if anyone is curious why this is happening:

Damage reduction unintentional behavior:
When you take damage (note this calculation is kinda simplified and ignores optional stuff that isnt always present)

(Damage * 7) - (Damage * Multiplicative category reduction additive) * (1 - (armor / 66000)) = damage taken.

Damage is the original hit before being multiplied by vestige difficulty in this case (so 7, cause 600% additive)

The second portion is a weird portion of the damage mitigation calculation and our point of interest. These bonuses are:
Gladiators Tenacity Ulfsild's Contingency
Gladiators Tenacity Torchbearer
Lucent Echoes (under 50%)
Pearlescent
Torc of the Alyeid King
Esoteric Greaves
Runic Sunder
Major Evasion
Minor Evasion
Psijic Deliberation
Necrotic Potency
Necro Dot Mit Disdain Harm
Major Aegis
Minor Aegis
and some others since this is a list from ~u40 ish, but whatever.

These will take the original damage, add together multiplicatively with rounding, then reduce the original damage by the given value, then subtract that value off the damage. This is not super relevant.

Problem is: it only subtracts it off the original damage value, not the value that is multiplied by Challenge Difficulty. So basically they're 7x less effective. For example:

With Esoteric Environment Greaves, and a 1000 hit it'd be:

(((1000 * 7) - (1000 * 0.5)) * (1 - (2425 / 66000)) = 6261 damage taken, while if it worked correctly, it'd be 3371.
Hit * 7. Esoteric reduction. Armor reduction
(Esoteric is a heavy gold leg, 2425 armor)

Please invest time in finally fixing these weird parts of the mitigation calculation. Don't do a band-aid fix, you'll encounter more of these issues as the game continues.

Damage increase unintentional behavior:

This one is much simpler, the -80% damage done works exactly the same as say, Major Berserk or Major Slayer: it's additive.

This means that if you have an unmodified character, it is indeed 20% of damage dealt, but if you have even just a 6% damage CP slottable, your damage increases to 26% of damage done which is a 30% increase in overall damage output.

The reason this "Light attack bug??" is seen, is because it is also additive, the 20% from Weapons Master is effectively doubling your damage since we're going from 20% damage done to 40% damage done. (or 0.2x to 0.4x) The player did probably have some other % damage bonuses but since most of them worked on the rest of their damage, they saw the LA/HA's as an outlier. The lightning staff also had to do with it, as it gives 12% direct damage bonus which is also additive with the % dmg reduction from Vestige/Challenge Difficulty.

It also makes sets like Deadly, or passives like the Class Mastery from Arcanist ridiculously overpowered in Vestige. I can hit over 40k dps in vestige mode on pale order with pure arcanist on a 6mil dummy. It should be closer to ~10-15k at most.

Prowler's Talisman seems cool at first, but the only part of it that's actually worth using is the pickpocket bonus. Invisibility is not hard to get, especially since everyone can subclass into Shadow and get a much more reliable one, on top of easily accessed potions. The other two abilities are very lackluster combat abilities.
The current best stealth set is;
5 pieces Night Mother's Embrace
4 pieces Vesture of Darloc Brae
3 pieces Night Terror

On a khajiit, with all the other available stealth boosts, you are functionally invisible to any creature that doesn't have an increased stealth radius (like dogs). All those sets together are 12 pieces, so you can't fit a mythic in there. These are also all overland sets, and you don't need them to be any special quality to get the full effect, so you can get this with pocket change. Shadow Queen's Cowel is not really useful because witnesses can't detect you anyway, and pickpocketing a guard is more likely to fail than whatever you were planning to do anyway.

As it stands, if it doesn't offer a 2 meter stealth boost, I'm only going to use an addon to swap it on when I'm pickpocketing, and never use it otherwise. That's a pretty big disappointment for the concept.

EDIT; the combat boosts are also really bland and generic, and don't fit the theme at all. Boosts that tie to stealth, invisibility, or even flanking would fit a lot better. Things like Stygian, Archer's Mind, or Shadow Dancer would synergize with the base ability and fit more in the theme.

Isn't it kinda a problem if a mastery is good for damage output, healing output, and defense altogether? There's no real choice if one mastery is so generalist that every variety of nightblade benefits in its own way from it.

Dracane wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

My initial impression was that the class masteries are too weak, then I doubted a bit when some started saying they are broken, but I am also back to thinking they are not enough. There was a wow effect for a few day, yet when considering everything and leaving aside unintended interactions, none of the masteries are good enough to seriously compete with subclassing at least as far as pvp is concerned.

And it seems I am far from alone in my thinking.

You're not wrong. I didn't test every class, I figured there were enough mains to cover them all .. but when I looked at Sorc I saw the same thing you are.

People sometimes forget that there's an opportunity cost for choices we make in game. It's one thing to say X or Y Class Mastery passive is "good", in a vacuum .. but when one looks at those passives versus Subclassing that's where things fall short. There's no Class Mastery passive that I'm seeing that's going to present a sweeter opportunity than being able to slot a Merciless Resolve or Fatecarver or Shalks or Surprise Attack.

These Mastery passives, from what I understand, are supposed to be a partial class enhancement to hold us over whilst the Devs work on the class refreshes; then seeing the Mastery passives adjusted as each class is re-worked for balance.

These current Mastery passives aren't delivering the type of power or flexibility that Subclassing does, full stop.

It doesn't matter whether it's PvE or PvP, Subclassing just delivers too much and if the only restrictions Subclassed builds have are these weak passives it's going to be a hard sell convincing people to stick with a pure base class build versus subbing.

I don't doubt some people are seeing an increase in power by using the Class Mastery passives now than the power they were seeing before, BUT, that doesn't mean that the power they were outputting before the Mastery passives was anywhere near on par with the potential of what's out there; either for PvP or PvE.

Thank you. You said this all well.
The strongest of the class masteries is not universally strong enough to replace the things subclassing does. And they don't necessarily have to at this moment in time. As long as it's not griefing to play pure Templar, Sorc etc. until their reworks, then I am also glad.

I just say this because I hope ZoS do not nerf any of them so soon only because there was some hype around them for a few days. The next update could genuinly be one of the most exciting ESO patches in recent memory. That is if things don't release butchered and balanced to death.

It's so boring how everything Sorc gets are fix values, because they are afraid to give them anything that scales. Surge > fix heal value unaffected by stats. Dark Deal the same, and the previous iteration of Conservation of Energy too was a fix value.
It's tiresome when nothing scales.

Agreed .. I don't believe these passives should take any class into "near-meta" territory but they should seek to deliver class-only elevations to either power or utility, whatever the class is missing. This way these pure class options have a greater potential to be competitive with subclassed builds.

Sorc IMO has always been a tricky class for the Devs. To start, the class has two widely disparagingly play style paths between pet-based and non-pet-based. This is further compounded by mechanics. The fundamental mechanics behind how Sorc skills execute their functions are so poorly optimized that it's almost laughable; this includes excessively long animations or even the AI behind how Sorc pets behave, to even the method of requiring opponents to stand-in-stupid easy to avoid skills that yield no results. It's not always about numbers it's also about method and function.

Sorcs biggest deficiency is raw power and, IMO, that's what these passives need to bring but the values they give are just too low, especially in the context of our poor skills. ... What's a 20% temporary increase in damage if I can run a persistent 17% AND have access to Subbed skills? .. Or equip Beacon of Oblivion and cop a 15% bonus to damage PLUS whatever else from Subclassed passives AND have access to better skills? For Sorcs this is really a no brainer, these passives just don't deliver.

It sounds like the other classes are in the same boat with these passives based on what others are posting. I don't think these passives is really going to encourage anyone to go with a base class unless these passives are tweaked to hit HARD. .. And that shouldn't be an issue because the values and scope of them can always be adjusted down during the class refreshes anyway.

The passives are enough to encourage me personally. And as well my husband says that he will go back or at least try pure Warden.

That is if things remain as they are. Already nerfs to the Sorcclass masteries, based on meaningless dummy parses and Werewolf abuse, are being implied in the PTS summaries. So if they come online any weaker, then I also don't know what will be.

I can't get on board with these passives. If I'm running a DLC Vet dungeon or Trial or anything PvP there's no way I can be competitive in those content areas with those passives AND having to carry under-performing Sorc skill lines.

And I lean on PvP as the higher priority here because that's the significantly higher bar in terms of power and mechanical needs. Nothing in PvE has anywhere near the dynamics and power that PvP does which means that any PvE content is much easier to address and engage with as opposed to PvP. A skill or a mechanic can be acceptable in PvE but at the same time extremely unacceptable in PvP and I think we see a lot of that in Sorc, specifically.

We can get some solid sustain out of Conservation but there are multiple ways to get that level or more of sustain elsewhere. None of these passives deliver on persistent power, especially not like we can get elsewhere.

If they go nerf the passives then it's pushing many Sorcs even more-so to stay with Subclassing. Dummy parsing is only part of comprehensive testing. Dummies don't represent any aspect of real-world in game combat. No enemy just stands there and "takes it" from a player.

I can't speak for all players but it's not as if most of us Sorcs didn't already have a strategy for sustain or a strategy to delver strong burst power or persistent DPS. I'm not seeing where any of these passives brings Sorcs any of those benefits that we can't get elsewhere but also have access to far, far better skills through subclassing.

If someone want's to run pure Sorc with these passives, that's great, however, I would very much maintain that in any real world scenario they're going to under perform. The main playstyle I can see someone making that choice for is Heavy Attacks, which is fine, it's definitely an option, I just wish Sorcs could get values and mechanics that support more than just that one-trick-pony setup.

Maybe after the Sorc class refresh, IF (and this is a big IF) we get significantly re-worked skills that deliver on what Sorcs have been lacking then we have a better argument for these passives being as they are, but there's no way in the context of our poor skills. Right now, the passives need to deliver a lot more to make up for the penalty of having to carry those skills, otherwise, most are going to still see Subclassing as being more beneficial. .. especially when we can even Parse equal or higher numbers on a dummy with Subclassing that we can with these passives.

These are seemingly "good on paper" passives.

Appreciate these summaries, it's good to know what the teams are thinking with how things landed in Week 1 & 2 on the PTS.

Very interested in seeing where Sorcerer winds up, I really hope that there was not an over-correction on account of inflated single target trial dummy parses.

I'm eager to see the updated class mastery passives for all classes as well. Should be an exciting week of testing next week.

acanca wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Atm there is a big discrepancy between 2 classes with near infinite sustain, those being DK with core of flame skill and Sorcerer with Conservation of Energy passive and the rest of the classes sustain passives if they even get a sustain passive to speak of.

Warden- Nature’s Bounty: This passive upgrades rank 2 of Nature’s Gift to grant the healed target Major Heroism for 4.5 seconds and an additional 250 Magicka and Stamina.
This passive does not proc with overheals making it incredibly unreliable and while it has good value outside of its sustain, the passive is very weak for solo purposes. Passie would have to be able to proc off of overheals and have double value when it procs on yourself to be actually a consideration.

Templar- Devout Guardian: This passive causes you to gain a Damage Shield for 6 seconds, up to once every 6 seconds, while Sacred Ground is active. The shield absorbs up to 20% of your Max Health and grants 300 Health, Magicka, and Stamina Recovery while active. If the shield breaks, you gain 10 Ultimate
This is incredibly unreliable for solo and while the ultimate is appreciated, sustain would be appreciated even more. Please let us keep the sustain even when the shield breaks.

NB- No sustain passive to speak. Though it has access to siphoning strikes

Necromancer- No sustain passive

Arcanist - Erudite’s Rigor: This passive upgrades Fatewoven Armor to also grant 1 Ultimate and 300 Magicka and Stamina when you take damage, increasing by 100 Magicka and Stamina per Crux you have, up to once every 2 seconds.
Too unreliable and weak

I think we have a problem in general with passives not related to dealing damage being too weak to actually be worth giving up subclassing for. And it would be really appreciated if the sustain gap between dk, sorc and the rest of the classes be bridged either by buffing the rest or bringing dk and sorc more in line with the rest. Thank you

To clarify, Sorcs Conservation passive isn't quite the major sustain people might think, at least not in testing.

Yes, it's an absolute notable difference in sustain but it's definitely NOT infinite sustain.

In order to proc the passive with any consistency the player needs to be readily casting skills with a cost. Yes, the passive returns more resource than Wretched but it's not enough to offset the amount of resource consistently spent to maintain the proc.

Further, heavy attacks are a staple among Sorcs which won't proc the passive. Sure HA's return resources but it's not as if that's proc'ing the passive for a double stack.

In testing, conservation definitely aided in sustain but it wasn't anywhere near infinite nor did it allow me to cast without consideration for my sustain. Also, like @Dracane mentioned, in order to even access the passive Sorcs have to keep the Dark Magic skill line which is arguably one of the worst skill trees in the game.

I did overland content and bosses etc on my sorc, conversation of energy without any other sustain set was more than enough for me to not run out of sustain ever while testing. And thats on a build where if i take the passive off, i would run out of magicka in less than a minute. When properly built with around 40k max magicka or stamina pool, it is for all intents and purposes infinite sustain.

Of course it doesnt allow for the same level of funny business like core of flame, it wont allow you to keep a stage 10 streak going forever like how core of flame allows currently. Nor will it let you spam a 4-5k cost skill, you will run out while doing those sure. But it allows for basically infinite sustain while using a normal cost spammable and occasionally using higher cost skills and i feel it needs saying, it works by itself without having to use a gcd on it unlike core of flames.

Yes its not infinite sustain, but its way better than what any one else thats not dk gets, maybe even better than dk because you dont use a skill slots or gcd on it

You make it sound like it's an issue. Sounds great or not? It is not the same sustain as Core of Flame, but it is enough to sustain average spamming. That's fine and expected of a class mastery? Sounds balanced and in line with the potency of other class masteries.

Its better than the best sustain set in the game, probably the best 2 sustain sets put together.
None of the other sustain pure class masteries come even close to how good it is. For comparision, you restore at least 800 magicka and around 350 stamina per second per skill cast and it also activates with bashes and roll dodges you do (you are welcome for the tech). This is around an extra 1600 magicka sustain and 700 stamina sustain. Meanwhile for example templars get 300 magicka and stamina, and when their shield is broken, they lose even that. Do you think these 2 passives are even remotely on the same level? Either sorc and dk sustain has to be lowered or other classes sustain passives need to be brought up

If you already compare it to Templar you should put the sustain provided by Rune too.
To reach the values you mentioned you have to stack mag to 40k and 17.5k stam. Since stat stacking isnt the best scaling way to increase your damage that seems fine to me.

You can get to 40k max magicka and easily have 6k+ weapon damage currently on sorc with 0 max magicka set or a single weapon damage set.
Edit: This is using 0 max magicka set, 0 weapon damage set. Its not stacking anything, its not even stacking max magicka on enchants. It doesnt have any raid buffs or the like and all it has is self buffs like major brutality. 42k max magicka, 6.4k weapon damage. Can we please move past the narrative that this is somehow hard to get? Thank you

Well you took the mage mundus and the mage CP.
And now compare that to my subclass DK on live which has way better stats in every aspect except max mag paired with infinite sustain. Until all classes get their rework done the pureclass masteries have to compete with those powercreep builds.