Should add-ons be allowed?

greeat-scottb14_ESO · May 2014

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

of course cheats should not be allowed. but look at skyrim and the way it runs now (better than in the developers hands). if somebody's too lazy to do the work that's expected and needed.........

Jeremy · May 2014

No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.

Talmet wrote: »

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Jeremy wrote: »

Talmet wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

PhoenixWing wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

PhoenixWing wrote: »

P.S. @ZeroInspiration‌ I think that add-on don't work anymore since the patch that stop allowing you to teleport to yourself.

link:
http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info224-Jumper.html

But for awhile at least it did work.

So it enabled cheating. That is proof enough right there that these add-ons can be used to cheat. Because it has already happened.

I agree with you that add-ons should not be allowed to perform features that do not exist.

However, in this case (Jumper add-on), it is the fault on Zenimax part, not the add-ons' that let this feature slipped.
Also, the fact that they fixed it confirms that they mistakenly made it available, so please do not use these bugs as an argument.

You can't just ignore that it happened for the sake of debate.

The fact remains there has already been at least one add-on that allowed players to cheat. Rather it was Zenimax's fault or not is irrelevant to my argument.

It has already happened and will happen again. It's a legitimate concern and shouldn't be mocked or discounted (I'm not saying you did).

Jumper did not provide a feature that someone who didn't have jumper did not have.

Prior to the fix, any player (both those with & without jumper), could open up their guild screen & teleport to themselves.

Jumper's only function was to save you like...10 seconds of time, so that instead of having to press G & then find your name, right click & click "teleport to player", you could just use the addon to do those things. (note, you can still do it to any other player in a guild you are a member of, the fix was that you can't go to yourself anymore.) (note, I never used jumper, as I rarely want to teleport to the closest wayshrine...instead I just teleport to another guild member in the same zone, which usually puts me back in a city with merchants/crafting/etc).

There was nothing that the addon did, that could not be easily done by someone who did not have the addon.

So...no, there has not been an instance of an addon that provided a feature that did not exist in the game for ESO yet.

As to the whole..."ESO dev's are lazy" nonsense.....no, they just have other priorities.

Do I want a search function for the guild store? Yes.
Do I want ZOS to take a programmer off of fixing quest breaking bugs, and have them work on the guild store UI instead? No.

The problem here is, that many of you seem to believe that ZOS has infinite resources & personnel. They don't...they have to prioritize where to spend their time.

UI fixes are important, so are breaking botting programs, fixing bugs, preparing to move the EU servers actually to EU, finishing content that was promised (i.e. dark brotherhood, crime system, thieves guild, housing, etc), and many many other things. ZOS does not have the money or the personnel to have hundreds of programmers working on everything at once (no company does), so they have to prioritize.

You may disagree with their priorities, but claiming that a company is lazy because they put something you care about lower on the priority list than you would prefer is rather self-centered.

I don't ever remember claiming the company is lazy. But I will, at least when it comes to certain things. And I do believe an over-reliance on addons is at least partly to blame in this regard.

The guild store interface for example is sloppy and lazily put together. It's barely usable in fact. And pointing that out doesn't mean I'm self-centered. It just means I can recognize lazy design.

I like this game. But I'm not going to excuse their mistakes simply because they don't have infinite resources and personal like you seem to suggest. Because no company has infinite resources and personal. That's a cop out and be used to justify anything.

Many people in this thread have stated that ZOS is lazy.

I was not really talking about the viewpoint behind the complaints in this thread, but with the manner the complaints are made...

I agree, with addons, the game dev's can shelve pretty much all UI concerns & focus on other things. If you believe that they should shelve other concerns & focus on the UI instead, that's fine....I disagree, & apparently so do the dev's.

If you want the dev's to actually switch their priorities & work on the UI, then you should provide reasons other than just telling them it's a cop out. Provide reasons, and not just because "the UI is important" or because "I want you to". Why is fixing the UI more important (not just to you, but to the entire game) than <insert some other feature that you believe should be shelved>?....they are a business, if people gave them reasons why fixing the UI would make more business sense then adding new content or fixing bugs, they'd be more likely to do it than if people just call them lazy.

Prior to SWTOR's launch, there was an interview with one of the head dev's where he talked about how people complaining about specific content not being included in a game was basically ignored by every dev in the industry...because they can't do everything, and complaints never take that into account. It is always just "WHAT? THERE ISN'T HOUSING?!?!? THIS GAME WILL FAIL!!!!" If you want game dev's to actually listen to your complaints, take into account that there are only X number of programmers working for the company, if you want some new feature added, then some other feature will have fewer programmers working on it & will not be done as quickly/well/etc...

Our basic disagreement seems to be you think its ok for the developers to rely on addons to provide a quality and customizable interface and I don't. And as you say that's fine and people disagree.

That being said though, it's mostly my past experiences with addons in other games that have lead me to be so against them. It doesn't really have much to do with the UI.

shmcphrsnb14a_ESO · May 2014

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

[Moderation: Content removed for advertising non-ESO products.]

Ciarán · May 2014

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

Jeremy wrote: »

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Ciarán wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Ciarán wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

magic_is_might wrote: »

Wow... Improving functionality = advantageous? You'd have to be a crappy player if having better navigation of a games UI and in-game menus gives me an advantage over you.

That is probably the lamest and weakest reason against addons. Oh no, I can filter my inventory better. Somehow that gives me an advantage.

You are grasping.

This will be my last post for the day

It's not grasping to suggest a more functional and efficient UI is advantageous. I would consider that common sense.

If there was no advantage/benefit (which ever word you prefer) to these types of addons then no one would want them to begin with.

It's mostly the addons that give gameplay advantages I have a problem with. UI customization is alright.

No matter how nice or pretty the UI is, there will always be people who want to change it to suit their own personal tastes. There will be people who want to be able to rearrange everything. Maybe they want a percentage number instead of a bar or to use a different font, or what-have-you. This is because everybody has different tastes and preferences.

To say that people want addons simply because of the advantage/benefit they bestow is simply naive - people will want what they want, for a multitude of reasons. Some will want to make the UI even more minimalistic to improve immersion. Some just want changes made for aesthetic purposes. Some people want to be able to have rainbow colored text when they type in chat. They do not have to confer any sort of advantage or benefit; it just gives them a better player experience.
.

Well first I was self centered. Then I was a crappy player. Not I am naïve because I said addons give players advantages

What ever the reasons are that player may want a certain addon, they still offer the player advantages. That's just the simple truth. And its time you and others stop being so defensive about this and just admit that plain and basic fact.

Now rather they are unfair or not is a different discussion and I would have to judge that on a case by case basis. I have seen addons that were unfair. I have seen addons that weren't.

A few things. First, your assertion that I and others need to "stop being so defensive" is, quite frankly, unfair and a bit arrogant. Don't try assume the moral high ground here. Also, I did not say you were naive for saying addons give people an advantage. I said it was naive to claim people only wanted addons because they gave an advantage, i.e. if they gave no advantages then nobody would want them.

Second, I had more than one point in that post. Which, even with your cherry picking, you did not address anything in my post. You just reasserted your claim. So let me reiterate: Before a meaningful middle ground or any form of mutual understanding can be reached, a single set of terminology needs to be agreed upon. What constitutes something that alters gameplay? What does not? Additionally, you keep throwing around the word "advantage". I would argue that, in order for an add-on to provide a player an advantage, the use of that add on would need to put other players at a disadvantage.

So now I am arrogant as well as naïve ^^

Again, addons offer players advantages over the current systems. That is one of the reasons they are used by players in the first place. Sometimes they may offer significant advantages over other players not using these addons as well. But not always.

Some of this is subjective. But yes, I do believe people including yourself are being far too defensive about the word advantage and reading way too much in to it. I don't see that as arrogance. I just think you are misjudging what I intend by using the word.

Something that alters gameplay would be an addon that allows you to do things with your character you could not otherwise do.

I should have mentioned it in my earlier post, but I truly do not mean to insult you or claim that you are naive or arrogant. I apologize if any offense was taken.

In case it was not clear in my earlier posts, let me state it plainly: until we can agree upon what constitutes an advantage, what is meant by "add-on", "mod", etc, then I'm not interested in debating whether or not third party alterations should be allowed to the game. I wasn't trying to debate that in my previous posts, either - hence my surprise at the"defensive" statement. The portion of your quote that I bolded is precisely why I want those terms defined.

I would ask that you clarify exactly what you mean by advantage. We also need to come to an agreement upon terminology. Regarding the term add-on - we seem to have very different ideas as to what that means. To me, an add-on does not impact gameplay, whereas to you it does. Things that impact gameplay I would call a mod or a bot. But technically, all mods could be labeled add-ons, and vice versa. Hence the confusion, which will remain until all parties present use the same term to indicate the same thing.

Blackwidow · May 2014

No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.

EliteZ wrote: »

Sorry, but you're an idiot.

Well, atleast you start off polite.

Ever thought that what the developers, you or I might like another person out there is going to like something else.

Yes, they are called options.

You might like the default UI, I personally don't like it and use a unit frame addon to get it looking how I want. Is Zeni suppose to make every possible UI so that everyone is happy with the box-standard game?

No.

What they are supposed to do is give basic user friendly tools. This game lacks that in a major way.

And no, there isn't a single add-on available for ESO that lets you "cheat" even in the slightest.

Wrong.

Showing where hidden items are in the world is a cheat.

You can't, so stop talking like you know everything just because you might not like to use add-ons.

If you did not have your head so far up your butt, you would know I am not against addons.

Sorry, but you are an idiot.

Kiwi · May 2014

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

sooo by the logic of those opposed, we should all stop using the internet because jeddateech in nigeria does not have it and its unfair to him

we should all stop driving our cars because mrs. jones in dargaville prefers to take the bus and we should all do what she thinks,

if you dont like it dont use it, i cannot understand why its such a problem and can only presume its not an actual problem and just another excuse to whine

are you so terrified that someone might get something you wont?
are you scared of missing out on something you didnt even know existed and would never have bothered about in the first place?

i can only suggest, try them before you launch your weak hate campaigns, you will see theres nothing to fear

phairdon · May 2014

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

This will make people against add ons laugh. Have a couple and the latest patch has made them invalid.

cliveklgb14_ESO · May 2014

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

Soloeus wrote: »

hell, about 4/5 of the addons should already be in the vanilla game anyway.

That isn't an argument for no addons though.

cliveklgb14_ESO · May 2014

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

Blackwidow wrote: »

I say that when it is clear we can not agree.

No you do it whenever people present facts you can't rebut.

But they do allow cheating, at least from my point of view.

Again, you don't get to make that decision, they do.

And this is clearly not the first thread, you've been the vast minority in, on this topic.

Again, take your own advice, let it go.

cliveklgb14_ESO · May 2014

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

Blackwidow wrote: »

If a player made mod suddenly made you lose all your inventory, ZOS would not be obligated to get your stuff back, because they allow mods, but are not responsible for the problems.

Except the mod architecture doesn't allow for that. So your point is moot.

Same with your lumping bot programs that have nothing to do with mod architecture, with addons.

ZOS has clearly defined what they want allowed without the mod architecture.

If something unexpected happens they didn't intend, they can and will likely fix it. But that is their decision on what they find acceptable, not yours. And clearly, they don't agree with you, as most responses.

And so we end up with you unable to find a single example of a mod that allows people to cheat by ZOS's definitions, in the addons.

cliveklgb14_ESO · May 2014

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

jbfroik wrote: »

While i don't think add ons are terrible, its a huge grey area. There is a big difference between say an add on that displays party health percentages and an add on that locates chests or materials.

Grey to whom? You? It isn't grey to ZOS. They have no problem with it at all.

And those mods don't "locate" chests or materials for you. They are a static map, just like I were to draw out everyone I find on a piece of paper. You can then go check those areas to see if a resource or chest has appeared or not. They don't guarantee you to find anything.

But that is because the points they appear are a static list to choose from when they spawn.

Blackwidow · May 2014

No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.

cliveklgb14_ESO wrote: »

Except the mod architecture doesn't allow for that. So your point is moot.

No, it was an example. Let the concept wash over you.

Same with your lumping bot programs that have nothing to do with mod architecture, with addons.

I have never said the word bot one time in this whole thread.

If something unexpected happens they didn't intend, they can and will likely fix it.

You think that if a mod screws up our game, ZOS will fix it? Please show me any reason for believing that other than blind faith in ZOS.

But that is their decision on what they find acceptable, not yours. And clearly, they don't agree with you, as most responses.

And so we end up with you unable to find a single example of a mod that allows people to cheat by ZOS's definitions, in the addons.

I think they do see it as a cheat, but they know that it would be futile to stop it because the information is on websites anyway, so they let it in game.

No you do it whenever people present facts you can't rebut.

Right. That is why I am not here arguing my side.

It is a shame when I say, "okay guys we don't agree, let's just let it go", and you still want to ask me questions like you have to change my mind.

Look guys. You want me to say you win? Will that make you feel all macho?

You win.

Have a nice day.

Let me guess you will say something immature next. Probably that I'm being passive aggressive.

WhimsyDragon · May 2014

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

While some add ons do feel too drastic, others are so useful that they make the game significantly better in my opinion. If I actively playing a game often, I can be very picky about the way things are setup, and expecting ZOS to cater to that might not work out for everyone else

cliveklgb14_ESO · May 2014

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

Just more passive aggressive bs hypocrisy.

Talmet · May 2014

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

Jeremy wrote: »

show previous quotes

Talmet wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Talmet wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

PhoenixWing wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

PhoenixWing wrote: »

P.S. @ZeroInspiration‌ I think that add-on don't work anymore since the patch that stop allowing you to teleport to yourself.

link:
http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info224-Jumper.html

But for awhile at least it did work.

So it enabled cheating. That is proof enough right there that these add-ons can be used to cheat. Because it has already happened.

I agree with you that add-ons should not be allowed to perform features that do not exist.

However, in this case (Jumper add-on), it is the fault on Zenimax part, not the add-ons' that let this feature slipped.
Also, the fact that they fixed it confirms that they mistakenly made it available, so please do not use these bugs as an argument.

You can't just ignore that it happened for the sake of debate.

The fact remains there has already been at least one add-on that allowed players to cheat. Rather it was Zenimax's fault or not is irrelevant to my argument.

It has already happened and will happen again. It's a legitimate concern and shouldn't be mocked or discounted (I'm not saying you did).

Jumper did not provide a feature that someone who didn't have jumper did not have.

Prior to the fix, any player (both those with & without jumper), could open up their guild screen & teleport to themselves.

Jumper's only function was to save you like...10 seconds of time, so that instead of having to press G & then find your name, right click & click "teleport to player", you could just use the addon to do those things. (note, you can still do it to any other player in a guild you are a member of, the fix was that you can't go to yourself anymore.) (note, I never used jumper, as I rarely want to teleport to the closest wayshrine...instead I just teleport to another guild member in the same zone, which usually puts me back in a city with merchants/crafting/etc).

There was nothing that the addon did, that could not be easily done by someone who did not have the addon.

So...no, there has not been an instance of an addon that provided a feature that did not exist in the game for ESO yet.

As to the whole..."ESO dev's are lazy" nonsense.....no, they just have other priorities.

Do I want a search function for the guild store? Yes.
Do I want ZOS to take a programmer off of fixing quest breaking bugs, and have them work on the guild store UI instead? No.

The problem here is, that many of you seem to believe that ZOS has infinite resources & personnel. They don't...they have to prioritize where to spend their time.

UI fixes are important, so are breaking botting programs, fixing bugs, preparing to move the EU servers actually to EU, finishing content that was promised (i.e. dark brotherhood, crime system, thieves guild, housing, etc), and many many other things. ZOS does not have the money or the personnel to have hundreds of programmers working on everything at once (no company does), so they have to prioritize.

You may disagree with their priorities, but claiming that a company is lazy because they put something you care about lower on the priority list than you would prefer is rather self-centered.

I don't ever remember claiming the company is lazy. But I will, at least when it comes to certain things. And I do believe an over-reliance on addons is at least partly to blame in this regard.

The guild store interface for example is sloppy and lazily put together. It's barely usable in fact. And pointing that out doesn't mean I'm self-centered. It just means I can recognize lazy design.

I like this game. But I'm not going to excuse their mistakes simply because they don't have infinite resources and personal like you seem to suggest. Because no company has infinite resources and personal. That's a cop out and be used to justify anything.

Many people in this thread have stated that ZOS is lazy.

I was not really talking about the viewpoint behind the complaints in this thread, but with the manner the complaints are made...

I agree, with addons, the game dev's can shelve pretty much all UI concerns & focus on other things. If you believe that they should shelve other concerns & focus on the UI instead, that's fine....I disagree, & apparently so do the dev's.

If you want the dev's to actually switch their priorities & work on the UI, then you should provide reasons other than just telling them it's a cop out. Provide reasons, and not just because "the UI is important" or because "I want you to". Why is fixing the UI more important (not just to you, but to the entire game) than <insert some other feature that you believe should be shelved>?....they are a business, if people gave them reasons why fixing the UI would make more business sense then adding new content or fixing bugs, they'd be more likely to do it than if people just call them lazy.

Prior to SWTOR's launch, there was an interview with one of the head dev's where he talked about how people complaining about specific content not being included in a game was basically ignored by every dev in the industry...because they can't do everything, and complaints never take that into account. It is always just "WHAT? THERE ISN'T HOUSING?!?!? THIS GAME WILL FAIL!!!!" If you want game dev's to actually listen to your complaints, take into account that there are only X number of programmers working for the company, if you want some new feature added, then some other feature will have fewer programmers working on it & will not be done as quickly/well/etc...

Our basic disagreement seems to be you think its ok for the developers to rely on addons to provide a quality and customizable interface and I don't. And as you say that's fine and people disagree.

That being said though, it's mostly my past experiences with addons in other games that have lead me to be so against them. It doesn't really have much to do with the UI.

I think that there are only X number of programmers working at ZOS.
I think that there are many issues that need to be addressed in the game.
I think that there aren't enough programmers working at ZOS to fix everything by next week.
I think that some fixes have a higher priority than others.
I think that by allowing addons to fix UI issues, they can redirect their focus to other issues.

Is any of what I listed above wrong?

If you were a player that could not progress in the main quest (and therefore, could not access veteran content), would you think it was ok if ZOS put out a statement saying "we're going to stop working on all quest breaking bugs, and focus instead on adding UI features to the game for the foreseeable future."?

Carnage2K4 · May 2014

Blackwidow wrote: »

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Carnage2K4 wrote: »

Blackwidow wrote: »

Dev wrote: »

snip

I know what you are trying to say. The only point I was making is the terms are synonyms.

Then your point is wrong... it's that easy.

Agree to disagree.

http://www.techdictionary.com/search_action.lasso

mod
modify; (to mod) to alter or customize a commercial product (usually computer related) with the intent of enhancing performance or appearance.
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Add-on is a software component that adds a specific feature to an existing software application

Modification is the alteration of the program code of a video game in order to make it operate in a manner different from its original version.

Those are one definition.

There are apparently many definitions.

Thing is, everytime I go to tech sites, they disagree with you.

Now if there is some official tech site definition you want to link to me, i would be more than happy to read it.

Otherwise it is just your opinion, vs everything I have read online.
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Synonym is a word having the same or nearly the same meaning as another in the language.

I am well aware.

No, I think I'll just stick to "you're wrong"...
You gave a very nice definition for 'Mod' fantastic, it's basically the same as the definition I provided, modify to alter etc, so I totally agree... but I see you argued your "point" void of a particular bit of information... what an addon is in this apparently "me Vs the internet" scenario... again.. and addon is an addition it "adds" (addition) "on"... not modify, 'in addition of'... so yeah... One does not really need a "tech site" as it's just basic English meanings... dictionary.com can fulfil your site needs.

Blackwolfe5 · May 2014

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

phairdon wrote: »

This will make people against add ons laugh. Have a couple and the latest patch has made them invalid.

Just check the box in the addon menu to load outdated addons

Blackwidow · May 2014

No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.

Carnage2K4 wrote: »

No, I think I'll just stick to "you're wrong"...

That's what agree to disagree means.

I agree you are wrong, you agree I am wrong. We can't change each others minds, so we stop fighting about it and say, have a nice day.

JessieColt · May 2014

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

Jeremy wrote: »

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Ciarán wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Ciarán wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

magic_is_might wrote: »

Wow... Improving functionality = advantageous? You'd have to be a crappy player if having better navigation of a games UI and in-game menus gives me an advantage over you.

That is probably the lamest and weakest reason against addons. Oh no, I can filter my inventory better. Somehow that gives me an advantage.

You are grasping.

This will be my last post for the day

It's not grasping to suggest a more functional and efficient UI is advantageous. I would consider that common sense.

If there was no advantage/benefit (which ever word you prefer) to these types of addons then no one would want them to begin with.

It's mostly the addons that give gameplay advantages I have a problem with. UI customization is alright.

No matter how nice or pretty the UI is, there will always be people who want to change it to suit their own personal tastes. There will be people who want to be able to rearrange everything. Maybe they want a percentage number instead of a bar or to use a different font, or what-have-you. This is because everybody has different tastes and preferences.

To say that people want addons simply because of the advantage/benefit they bestow is simply naive - people will want what they want, for a multitude of reasons. Some will want to make the UI even more minimalistic to improve immersion. Some just want changes made for aesthetic purposes. Some people want to be able to have rainbow colored text when they type in chat. They do not have to confer any sort of advantage or benefit; it just gives them a better player experience.
.

Well first I was self centered. Then I was a crappy player. Not I am naïve because I said addons give players advantages

What ever the reasons are that player may want a certain addon, they still offer the player advantages. That's just the simple truth. And its time you and others stop being so defensive about this and just admit that plain and basic fact.

Now rather they are unfair or not is a different discussion and I would have to judge that on a case by case basis. I have seen addons that were unfair. I have seen addons that weren't.

A few things. First, your assertion that I and others need to "stop being so defensive" is, quite frankly, unfair and a bit arrogant. Don't try assume the moral high ground here. Also, I did not say you were naive for saying addons give people an advantage. I said it was naive to claim people only wanted addons because they gave an advantage, i.e. if they gave no advantages then nobody would want them.

Second, I had more than one point in that post. Which, even with your cherry picking, you did not address anything in my post. You just reasserted your claim. So let me reiterate: Before a meaningful middle ground or any form of mutual understanding can be reached, a single set of terminology needs to be agreed upon. What constitutes something that alters gameplay? What does not? Additionally, you keep throwing around the word "advantage". I would argue that, in order for an add-on to provide a player an advantage, the use of that add on would need to put other players at a disadvantage.

So now I am arrogant as well as naïve ^^

Again, addons offer players advantages over the current systems. That is one of the reasons they are used by players in the first place. Sometimes they may offer significant advantages over other players not using these addons as well. But not always.

Some of this is subjective. But yes, I do believe people including yourself are being far too defensive about the word advantage and reading way too much in to it. I don't see that as arrogance. I just think you are misjudging what I intend by using the word.

Something that alters gameplay would be an addon that allows you to do things with your character you could not otherwise do.

I think the main issue is with your chosen terminology, and not your actual position on the issue.

Add-ons in TESO are a convenience, not a true "advantage".

Sure, I *COULD* run to a crafting station constantly to check on when my researching will be done, but it is more convenient to have an add on that pops up on demand to show me.

Sure I *COULD* run to a Crafting station constantly to check to see if I an make a requested item for one of my guildmates, or keep a Text Notepad open on my computer to Alt-Tab to see if I have researched that trait. But it is far more convenient to view all of that information courtesy of an add-on where I can view that information on demand, in the game, without having to thumb through pages of paper on my desk, or leave them game to check.

Sure I *COULD* spend half of my time in a new city opening and closing the map to try to figure out which direction I need to run, but it is more convenient to be able to glance at a Mini-Map to orient myself.

Add-Ons in TESO do not impart a true advantage to players who use them. There is no benefit over other players.

They provide a convenience by showing what IS ALREADY AVAILABLE in the game in an easier manner.

Or, like in the case of Guild Store Search, they compensate for the lack of a robust feature that isn't in the game.

Even still, add-ons like Guild Store Search are a convenience item only, by collating the information that is already there.

The only true "advantage" that the current crop of add-ons impart is a vast reduction in time in pulling that information up.

Jeremy · May 2014

No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.

Ciarán wrote: »

show previous quotes

Jeremy wrote: »

Ciarán wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Ciarán wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

magic_is_might wrote: »

Wow... Improving functionality = advantageous? You'd have to be a crappy player if having better navigation of a games UI and in-game menus gives me an advantage over you.

That is probably the lamest and weakest reason against addons. Oh no, I can filter my inventory better. Somehow that gives me an advantage.

You are grasping.

This will be my last post for the day

It's not grasping to suggest a more functional and efficient UI is advantageous. I would consider that common sense.

If there was no advantage/benefit (which ever word you prefer) to these types of addons then no one would want them to begin with.

It's mostly the addons that give gameplay advantages I have a problem with. UI customization is alright.

No matter how nice or pretty the UI is, there will always be people who want to change it to suit their own personal tastes. There will be people who want to be able to rearrange everything. Maybe they want a percentage number instead of a bar or to use a different font, or what-have-you. This is because everybody has different tastes and preferences.

To say that people want addons simply because of the advantage/benefit they bestow is simply naive - people will want what they want, for a multitude of reasons. Some will want to make the UI even more minimalistic to improve immersion. Some just want changes made for aesthetic purposes. Some people want to be able to have rainbow colored text when they type in chat. They do not have to confer any sort of advantage or benefit; it just gives them a better player experience.
.

Well first I was self centered. Then I was a crappy player. Not I am naïve because I said addons give players advantages

What ever the reasons are that player may want a certain addon, they still offer the player advantages. That's just the simple truth. And its time you and others stop being so defensive about this and just admit that plain and basic fact.

Now rather they are unfair or not is a different discussion and I would have to judge that on a case by case basis. I have seen addons that were unfair. I have seen addons that weren't.

A few things. First, your assertion that I and others need to "stop being so defensive" is, quite frankly, unfair and a bit arrogant. Don't try assume the moral high ground here. Also, I did not say you were naive for saying addons give people an advantage. I said it was naive to claim people only wanted addons because they gave an advantage, i.e. if they gave no advantages then nobody would want them.

Second, I had more than one point in that post. Which, even with your cherry picking, you did not address anything in my post. You just reasserted your claim. So let me reiterate: Before a meaningful middle ground or any form of mutual understanding can be reached, a single set of terminology needs to be agreed upon. What constitutes something that alters gameplay? What does not? Additionally, you keep throwing around the word "advantage". I would argue that, in order for an add-on to provide a player an advantage, the use of that add on would need to put other players at a disadvantage.

So now I am arrogant as well as naïve ^^

Again, addons offer players advantages over the current systems. That is one of the reasons they are used by players in the first place. Sometimes they may offer significant advantages over other players not using these addons as well. But not always.

Some of this is subjective. But yes, I do believe people including yourself are being far too defensive about the word advantage and reading way too much in to it. I don't see that as arrogance. I just think you are misjudging what I intend by using the word.

Something that alters gameplay would be an addon that allows you to do things with your character you could not otherwise do.

I should have mentioned it in my earlier post, but I truly do not mean to insult you or claim that you are naive or arrogant. I apologize if any offense was taken.

In case it was not clear in my earlier posts, let me state it plainly: until we can agree upon what constitutes an advantage, what is meant by "add-on", "mod", etc, then I'm not interested in debating whether or not third party alterations should be allowed to the game. I wasn't trying to debate that in my previous posts, either - hence my surprise at the"defensive" statement. The portion of your quote that I bolded is precisely why I want those terms defined.

I would ask that you clarify exactly what you mean by advantage. We also need to come to an agreement upon terminology. Regarding the term add-on - we seem to have very different ideas as to what that means. To me, an add-on does not impact gameplay, whereas to you it does. Things that impact gameplay I would call a mod or a bot. But technically, all mods could be labeled add-ons, and vice versa. Hence the confusion, which will remain until all parties present use the same term to indicate the same thing.

Thanks for the respectful post. And no apology is necessary.

Part of the problem is the broad context of this thread's opening. The poll doesn't distinguish which addons specifically it is referring too. It also implicates those which give players advantages. So that is likely the reason these types of addons are referred in this debate.

When I say the word advantage I mean to say the addon gives the player some benefit they would not otherwise have. I didn't mean it in a derogatory way. And if you view my initial post where I used this word - it was actually an attempt on my part to be less provocative in respects to the word cheating, which I felt was too controversial.

Let me clarify my position for you:

Addons that are purely cosmetic in nature, such as different skins for your interface or menu adjustments I have no problem with. They offer advantages in terms of personalization but nothing significant.

Addons that provide UI enhancements, such as the ability to more precisely search the guild store or mark multiple locations on the map I can live with. But I do feel these types of addons give significant advantages to the players who use them in terms of convenience and quality of life options. So I would prefer mechanics like these be implemented into the official game and not relied upon by outside sources

Addons that allow the player to be more effective in battle, such as spell detections/warning systems/instant targeting/complex macros etc. I strongly oppose. These sorts of addons do significantly disadvantage other players who do not use them. They also lead to gameplay imbalances, especially in regards to PvP.

This is why generally I am opposed to allowing addons.

Now if ESO is able to keep their impact to a minimal I may soften my position on this. But I am very skeptical that's going to happen - and I fully expect addons to eventually start dominating this game. I could be wrong. We'll see.

Apologies for the lengthy reply. But I felt your post was worthy of a detailed response

Jeremy · May 2014

No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.

Talmet wrote: »

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Jeremy wrote: »

Talmet wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Talmet wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

PhoenixWing wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

PhoenixWing wrote: »

P.S. @ZeroInspiration‌ I think that add-on don't work anymore since the patch that stop allowing you to teleport to yourself.

link:
http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info224-Jumper.html

But for awhile at least it did work.

So it enabled cheating. That is proof enough right there that these add-ons can be used to cheat. Because it has already happened.

I agree with you that add-ons should not be allowed to perform features that do not exist.

However, in this case (Jumper add-on), it is the fault on Zenimax part, not the add-ons' that let this feature slipped.
Also, the fact that they fixed it confirms that they mistakenly made it available, so please do not use these bugs as an argument.

You can't just ignore that it happened for the sake of debate.

The fact remains there has already been at least one add-on that allowed players to cheat. Rather it was Zenimax's fault or not is irrelevant to my argument.

It has already happened and will happen again. It's a legitimate concern and shouldn't be mocked or discounted (I'm not saying you did).

Jumper did not provide a feature that someone who didn't have jumper did not have.

Prior to the fix, any player (both those with & without jumper), could open up their guild screen & teleport to themselves.

Jumper's only function was to save you like...10 seconds of time, so that instead of having to press G & then find your name, right click & click "teleport to player", you could just use the addon to do those things. (note, you can still do it to any other player in a guild you are a member of, the fix was that you can't go to yourself anymore.) (note, I never used jumper, as I rarely want to teleport to the closest wayshrine...instead I just teleport to another guild member in the same zone, which usually puts me back in a city with merchants/crafting/etc).

There was nothing that the addon did, that could not be easily done by someone who did not have the addon.

So...no, there has not been an instance of an addon that provided a feature that did not exist in the game for ESO yet.

As to the whole..."ESO dev's are lazy" nonsense.....no, they just have other priorities.

Do I want a search function for the guild store? Yes.
Do I want ZOS to take a programmer off of fixing quest breaking bugs, and have them work on the guild store UI instead? No.

The problem here is, that many of you seem to believe that ZOS has infinite resources & personnel. They don't...they have to prioritize where to spend their time.

UI fixes are important, so are breaking botting programs, fixing bugs, preparing to move the EU servers actually to EU, finishing content that was promised (i.e. dark brotherhood, crime system, thieves guild, housing, etc), and many many other things. ZOS does not have the money or the personnel to have hundreds of programmers working on everything at once (no company does), so they have to prioritize.

You may disagree with their priorities, but claiming that a company is lazy because they put something you care about lower on the priority list than you would prefer is rather self-centered.

I don't ever remember claiming the company is lazy. But I will, at least when it comes to certain things. And I do believe an over-reliance on addons is at least partly to blame in this regard.

The guild store interface for example is sloppy and lazily put together. It's barely usable in fact. And pointing that out doesn't mean I'm self-centered. It just means I can recognize lazy design.

I like this game. But I'm not going to excuse their mistakes simply because they don't have infinite resources and personal like you seem to suggest. Because no company has infinite resources and personal. That's a cop out and be used to justify anything.

Many people in this thread have stated that ZOS is lazy.

I was not really talking about the viewpoint behind the complaints in this thread, but with the manner the complaints are made...

I agree, with addons, the game dev's can shelve pretty much all UI concerns & focus on other things. If you believe that they should shelve other concerns & focus on the UI instead, that's fine....I disagree, & apparently so do the dev's.

If you want the dev's to actually switch their priorities & work on the UI, then you should provide reasons other than just telling them it's a cop out. Provide reasons, and not just because "the UI is important" or because "I want you to". Why is fixing the UI more important (not just to you, but to the entire game) than <insert some other feature that you believe should be shelved>?....they are a business, if people gave them reasons why fixing the UI would make more business sense then adding new content or fixing bugs, they'd be more likely to do it than if people just call them lazy.

Prior to SWTOR's launch, there was an interview with one of the head dev's where he talked about how people complaining about specific content not being included in a game was basically ignored by every dev in the industry...because they can't do everything, and complaints never take that into account. It is always just "WHAT? THERE ISN'T HOUSING?!?!? THIS GAME WILL FAIL!!!!" If you want game dev's to actually listen to your complaints, take into account that there are only X number of programmers working for the company, if you want some new feature added, then some other feature will have fewer programmers working on it & will not be done as quickly/well/etc...

Our basic disagreement seems to be you think its ok for the developers to rely on addons to provide a quality and customizable interface and I don't. And as you say that's fine and people disagree.

That being said though, it's mostly my past experiences with addons in other games that have lead me to be so against them. It doesn't really have much to do with the UI.

I think that there are only X number of programmers working at ZOS.
I think that there are many issues that need to be addressed in the game.
I think that there aren't enough programmers working at ZOS to fix everything by next week.
I think that some fixes have a higher priority than others.
I think that by allowing addons to fix UI issues, they can redirect their focus to other issues.

Is any of what I listed above wrong?

If you were a player that could not progress in the main quest (and therefore, could not access veteran content), would you think it was ok if ZOS put out a statement saying "we're going to stop working on all quest breaking bugs, and focus instead on adding UI features to the game for the foreseeable future."?

Some of the UI in this game - such as the guild store - is just atrocious. That should be a priority of there's, at least in my opinion. And relying on addons to do that for them is a mistake. Again, at least in my opinion.

We can disagree about what their priorities should be. But I do believe an effective UI is crucial to providing a quality game. And to delegate such an important aspect over to addons is a foolish decision from my perspective.

sevcik.miroslaveb17_ESO · May 2014

No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.

I voted no, because I never liked any multyplayer game to allow using different software than pure game and official patches. I know there are several harmless addons there, but still I prefer clean game.

Sooner or later we may see addons with huge icons screaming at you that your ulti is ready, that you are low on stamina, mana etc. Even worse it may warn you enemy has ulti ready and what skill are they using etc... I just saw way too much of this crap in WoW. So I might be paranoid now.

JessieColt · May 2014

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

Jeremy wrote: »

Our basic disagreement seems to be you think its ok for the developers to rely on addons to provide a quality and customizable interface and I don't. And as you say that's fine and people disagree.

That being said though, it's mostly my past experiences with addons in other games that have lead me to be so against them. It doesn't really have much to do with the UI.

Quality and Customization are an EXCELLENT way for a company to address personalization issues/wants/desires by the users.

And I personally think ZeniMax did this one thing right from the start, by allowing those types of Add-Ons in an MMO.

ZeniMax cannot cater to every player's desire for how they want UI Customization. It is not possible. It will never be possible, and any company who tries to do so will lose more users because, as others have said, resources are finite.

You cannot dedicate resources to the UI without either spending more money to hire and train more people, or take resources away from core functionality issues to move them to UI tweaks.

I, and based on a lot of the comments in the thread from others, would rather see ZeniMax dedicate resources to addressing real issues in the game, than trying to please users with tweaks to the UI that serve no other purpose than to more conveniently expose information that is already available to everyone in the game.

Sure, there are add-ons that should not be necessary. Guild Store Search? ZeniMax really screwed that one up by not dedicating more resources to building a more robust Guild Store interface, but until the time comes when they can dedicate some of their finite resources to fixing the issue, the add-on is perfectly capable of filling in the gaps.

There is a real, and massive, difference between Add-Ons/UI Mods and Hacks.

TESO does not allow hacks. Bots use hacks, and ZeniMax is fighting a hard battle to deal with those accounts/characters with the finite resources they have available to address the issue.

Hacks exist in every single on line game, and none of them are allowed, encouraged, or accepted by the game developer.

But we are not talking about hacks.

We are talking about Add-Ons and UI Mods. Convenience items that change the look, or where the information is presented to the user.

Disallowing add-ons wont stop the hacks/cheaters because they do not enter the game through the same process that permits the Add-Ons.

Add-Ons use an API to collate information that is made available by the game developers.

ZeniMax controls what information the API makes available to Add On developers.

So ZeniMax does, in a very directly way, control what Add-On makers have access to in the game, and what they can, and more importantly what they cannot, do with their add on.

Phaedryn · May 2014

sevcik.miroslaveb17_ESO wrote: »

I voted no, because I never liked any multyplayer game to allow using different software than pure game and official patches. I know there are several harmless addons there, but still I prefer clean game.

Sooner or later we may see addons with huge icons screaming at you that your ulti is ready, that you are low on stamina, mana etc. Even worse it may warn you enemy has ulti ready and what skill are they using etc... I just saw way too much of this crap in WoW. So I might be paranoid now.

We already have these addons (bolded part)...

Jeremy · May 2014

No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.

JessieColtub17_ESO wrote: »

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Jeremy wrote: »

Ciarán wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Ciarán wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

magic_is_might wrote: »

Wow... Improving functionality = advantageous? You'd have to be a crappy player if having better navigation of a games UI and in-game menus gives me an advantage over you.

That is probably the lamest and weakest reason against addons. Oh no, I can filter my inventory better. Somehow that gives me an advantage.

You are grasping.

This will be my last post for the day

It's not grasping to suggest a more functional and efficient UI is advantageous. I would consider that common sense.

If there was no advantage/benefit (which ever word you prefer) to these types of addons then no one would want them to begin with.

It's mostly the addons that give gameplay advantages I have a problem with. UI customization is alright.

No matter how nice or pretty the UI is, there will always be people who want to change it to suit their own personal tastes. There will be people who want to be able to rearrange everything. Maybe they want a percentage number instead of a bar or to use a different font, or what-have-you. This is because everybody has different tastes and preferences.

To say that people want addons simply because of the advantage/benefit they bestow is simply naive - people will want what they want, for a multitude of reasons. Some will want to make the UI even more minimalistic to improve immersion. Some just want changes made for aesthetic purposes. Some people want to be able to have rainbow colored text when they type in chat. They do not have to confer any sort of advantage or benefit; it just gives them a better player experience.
.

Well first I was self centered. Then I was a crappy player. Not I am naïve because I said addons give players advantages

What ever the reasons are that player may want a certain addon, they still offer the player advantages. That's just the simple truth. And its time you and others stop being so defensive about this and just admit that plain and basic fact.

Now rather they are unfair or not is a different discussion and I would have to judge that on a case by case basis. I have seen addons that were unfair. I have seen addons that weren't.

A few things. First, your assertion that I and others need to "stop being so defensive" is, quite frankly, unfair and a bit arrogant. Don't try assume the moral high ground here. Also, I did not say you were naive for saying addons give people an advantage. I said it was naive to claim people only wanted addons because they gave an advantage, i.e. if they gave no advantages then nobody would want them.

Second, I had more than one point in that post. Which, even with your cherry picking, you did not address anything in my post. You just reasserted your claim. So let me reiterate: Before a meaningful middle ground or any form of mutual understanding can be reached, a single set of terminology needs to be agreed upon. What constitutes something that alters gameplay? What does not? Additionally, you keep throwing around the word "advantage". I would argue that, in order for an add-on to provide a player an advantage, the use of that add on would need to put other players at a disadvantage.

So now I am arrogant as well as naïve ^^

Again, addons offer players advantages over the current systems. That is one of the reasons they are used by players in the first place. Sometimes they may offer significant advantages over other players not using these addons as well. But not always.

Some of this is subjective. But yes, I do believe people including yourself are being far too defensive about the word advantage and reading way too much in to it. I don't see that as arrogance. I just think you are misjudging what I intend by using the word.

Something that alters gameplay would be an addon that allows you to do things with your character you could not otherwise do.

I think the main issue is with your chosen terminology, and not your actual position on the issue.

Add-ons in TESO are a convenience, not a true "advantage".

Sure, I *COULD* run to a crafting station constantly to check on when my researching will be done, but it is more convenient to have an add on that pops up on demand to show me.

Sure I *COULD* run to a Crafting station constantly to check to see if I an make a requested item for one of my guildmates, or keep a Text Notepad open on my computer to Alt-Tab to see if I have researched that trait. But it is far more convenient to view all of that information courtesy of an add-on where I can view that information on demand, in the game, without having to thumb through pages of paper on my desk, or leave them game to check.

Sure I *COULD* spend half of my time in a new city opening and closing the map to try to figure out which direction I need to run, but it is more convenient to be able to glance at a Mini-Map to orient myself.

Add-Ons in TESO do not impart a true advantage to players who use them. There is no benefit over other players.

They provide a convenience by showing what IS ALREADY AVAILABLE in the game in an easier manner.

Or, like in the case of Guild Store Search, they compensate for the lack of a robust feature that isn't in the game.

Even still, add-ons like Guild Store Search are a convenience item only, by collating the information that is already there.

The only true "advantage" that the current crop of add-ons impart is a vast reduction in time in pulling that information up.

Yeah it turned into a semantics debate about what the word advantage means.

I tried several times to clarify that many of these addons do not give advantages over other players in a competitive sense. But perhaps that was too vague.

In any case, we should be able to agree that many of those features you listed give you a benefit you would not otherwise have without addons. Rather it can be described as an advantage or not really isn't important and has been a distraction.

LadyDestiny · May 2014

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

I voted yes, and to each his own. Add ons do not give a player any advantage over another. It won't affect another player if you are using them. It's just appearance sake, spam filtering and some Improvement to the atrocious UI etc..... Got to have my lorebooks and skyshards

Tannakaobi · May 2014

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

Rocksteady wrote: »

I vote indifference as long as they're limited a little so people can't get too crazy with them. One example being in WoW, most people expect you to have certain addons to do your job. A customizable UI should be where it ends in my opinion but I don't bother with them either way.

This is a Myth, I played WoW for the better part of Six years, I was a tank, a healer and DPS. I ran PVP I ran dungeons. A did a little raiding. Not once was I asked if I had X add-on to continue in a group. Not once.

JessieColt · May 2014

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

Blackwidow wrote: »

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cliveklgb14_ESO wrote: »

Except the mod architecture doesn't allow for that. So your point is moot.

No, it was an example. Let the concept wash over you.
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Same with your lumping bot programs that have nothing to do with mod architecture, with addons.

I have never said the word bot one time in this whole thread.
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If something unexpected happens they didn't intend, they can and will likely fix it.

You think that if a mod screws up our game, ZOS will fix it? Please show me any reason for believing that other than blind faith in ZOS.
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But that is their decision on what they find acceptable, not yours. And clearly, they don't agree with you, as most responses.

And so we end up with you unable to find a single example of a mod that allows people to cheat by ZOS's definitions, in the addons.

I think they do see it as a cheat, but they know that it would be futile to stop it because the information is on websites anyway, so they let it in game.
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No you do it whenever people present facts you can't rebut.

Right. That is why I am not here arguing my side.

It is a shame when I say, "okay guys we don't agree, let's just let it go", and you still want to ask me questions like you have to change my mind.

Look guys. You want me to say you win? Will that make you feel all macho?

You win.

Have a nice day.

Let me guess you will say something immature next. Probably that I'm being passive aggressive.

First, ZeniMax doesn't see it as a cheat, or they wouldn't have allowed the use of Add-Ons and UI Mods in the game.

And no, if an add-on/UI Mod breaks, it is up to the person who created it to fix it. ZeniMax didn't write the code, ZeniMax isn't responsible for the code.

But you read the words, but didn't understand what was being said.

If ZeniMax finds something in the API that allows an Add-On Maker to do something that ZeniMax does not approve of, ZeniMax will fix it. Meaning they will change what information is exposed in the API, thus breaking, forever, the add-on.

This thread conversation isn't about winning, or losing, or who is right, and who is wrong.

The fact of the matter is that ZeniMax openly allows add-ons that are convenience items to the player base, while preventing the add-ons from imparting some kind of real "winning" advantage to players who use them over players who do not.

These add-ons are not cheats or hacks.

Jeremy · May 2014

No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.

sevcik.miroslaveb17_ESO wrote: »

I voted no, because I never liked any multyplayer game to allow using different software than pure game and official patches. I know there are several harmless addons there, but still I prefer clean game.

Sooner or later we may see addons with huge icons screaming at you that your ulti is ready, that you are low on stamina, mana etc. Even worse it may warn you enemy has ulti ready and what skill are they using etc... I just saw way too much of this crap in WoW. So I might be paranoid now.

Good post and pretty much echoes how I feel about this.

WoW definitely left me paranoid about addons... possibly even a little traumatized. I would loath to see that kind of environment make its way into ESO.

stefaan.de.wasch1b16_ESO · May 2014

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

Ofcourse Addons should be allowed....

And for those saying "some addons allow people to cheat" ... euh... doesn't aren't called "addons" but "cheats" now aren't they ?