Should add-ons be allowed?
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magic_is_might✭✭✭Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.Wow... Improving functionality = advantageous? You'd have to be a crappy player if having better navigation of a games UI and in-game menus gives me an advantage over you.
That is probably the lamest and weakest reason against addons. Oh no, I can filter my inventory better. Somehow that gives me an advantage.
You are grasping.Edited by magic_is_might on May 22, 2014 6:41PMSienna Nightsky | Aldmeri Dominion | Nightblade Woodelf1 -
DragonMother✭✭✭Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.There are limits of what ZOS desires of the addon community and addon developers. There is no reason someone should call addon useage cheating, when they use information websites to help find the proper quest locations, items, and gear in-game. If you want to call out cheating, call out those folks.
Demi, Adult female, Guild leader, Roleplayer & TES enthusiastStatus: Inactive until further notice.
I trust my instincts, more than I trust other peoples opinions.
Four years, and still present. Sanguine still lives.0 -
Talmet✭✭✭Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.
I don't ever remember claiming the company is lazy. But I will, at least when it comes to certain things. And I do believe an over-reliance on addons is at least partly to blame in this regard.
The guild store interface for example is sloppy and lazily put together. It's barely usable in fact. And pointing that out doesn't mean I'm self-centered. It just means I can recognize lazy design.
I like this game. But I'm not going to excuse their mistakes simply because they don't have infinite resources and personal like you seem to suggest. Because no company has infinite resources and personal. That's a cop out and be used to justify anything.
Many people in this thread have stated that ZOS is lazy.
I was not really talking about the viewpoint behind the complaints in this thread, but with the manner the complaints are made...
I agree, with addons, the game dev's can shelve pretty much all UI concerns & focus on other things. If you believe that they should shelve other concerns & focus on the UI instead, that's fine....I disagree, & apparently so do the dev's.
If you want the dev's to actually switch their priorities & work on the UI, then you should provide reasons other than just telling them it's a cop out. Provide reasons, and not just because "the UI is important" or because "I want you to". Why is fixing the UI more important (not just to you, but to the entire game) than <insert some other feature that you believe should be shelved>?....they are a business, if people gave them reasons why fixing the UI would make more business sense then adding new content or fixing bugs, they'd be more likely to do it than if people just call them lazy.
Prior to SWTOR's launch, there was an interview with one of the head dev's where he talked about how people complaining about specific content not being included in a game was basically ignored by every dev in the industry...because they can't do everything, and complaints never take that into account. It is always just "WHAT? THERE ISN'T HOUSING?!?!? THIS GAME WILL FAIL!!!!" If you want game dev's to actually listen to your complaints, take into account that there are only X number of programmers working for the company, if you want some new feature added, then some other feature will have fewer programmers working on it & will not be done as quickly/well/etc...1 -
Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.81% to 18%. This thread is the perfect example of the vocal minority. 11 pages of argument when the overwhelming majority are in favor of keeping it the way it is.
However, forums are not indicative of a "majority" within a game's population. Would be interesting to see where EVERYONE stands on this. I would say most players don't ever login or post to these forums and have no idea this poll even exists.
Edited by xramirez535b14_ESO on May 22, 2014 6:47PM1 -
Shillen✭✭✭Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.xramirez535b14_ESO wrote: »
However, forums are not indicative of a "majority" within a game's population. Would be interesting to see where EVERYONE stands on this. I would say most players don't ever login or post to these forums and have no idea this poll even exists.
Keep smoking, dude.Please LOL my comments. I'm an aspiring comedian.0 -
Baraz✭✭✭Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.I have not seen any add-ons that allow me to be more powerful or efficient.
Currently, add-ons add missing UI aspects that I wish ESO would just implement (eg. easily knowing in inventory and crafting windows what items traits have been already researched; current time; horse feed countdown; optional minimap).
ABOVE ALL, our characters should know when they are affected by a debuff or effect (Stun, Fear, weakness, etc.). Note this info is disallowed even by add-ons, whereas your character would logically, in-game, be aware of it.Edited by Baraz on May 22, 2014 6:49PM- Baraz, crewmember of The Shipwrecked Pirates0 -
magic_is_might✭✭✭Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.xramirez535b14_ESO wrote: »
However, forums are not indicative of a "majority" within a game's population. Would be interesting to see where EVERYONE stands on this. I would say most players don't ever login or post to these forums and have no idea this poll even exists.
I'd hazard a guess and say that most players who don't go to the forums are fine and/or use add-ons. The only time I've ever seen people voice dissent against them are in this thread and have very weak excuses against them. They do not hold up and most people know that.Sienna Nightsky | Aldmeri Dominion | Nightblade Woodelf0 -
Reignskream✭✭✭✭Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.magic_is_might wrote: »
I'd hazard a guess and say that most players who don't go to the forums are fine and/or use add-ons. The only time I've ever seen people voice dissent against them are in this thread and have very weak excuses against them. They do not hold up and most people know that.
All i've seen the nay-sayers do was go to google/yahoo search and bring up defintions and quotes.1 -
OrangeTheCat✭✭✭✭✭
✭No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.I voted "no" because even though I do think add-ons should be allowed, what we have ended up with to a great extent are things that make up for Zen's unfinished work. E.g., guild store search, armor sets, etc. Zen should provide "native" UI for that.1 -
Psychotius✭✭✭Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.A must have, one of the best reasons to play on computer. They make life easier.
While they do provide an advantage, you can hardly consider it an unfair advantage. Considering anyone and their mother can access and use an add-on.I'm not as am as you drunk I think.0 -
Talmet✭✭✭Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.
Keep smoking, dude.
He's actually completely correct...very few players ever go to the forums....
A long long time ago, blizzard gave out some stats on players and such...it was something like only 5-10% of their subscribers had ever logged into their forums.1 -
magic_is_might✭✭✭Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.Reignskream wrote: »
All i've seen the nay-sayers do was go to google/yahoo search and bring up defintions and quotes.
And their reasons against add-ons are based on misinformation about what they are and stupid reasons such as claiming that being able to see nodes are "cheating". Also they usually cite how they let people automate activities. Where that's usaually 3rd party software (read - NOT addons) and would happen with or without addons.Sienna Nightsky | Aldmeri Dominion | Nightblade Woodelf3 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.magic_is_might wrote: »Wow... Improving functionality = advantageous? You'd have to be a crappy player if having better navigation of a games UI and in-game menus gives me an advantage over you.
That is probably the lamest and weakest reason against addons. Oh no, I can filter my inventory better. Somehow that gives me an advantage.
You are grasping.
It's not grasping to suggest a more functional and efficient UI is advantageous. I would consider that common sense.
If there was no advantage/benefit (which ever word you prefer) to these types of addons then no one would want them to begin with.
It's mostly the addons that give gameplay advantages I have a problem with. UI customization is alright.
Edited by Jeremy on May 22, 2014 8:09PM0 -
seaef✭✭✭✭✭Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.Cheating? Only for those poor misguided souls who think you can "win" at playing an MMO.
Of course, for PvP that may be different, but then I could care less about PvP.
To the PvE crowd....mind your own damn business. It's allowed, so I'll play the way I want to play."The Illuminati are very achievement focused. It's like Xbox - only everything is hardcore."
- Kirsten Geary3 -
Kiwi✭✭✭✭Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.i dont see how it has any effect on anyone other then the person using them.
some people just want to complain about anything and everything, regardless of how ridiculous their argument is.A large yellow rectangle
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magic_is_might✭✭✭Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.
This will be my last post for the day
It's not grasping to suggest a more functional and efficient UI is advantageous. I would consider that common sense.
If there was no advantage/benefit (which ever word you prefer) to these types of addons then no one would want them to begin with.
It's mostly the addons that give gameplay advantages I have a problem with. UI customization is alright.I would consider addons that improve functionality advantageous Thomas. If they were of no use why would you even want them to being with? So I think we may be getting bogged down in the semantics about what the word advantage means.
Okay. I still do not get how having a more efficient UI is more advantageous. You're still privy to the exact information you should already be seeing. I have yet to see a single thing named that gives me more advantage. Is it me seeing my damage output? Does that make it unfair for the other person? Unless the addon is changing my damage output or changing any other info I see on screen, I receive no more benefit than the other person.
Advantage of ME seeing this information on screen does NOT translate to any visible advantage in-game. I like seeing how much gold I have on-screen, with the use of an add-on. Tell me how this gives me an advantage in the actual game. You can't. Because you're grasping at nothing.
Because add-ons are about personalization. They have ZERO effect on other players. Stop pretending as if knowing how much time I have left on my research timer is unfair to other players. End of.Edited by magic_is_might on May 22, 2014 7:12PMSienna Nightsky | Aldmeri Dominion | Nightblade Woodelf2 -
CiaránSoul ShrivenYes. They're part of what makes this game great.
This will be my last post for the day
It's not grasping to suggest a more functional and efficient UI is advantageous. I would consider that common sense.
If there was no advantage/benefit (which ever word you prefer) to these types of addons then no one would want them to begin with.
It's mostly the addons that give gameplay advantages I have a problem with. UI customization is alright.
No matter how nice or pretty the UI is, there will always be people who want to change it to suit their own personal tastes. There will be people who want to be able to rearrange everything. Maybe they want a percentage number instead of a bar or to use a different font, or what-have-you. This is because everybody has different tastes and preferences.
To say that people want addons simply because of the advantage/benefit they bestow is simply naive - people will want what they want, for a multitude of reasons. Some will want to make the UI even more minimalistic to improve immersion. Some just want changes made for aesthetic purposes. Some people want to be able to have rainbow colored text when they type in chat. They do not have to confer any sort of advantage or benefit; it just gives them a better player experience.
The intrinsic problem with this thread and poll is a problem with semantics. What is an add-on, what is a mod, what impacts gameplay, what does not - a consensus needs to be reached answering these questions. How can middle ground be reached if we are not even discussing the same things?
And once a consensus is reached, then we can begin debating the merits of third party alterations which do not affect gameplay. There is no point debating whether or not alterations which do affect gameplay, such as ones that allow you to automate actions normally taken by the player (such as automatically casting skills for you, picking locks on chests for you, or allowing your character to run around killing monsters with minimal or zero actual player interaction) as Zenimax has made their stance quite clear on those. They will not be allowed.1 -
Orizuru✭✭✭Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.david271749 wrote: »Please state why you voted yes or no below.
I see no reason to stop the modding community from doing their thing just because a few people believe everything they read on the internet.
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Insignia91✭✭✭Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.I see no addon that will allow you to "cheat". Also how do you cheat in a MMO?1 -
joshua.benjamin84b14_ESOSoul ShrivenI get that the same types of mods that people use in Skyrim, Oblivion, and Morrowind would be unfair in ESO. Being able to open a console and set all your stats to god like levels and give yourself gear that has unbelievably insane stats would be game breaking. But those are not the types of addons used in ESO. We get simple add ons to show things like experience points and what time it is in the real world and how long you have left to research whatever traits you're currently researching. We do NOT get crazy gear and flying mods and buster swords from Final Fantasy VII to swing around. There are no dual wielding two handed weapon mods available. Those types of things would be considered cheating and have no place in MMO's. Finding a location where a harvesting node MAY be located doesn't affect others at all.1
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Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.magic_is_might wrote: »
Okay. I still do not get how having a more efficient UI is more advantageous. You're still privy to the exact information you should already be seeing. I have yet to see a single thing named that gives me more advantage. Is it me seeing my damage output? Does that make it unfair for the other person? Unless the addon is changing my damage output or changing any other info I see on screen, I receive no more benefit than the other person.
Advantage of ME seeing this information on screen does NOT translate to any visible advantage in-game. I like seeing how much gold I have on-screen, with the use of an add-on. Tell me how this gives me an advantage in the actual game. You can't. Because you're grasping at nothing.
Because add-ons are about personalization. They have ZERO effect on other players. Stop pretending as if knowing how much time I have left on my research timer is unfair to other players. End of.
Ok I guess I will try this one again since you are insisting.
They offer you advantages because they increase the performance of the UI, allowing you options you would not otherwise have. So they are advantages over the old UI.
And I never said they were unfair. In fact I have said countless times already I don't really have a problem with these types of UI addons. So it's you are really grasping at nothing - and simply making up things I never said.
Edited by Jeremy on May 22, 2014 8:13PM0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.
No matter how nice or pretty the UI is, there will always be people who want to change it to suit their own personal tastes. There will be people who want to be able to rearrange everything. Maybe they want a percentage number instead of a bar or to use a different font, or what-have-you. This is because everybody has different tastes and preferences.
To say that people want addons simply because of the advantage/benefit they bestow is simply naive - people will want what they want, for a multitude of reasons. Some will want to make the UI even more minimalistic to improve immersion. Some just want changes made for aesthetic purposes. Some people want to be able to have rainbow colored text when they type in chat. They do not have to confer any sort of advantage or benefit; it just gives them a better player experience.
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Well first I was self centered. Then I was a crappy player. Not I am naïve because I said addons give players advantages
What ever the reasons are that player may want a certain addon, they still offer the player advantages. Just the ability to more freely change the way your interface works is in and of itself an advantage. You and others are just too defensive about this word advantage for some reason.
Now rather they are unfair or not is a different discussion and I would have to judge that on a case by case basis. I have seen addons that were unfair. I have seen addons that weren't.
Edited by Jeremy on May 22, 2014 8:14PM0 -
flyinghorsefarmb14_ESOSoul ShrivenI like addon's. I use the ones that show your damage/healing so I can decide what I want on my bar that does the best amount for each situation. I also like the add on that lists in chat the various things that happen like loot, exp, etc. The current ui flashes those things so fast especially when fighting more then one mob it's frustrating.0
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Demli✭Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.The main reason way having add-ons is a bad idea is that the quality of the game performance will be less. With that I mean add-ons usually create more bugs, more lag and what not for the user. Having a high quality UI with allot of options for personal prefrences like they did for SWTOR is allot better way to ensure the quality of the game experience for every one is high quality.
And yes so add-ons layers too many advantages. Like those that show on the map where every skyshard and lorebook is. Just to mention two.
If it wasn't for those add-ons I would have a web browser open on another monitor with their locations... don't really see how it's cheating, just convenience. I want to get everything in one pass through a zone, if that's not how you roll then that's up to you.
I have something like 20 add-ons currently, I have the UI just the way I want it, with more information on the screen that is relevant to me. (to be clear, all 20 are not constantly on my screen, some are windows I have to open, like AI Research Grid, and others are in existing information panels, like Softcap Info and Inventory Item Borders)0 -
Demli✭Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.
...Just the ability to more freely change the way your interface works is in and of itself an advantage....
An "advantage" that every player has the option to use or not... not really an advantage if everyone has access to these features.Edited by Demli on May 22, 2014 8:27PM0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.
An "advantage" that every player has the option to use or not... not really an advantage if everyone has access to these features.
Everyone has the option to take steroids. Yet I think most people would agree taking steroids gives you an advantage.
As I stated, UI options are usually harmless and I have no real problems with them outside my principled position. But if an addon gives a player a significant enough advantage to where they too must have this addon to compete effectively it becomes a real problem or me. I've seen this happen on other games I have played - especially in regards to PvP.
Edited by Jeremy on May 22, 2014 8:34PM0 -
CiaránSoul ShrivenYes. They're part of what makes this game great.
Well first I was self centered. Then I was a crappy player. Not I am naïve because I said addons give players advantages
What ever the reasons are that player may want a certain addon, they still offer the player advantages. That's just the simple truth. And its time you and others stop being so defensive about this and just admit that plain and basic fact.
Now rather they are unfair or not is a different discussion and I would have to judge that on a case by case basis. I have seen addons that were unfair. I have seen addons that weren't.
A few things. First, your assertion that I and others need to "stop being so defensive" is, quite frankly, unfair and a bit arrogant. Don't try assume the moral high ground here. Also, I did not say you were naive for saying addons give people an advantage. I said it was naive to claim people only wanted addons because they gave an advantage, i.e. if they gave no advantages then nobody would want them.
Second, I had more than one point in that post. Which, even with your cherry picking, you did not address anything in my post. You just reasserted your claim. So let me reiterate: Before a meaningful middle ground or any form of mutual understanding can be reached, a single set of terminology needs to be agreed upon. What constitutes something that alters gameplay? What does not? Additionally, you keep throwing around the word "advantage". I would argue that, in order for an add-on to provide a player an advantage, the use of that add on would need to put other players at a disadvantage.
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Blackwidow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.1) Of course addons should be allowed.
2) A lot of the addons are a sad fix for the lack of ZOS doing their job.
3) Addons do help players in the game. That is the their soul purpose.
4) There is nothing wrong with tool to make the game more user friendly.
5) IMHO, addons should not let you find stuff easier, out in the world, when the game was clearly designed for you to have to look for it.0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.
A few things. First, your assertion that I and others need to "stop being so defensive" is, quite frankly, unfair and a bit arrogant. Don't try assume the moral high ground here. Also, I did not say you were naive for saying addons give people an advantage. I said it was naive to claim people only wanted addons because they gave an advantage, i.e. if they gave no advantages then nobody would want them.
Second, I had more than one point in that post. Which, even with your cherry picking, you did not address anything in my post. You just reasserted your claim. So let me reiterate: Before a meaningful middle ground or any form of mutual understanding can be reached, a single set of terminology needs to be agreed upon. What constitutes something that alters gameplay? What does not? Additionally, you keep throwing around the word "advantage". I would argue that, in order for an add-on to provide a player an advantage, the use of that add on would need to put other players at a disadvantage.
So now I am arrogant as well as naïve ^^
Again, addons offer players advantages over the current systems. That is one of the reasons they are used by players in the first place. Sometimes they may offer significant advantages over other players not using these addons as well. But not always.
Some of this is subjective. But yes, I do believe people including yourself are being far too defensive about the word advantage and reading way too much in to it. I don't see that as arrogance. I just think you are misjudging what I intend by using the word.
Something that alters gameplay would be an addon that allows you to do things with your character you could not otherwise do.
Edited by Jeremy on May 22, 2014 8:49PM0 -
EliteZ✭✭✭Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.Blackwidow wrote: »
They have a MMO. If they don't have the programmers to make simple things that single players can do at home, we are in big trouble.
Sorry, but you're an idiot. Ever thought that what the developers, you or I might like another person out there is going to like something else. You might like the default UI, I personally don't like it and use a unit frame addon to get it looking how I want. Is Zeni suppose to make every possible UI so that everyone is happy with the box-standard game? No, they make what they think most people would like and let the others change it to suit them.
How are Zeni going to develop the UI positions so that every person likes it? You might like your compass at the top of the screen, others may prefer at the bottom again how can Zeni develop it to suit everyone?
The game shipped without a minimap, most MMO plyers, including every person I know who plays the game, wished it had a minimap, so having an add-on to provide us a small version of the map that's always visible is perfect and makes the game that much better. Is that minimap providing me any advantage at all? No, it simply let's me see the without having to pressing M every 5 seconds.
And no, there isn't a single add-on available for ESO that lets you "cheat" even in the slightest. The API is even restricted to the basic features most games would allow such as part magi, stam bars. Please, provide us with one example of an add-on that allows a player to "cheat". Zeni only allows the users to get data that they want us to get through the API which means if Zeni don't want you using the specific data/functions because it could possibly lead to cheating in the slightest, they'd remove the ability to use it.
You can't, so stop talking like you know everything just because you might not like to use add-ons.Edited by EliteZ on May 22, 2014 8:50PM0