Should add-ons be allowed?
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Morticielle✭✭✭Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.And once more the same *** discussion in a new mmorpg ...Lady Morticielle d'Aragòn |VR12| Sorcerer | PvP Rank 21 (Major Grade I) | EU-Megaserver | AD
Subscription cancelled due to the following facts:
- Zenimax implements more bugs from patch to patch
- Zenimax does not care about the increasing instability of the game. People have more and more crashes Fix of memory bug decreased number of crashes considerably
- Zenimax has still not fully fixed the fps drops they (!) implemented with patch1.2.3
- Zenimax does nothing to fix the massive ability lags in PvP
- Zenimax gives more attention to unnecassary 'content' like dyes for armors than fixing issues
- In patchnotes Zenimax lies about bugs allegedly fixed
- Zenimax has no plan as to how balance population in Cyrodiil campaigns
- Support is ineffective and does not even speak in a way one can linguistically understand0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.JessieColtub17_ESO wrote: »
And no, if an add-on/UI Mod breaks, it is up to the person who created it to fix it. ZeniMax didn't write the code, ZeniMax isn't responsible for the code.
That's part of the reason games should not rely on them for important features. They cannot be trusted, and often times provide the user with flawed codes that lead to bugs and system lag. And Zenimax has no responsibility to fix them.Edited by Jeremy on May 23, 2014 1:32PM0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.Tannakaobi wrote: »
This is a Myth, I played WoW for the better part of Six years, I was a tank, a healer and DPS. I ran PVP I ran dungeons. A did a little raiding. Not once was I asked if I had X add-on to continue in a group. Not once.
You were just lucky.
Nearly every raid I participated in demanded that I have certain addons downloaded or I wasn't allowed to participate. I even had friends kicked from groups because of it. I assure you it's no myth.Edited by Jeremy on May 23, 2014 1:36PM0 -
alphawolph✭✭✭Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.
You were just lucky.
Nearly every raid I participated in demanded that I have certain addons downloaded or I wasn't allowed to participate. I even had friends kicked from groups because of it. I assure you it's no myth.
My guild in wow requires add-ons to raid. I wouldn't have it any other way.
Edited by alphawolph on May 23, 2014 1:43PM0 -
No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.the problem with Add-ins - is lack of control
1. hacking/backdoors/cheating
2. virus and monitoring by other users
3. bugs and un-intended effects on zenimax's already working code - nerfing working stuff
what id rather see is some system that no add-ins are allowed in unless the go thru Quality control by zenimax
that means submission and testing and then getting some form of approval checksum/key that unless it has one that corresponds with that app and code ...it cannot be installed
I would like to see zenimax offer the add-ins on their website and have a small fee for each one that goes back to the original developer
this would spring up mini developers writing game code add-ins that would benefit iutside developers and zenimax - because there is profit for developers (or at leastbreak even status) and zeni gets more people writing apps and possible content in the future0 -
Nijjion✭✭✭✭Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.If they disallowed addons they would have to 'clutter' the default UI and then you would moan about it being cluttered.
Can't *** win really.NijjijjioN - DK - AR27NijjioN - NB -Daggerfall CovenantThe Nice Guys GuildEverQuest -> Dark Age of Camelot -> Ragnarok Online -> Cabal Online -> Guild Wars 1 -> Warhammer Online -> Vindictus -> SWTOR -> Tera -> Guild Wars 2 -> Elder Scrolls Online ->
Eagerly awaiting Camelot Unchained.2 -
alphawolph✭✭✭Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.ttwinklerub17_ESO wrote: »the problem with Add-ins - is lack of control
1. hacking/backdoors/cheating
2. virus and monitoring by other users
3. bugs and un-intended effects on zenimax's already working code - nerfing working stuff
what id rather see is some system that no add-ins are allowed in unless the go thru Quality control by zenimax
that means submission and testing and then getting some form of approval checksum/key that unless it has one that corresponds with that app and code ...it cannot be installed
I would like to see zenimax offer the add-ins on their website and have a small fee for each one that goes back to the original developer
this would spring up mini developers writing game code add-ins that would benefit iutside developers and zenimax - because there is profit for developers (or at leastbreak even status) and zeni gets more people writing apps and possible content in the future
I would never pay for an add-on. I'm running like 30 plus of them.0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.alphawolph wrote: »
My guild in wow requires add-ons to raid. I wouldn't have it any other way.
That was my point. They have a tendency to become required and players who do not have these addons are ostracized because of it.
We disagree about that being a good thing.1 -
zeuseason✭✭✭Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.The verdict is in, 81% say YES to addons. End of discussion. Move onto another game 18%'ers.0 -
alphawolph✭✭✭Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.
That was my point. They have a tendency to become required and players who do not have these addons are ostracized because of it.
We disagree about that being a good thing.
I know we disagree on this but I thought i would help you make your point.
Add-ons are not going any where Zen is running a featured add-on blog I think they are fine with them.
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Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.The verdict is in, 81% say YES to addons. End of discussion. Move onto another game 18%'ers.
Right, because an internet poll that probably .0001% of the population has participated in have spoken
This is actually a pretty big controversy. And while I readily admit I'm in the distinct minority on this thread - this is a real issue and there are a lot of people out there who feel similar to those of us who have voted no. Though probably not a majority I will admit to you.
-Edited by Jeremy on May 23, 2014 2:10PM0 -
They have to be fine with addons otherwise they should have given a crap about the ui.alphawolph wrote: »Add-ons are not going any where Zen is running a featured add-on blog I think they are fine with them.
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Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.alphawolph wrote: »
I know we disagree on this but I thought i would help you make your point.
Add-ons are not going any where Zen is running a featured add-on blog I think they are fine with them.
Oh. Well ty for helping me to make my point. ^^
I can't argue with you on what you say. They do seem to be very pro-addon and I don't expect them to go anywhere either. I can only hope they contain them better than other games I have played.
Edited by Jeremy on May 23, 2014 2:06PM0 -
JessieColt✭✭✭✭Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.
Good post and pretty much echoes how I feel about this.
WoW definitely left me paranoid about addons... possibly even a little traumatized. I would loath to see that kind of environment make its way into ESO.
TESO isn't WoW.
Blizzard exposed that information in their API's. ZeniMax does not.
And yes, hopefully ZeniMax learned from the screw-up that was/is WoW and learned what NOT to do when it comes to Add-Ons.
And so far, they have been spot on with what they are and are not allowing.
But your fear of what "another game" did should not translate to what this game does.
As I said, TESO is not WoW.
Edited by JessieColt on May 23, 2014 2:36PM0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.JessieColtub17_ESO wrote: »
TESO isn't WoW.
Blizzard exposed that information in their API's. ZeniMax does not.
And yes, hopefully ZeniMax learned from the screw-up that was/is WoW and learned what NOT to do when it comes to Add-Ons.
And so far, they have been spot on with what they are and are not allowing.
But your fear of what "another game" did should not translate to what this game does.
As I said, TESO is not WoW.
I never said TESO is WoW. You keep stressing something I never said. If I thought TESO was WoW I wouldn't be playing this game believe you me.
WoW does however provide insight into the kind of effects opening up a game to addons can produce. And I would be very foolish not to try and learn from my past experiences.
This game is still very new. WoW didn't have many addons a month after release either. It's way too early to be so confident that addons won't have any negative impacts on this game.0 -
JessieColt✭✭✭✭Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.
That's part of the reason games should not rely on them for important features. They cannot be trusted, and often times provide the user with flawed codes that lead to bugs and system lag. And Zenimax has no responsibility to fix them.
That is like blaming a car maker because the mechanic at Jiffy Lube screwed up your oil change and demanding that all oil changes only be allowed to be done at the dealership where you bought the car!
Sure, if you want to spend 10x as much, and wait 2+ weeks for an appointment to get an oil change, then that is your choice.
But in +90% of the cases, going to a quick change, or even doing it in your own driveway, has no detrimental affect, and is a perfectly acceptable alternative to forking over a bunch of money to a dealer, with NO GUARANTEE that something wont get screwed up.
Hell, even with the native UI and code, look at all of the complaining posts in the forums just from this most recent release.
The only "important feature" that any of the add-ons that I have seen really provide is the Guild Store Search, that allows bulk and specific text searching of stores.
All of the others are cosmetic/convenience items that provide a better place to see information that is already readily available in the game.
None of which impart any kind of "feature" that does not already exist in the game.0 -
Allyah✭✭✭No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.I prefer playing an MMO the way it was made. I don't really mind other people having them until they give them an advantage over others or alter things for others. Edit: Unfortunately most of the addons do give players an advantage over others or alter things for others. And, it is my belief that this is selfish to do.Edited by Allyah on May 23, 2014 3:12PM1 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.JessieColtub17_ESO wrote: »None of which impart any kind of "feature" that does not already exist in the game.
But they do.
The ability to mark multiple node locations on your map is a feature that does not already exist in the game. The ability to do specific searches in the guild store is a feature that does not exist in the game (to be fair you did mention this). The ability to view research times from anywhere is a feature that does not already exist in the game etc. I'll stop here to be brief.
Many many addons supply features that do not already exist in the game.
Edited by Jeremy on May 23, 2014 3:07PM0 -
JessieColt✭✭✭✭Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.
That's part of the reason games should not rely on them for important features. They cannot be trusted, and often times provide the user with flawed codes that lead to bugs and system lag. And Zenimax has no responsibility to fix them.
TESO doesn't rely on them for important features, other than, as I mentioned in previous posts, GSS, that I am aware of.
You can chose to trust, or not trust them, that is your choice.
I chose to trust them because I know that they are only allowed to do what ZeniMax allows them to do with regards to the information available through the API.
If the creator of the add-on releases buggy code, I am free to disable it / remove it from my game.
If ZeniMax released buggy code, I am screwed and stuck with it until they get around to fixing it.
Your comments seem to indicate that 1. ZeniMax should be responsible for code that they did not write, and 2. you would be forced to continue to use code that is buggy, causes lag, or otherwise impacts your game play negatively.
They are not, and you are not.
If ZeniMax adds code to the game for a Mini-Map and that Mini-Map is buggy, you and I, and the rest of the players, are stuck with it until ZeniMax fixes it, even if you never wanted a Mini-Map in the first place.
Your game playing experience is now screwed up because the game developer borked the entire system for everyone. All 50K+ users are affected by something that would have only affected 500 people, and that could have easily been remedied by disabling or removing the add-on.
If an Add-On maker releases a Mini-Map that is buggy, I can remove it, and it has no lasting affect on my game playing.
Sure, in a perfect world, adding features and functions to a game wouldn't contribute to code bloat and all game companies would have infinite resources to dedicate to all the little things that users want, even if they want 300 different abilities that apply to the same item, along with having 50+ people testing the code every which way from Sunday to make sure it works perfectly, all the time.
But this isn't a perfect world. And code bloat is a very real problem in software. Code bloat causes far more problems than it solves.
Add-ons do not contribute to code bloat. Add-ons can easily be implemented and removed, on a personal basis without affecting everyone.
Add-ons that are buggy, or cause negative impacts to the user experience for the individual player, are quickly removed and and dumped by the player base.
The Add-On maker can then chose to fix the problem, or they quickly find that their add-on has become the black sheep of the community and is boycotted.
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idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Arsenic_Touch wrote: »
Mods alter the game in ways that were not intended.
Addons unlock API functions that are already present in the game.
There's a huge difference, they are not the same.
In this discussion most people are using mod and add-on interchangeably just as they have in the million other threads on the various ESO forums.
Yes, add-ons should be allowed. It became part of the Devs vision soon after their UI vision became simplistic. Additionally, since the game systems that permit us to get information from the environment are not working properly, getting some information from add-ons is helpful. Seeing a buff/debuff on a group member or not seeing it at all really means nothing since it does not work consistently.0 -
Blackwidow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.JessieColtub17_ESO wrote: »snip
ROFLMAO!
Agree to disagree.
Have a nice day.0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.JessieColtub17_ESO wrote: »
TESO doesn't rely on them for important features, other than, as I mentioned in previous posts, GSS, that I am aware of.
You can chose to trust, or not trust them, that is your choice.
Well what is important and what isn't is subjective. But at least we can agree there is at least one feature of importance they rely on addons for. So that alone is enough that should at least give my argument fair consideration. So let's concentrate on that.
You are right when you say I can choose to trust them or not. The problem happens when I am disadvantaged on the game because I choose not to trust them. Which I already am to some extent - because I have to manually search through dozens of guild store pages to find what I am looking for while others who do trust them have a much easier time browsing.
This effect was compounded a million times over in other games such as WoW where I could not even participate in raids without certain addons. So it nearly forces you to trust these addons. There really wasn't much of a choice in the matter.
Now I am aware this game hasn't reached that point. And addons have not - as of yet - dominated this game and forced players to use them. But I am worried it will happen. And my past experiences with games that did allow addons proves to me it's a very reasonable concern. That is why I oppose them.
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CiaránSoul ShrivenYes. They're part of what makes this game great.
Thanks for the respectful post. And no apology is necessary.
Part of the problem is the broad context of this thread's opening. The poll doesn't distinguish which addons specifically it is referring too. It also implicates those which give players advantages. So that is likely the reason these types of addons are referred in this debate.
When I say the word advantage I mean to say the addon gives the player some benefit they would not otherwise have. I didn't mean it in a derogatory way. And if you view my initial post where I used this word - it was actually an attempt on my part to be less provocative in respects to the word cheating, which I felt was too controversial.
Let me clarify my position for you:
Addons that are purely cosmetic in nature, such as different skins for your interface or menu adjustments I have no problem with. They offer advantages in terms of personalization but nothing significant.
Addons that provide UI enhancements, such as the ability to more precisely search the guild store or mark multiple locations on the map I can live with. But I do feel these types of addons give significant advantages to the players who use them in terms of convenience and quality of life options. So I would prefer mechanics like these be implemented into the official game and not relied upon by outside sources
Addons that allow the player to be more effective in battle, such as spell detections/warning systems/instant targeting/complex macros etc. I strongly oppose. These sorts of addons do significantly disadvantage other players who do not use them. They also lead to gameplay imbalances, especially in regards to PvP.
This is why generally I am opposed to allowing addons.
Now if ESO is able to keep their impact to a minimal I may soften my position on this. But I am very skeptical that's going to happen - and I fully expect addons to eventually start dominating this game. I could be wrong. We'll see.
Apologies for the lengthy reply. But I felt your post was worthy of a detailed response
Your opinions more or less mirror my own, so I am glad we clarified this. Well. I'm not opposed to using the addons that provide basic UI enhancements, but I do not think I have ever played a TES game without some form of UI enhancement. But anything that creates a gameplay imbalance I agree should be disallowed.
That said, I do believe the bar set by Zenimax on what is and is not allowed by addons is whether or not your use of an addon influences other players. Things like you said which create a gameplay imbalance by providing complex macros, instant targeting, warning systems, etc, clearly influence other players and put them at a significant disadvantage in PvP. They are not allowed and use of said addons should result in a player being banned.
I do not believe the public API provided by Zenimax allows for that type of addon to be created. But I will see about looking into the API to see exactly what is provided so that we can have a more intelligent (or at least a better informed) discussion on the matter.1 -
Blackwolfe5✭✭✭Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.ttwinklerub17_ESO wrote: »the problem with Add-ins - is lack of control
1. hacking/backdoors/cheating
2. virus and monitoring by other users
3. bugs and un-intended effects on zenimax's already working code - nerfing working stuff
what id rather see is some system that no add-ins are allowed in unless the go thru Quality control by zenimax
that means submission and testing and then getting some form of approval checksum/key that unless it has one that corresponds with that app and code ...it cannot be installed
I would like to see zenimax offer the add-ins on their website and have a small fee for each one that goes back to the original developer
this would spring up mini developers writing game code add-ins that would benefit iutside developers and zenimax - because there is profit for developers (or at leastbreak even status) and zeni gets more people writing apps and possible content in the future
A huge NO on points 1 and 2 because it cannot be done with the current addon API.
Furthermore, forcing addons to go through quality control would effectively kill the addon community. But hey, that would make you happy wouldn't it..
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magic_is_might✭✭✭Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.1. hacking/backdoors/cheating
2. virus and monitoring by other users
^ Proof that most people against addons have zero idea how they actually work.
These functions cannot happen with addons. They are NOT possible with the API.
Arguing these points hurts your cause because it shows you don't even fully understand what they are arguing.
Those two points would be considered mods, yes Blackwidow, mods are not addons. They are not the same thing. They require 3rd party software and hacked clients to accomplish and usually modify gameplay. They would happen with or without addons.
Edited by magic_is_might on May 23, 2014 4:04PMSienna Nightsky | Aldmeri Dominion | Nightblade Woodelf2 -
Tannakaobi✭✭✭✭✭Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.JessieColtub17_ESO wrote: »But your fear of what "another game" did should not translate to what this game does.
As I said, TESO is not WoW.
I find amusement in this statement. I agree with it and most people will say they do, but they don't. I only need to point out the general attitude towards arena's to prove that.
It works two ways as well. Just because something is good in another mmo game does not mean is should be copied in every game. Like the mini map for example.
But that is what is good about add-ons. In other games my add-ons have always been about reducing UI, something I don't need to bother with in ESO.
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Korinth✭✭✭Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.I voted yes.... but they should be cleared and vetted by Zenimax first to ensure they are not exploits.
And YES they should be allowed because the current UI is just absolutely abysmal.0 -
No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.then I would further you to read online on how the bot makers are using the ESO API and are posting about it
I won't bother posting you the two sites that talk about it1 -
magic_is_might✭✭✭Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.ttwinklerub17_ESO wrote: »then I would further you to read online on how the bot makers are using the ESO API and are posting about it
I won't bother posting you the two sites that talk about it
Well you can't say these things and refuse to post them
Sienna Nightsky | Aldmeri Dominion | Nightblade Woodelf0 -
CiaránSoul ShrivenYes. They're part of what makes this game great.ttwinklerub17_ESO wrote: »then I would further you to read online on how the bot makers are using the ESO API and are posting about it
I won't bother posting you the two sites that talk about it
Can you link that information here? Since you have already found this information online, it only makes sense that to support this claim you provide links, rather than force people to search for it (and potentially find nothing.) If I sound snarky, then I do apologize, but I am genuinely curious on this topic, and preliminary google searches have not yielded any results.2
