Sustain and Pure Class Masteries

acanca

Atm there is a big discrepancy between 2 classes with near infinite sustain, those being DK with core of flame skill and Sorcerer with Conservation of Energy passive and the rest of the classes sustain passives if they even get a sustain passive to speak of.

Warden- Nature’s Bounty: This passive upgrades rank 2 of Nature’s Gift to grant the healed target Major Heroism for 4.5 seconds and an additional 250 Magicka and Stamina.
This passive does not proc with overheals making it incredibly unreliable and while it has good value outside of its sustain, the passive is very weak for solo purposes. Passie would have to be able to proc off of overheals and have double value when it procs on yourself to be actually a consideration.

Templar- Devout Guardian: This passive causes you to gain a Damage Shield for 6 seconds, up to once every 6 seconds, while Sacred Ground is active. The shield absorbs up to 20% of your Max Health and grants 300 Health, Magicka, and Stamina Recovery while active. If the shield breaks, you gain 10 Ultimate
This is incredibly unreliable for solo and while the ultimate is appreciated, sustain would be appreciated even more. Please let us keep the sustain even when the shield breaks.

NB- No sustain passive to speak. Though it has access to siphoning strikes

Necromancer- No sustain passive

Arcanist - Erudite’s Rigor: This passive upgrades Fatewoven Armor to also grant 1 Ultimate and 300 Magicka and Stamina when you take damage, increasing by 100 Magicka and Stamina per Crux you have, up to once every 2 seconds.
Too unreliable and weak

I think we have a problem in general with passives not related to dealing damage being too weak to actually be worth giving up subclassing for. And it would be really appreciated if the sustain gap between dk, sorc and the rest of the classes be bridged either by buffing the rest or bringing dk and sorc more in line with the rest. Thank you

Dracane

Not to discount what you are saying, just pointing out that Conservation of Energy is Sorc's reward for using that god awful Dark Magic skilline by relieving you of the need to use them. Doesn't change that you have one dead or at best niche skilline that could be replaced with a powerful subclassed line. So this passive should be powerful indeed.

And as for Dragonknight, I believe this is just the new standard they want to set. Werewolf also has no sustain issues.

Jestir

Warden has incredibly poor sustain as a DPS and that absolutely needs addressed and Core of flame is absolutely busted and really need to be toned down but the rest are honestly fine. With a proper build using both resources and (when grouped) synergy use sustain in this game is an absolute joke

NxJoeyD

acanca wrote: »

Atm there is a big discrepancy between 2 classes with near infinite sustain, those being DK with core of flame skill and Sorcerer with Conservation of Energy passive and the rest of the classes sustain passives if they even get a sustain passive to speak of.

Warden- Nature’s Bounty: This passive upgrades rank 2 of Nature’s Gift to grant the healed target Major Heroism for 4.5 seconds and an additional 250 Magicka and Stamina.
This passive does not proc with overheals making it incredibly unreliable and while it has good value outside of its sustain, the passive is very weak for solo purposes. Passie would have to be able to proc off of overheals and have double value when it procs on yourself to be actually a consideration.

Templar- Devout Guardian: This passive causes you to gain a Damage Shield for 6 seconds, up to once every 6 seconds, while Sacred Ground is active. The shield absorbs up to 20% of your Max Health and grants 300 Health, Magicka, and Stamina Recovery while active. If the shield breaks, you gain 10 Ultimate
This is incredibly unreliable for solo and while the ultimate is appreciated, sustain would be appreciated even more. Please let us keep the sustain even when the shield breaks.

NB- No sustain passive to speak. Though it has access to siphoning strikes

Necromancer- No sustain passive

Arcanist - Erudite’s Rigor: This passive upgrades Fatewoven Armor to also grant 1 Ultimate and 300 Magicka and Stamina when you take damage, increasing by 100 Magicka and Stamina per Crux you have, up to once every 2 seconds.
Too unreliable and weak

I think we have a problem in general with passives not related to dealing damage being too weak to actually be worth giving up subclassing for. And it would be really appreciated if the sustain gap between dk, sorc and the rest of the classes be bridged either by buffing the rest or bringing dk and sorc more in line with the rest. Thank you

To clarify, Sorcs Conservation passive isn't quite the major sustain people might think, at least not in testing.

Yes, it's an absolute notable difference in sustain but it's definitely NOT infinite sustain.

In order to proc the passive with any consistency the player needs to be readily casting skills with a cost. Yes, the passive returns more resource than Wretched but it's not enough to offset the amount of resource consistently spent to maintain the proc.

Further, heavy attacks are a staple among Sorcs which won't proc the passive. Sure HA's return resources but it's not as if that's proc'ing the passive for a double stack.

In testing, conservation definitely aided in sustain but it wasn't anywhere near infinite nor did it allow me to cast without consideration for my sustain. Also, like @Dracane mentioned, in order to even access the passive Sorcs have to keep the Dark Magic skill line which is arguably one of the worst skill trees in the game.

acanca

NxJoeyD wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Atm there is a big discrepancy between 2 classes with near infinite sustain, those being DK with core of flame skill and Sorcerer with Conservation of Energy passive and the rest of the classes sustain passives if they even get a sustain passive to speak of.

Warden- Nature’s Bounty: This passive upgrades rank 2 of Nature’s Gift to grant the healed target Major Heroism for 4.5 seconds and an additional 250 Magicka and Stamina.
This passive does not proc with overheals making it incredibly unreliable and while it has good value outside of its sustain, the passive is very weak for solo purposes. Passie would have to be able to proc off of overheals and have double value when it procs on yourself to be actually a consideration.

Templar- Devout Guardian: This passive causes you to gain a Damage Shield for 6 seconds, up to once every 6 seconds, while Sacred Ground is active. The shield absorbs up to 20% of your Max Health and grants 300 Health, Magicka, and Stamina Recovery while active. If the shield breaks, you gain 10 Ultimate
This is incredibly unreliable for solo and while the ultimate is appreciated, sustain would be appreciated even more. Please let us keep the sustain even when the shield breaks.

NB- No sustain passive to speak. Though it has access to siphoning strikes

Necromancer- No sustain passive

Arcanist - Erudite’s Rigor: This passive upgrades Fatewoven Armor to also grant 1 Ultimate and 300 Magicka and Stamina when you take damage, increasing by 100 Magicka and Stamina per Crux you have, up to once every 2 seconds.
Too unreliable and weak

I think we have a problem in general with passives not related to dealing damage being too weak to actually be worth giving up subclassing for. And it would be really appreciated if the sustain gap between dk, sorc and the rest of the classes be bridged either by buffing the rest or bringing dk and sorc more in line with the rest. Thank you

To clarify, Sorcs Conservation passive isn't quite the major sustain people might think, at least not in testing.

Yes, it's an absolute notable difference in sustain but it's definitely NOT infinite sustain.

In order to proc the passive with any consistency the player needs to be readily casting skills with a cost. Yes, the passive returns more resource than Wretched but it's not enough to offset the amount of resource consistently spent to maintain the proc.

Further, heavy attacks are a staple among Sorcs which won't proc the passive. Sure HA's return resources but it's not as if that's proc'ing the passive for a double stack.

In testing, conservation definitely aided in sustain but it wasn't anywhere near infinite nor did it allow me to cast without consideration for my sustain. Also, like @Dracane mentioned, in order to even access the passive Sorcs have to keep the Dark Magic skill line which is arguably one of the worst skill trees in the game.

I did overland content and bosses etc on my sorc, conversation of energy without any other sustain set was more than enough for me to not run out of sustain ever while testing. And thats on a build where if i take the passive off, i would run out of magicka in less than a minute. When properly built with around 40k max magicka or stamina pool, it is for all intents and purposes infinite sustain.

Of course it doesnt allow for the same level of funny business like core of flame, it wont allow you to keep a stage 10 streak going forever like how core of flame allows currently. Nor will it let you spam a 4-5k cost skill, you will run out while doing those sure. But it allows for basically infinite sustain while using a normal cost spammable and occasionally using higher cost skills and i feel it needs saying, it works by itself without having to use a gcd on it unlike core of flames.

Yes its not infinite sustain, but its way better than what any one else thats not dk gets, maybe even better than dk because you dont use a skill slots or gcd on it

ZhuJiuyin

Any reasonable subclass build won't have to worry about sustain, and will also possess powerful damage, area-of-effect attacks, and survivability.

Even with the Conversation of Energy, a pure Sorc build cannot compete with subclass builds because simply improving sustain is insufficient to compensate for Sorc's current predicaments, including but not limited to: lack of area-of-effect attacks; lack of a systematic skill set (e.g., unifying damage attribute as Shock to synergize with Energized); inability to create effective pet/non-pet builds separately; too many utility skills and too few damage skills, etc.

Therefore, the Conversation of Energy needs to be stronger than it is now (but not in terms of sustain, but in other aspects) to compensate for the shortcomings of a pure Sorc build.

acanca

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Any reasonable subclass build won't have to worry about sustain, and will also possess powerful damage, area-of-effect attacks, and survivability.

Even with the Conversation of Energy, a pure Sorc build cannot compete with subclass builds because simply improving sustain is insufficient to compensate for Sorc's current predicaments, including but not limited to: lack of area-of-effect attacks; lack of a systematic skill set (e.g., unifying damage attribute as Shock to synergize with Energized); inability to create effective pet/non-pet builds separately; too many utility skills and too few damage skills, etc.

Therefore, the Conversation of Energy needs to be stronger than it is now (but not in terms of sustain, but in other aspects) to compensate for the shortcomings of a pure Sorc build.

Does it make sense that a sustain passive be reworked to give sorc more aoe? Wouldnt it make more sense to do that on sorcs other passives, like say reverbation? Also confused what any of what you said has to do with sustain differences between classes, the topic of discussion.

ZhuJiuyin

acanca wrote: »

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Any reasonable subclass build won't have to worry about sustain, and will also possess powerful damage, area-of-effect attacks, and survivability.

Even with the Conversation of Energy, a pure Sorc build cannot compete with subclass builds because simply improving sustain is insufficient to compensate for Sorc's current predicaments, including but not limited to: lack of area-of-effect attacks; lack of a systematic skill set (e.g., unifying damage attribute as Shock to synergize with Energized); inability to create effective pet/non-pet builds separately; too many utility skills and too few damage skills, etc.

Therefore, the Conversation of Energy needs to be stronger than it is now (but not in terms of sustain, but in other aspects) to compensate for the shortcomings of a pure Sorc build.

Does it make sense that a sustain passive be reworked to give sorc more aoe? Wouldnt it make more sense to do that on sorcs other passives, like say reverbation? Also confused what any of what you said has to do with sustain differences between classes, the topic of discussion.

Your original words were："sustain gap between dk, sorc and the rest of the classes be bridged either by buffing the rest or bringing dk and sorc more in line with the rest." To me, this means advocating for a nerf to DK and Sorc.
Moreover, I said "other aspects," which could be survival, support, or even movement speed or pet buffs.

acanca

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Any reasonable subclass build won't have to worry about sustain, and will also possess powerful damage, area-of-effect attacks, and survivability.

Even with the Conversation of Energy, a pure Sorc build cannot compete with subclass builds because simply improving sustain is insufficient to compensate for Sorc's current predicaments, including but not limited to: lack of area-of-effect attacks; lack of a systematic skill set (e.g., unifying damage attribute as Shock to synergize with Energized); inability to create effective pet/non-pet builds separately; too many utility skills and too few damage skills, etc.

Therefore, the Conversation of Energy needs to be stronger than it is now (but not in terms of sustain, but in other aspects) to compensate for the shortcomings of a pure Sorc build.

Does it make sense that a sustain passive be reworked to give sorc more aoe? Wouldnt it make more sense to do that on sorcs other passives, like say reverbation? Also confused what any of what you said has to do with sustain differences between classes, the topic of discussion.

Your original words were："sustain gap between dk, sorc and the rest of the classes be bridged either by buffing the rest or bringing dk and sorc more in line with the rest." To me, this means advocating for a nerf to DK and Sorc.
Moreover, I said "other aspects," which could be survival, support, or even movement speed or pet buffs.

Please lets stop saying stuff like sorc has weak cleave and so you cant adjust its sustain. Thank you.

Dracane

acanca wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Atm there is a big discrepancy between 2 classes with near infinite sustain, those being DK with core of flame skill and Sorcerer with Conservation of Energy passive and the rest of the classes sustain passives if they even get a sustain passive to speak of.

Warden- Nature’s Bounty: This passive upgrades rank 2 of Nature’s Gift to grant the healed target Major Heroism for 4.5 seconds and an additional 250 Magicka and Stamina.
This passive does not proc with overheals making it incredibly unreliable and while it has good value outside of its sustain, the passive is very weak for solo purposes. Passie would have to be able to proc off of overheals and have double value when it procs on yourself to be actually a consideration.

Templar- Devout Guardian: This passive causes you to gain a Damage Shield for 6 seconds, up to once every 6 seconds, while Sacred Ground is active. The shield absorbs up to 20% of your Max Health and grants 300 Health, Magicka, and Stamina Recovery while active. If the shield breaks, you gain 10 Ultimate
This is incredibly unreliable for solo and while the ultimate is appreciated, sustain would be appreciated even more. Please let us keep the sustain even when the shield breaks.

NB- No sustain passive to speak. Though it has access to siphoning strikes

Necromancer- No sustain passive

Arcanist - Erudite’s Rigor: This passive upgrades Fatewoven Armor to also grant 1 Ultimate and 300 Magicka and Stamina when you take damage, increasing by 100 Magicka and Stamina per Crux you have, up to once every 2 seconds.
Too unreliable and weak

I think we have a problem in general with passives not related to dealing damage being too weak to actually be worth giving up subclassing for. And it would be really appreciated if the sustain gap between dk, sorc and the rest of the classes be bridged either by buffing the rest or bringing dk and sorc more in line with the rest. Thank you

To clarify, Sorcs Conservation passive isn't quite the major sustain people might think, at least not in testing.

Yes, it's an absolute notable difference in sustain but it's definitely NOT infinite sustain.

In order to proc the passive with any consistency the player needs to be readily casting skills with a cost. Yes, the passive returns more resource than Wretched but it's not enough to offset the amount of resource consistently spent to maintain the proc.

Further, heavy attacks are a staple among Sorcs which won't proc the passive. Sure HA's return resources but it's not as if that's proc'ing the passive for a double stack.

In testing, conservation definitely aided in sustain but it wasn't anywhere near infinite nor did it allow me to cast without consideration for my sustain. Also, like @Dracane mentioned, in order to even access the passive Sorcs have to keep the Dark Magic skill line which is arguably one of the worst skill trees in the game.

I did overland content and bosses etc on my sorc, conversation of energy without any other sustain set was more than enough for me to not run out of sustain ever while testing. And thats on a build where if i take the passive off, i would run out of magicka in less than a minute. When properly built with around 40k max magicka or stamina pool, it is for all intents and purposes infinite sustain.

Of course it doesnt allow for the same level of funny business like core of flame, it wont allow you to keep a stage 10 streak going forever like how core of flame allows currently. Nor will it let you spam a 4-5k cost skill, you will run out while doing those sure. But it allows for basically infinite sustain while using a normal cost spammable and occasionally using higher cost skills and i feel it needs saying, it works by itself without having to use a gcd on it unlike core of flames.

Yes its not infinite sustain, but its way better than what any one else thats not dk gets, maybe even better than dk because you dont use a skill slots or gcd on it

You make it sound like it's an issue. Sounds great or not? It is not the same sustain as Core of Flame, but it is enough to sustain average spamming. That's fine and expected of a class mastery? Sounds balanced and in line with the potency of other class masteries.

Dracane

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Any reasonable subclass build won't have to worry about sustain, and will also possess powerful damage, area-of-effect attacks, and survivability.

Even with the Conversation of Energy, a pure Sorc build cannot compete with subclass builds because simply improving sustain is insufficient to compensate for Sorc's current predicaments, including but not limited to: lack of area-of-effect attacks; lack of a systematic skill set (e.g., unifying damage attribute as Shock to synergize with Energized); inability to create effective pet/non-pet builds separately; too many utility skills and too few damage skills, etc.

Therefore, the Conversation of Energy needs to be stronger than it is now (but not in terms of sustain, but in other aspects) to compensate for the shortcomings of a pure Sorc build.

Conservation of Energy looks mostly find. What is bothersome with the Sorc Masteries is how many stats they want you to stack. I love the principle, though most builds can't do it without losing out too much in other areas with the current harsh scaling.

And I think Font of Power needs to be looked at. It may seem unreasonable to say this with a 220k Sorc dummy parse floating around (not like I care for such things or take them as a meaningful argument, less even in Sorc's case) but some 20% or less spell damage on most builds? Most pvp builds get less than that. That is hardly sufficient when other classes get over 1k spell damage from some masteries. The dummy parse is inflated by Monolith of Storms and Static Reverberation.

I still believe that Font of Power should be returned to the 1500 magicka scaling it previously had. Most builds can't get anything meaningful out of this. Least of all in this meta, where almost every skill Sorcs use in pvp gets cut in half by DK wings. This is not cutting it.

acanca

Dracane wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Atm there is a big discrepancy between 2 classes with near infinite sustain, those being DK with core of flame skill and Sorcerer with Conservation of Energy passive and the rest of the classes sustain passives if they even get a sustain passive to speak of.

Warden- Nature’s Bounty: This passive upgrades rank 2 of Nature’s Gift to grant the healed target Major Heroism for 4.5 seconds and an additional 250 Magicka and Stamina.
This passive does not proc with overheals making it incredibly unreliable and while it has good value outside of its sustain, the passive is very weak for solo purposes. Passie would have to be able to proc off of overheals and have double value when it procs on yourself to be actually a consideration.

Templar- Devout Guardian: This passive causes you to gain a Damage Shield for 6 seconds, up to once every 6 seconds, while Sacred Ground is active. The shield absorbs up to 20% of your Max Health and grants 300 Health, Magicka, and Stamina Recovery while active. If the shield breaks, you gain 10 Ultimate
This is incredibly unreliable for solo and while the ultimate is appreciated, sustain would be appreciated even more. Please let us keep the sustain even when the shield breaks.

NB- No sustain passive to speak. Though it has access to siphoning strikes

Necromancer- No sustain passive

Arcanist - Erudite’s Rigor: This passive upgrades Fatewoven Armor to also grant 1 Ultimate and 300 Magicka and Stamina when you take damage, increasing by 100 Magicka and Stamina per Crux you have, up to once every 2 seconds.
Too unreliable and weak

I think we have a problem in general with passives not related to dealing damage being too weak to actually be worth giving up subclassing for. And it would be really appreciated if the sustain gap between dk, sorc and the rest of the classes be bridged either by buffing the rest or bringing dk and sorc more in line with the rest. Thank you

To clarify, Sorcs Conservation passive isn't quite the major sustain people might think, at least not in testing.

Yes, it's an absolute notable difference in sustain but it's definitely NOT infinite sustain.

In order to proc the passive with any consistency the player needs to be readily casting skills with a cost. Yes, the passive returns more resource than Wretched but it's not enough to offset the amount of resource consistently spent to maintain the proc.

Further, heavy attacks are a staple among Sorcs which won't proc the passive. Sure HA's return resources but it's not as if that's proc'ing the passive for a double stack.

In testing, conservation definitely aided in sustain but it wasn't anywhere near infinite nor did it allow me to cast without consideration for my sustain. Also, like @Dracane mentioned, in order to even access the passive Sorcs have to keep the Dark Magic skill line which is arguably one of the worst skill trees in the game.

I did overland content and bosses etc on my sorc, conversation of energy without any other sustain set was more than enough for me to not run out of sustain ever while testing. And thats on a build where if i take the passive off, i would run out of magicka in less than a minute. When properly built with around 40k max magicka or stamina pool, it is for all intents and purposes infinite sustain.

Of course it doesnt allow for the same level of funny business like core of flame, it wont allow you to keep a stage 10 streak going forever like how core of flame allows currently. Nor will it let you spam a 4-5k cost skill, you will run out while doing those sure. But it allows for basically infinite sustain while using a normal cost spammable and occasionally using higher cost skills and i feel it needs saying, it works by itself without having to use a gcd on it unlike core of flames.

Yes its not infinite sustain, but its way better than what any one else thats not dk gets, maybe even better than dk because you dont use a skill slots or gcd on it

You make it sound like it's an issue. Sounds great or not? It is not the same sustain as Core of Flame, but it is enough to sustain average spamming. That's fine and expected of a class mastery? Sounds balanced and in line with the potency of other class masteries.

Its better than the best sustain set in the game, probably the best 2 sustain sets put together.
None of the other sustain pure class masteries come even close to how good it is. For comparision, you restore at least 800 magicka and around 350 stamina per second per skill cast and it also activates with bashes and roll dodges you do (you are welcome for the tech). This is around an extra 1600 magicka sustain and 700 stamina sustain. Meanwhile for example templars get 300 magicka and stamina, and when their shield is broken, they lose even that. Do you think these 2 passives are even remotely on the same level? Either sorc and dk sustain has to be lowered or other classes sustain passives need to be brought up

Dracane

acanca wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Atm there is a big discrepancy between 2 classes with near infinite sustain, those being DK with core of flame skill and Sorcerer with Conservation of Energy passive and the rest of the classes sustain passives if they even get a sustain passive to speak of.

Warden- Nature’s Bounty: This passive upgrades rank 2 of Nature’s Gift to grant the healed target Major Heroism for 4.5 seconds and an additional 250 Magicka and Stamina.
This passive does not proc with overheals making it incredibly unreliable and while it has good value outside of its sustain, the passive is very weak for solo purposes. Passie would have to be able to proc off of overheals and have double value when it procs on yourself to be actually a consideration.

Templar- Devout Guardian: This passive causes you to gain a Damage Shield for 6 seconds, up to once every 6 seconds, while Sacred Ground is active. The shield absorbs up to 20% of your Max Health and grants 300 Health, Magicka, and Stamina Recovery while active. If the shield breaks, you gain 10 Ultimate
This is incredibly unreliable for solo and while the ultimate is appreciated, sustain would be appreciated even more. Please let us keep the sustain even when the shield breaks.

NB- No sustain passive to speak. Though it has access to siphoning strikes

Necromancer- No sustain passive

Arcanist - Erudite’s Rigor: This passive upgrades Fatewoven Armor to also grant 1 Ultimate and 300 Magicka and Stamina when you take damage, increasing by 100 Magicka and Stamina per Crux you have, up to once every 2 seconds.
Too unreliable and weak

I think we have a problem in general with passives not related to dealing damage being too weak to actually be worth giving up subclassing for. And it would be really appreciated if the sustain gap between dk, sorc and the rest of the classes be bridged either by buffing the rest or bringing dk and sorc more in line with the rest. Thank you

To clarify, Sorcs Conservation passive isn't quite the major sustain people might think, at least not in testing.

Yes, it's an absolute notable difference in sustain but it's definitely NOT infinite sustain.

In order to proc the passive with any consistency the player needs to be readily casting skills with a cost. Yes, the passive returns more resource than Wretched but it's not enough to offset the amount of resource consistently spent to maintain the proc.

Further, heavy attacks are a staple among Sorcs which won't proc the passive. Sure HA's return resources but it's not as if that's proc'ing the passive for a double stack.

In testing, conservation definitely aided in sustain but it wasn't anywhere near infinite nor did it allow me to cast without consideration for my sustain. Also, like @Dracane mentioned, in order to even access the passive Sorcs have to keep the Dark Magic skill line which is arguably one of the worst skill trees in the game.

I did overland content and bosses etc on my sorc, conversation of energy without any other sustain set was more than enough for me to not run out of sustain ever while testing. And thats on a build where if i take the passive off, i would run out of magicka in less than a minute. When properly built with around 40k max magicka or stamina pool, it is for all intents and purposes infinite sustain.

Of course it doesnt allow for the same level of funny business like core of flame, it wont allow you to keep a stage 10 streak going forever like how core of flame allows currently. Nor will it let you spam a 4-5k cost skill, you will run out while doing those sure. But it allows for basically infinite sustain while using a normal cost spammable and occasionally using higher cost skills and i feel it needs saying, it works by itself without having to use a gcd on it unlike core of flames.

Yes its not infinite sustain, but its way better than what any one else thats not dk gets, maybe even better than dk because you dont use a skill slots or gcd on it

You make it sound like it's an issue. Sounds great or not? It is not the same sustain as Core of Flame, but it is enough to sustain average spamming. That's fine and expected of a class mastery? Sounds balanced and in line with the potency of other class masteries.

Its better than the best sustain set in the game, probably the best 2 sustain sets put together.
None of the other sustain pure class masteries come even close to how good it is. For comparision, you restore at least 800 magicka and around 350 stamina per second per skill cast and it also activates with bashes and roll dodges you do (you are welcome for the tech). This is around an extra 1600 magicka sustain and 700 stamina sustain. Meanwhile for example templars get 300 magicka and stamina, and when their shield is broken, they lose even that. Do you think these 2 passives are even remotely on the same level? Either sorc and dk sustain has to be lowered or other classes sustain passives need to be brought up

I am aware of the tech as you named it.
Since Conservation of Energy is causing problems also in regards to Werewolves, it might be reasonable to limit it to class skills only, but raise the value from 2% to 4% or a middle ground. Sorc realies heavily on non-class skills, so it would be a loss that needs to be compensated for to keep it powerful (again, it has to compensate for Dark Magic existing on my skilltree)

acanca

Dracane wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Atm there is a big discrepancy between 2 classes with near infinite sustain, those being DK with core of flame skill and Sorcerer with Conservation of Energy passive and the rest of the classes sustain passives if they even get a sustain passive to speak of.

Warden- Nature’s Bounty: This passive upgrades rank 2 of Nature’s Gift to grant the healed target Major Heroism for 4.5 seconds and an additional 250 Magicka and Stamina.
This passive does not proc with overheals making it incredibly unreliable and while it has good value outside of its sustain, the passive is very weak for solo purposes. Passie would have to be able to proc off of overheals and have double value when it procs on yourself to be actually a consideration.

Templar- Devout Guardian: This passive causes you to gain a Damage Shield for 6 seconds, up to once every 6 seconds, while Sacred Ground is active. The shield absorbs up to 20% of your Max Health and grants 300 Health, Magicka, and Stamina Recovery while active. If the shield breaks, you gain 10 Ultimate
This is incredibly unreliable for solo and while the ultimate is appreciated, sustain would be appreciated even more. Please let us keep the sustain even when the shield breaks.

NB- No sustain passive to speak. Though it has access to siphoning strikes

Necromancer- No sustain passive

Arcanist - Erudite’s Rigor: This passive upgrades Fatewoven Armor to also grant 1 Ultimate and 300 Magicka and Stamina when you take damage, increasing by 100 Magicka and Stamina per Crux you have, up to once every 2 seconds.
Too unreliable and weak

I think we have a problem in general with passives not related to dealing damage being too weak to actually be worth giving up subclassing for. And it would be really appreciated if the sustain gap between dk, sorc and the rest of the classes be bridged either by buffing the rest or bringing dk and sorc more in line with the rest. Thank you

To clarify, Sorcs Conservation passive isn't quite the major sustain people might think, at least not in testing.

Yes, it's an absolute notable difference in sustain but it's definitely NOT infinite sustain.

In order to proc the passive with any consistency the player needs to be readily casting skills with a cost. Yes, the passive returns more resource than Wretched but it's not enough to offset the amount of resource consistently spent to maintain the proc.

Further, heavy attacks are a staple among Sorcs which won't proc the passive. Sure HA's return resources but it's not as if that's proc'ing the passive for a double stack.

In testing, conservation definitely aided in sustain but it wasn't anywhere near infinite nor did it allow me to cast without consideration for my sustain. Also, like @Dracane mentioned, in order to even access the passive Sorcs have to keep the Dark Magic skill line which is arguably one of the worst skill trees in the game.

I did overland content and bosses etc on my sorc, conversation of energy without any other sustain set was more than enough for me to not run out of sustain ever while testing. And thats on a build where if i take the passive off, i would run out of magicka in less than a minute. When properly built with around 40k max magicka or stamina pool, it is for all intents and purposes infinite sustain.

Of course it doesnt allow for the same level of funny business like core of flame, it wont allow you to keep a stage 10 streak going forever like how core of flame allows currently. Nor will it let you spam a 4-5k cost skill, you will run out while doing those sure. But it allows for basically infinite sustain while using a normal cost spammable and occasionally using higher cost skills and i feel it needs saying, it works by itself without having to use a gcd on it unlike core of flames.

Yes its not infinite sustain, but its way better than what any one else thats not dk gets, maybe even better than dk because you dont use a skill slots or gcd on it

You make it sound like it's an issue. Sounds great or not? It is not the same sustain as Core of Flame, but it is enough to sustain average spamming. That's fine and expected of a class mastery? Sounds balanced and in line with the potency of other class masteries.

Its better than the best sustain set in the game, probably the best 2 sustain sets put together.
None of the other sustain pure class masteries come even close to how good it is. For comparision, you restore at least 800 magicka and around 350 stamina per second per skill cast and it also activates with bashes and roll dodges you do (you are welcome for the tech). This is around an extra 1600 magicka sustain and 700 stamina sustain. Meanwhile for example templars get 300 magicka and stamina, and when their shield is broken, they lose even that. Do you think these 2 passives are even remotely on the same level? Either sorc and dk sustain has to be lowered or other classes sustain passives need to be brought up

I am aware of the tech as you named it.
Since Conservation of Energy is causing problems also in regards to Werewolves, it might be reasonable to limit it to class skills only, but raise the value from 2% to 4% or a middle ground. Sorc realies heavily on non-class skills, so it would be a loss that needs to be compensated for to keep it powerful (again, it has to compensate for Dark Magic existing on my skilltree)

I would like ZOS to limit to the resources restored to 2% max magicka or stamina up to 500 after which you dont get any more resources. This is effectively 1k magicka or stamina sustain which is still miles ahead of what any other class gets and its basically 2.5 siphoning attacks for free, more than reasonable.

For DK's i would ask for for reducing the missing resource restored to 10% with battle spirit active down from 15%

Edit: Or they can bring other classes sustain up to dk and sorc's level but this is honestly easier. There is no reason for these two classes to be so privileged

Aces-High-82

acanca wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Atm there is a big discrepancy between 2 classes with near infinite sustain, those being DK with core of flame skill and Sorcerer with Conservation of Energy passive and the rest of the classes sustain passives if they even get a sustain passive to speak of.

Warden- Nature’s Bounty: This passive upgrades rank 2 of Nature’s Gift to grant the healed target Major Heroism for 4.5 seconds and an additional 250 Magicka and Stamina.
This passive does not proc with overheals making it incredibly unreliable and while it has good value outside of its sustain, the passive is very weak for solo purposes. Passie would have to be able to proc off of overheals and have double value when it procs on yourself to be actually a consideration.

Templar- Devout Guardian: This passive causes you to gain a Damage Shield for 6 seconds, up to once every 6 seconds, while Sacred Ground is active. The shield absorbs up to 20% of your Max Health and grants 300 Health, Magicka, and Stamina Recovery while active. If the shield breaks, you gain 10 Ultimate
This is incredibly unreliable for solo and while the ultimate is appreciated, sustain would be appreciated even more. Please let us keep the sustain even when the shield breaks.

NB- No sustain passive to speak. Though it has access to siphoning strikes

Necromancer- No sustain passive

Arcanist - Erudite’s Rigor: This passive upgrades Fatewoven Armor to also grant 1 Ultimate and 300 Magicka and Stamina when you take damage, increasing by 100 Magicka and Stamina per Crux you have, up to once every 2 seconds.
Too unreliable and weak

I think we have a problem in general with passives not related to dealing damage being too weak to actually be worth giving up subclassing for. And it would be really appreciated if the sustain gap between dk, sorc and the rest of the classes be bridged either by buffing the rest or bringing dk and sorc more in line with the rest. Thank you

To clarify, Sorcs Conservation passive isn't quite the major sustain people might think, at least not in testing.

Yes, it's an absolute notable difference in sustain but it's definitely NOT infinite sustain.

In order to proc the passive with any consistency the player needs to be readily casting skills with a cost. Yes, the passive returns more resource than Wretched but it's not enough to offset the amount of resource consistently spent to maintain the proc.

Further, heavy attacks are a staple among Sorcs which won't proc the passive. Sure HA's return resources but it's not as if that's proc'ing the passive for a double stack.

In testing, conservation definitely aided in sustain but it wasn't anywhere near infinite nor did it allow me to cast without consideration for my sustain. Also, like @Dracane mentioned, in order to even access the passive Sorcs have to keep the Dark Magic skill line which is arguably one of the worst skill trees in the game.

I did overland content and bosses etc on my sorc, conversation of energy without any other sustain set was more than enough for me to not run out of sustain ever while testing. And thats on a build where if i take the passive off, i would run out of magicka in less than a minute. When properly built with around 40k max magicka or stamina pool, it is for all intents and purposes infinite sustain.

Of course it doesnt allow for the same level of funny business like core of flame, it wont allow you to keep a stage 10 streak going forever like how core of flame allows currently. Nor will it let you spam a 4-5k cost skill, you will run out while doing those sure. But it allows for basically infinite sustain while using a normal cost spammable and occasionally using higher cost skills and i feel it needs saying, it works by itself without having to use a gcd on it unlike core of flames.

Yes its not infinite sustain, but its way better than what any one else thats not dk gets, maybe even better than dk because you dont use a skill slots or gcd on it

You make it sound like it's an issue. Sounds great or not? It is not the same sustain as Core of Flame, but it is enough to sustain average spamming. That's fine and expected of a class mastery? Sounds balanced and in line with the potency of other class masteries.

Its better than the best sustain set in the game, probably the best 2 sustain sets put together.
None of the other sustain pure class masteries come even close to how good it is. For comparision, you restore at least 800 magicka and around 350 stamina per second per skill cast and it also activates with bashes and roll dodges you do (you are welcome for the tech). This is around an extra 1600 magicka sustain and 700 stamina sustain. Meanwhile for example templars get 300 magicka and stamina, and when their shield is broken, they lose even that. Do you think these 2 passives are even remotely on the same level? Either sorc and dk sustain has to be lowered or other classes sustain passives need to be brought up

If you already compare it to Templar you should put the sustain provided by Rune too.
To reach the values you mentioned you have to stack mag to 40k and 17.5k stam. Since stat stacking isnt the best scaling way to increase your damage that seems fine to me.

Dracane

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Atm there is a big discrepancy between 2 classes with near infinite sustain, those being DK with core of flame skill and Sorcerer with Conservation of Energy passive and the rest of the classes sustain passives if they even get a sustain passive to speak of.

Warden- Nature’s Bounty: This passive upgrades rank 2 of Nature’s Gift to grant the healed target Major Heroism for 4.5 seconds and an additional 250 Magicka and Stamina.
This passive does not proc with overheals making it incredibly unreliable and while it has good value outside of its sustain, the passive is very weak for solo purposes. Passie would have to be able to proc off of overheals and have double value when it procs on yourself to be actually a consideration.

Templar- Devout Guardian: This passive causes you to gain a Damage Shield for 6 seconds, up to once every 6 seconds, while Sacred Ground is active. The shield absorbs up to 20% of your Max Health and grants 300 Health, Magicka, and Stamina Recovery while active. If the shield breaks, you gain 10 Ultimate
This is incredibly unreliable for solo and while the ultimate is appreciated, sustain would be appreciated even more. Please let us keep the sustain even when the shield breaks.

NB- No sustain passive to speak. Though it has access to siphoning strikes

Necromancer- No sustain passive

Arcanist - Erudite’s Rigor: This passive upgrades Fatewoven Armor to also grant 1 Ultimate and 300 Magicka and Stamina when you take damage, increasing by 100 Magicka and Stamina per Crux you have, up to once every 2 seconds.
Too unreliable and weak

I think we have a problem in general with passives not related to dealing damage being too weak to actually be worth giving up subclassing for. And it would be really appreciated if the sustain gap between dk, sorc and the rest of the classes be bridged either by buffing the rest or bringing dk and sorc more in line with the rest. Thank you

To clarify, Sorcs Conservation passive isn't quite the major sustain people might think, at least not in testing.

Yes, it's an absolute notable difference in sustain but it's definitely NOT infinite sustain.

In order to proc the passive with any consistency the player needs to be readily casting skills with a cost. Yes, the passive returns more resource than Wretched but it's not enough to offset the amount of resource consistently spent to maintain the proc.

Further, heavy attacks are a staple among Sorcs which won't proc the passive. Sure HA's return resources but it's not as if that's proc'ing the passive for a double stack.

In testing, conservation definitely aided in sustain but it wasn't anywhere near infinite nor did it allow me to cast without consideration for my sustain. Also, like @Dracane mentioned, in order to even access the passive Sorcs have to keep the Dark Magic skill line which is arguably one of the worst skill trees in the game.

I did overland content and bosses etc on my sorc, conversation of energy without any other sustain set was more than enough for me to not run out of sustain ever while testing. And thats on a build where if i take the passive off, i would run out of magicka in less than a minute. When properly built with around 40k max magicka or stamina pool, it is for all intents and purposes infinite sustain.

Of course it doesnt allow for the same level of funny business like core of flame, it wont allow you to keep a stage 10 streak going forever like how core of flame allows currently. Nor will it let you spam a 4-5k cost skill, you will run out while doing those sure. But it allows for basically infinite sustain while using a normal cost spammable and occasionally using higher cost skills and i feel it needs saying, it works by itself without having to use a gcd on it unlike core of flames.

Yes its not infinite sustain, but its way better than what any one else thats not dk gets, maybe even better than dk because you dont use a skill slots or gcd on it

You make it sound like it's an issue. Sounds great or not? It is not the same sustain as Core of Flame, but it is enough to sustain average spamming. That's fine and expected of a class mastery? Sounds balanced and in line with the potency of other class masteries.

Its better than the best sustain set in the game, probably the best 2 sustain sets put together.
None of the other sustain pure class masteries come even close to how good it is. For comparision, you restore at least 800 magicka and around 350 stamina per second per skill cast and it also activates with bashes and roll dodges you do (you are welcome for the tech). This is around an extra 1600 magicka sustain and 700 stamina sustain. Meanwhile for example templars get 300 magicka and stamina, and when their shield is broken, they lose even that. Do you think these 2 passives are even remotely on the same level? Either sorc and dk sustain has to be lowered or other classes sustain passives need to be brought up

If you already compare it to Templar you should put the sustain provided by Rune too.
To reach the values you mentioned you have to stack mag to 40k and 17.5k stam. Since stat stacking isnt the best scaling way to increase your damage that seems fine to me.

Indeed. The majority of builds don't even have 40k or near it. You pay handsomely for stacking ressources, so it seems doubly reasonable to set the values as such.

YandereGirlfriend

acanca wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Atm there is a big discrepancy between 2 classes with near infinite sustain, those being DK with core of flame skill and Sorcerer with Conservation of Energy passive and the rest of the classes sustain passives if they even get a sustain passive to speak of.

Warden- Nature’s Bounty: This passive upgrades rank 2 of Nature’s Gift to grant the healed target Major Heroism for 4.5 seconds and an additional 250 Magicka and Stamina.
This passive does not proc with overheals making it incredibly unreliable and while it has good value outside of its sustain, the passive is very weak for solo purposes. Passie would have to be able to proc off of overheals and have double value when it procs on yourself to be actually a consideration.

Templar- Devout Guardian: This passive causes you to gain a Damage Shield for 6 seconds, up to once every 6 seconds, while Sacred Ground is active. The shield absorbs up to 20% of your Max Health and grants 300 Health, Magicka, and Stamina Recovery while active. If the shield breaks, you gain 10 Ultimate
This is incredibly unreliable for solo and while the ultimate is appreciated, sustain would be appreciated even more. Please let us keep the sustain even when the shield breaks.

NB- No sustain passive to speak. Though it has access to siphoning strikes

Necromancer- No sustain passive

Arcanist - Erudite’s Rigor: This passive upgrades Fatewoven Armor to also grant 1 Ultimate and 300 Magicka and Stamina when you take damage, increasing by 100 Magicka and Stamina per Crux you have, up to once every 2 seconds.
Too unreliable and weak

I think we have a problem in general with passives not related to dealing damage being too weak to actually be worth giving up subclassing for. And it would be really appreciated if the sustain gap between dk, sorc and the rest of the classes be bridged either by buffing the rest or bringing dk and sorc more in line with the rest. Thank you

To clarify, Sorcs Conservation passive isn't quite the major sustain people might think, at least not in testing.

Yes, it's an absolute notable difference in sustain but it's definitely NOT infinite sustain.

In order to proc the passive with any consistency the player needs to be readily casting skills with a cost. Yes, the passive returns more resource than Wretched but it's not enough to offset the amount of resource consistently spent to maintain the proc.

Further, heavy attacks are a staple among Sorcs which won't proc the passive. Sure HA's return resources but it's not as if that's proc'ing the passive for a double stack.

In testing, conservation definitely aided in sustain but it wasn't anywhere near infinite nor did it allow me to cast without consideration for my sustain. Also, like @Dracane mentioned, in order to even access the passive Sorcs have to keep the Dark Magic skill line which is arguably one of the worst skill trees in the game.

I did overland content and bosses etc on my sorc, conversation of energy without any other sustain set was more than enough for me to not run out of sustain ever while testing. And thats on a build where if i take the passive off, i would run out of magicka in less than a minute. When properly built with around 40k max magicka or stamina pool, it is for all intents and purposes infinite sustain.

Of course it doesnt allow for the same level of funny business like core of flame, it wont allow you to keep a stage 10 streak going forever like how core of flame allows currently. Nor will it let you spam a 4-5k cost skill, you will run out while doing those sure. But it allows for basically infinite sustain while using a normal cost spammable and occasionally using higher cost skills and i feel it needs saying, it works by itself without having to use a gcd on it unlike core of flames.

Yes its not infinite sustain, but its way better than what any one else thats not dk gets, maybe even better than dk because you dont use a skill slots or gcd on it

You make it sound like it's an issue. Sounds great or not? It is not the same sustain as Core of Flame, but it is enough to sustain average spamming. That's fine and expected of a class mastery? Sounds balanced and in line with the potency of other class masteries.

Its better than the best sustain set in the game, probably the best 2 sustain sets put together.
None of the other sustain pure class masteries come even close to how good it is. For comparision, you restore at least 800 magicka and around 350 stamina per second per skill cast and it also activates with bashes and roll dodges you do (you are welcome for the tech). This is around an extra 1600 magicka sustain and 700 stamina sustain. Meanwhile for example templars get 300 magicka and stamina, and when their shield is broken, they lose even that. Do you think these 2 passives are even remotely on the same level? Either sorc and dk sustain has to be lowered or other classes sustain passives need to be brought up

I am aware of the tech as you named it.
Since Conservation of Energy is causing problems also in regards to Werewolves, it might be reasonable to limit it to class skills only, but raise the value from 2% to 4% or a middle ground. Sorc realies heavily on non-class skills, so it would be a loss that needs to be compensated for to keep it powerful (again, it has to compensate for Dark Magic existing on my skilltree)

I would like ZOS to limit to the resources restored to 2% max magicka or stamina up to 500 after which you dont get any more resources. This is effectively 1k magicka or stamina sustain which is still miles ahead of what any other class gets and its basically 2.5 siphoning attacks for free, more than reasonable.

For DK's i would ask for for reducing the missing resource restored to 10% with battle spirit active down from 15%

Edit: Or they can bring other classes sustain up to dk and sorc's level but this is honestly easier. There is no reason for these two classes to be so privileged

Pretty sure that one of the big design imperatives for the reworks is to give all classes a strong self-sustain mechanism. But not all classes are being reworked at the same time so some must wait longer than others. As a Necro-enjoyer whose class will be reworked literally last, that is fine and it is what it is. I trust the process.

I remember back when NB got the Siphoning Strikes rework and it was like wildly overpowered compared to anything else at the time. But now everyone just accepts it as normal and has moved on with life. Eventually, all classes will have something like that. It likely rates as very popular in whatever metrics the devs look at. Because nobody ever enjoys having trash sustain.

Certainly, some of these class passives can be bumped-up. But I would not consider anything to be in a finished state until its respective class rework arrives.

Dracane

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Atm there is a big discrepancy between 2 classes with near infinite sustain, those being DK with core of flame skill and Sorcerer with Conservation of Energy passive and the rest of the classes sustain passives if they even get a sustain passive to speak of.

Warden- Nature’s Bounty: This passive upgrades rank 2 of Nature’s Gift to grant the healed target Major Heroism for 4.5 seconds and an additional 250 Magicka and Stamina.
This passive does not proc with overheals making it incredibly unreliable and while it has good value outside of its sustain, the passive is very weak for solo purposes. Passie would have to be able to proc off of overheals and have double value when it procs on yourself to be actually a consideration.

Templar- Devout Guardian: This passive causes you to gain a Damage Shield for 6 seconds, up to once every 6 seconds, while Sacred Ground is active. The shield absorbs up to 20% of your Max Health and grants 300 Health, Magicka, and Stamina Recovery while active. If the shield breaks, you gain 10 Ultimate
This is incredibly unreliable for solo and while the ultimate is appreciated, sustain would be appreciated even more. Please let us keep the sustain even when the shield breaks.

NB- No sustain passive to speak. Though it has access to siphoning strikes

Necromancer- No sustain passive

Arcanist - Erudite’s Rigor: This passive upgrades Fatewoven Armor to also grant 1 Ultimate and 300 Magicka and Stamina when you take damage, increasing by 100 Magicka and Stamina per Crux you have, up to once every 2 seconds.
Too unreliable and weak

I think we have a problem in general with passives not related to dealing damage being too weak to actually be worth giving up subclassing for. And it would be really appreciated if the sustain gap between dk, sorc and the rest of the classes be bridged either by buffing the rest or bringing dk and sorc more in line with the rest. Thank you

To clarify, Sorcs Conservation passive isn't quite the major sustain people might think, at least not in testing.

Yes, it's an absolute notable difference in sustain but it's definitely NOT infinite sustain.

In order to proc the passive with any consistency the player needs to be readily casting skills with a cost. Yes, the passive returns more resource than Wretched but it's not enough to offset the amount of resource consistently spent to maintain the proc.

Further, heavy attacks are a staple among Sorcs which won't proc the passive. Sure HA's return resources but it's not as if that's proc'ing the passive for a double stack.

In testing, conservation definitely aided in sustain but it wasn't anywhere near infinite nor did it allow me to cast without consideration for my sustain. Also, like @Dracane mentioned, in order to even access the passive Sorcs have to keep the Dark Magic skill line which is arguably one of the worst skill trees in the game.

I did overland content and bosses etc on my sorc, conversation of energy without any other sustain set was more than enough for me to not run out of sustain ever while testing. And thats on a build where if i take the passive off, i would run out of magicka in less than a minute. When properly built with around 40k max magicka or stamina pool, it is for all intents and purposes infinite sustain.

Of course it doesnt allow for the same level of funny business like core of flame, it wont allow you to keep a stage 10 streak going forever like how core of flame allows currently. Nor will it let you spam a 4-5k cost skill, you will run out while doing those sure. But it allows for basically infinite sustain while using a normal cost spammable and occasionally using higher cost skills and i feel it needs saying, it works by itself without having to use a gcd on it unlike core of flames.

Yes its not infinite sustain, but its way better than what any one else thats not dk gets, maybe even better than dk because you dont use a skill slots or gcd on it

You make it sound like it's an issue. Sounds great or not? It is not the same sustain as Core of Flame, but it is enough to sustain average spamming. That's fine and expected of a class mastery? Sounds balanced and in line with the potency of other class masteries.

Its better than the best sustain set in the game, probably the best 2 sustain sets put together.
None of the other sustain pure class masteries come even close to how good it is. For comparision, you restore at least 800 magicka and around 350 stamina per second per skill cast and it also activates with bashes and roll dodges you do (you are welcome for the tech). This is around an extra 1600 magicka sustain and 700 stamina sustain. Meanwhile for example templars get 300 magicka and stamina, and when their shield is broken, they lose even that. Do you think these 2 passives are even remotely on the same level? Either sorc and dk sustain has to be lowered or other classes sustain passives need to be brought up

I am aware of the tech as you named it.
Since Conservation of Energy is causing problems also in regards to Werewolves, it might be reasonable to limit it to class skills only, but raise the value from 2% to 4% or a middle ground. Sorc realies heavily on non-class skills, so it would be a loss that needs to be compensated for to keep it powerful (again, it has to compensate for Dark Magic existing on my skilltree)

I would like ZOS to limit to the resources restored to 2% max magicka or stamina up to 500 after which you dont get any more resources. This is effectively 1k magicka or stamina sustain which is still miles ahead of what any other class gets and its basically 2.5 siphoning attacks for free, more than reasonable.

For DK's i would ask for for reducing the missing resource restored to 10% with battle spirit active down from 15%

Edit: Or they can bring other classes sustain up to dk and sorc's level but this is honestly easier. There is no reason for these two classes to be so privileged

Pretty sure that one of the big design imperatives for the reworks is to give all classes a strong self-sustain mechanism. But not all classes are being reworked at the same time so some must wait longer than others. As a Necro-enjoyer whose class will be reworked literally last, that is fine and it is what it is. I trust the process.

I remember back when NB got the Siphoning Strikes rework and it was like wildly overpowered compared to anything else at the time. But now everyone just accepts it as normal and has moved on with life. Eventually, all classes will have something like that. It likely rates as very popular in whatever metrics the devs look at. Because nobody ever enjoys having trash sustain.

Certainly, some of these class passives can be bumped-up. But I would not consider anything to be in a finished state until its respective class rework arrives.

You speak true. And truly, no one wants to constantly be out of ressources; an issue I had felt in ESO for many years.
It's good to see it becoming better one class at a time. Naturally people will get angry when another class also finally gets their share. But in the end all will end up there.

acanca

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Atm there is a big discrepancy between 2 classes with near infinite sustain, those being DK with core of flame skill and Sorcerer with Conservation of Energy passive and the rest of the classes sustain passives if they even get a sustain passive to speak of.

Warden- Nature’s Bounty: This passive upgrades rank 2 of Nature’s Gift to grant the healed target Major Heroism for 4.5 seconds and an additional 250 Magicka and Stamina.
This passive does not proc with overheals making it incredibly unreliable and while it has good value outside of its sustain, the passive is very weak for solo purposes. Passie would have to be able to proc off of overheals and have double value when it procs on yourself to be actually a consideration.

Templar- Devout Guardian: This passive causes you to gain a Damage Shield for 6 seconds, up to once every 6 seconds, while Sacred Ground is active. The shield absorbs up to 20% of your Max Health and grants 300 Health, Magicka, and Stamina Recovery while active. If the shield breaks, you gain 10 Ultimate
This is incredibly unreliable for solo and while the ultimate is appreciated, sustain would be appreciated even more. Please let us keep the sustain even when the shield breaks.

NB- No sustain passive to speak. Though it has access to siphoning strikes

Necromancer- No sustain passive

Arcanist - Erudite’s Rigor: This passive upgrades Fatewoven Armor to also grant 1 Ultimate and 300 Magicka and Stamina when you take damage, increasing by 100 Magicka and Stamina per Crux you have, up to once every 2 seconds.
Too unreliable and weak

I think we have a problem in general with passives not related to dealing damage being too weak to actually be worth giving up subclassing for. And it would be really appreciated if the sustain gap between dk, sorc and the rest of the classes be bridged either by buffing the rest or bringing dk and sorc more in line with the rest. Thank you

To clarify, Sorcs Conservation passive isn't quite the major sustain people might think, at least not in testing.

Yes, it's an absolute notable difference in sustain but it's definitely NOT infinite sustain.

In order to proc the passive with any consistency the player needs to be readily casting skills with a cost. Yes, the passive returns more resource than Wretched but it's not enough to offset the amount of resource consistently spent to maintain the proc.

Further, heavy attacks are a staple among Sorcs which won't proc the passive. Sure HA's return resources but it's not as if that's proc'ing the passive for a double stack.

In testing, conservation definitely aided in sustain but it wasn't anywhere near infinite nor did it allow me to cast without consideration for my sustain. Also, like @Dracane mentioned, in order to even access the passive Sorcs have to keep the Dark Magic skill line which is arguably one of the worst skill trees in the game.

I did overland content and bosses etc on my sorc, conversation of energy without any other sustain set was more than enough for me to not run out of sustain ever while testing. And thats on a build where if i take the passive off, i would run out of magicka in less than a minute. When properly built with around 40k max magicka or stamina pool, it is for all intents and purposes infinite sustain.

Of course it doesnt allow for the same level of funny business like core of flame, it wont allow you to keep a stage 10 streak going forever like how core of flame allows currently. Nor will it let you spam a 4-5k cost skill, you will run out while doing those sure. But it allows for basically infinite sustain while using a normal cost spammable and occasionally using higher cost skills and i feel it needs saying, it works by itself without having to use a gcd on it unlike core of flames.

Yes its not infinite sustain, but its way better than what any one else thats not dk gets, maybe even better than dk because you dont use a skill slots or gcd on it

You make it sound like it's an issue. Sounds great or not? It is not the same sustain as Core of Flame, but it is enough to sustain average spamming. That's fine and expected of a class mastery? Sounds balanced and in line with the potency of other class masteries.

Its better than the best sustain set in the game, probably the best 2 sustain sets put together.
None of the other sustain pure class masteries come even close to how good it is. For comparision, you restore at least 800 magicka and around 350 stamina per second per skill cast and it also activates with bashes and roll dodges you do (you are welcome for the tech). This is around an extra 1600 magicka sustain and 700 stamina sustain. Meanwhile for example templars get 300 magicka and stamina, and when their shield is broken, they lose even that. Do you think these 2 passives are even remotely on the same level? Either sorc and dk sustain has to be lowered or other classes sustain passives need to be brought up

If you already compare it to Templar you should put the sustain provided by Rune too.
To reach the values you mentioned you have to stack mag to 40k and 17.5k stam. Since stat stacking isnt the best scaling way to increase your damage that seems fine to me.

You can get to 40k max magicka and easily have 6k+ weapon damage currently on sorc with 0 max magicka set or a single weapon damage set.
Edit: This is using 0 max magicka set, 0 weapon damage set. Its not stacking anything, its not even stacking max magicka on enchants. It doesnt have any raid buffs or the like and all it has is self buffs like major brutality. 42k max magicka, 6.4k weapon damage. Can we please move past the narrative that this is somehow hard to get? Thank you

acanca

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Atm there is a big discrepancy between 2 classes with near infinite sustain, those being DK with core of flame skill and Sorcerer with Conservation of Energy passive and the rest of the classes sustain passives if they even get a sustain passive to speak of.

Warden- Nature’s Bounty: This passive upgrades rank 2 of Nature’s Gift to grant the healed target Major Heroism for 4.5 seconds and an additional 250 Magicka and Stamina.
This passive does not proc with overheals making it incredibly unreliable and while it has good value outside of its sustain, the passive is very weak for solo purposes. Passie would have to be able to proc off of overheals and have double value when it procs on yourself to be actually a consideration.

Templar- Devout Guardian: This passive causes you to gain a Damage Shield for 6 seconds, up to once every 6 seconds, while Sacred Ground is active. The shield absorbs up to 20% of your Max Health and grants 300 Health, Magicka, and Stamina Recovery while active. If the shield breaks, you gain 10 Ultimate
This is incredibly unreliable for solo and while the ultimate is appreciated, sustain would be appreciated even more. Please let us keep the sustain even when the shield breaks.

NB- No sustain passive to speak. Though it has access to siphoning strikes

Necromancer- No sustain passive

Arcanist - Erudite’s Rigor: This passive upgrades Fatewoven Armor to also grant 1 Ultimate and 300 Magicka and Stamina when you take damage, increasing by 100 Magicka and Stamina per Crux you have, up to once every 2 seconds.
Too unreliable and weak

I think we have a problem in general with passives not related to dealing damage being too weak to actually be worth giving up subclassing for. And it would be really appreciated if the sustain gap between dk, sorc and the rest of the classes be bridged either by buffing the rest or bringing dk and sorc more in line with the rest. Thank you

To clarify, Sorcs Conservation passive isn't quite the major sustain people might think, at least not in testing.

Yes, it's an absolute notable difference in sustain but it's definitely NOT infinite sustain.

In order to proc the passive with any consistency the player needs to be readily casting skills with a cost. Yes, the passive returns more resource than Wretched but it's not enough to offset the amount of resource consistently spent to maintain the proc.

Further, heavy attacks are a staple among Sorcs which won't proc the passive. Sure HA's return resources but it's not as if that's proc'ing the passive for a double stack.

In testing, conservation definitely aided in sustain but it wasn't anywhere near infinite nor did it allow me to cast without consideration for my sustain. Also, like @Dracane mentioned, in order to even access the passive Sorcs have to keep the Dark Magic skill line which is arguably one of the worst skill trees in the game.

I did overland content and bosses etc on my sorc, conversation of energy without any other sustain set was more than enough for me to not run out of sustain ever while testing. And thats on a build where if i take the passive off, i would run out of magicka in less than a minute. When properly built with around 40k max magicka or stamina pool, it is for all intents and purposes infinite sustain.

Of course it doesnt allow for the same level of funny business like core of flame, it wont allow you to keep a stage 10 streak going forever like how core of flame allows currently. Nor will it let you spam a 4-5k cost skill, you will run out while doing those sure. But it allows for basically infinite sustain while using a normal cost spammable and occasionally using higher cost skills and i feel it needs saying, it works by itself without having to use a gcd on it unlike core of flames.

Yes its not infinite sustain, but its way better than what any one else thats not dk gets, maybe even better than dk because you dont use a skill slots or gcd on it

You make it sound like it's an issue. Sounds great or not? It is not the same sustain as Core of Flame, but it is enough to sustain average spamming. That's fine and expected of a class mastery? Sounds balanced and in line with the potency of other class masteries.

Its better than the best sustain set in the game, probably the best 2 sustain sets put together.
None of the other sustain pure class masteries come even close to how good it is. For comparision, you restore at least 800 magicka and around 350 stamina per second per skill cast and it also activates with bashes and roll dodges you do (you are welcome for the tech). This is around an extra 1600 magicka sustain and 700 stamina sustain. Meanwhile for example templars get 300 magicka and stamina, and when their shield is broken, they lose even that. Do you think these 2 passives are even remotely on the same level? Either sorc and dk sustain has to be lowered or other classes sustain passives need to be brought up

I am aware of the tech as you named it.
Since Conservation of Energy is causing problems also in regards to Werewolves, it might be reasonable to limit it to class skills only, but raise the value from 2% to 4% or a middle ground. Sorc realies heavily on non-class skills, so it would be a loss that needs to be compensated for to keep it powerful (again, it has to compensate for Dark Magic existing on my skilltree)

I would like ZOS to limit to the resources restored to 2% max magicka or stamina up to 500 after which you dont get any more resources. This is effectively 1k magicka or stamina sustain which is still miles ahead of what any other class gets and its basically 2.5 siphoning attacks for free, more than reasonable.

For DK's i would ask for for reducing the missing resource restored to 10% with battle spirit active down from 15%

Edit: Or they can bring other classes sustain up to dk and sorc's level but this is honestly easier. There is no reason for these two classes to be so privileged

Pretty sure that one of the big design imperatives for the reworks is to give all classes a strong self-sustain mechanism. But not all classes are being reworked at the same time so some must wait longer than others. As a Necro-enjoyer whose class will be reworked literally last, that is fine and it is what it is. I trust the process.

I remember back when NB got the Siphoning Strikes rework and it was like wildly overpowered compared to anything else at the time. But now everyone just accepts it as normal and has moved on with life. Eventually, all classes will have something like that. It likely rates as very popular in whatever metrics the devs look at. Because nobody ever enjoys having trash sustain.

Certainly, some of these class passives can be bumped-up. But I would not consider anything to be in a finished state until its respective class rework arrives.

I think thats a wrong way to look at it. If this is a stop gap measure until reworks than why does dk get some of the best class masteries. We are now well past that narrative in my opinion. I would like them to give specially necro some more love. It was a big mistake to exclude players from Malevolent Promise passive and they gave Necro no sustain passive, this is in my opinion, a mistake and i hope Zos corrects this before class masteries hit live servers as it seems much easier to correct mistakes in pts.

Dracane

acanca wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Atm there is a big discrepancy between 2 classes with near infinite sustain, those being DK with core of flame skill and Sorcerer with Conservation of Energy passive and the rest of the classes sustain passives if they even get a sustain passive to speak of.

Warden- Nature’s Bounty: This passive upgrades rank 2 of Nature’s Gift to grant the healed target Major Heroism for 4.5 seconds and an additional 250 Magicka and Stamina.
This passive does not proc with overheals making it incredibly unreliable and while it has good value outside of its sustain, the passive is very weak for solo purposes. Passie would have to be able to proc off of overheals and have double value when it procs on yourself to be actually a consideration.

Templar- Devout Guardian: This passive causes you to gain a Damage Shield for 6 seconds, up to once every 6 seconds, while Sacred Ground is active. The shield absorbs up to 20% of your Max Health and grants 300 Health, Magicka, and Stamina Recovery while active. If the shield breaks, you gain 10 Ultimate
This is incredibly unreliable for solo and while the ultimate is appreciated, sustain would be appreciated even more. Please let us keep the sustain even when the shield breaks.

NB- No sustain passive to speak. Though it has access to siphoning strikes

Necromancer- No sustain passive

Arcanist - Erudite’s Rigor: This passive upgrades Fatewoven Armor to also grant 1 Ultimate and 300 Magicka and Stamina when you take damage, increasing by 100 Magicka and Stamina per Crux you have, up to once every 2 seconds.
Too unreliable and weak

I think we have a problem in general with passives not related to dealing damage being too weak to actually be worth giving up subclassing for. And it would be really appreciated if the sustain gap between dk, sorc and the rest of the classes be bridged either by buffing the rest or bringing dk and sorc more in line with the rest. Thank you

To clarify, Sorcs Conservation passive isn't quite the major sustain people might think, at least not in testing.

Yes, it's an absolute notable difference in sustain but it's definitely NOT infinite sustain.

In order to proc the passive with any consistency the player needs to be readily casting skills with a cost. Yes, the passive returns more resource than Wretched but it's not enough to offset the amount of resource consistently spent to maintain the proc.

Further, heavy attacks are a staple among Sorcs which won't proc the passive. Sure HA's return resources but it's not as if that's proc'ing the passive for a double stack.

In testing, conservation definitely aided in sustain but it wasn't anywhere near infinite nor did it allow me to cast without consideration for my sustain. Also, like @Dracane mentioned, in order to even access the passive Sorcs have to keep the Dark Magic skill line which is arguably one of the worst skill trees in the game.

I did overland content and bosses etc on my sorc, conversation of energy without any other sustain set was more than enough for me to not run out of sustain ever while testing. And thats on a build where if i take the passive off, i would run out of magicka in less than a minute. When properly built with around 40k max magicka or stamina pool, it is for all intents and purposes infinite sustain.

Of course it doesnt allow for the same level of funny business like core of flame, it wont allow you to keep a stage 10 streak going forever like how core of flame allows currently. Nor will it let you spam a 4-5k cost skill, you will run out while doing those sure. But it allows for basically infinite sustain while using a normal cost spammable and occasionally using higher cost skills and i feel it needs saying, it works by itself without having to use a gcd on it unlike core of flames.

Yes its not infinite sustain, but its way better than what any one else thats not dk gets, maybe even better than dk because you dont use a skill slots or gcd on it

You make it sound like it's an issue. Sounds great or not? It is not the same sustain as Core of Flame, but it is enough to sustain average spamming. That's fine and expected of a class mastery? Sounds balanced and in line with the potency of other class masteries.

Its better than the best sustain set in the game, probably the best 2 sustain sets put together.
None of the other sustain pure class masteries come even close to how good it is. For comparision, you restore at least 800 magicka and around 350 stamina per second per skill cast and it also activates with bashes and roll dodges you do (you are welcome for the tech). This is around an extra 1600 magicka sustain and 700 stamina sustain. Meanwhile for example templars get 300 magicka and stamina, and when their shield is broken, they lose even that. Do you think these 2 passives are even remotely on the same level? Either sorc and dk sustain has to be lowered or other classes sustain passives need to be brought up

If you already compare it to Templar you should put the sustain provided by Rune too.
To reach the values you mentioned you have to stack mag to 40k and 17.5k stam. Since stat stacking isnt the best scaling way to increase your damage that seems fine to me.

You can get to 40k max magicka and easily have 6k+ weapon damage currently on sorc with 0 max magicka set or a single weapon damage set.

I am not saying that it is difficult. Far from it. It's more whether it's really efficient or not to stack a lot, because you will have to make disadvantageous gear choices to move past a certain point. Choices you are better off not making, that aren't worth 1% more spell damage.

Dracane

acanca wrote: »

I think thats a wrong way to look at it. If this is a stop gap measure until reworks than why does dk get some of the best class masteries. We are now well past that narrative in my opinion. I would like them to give specially necro some more love. It was a big mistake to exclude players from Malevolent Promise passive and they gave Necro no sustain passive, this is in my opinion, a mistake and i hope Zos corrects this before class masteries hit live servers as it seems much easier to correct mistakes in pts.

I have the same question. This being the case, we can surely expect classes to keep their current class masteries more or less intact value wise, when even the already overpowered Dragonknight gets some of the best talents. A Casus Belli if you will.

acanca

Dracane wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

I think thats a wrong way to look at it. If this is a stop gap measure until reworks than why does dk get some of the best class masteries. We are now well past that narrative in my opinion. I would like them to give specially necro some more love. It was a big mistake to exclude players from Malevolent Promise passive and they gave Necro no sustain passive, this is in my opinion, a mistake and i hope Zos corrects this before class masteries hit live servers as it seems much easier to correct mistakes in pts.

I have the same question. This being the case, we can surely expect classes to keep their current class masteries more or less intact value wise, when even the already overpowered Dragonknight gets some of the best talents. A Casus Belli if you will.

Sorc is a class i really enjoy as well and im looking forward to playing Sorc as much as you specially with the new toys we are getting. But Sorc and DK are for sure a little overtuned at least when it comes to sustain at the moment. More than playing with an overpowered toy, i would like to enjoy a diverse meta. And in order to get a diverse meta we cant have some classes be overly ahead of the rest.

Aces-High-82

acanca wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Atm there is a big discrepancy between 2 classes with near infinite sustain, those being DK with core of flame skill and Sorcerer with Conservation of Energy passive and the rest of the classes sustain passives if they even get a sustain passive to speak of.

Warden- Nature’s Bounty: This passive upgrades rank 2 of Nature’s Gift to grant the healed target Major Heroism for 4.5 seconds and an additional 250 Magicka and Stamina.
This passive does not proc with overheals making it incredibly unreliable and while it has good value outside of its sustain, the passive is very weak for solo purposes. Passie would have to be able to proc off of overheals and have double value when it procs on yourself to be actually a consideration.

Templar- Devout Guardian: This passive causes you to gain a Damage Shield for 6 seconds, up to once every 6 seconds, while Sacred Ground is active. The shield absorbs up to 20% of your Max Health and grants 300 Health, Magicka, and Stamina Recovery while active. If the shield breaks, you gain 10 Ultimate
This is incredibly unreliable for solo and while the ultimate is appreciated, sustain would be appreciated even more. Please let us keep the sustain even when the shield breaks.

NB- No sustain passive to speak. Though it has access to siphoning strikes

Necromancer- No sustain passive

Arcanist - Erudite’s Rigor: This passive upgrades Fatewoven Armor to also grant 1 Ultimate and 300 Magicka and Stamina when you take damage, increasing by 100 Magicka and Stamina per Crux you have, up to once every 2 seconds.
Too unreliable and weak

I think we have a problem in general with passives not related to dealing damage being too weak to actually be worth giving up subclassing for. And it would be really appreciated if the sustain gap between dk, sorc and the rest of the classes be bridged either by buffing the rest or bringing dk and sorc more in line with the rest. Thank you

To clarify, Sorcs Conservation passive isn't quite the major sustain people might think, at least not in testing.

Yes, it's an absolute notable difference in sustain but it's definitely NOT infinite sustain.

In order to proc the passive with any consistency the player needs to be readily casting skills with a cost. Yes, the passive returns more resource than Wretched but it's not enough to offset the amount of resource consistently spent to maintain the proc.

Further, heavy attacks are a staple among Sorcs which won't proc the passive. Sure HA's return resources but it's not as if that's proc'ing the passive for a double stack.

In testing, conservation definitely aided in sustain but it wasn't anywhere near infinite nor did it allow me to cast without consideration for my sustain. Also, like @Dracane mentioned, in order to even access the passive Sorcs have to keep the Dark Magic skill line which is arguably one of the worst skill trees in the game.

I did overland content and bosses etc on my sorc, conversation of energy without any other sustain set was more than enough for me to not run out of sustain ever while testing. And thats on a build where if i take the passive off, i would run out of magicka in less than a minute. When properly built with around 40k max magicka or stamina pool, it is for all intents and purposes infinite sustain.

Of course it doesnt allow for the same level of funny business like core of flame, it wont allow you to keep a stage 10 streak going forever like how core of flame allows currently. Nor will it let you spam a 4-5k cost skill, you will run out while doing those sure. But it allows for basically infinite sustain while using a normal cost spammable and occasionally using higher cost skills and i feel it needs saying, it works by itself without having to use a gcd on it unlike core of flames.

Yes its not infinite sustain, but its way better than what any one else thats not dk gets, maybe even better than dk because you dont use a skill slots or gcd on it

You make it sound like it's an issue. Sounds great or not? It is not the same sustain as Core of Flame, but it is enough to sustain average spamming. That's fine and expected of a class mastery? Sounds balanced and in line with the potency of other class masteries.

Its better than the best sustain set in the game, probably the best 2 sustain sets put together.
None of the other sustain pure class masteries come even close to how good it is. For comparision, you restore at least 800 magicka and around 350 stamina per second per skill cast and it also activates with bashes and roll dodges you do (you are welcome for the tech). This is around an extra 1600 magicka sustain and 700 stamina sustain. Meanwhile for example templars get 300 magicka and stamina, and when their shield is broken, they lose even that. Do you think these 2 passives are even remotely on the same level? Either sorc and dk sustain has to be lowered or other classes sustain passives need to be brought up

If you already compare it to Templar you should put the sustain provided by Rune too.
To reach the values you mentioned you have to stack mag to 40k and 17.5k stam. Since stat stacking isnt the best scaling way to increase your damage that seems fine to me.

You can get to 40k max magicka and easily have 6k+ weapon damage currently on sorc with 0 max magicka set or a single weapon damage set.
Edit: This is using 0 max magicka set, 0 weapon damage set. Its not stacking anything, its not even stacking max magicka on enchants. It doesnt have any raid buffs or the like and all it has is self buffs like major brutality. 42k max magicka, 6.4k weapon damage. Can we please move past the narrative that this is somehow hard to get? Thank you

Well you took the mage mundus and the mage CP.
And now compare that to my subclass DK on live which has way better stats in every aspect except max mag paired with infinite sustain. Until all classes get their rework done the pureclass masteries have to compete with those powercreep builds.

Dracane

Magicka/Stamina sources are all together underpowered in value. Mage Mundus, Alfiq, Arcane trait, set traits, even Death Dealer's Fete compared to other offensive choice have too low values to compete with Spell Damage, crit and penetration. Even with the Sorc masteries, any magicka you add to your build is an active damage loss.

I have 1.32x magicka scaling and also the 1% spell damage per 1750 magicka, and still any individual max magicka source is vastly inferior compared to any of the aforemention stat instances. Not just offensively, also for your heals of course.

Vaqual

acanca wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

I think thats a wrong way to look at it. If this is a stop gap measure until reworks than why does dk get some of the best class masteries. We are now well past that narrative in my opinion. I would like them to give specially necro some more love. It was a big mistake to exclude players from Malevolent Promise passive and they gave Necro no sustain passive, this is in my opinion, a mistake and i hope Zos corrects this before class masteries hit live servers as it seems much easier to correct mistakes in pts.

I have the same question. This being the case, we can surely expect classes to keep their current class masteries more or less intact value wise, when even the already overpowered Dragonknight gets some of the best talents. A Casus Belli if you will.

Sorc is a class i really enjoy as well and im looking forward to playing Sorc as much as you specially with the new toys we are getting. But Sorc and DK are for sure a little overtuned at least when it comes to sustain at the moment. More than playing with an overpowered toy, i would like to enjoy a diverse meta. And in order to get a diverse meta we cant have some classes be overly ahead of the rest.

I appreciate and share your perspective on this. Sadly, too many here (including some influential content creators) are of the conviction that "buff = fun" is the only viable way to establish fair combat, no matter how dramatic the consequences are in specific content.