies people who use addons & ban them. If someone can just remember where node locations are, so they never used the harvestmap addon...should they be banned from playing because of the advantage they have as well? Didn't the addon just level the playing field between the person with a really good memory, and the person without...
    show previous quotes

    I completely agree, it is their job to program for many hours...the point is that right now, they ARE programming already. It isn't like they show up to work & sit around watching netflix all day and then go home. They are working on other things, implying that they are doing nothing right now & that they are using an excuse to get out of working at all, is pretty insulting.
    show previous quotes

    So fixing the UI should be a top priority?

    Ok, then I assume you'd be completely fine if for the next few weeks there were no bug fixes, no quest bug fixes, skills weren't fixed, classes weren't balanced, server stability wasn't fixed, botting programs weren't analysed & hopefully broken, etc? Those are all lower priority than fixing the guild store UI, right? Somehow, I think you'd be in the very very small minority on that...

    Oh, and as for the economy...the economy is less than 2 months old, it's going to take awhile for the economy to settle. The claim that the economy sucks, or that there is no economy, is a claim that is made in every new MMO & after every expansion of every MMO. Give the player base time so that a good portion of the people reach max lvl, and find what is & what is not useful...the economy will settle down & be fine.

    I think I've lost track what we are debating here.

    I never said addons didn't save time. I said they add features that are not currently in the game. Which you agreed with.

    Where we disagreed is you think it's easy to track crafting nodes manually or search the guild store page by page. I don't.

    I think fixing the Guild Store interface should be a top priority. You don't. We should probably just agree to disagree about this. Because I think you're exaggerating when you act as if they could not fix anything else if they took the time to improve it.

    And we disagree about this game's economy. But that belongs in another thread so in the interest of staying on topic I'll refrain from getting into that.

    Edited by Jeremy on May 26, 2014 2:37AM
  • Talmet
    Talmet
    ✭✭✭
    Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.
    Jeremy wrote: »
    show previous quotes

    I think I've lost track what we are debating here.

    I never said addons didn't save time. I said they add features that are not currently in the game. Which you agreed with.

    Where we disagreed is you think it's easy to track crafting nodes manually or search the guild store page by page. I don't.

    I think fixing the Guild Store interface should be a top priority. You don't. We should probably just agree to disagree about this. Because I think you're exaggerating when you act as if they could not fix anything else if they took the time to improve it.

    And we disagree about this game's economy. But that belongs in another thread so in the interest of staying on topic I'll refrain from getting into that.

    If something is the top priority, then you have most/all of your people working on it. If they take most/all of their programmers and put them on fixing the guild store, then they won't have as many (or any) programmers working on fixing other things (which means those other things don't get fixed).

    If you actually just meant that fixing the guild store should be higher on the priority list & have one or two people working on it. Ok, then what were those programmers working on before?

    i.e. Should they be taking programmers who are currently working on fixing quest bugs & have them instead work on the guild store? If so, quest bugs won't get fixed as fast.

    As for the economy, I agree it isn't part of this topic...but you brought it up.
    Edited by Talmet on May 26, 2014 6:41AM
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