hoangdz wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Nerf WW's interaction with class masteries. While we're at it, nerf DK's Wildfire passive as well.

So how's WW doing on non Sorcs? If like Decimus said Sorc Mastery is that far ahead on WW then that's the real problem here, and really just Conservation of Energy (players need to stop crying about dot pressure not letting them spend 40 minutes resetting the fight).

Wildfire is fine, Pyrebrand is the problem in that interaction, nerf sets not classes.

WW is still doing fine? This is a screenshot of my WW achieving 6k HPS for almost 4 minutes in a duel with 23k resists and ZERO class mastery passives:




I have 10 minutes of WW experience, on an unoptimized build with ZERO class masteries, and missing 33% WD modifier. I almost killed the guy several times who was using Warden class masteries. Have Pelican with his build and WW experience and I can assure you that the result would be a lot different.

See, this is what people have been asking for for a handful of days now.

And now a genuine question, at what point do we consider something too much damage? 6k is quite a bit lower than 10k, and it's already been established that a majority of people won't be playing at top PvPer level. So for the average player who more than likely won't be running 100% fully optimized builds, what would be an acceptable amount of DPS?

Dracane wrote: »

Yes, Templar WW is also crazy with sacred ground, and Warden WW can also be crazy with 1665 base WPD. It is not only Sorc. But obviously people will use the most profane example to make their point clear.

Is MagSorc broken because of these talents? No, not even close. So it's not only those passives that are problematic, since in most cases they work as intended and achieve what they should. It's only certain builds that push things over the edge; the most problematic of which is Werewolf.

Would it be at all possible to get any sort of CMX or video of people running other Classes for WW to get comparison numbers? That's another thing people have been asking for, data from other builds with actual numbers so we can see the differences.

And if it's specific interactions that are a problem, then those specific interactions are what need to be addressed, rather than any kind of blanket nerf. And the best way to see what specific interactions are the problem so that they can be targeted is to get numbers of those interactions. Knowing what's making what too strong is the best way of figuring out how to tweak those things. Perhaps the answer is WW not having access to Mastery Passives. Perhaps the answer is tweaking values on certain WW Skills. Perhaps the answer is adding some sort of WW debuff to Battle Spirit.

But without adequate data of what is a problem and what isn't, it's really hard to determine WHAT exactly needs that changing.

xylena wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Nerf WW's interaction with class masteries. While we're at it, nerf DK's Wildfire passive as well.

So how's WW doing on non Sorcs? If like Decimus said Sorc Mastery is that far ahead on WW then that's the real problem here, and really just Conservation of Energy (players need to stop crying about dot pressure not letting them spend 40 minutes resetting the fight).

Wildfire is fine, Pyrebrand is the problem in that interaction, nerf sets not classes.

WW is still doing fine? This is a screenshot of my WW achieving 6k HPS for almost 4 minutes in a duel with 23k resists and ZERO class mastery passives:




I have 10 minutes of WW experience, on an unoptimized build with ZERO class masteries, and missing 33% WD modifier. I almost killed the guy several times who was using Warden class masteries. Have Pelican with his build and WW experience and I can assure you that the result would be a lot different.

Don't mind the DPS, it sucks because I transformed on back bar by mistake, losing my 5p set. If anything this illustrates my point better as it dragged the fight out to 5 minutes and 31 seconds. Green is ultimate, as you can see it's mostly upwards the whole time. Started at 420 ultimate, ended with more than what I had, some ult was lost due to hitting 500 while in Rampage.

Investments:

• Sorc = -15% ult
• Bonebroth = -5% ult
• WW Solo Passive = -20% ult
• Minor Heroism pot = +0.66 ult/s (22% increase)
• Feral Pounce = Additional Fury gen

Let's say I could Devour occasionally, over 5 minutes I'd expect the option, so what would I get?

• 75 ultimate.
• 12s of no ult cost = 96 ult retained (76 for my setup).
• 15 ult from the 10s weave buff.
• 125 fury (Neutral to just casting abilities).
• 100% health (Safety net).

With the retained ult and ult generated during the immunity window, you're nearly +200 ult farther than what you would be had you not Devoured. It's extremely overloaded and meant to be interacted with. If you can't or don't want to Devour as frequently, then you need to build for ult gen, and since stamina recovery is a non factor, this is easier than ever.

From my perspective, they've nailed the balance here. It's something you actually need to consider and maintain, but also not incredibly punishing when built for correctly. The only aspect not everyone should have by default is Daedric Summoning and Minor Heroism, of which you can cover through other means via subclassing, masteries, class passives, or sets.

All this to say I'm not against buffing other sources as mentioned in the OP especially since many of them are downright terrible, but I heavily disagree on the notion that you NEED Pack Leader or other WW's.

If I were to tinker with the balance a bit, I could see making the transformation free out of combat. Would make prep a bit easier and more forgiving, especially if you built yourself up to 500 or even a lower 300 ultimate, you wouldn't imediately bring yourself down by -100 before combat even begins and the race to maintain it starts. They could then add to Shapeshifter's Chain that WW transfromation is free in combat as well.

I also wouldn't be against giving Minor (Not Major) Heroism to a WW ability or passive, it adds minimal gains overall, but it would feel like a natural evolution of what they're going for while reducing the need to use Heroism potions which is a little counter intuitive for a subclass that is meant as a early-mid tier playstyle option. Those players are the ones using Oakensoul and avoiding spending money on Heroism pots at all costs, but at the same time, it would remove a min/max build path, so idk, but food for thought.

BattleAxe wrote: »

Simple solution rework shapeshifters chain mythic to essentially remove the ultimate cost of maintaining ww form as well as increase fury generation. This would make it a difficult choice between Oakensoul or shapeshifters.

I will be converting an alt character to a WW with U50 for PVE DPS, so I was curious about Oakensoul. These were my findings:

1. Minor Endurance and Intellect -> Don't need sustain anymore.
2. Minor Aegis, Fortitude, Protection, and Mending -> All defensive, not required for DPS, can be provided by supports.
3. Empower -> Not interested in heavy attack rotations.
4. Minor Slayer -> Trial sets are not a detriment to use, they tend to be the strongest so gaining a 5 piece set slot at the cost of this mythic isn't worth it.
5. Minor Courage -> Decent, but covered through groups and if you have Pack Leader WW with you.
6. Minor Heroism -> The only thing I really care about, but I could just use a Heroism Potion or a group buff.
7. Redundant buffs -> Minor Berserk and Force, Major Brutality, Sorcery, Prophecy, Savagery, and Resolve.

So.. Minor Courage and Heroism is all it really gives me, which is covered by groups or a pot. Not worth a mythic slot, in non serious content I have Devour, in serious content I'll use a potion.

Oakensoul is obviously for a specific demographic so I guess I'm not surprised since WW shares some of those design princibles. Oakensoul buffs you for losing a bar, but WW already does that within passives and abilities, so of course there's overlap, seems intentional so that's fine... WW needs a real mythic.

Shapeshifter's is a pretty mid though, I'm surprised they didn't change it at all this patch. The -15% cost see's more value than before if it also applies to the ult cost/10s, but if you can manage it without it, all you're getting is 1700 stamina so I'm all for your suggestion to improve it by disabling the upfront cost as an easy solution for people who can't manage the ultimate or don't want to invest into as much.

So yeah both of these mythics even with your suggestion seems more like an early-mid game choice or for PVP where they get much better value, neither I'd use for PVE DPS which brought me to looking at Signet.

WW doesn't have a real ult spender, Rampage uses Fury and you want your ult well above 200 before it becomes dangeriously low so the full bonus is active all the time. WW also has abilities for guaranteed status effects or 2 damage types in one, with light attacks giving random status effects and Berserker adding a dot to your light attack, this feels like a perfect match all things considered. It might even outpace Warmask in single target without the aoe dps sacrifice and the debuff management.

Werewolf needs this buff and if its gutted, then I'm def not coming back. I as well as the other pro werewolf players are people that actually main werewolf and we all know werewolf needs this. Whereas these people complaining dont even use werewolf and their only interaction is fighting against them.

People are complaining that something that SHOULD be porwerful is powerful and that it somewhat threatens their power. They dont even play it, they just dont want another obstacle to overcome and maintain their power in pvp and pve.

I really hope devs do not listen to this vocal minority. Changes and buffs like the ones given to DK's and now werewolves is what will bring players back, and everyone knows this game needs that since elder scrolls 6 wont be out for another 6 years lol.