ruskiii wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

ruskiii wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

I get what you mean about MMR, but at the same time are we really seeing such an influx of new players that the disparity between “high experience” and “very low experience” among the population is that high?

Yes and no. Yes, there has been a huge influx of new and returning players due to the Oblivion remake and subclassing respectively, but that isn't what we are talking about here. The disparity was always there, just now you are being exposed to it constantly, rather than the people with the least experience being matched against each other for the most part. It's easy to underestimate how many people were populating that lowest level of MMR.

NxJoeyD wrote: »

As for the lack of counter play that has to do with the mixing of mechanics. Prior to SC, each class had aspects of risk versus reward in the nature of how their abilities were built. That’s not to say that any one class was meant for any particular role, but let’s take NB, for example. This class has always had hugh burst damage potential and crit enhancement enabling a lot of single target burst damage. The counter play to this was a degree of stealth detection paired with the fact that NB’s had less durability & utility; a NB (played properly) needed to try and avoid damage, this was the counter play. But now, NB’s can slot durability & utility like Crit Surge, Hardened Ward, Vibrant Shroud, or Sun Shield. Now these builds don’t have to have much of a care about avoiding damage, they can just take it because they’ve got an on demand source of strong mitigation & healing as well as some significant passives. This kills counter play because the by-design mechanics to combat NB have been filled in; and only the niche-est of builds can attempt to address that, and even then. It’s not as if, for example, a Warden is going to get as significant of a damage increase from slotting any other class skill line as what NB can achieve in durability so we have a disparity there.

I'm not sure who you are fighting over on Xbox, but I can say pretty confidently I'm yet to see an NB pick up Deadric Summoning thru subclassing. Not even sorcs are running hardened ward anymore. NB is far more likely to pick up Aedric Spear, Animal Companions, Storm Calling or Grave Lord. Across the board we've seen people running a lot of damage lines and all of these players, while pumping out a lot of damage themselves, are equally susceptible to getting hit hard.

Off the top of my head the only play style with little counter-play at the moment is pairing warden class charm with RoA, but even in that niche case, you have options: immovability pots, focusing the player, avoiding stacking until they expose themself etc etc.

Oh then I can tell you XB is significantly different from what you’re seeing on PCNA …. EVERYBODY is running HW over here! Storm calling has some pickup on this platform but it’s minor, the VAST majority of builds are slotting either Assassination or Aedric Spear.

Right now, on XBNA your NB & Templars have the least amount of counterplay. Their offense is incredibly strong and their exposure is now incredibly minimal. Those classes aren’t susceptible to getting hit hard because they’re able to change gear sets and slot benefits that give them mitigation they didn’t previously have access to IF they wanted to maintain their damage output; now, they can maintain the damage and have the mitigation.

Right now we’ve got some meta builds that are actively maintaining their offense while being blasted with 60k, 70k, 80k base points of damage … now if they’re actively attacking during that kind of damage allocation that means they aren’t blocking, they aren’t running, they literally are passively mitigating THAT much damage to the point that they aren’t concerned with the concept of combat mechanics, offense versus defense. That’s a major problem.

There have been conversations addressing the mitigation concerns with ESO before and what I’m seeing now, subclassing had made that far worse and that’s the larger contributor to what I’m seeing in BG match outcomes.

I’m still playing the game names I’ve seen for the last 2 years, sure there’s a few new ones here and there but you get used to seeing people and there’s a solid consistency here. The difference is in the outcomes, not who I’m seeing playing in matches.

This might be a good example of population spread difference between platforms. When it comes to testing or collecting data I like to use environments that have the most consistency across the board. IMO XB has more of that as the hardware & software swings are much less of a factor in results.

I still cant grasp people actually using daedric summoning on XB lol. Not just one guy either, but it actually being popular. Such a mid skill line and ward really not worth it since the nerf. I don't suppose you have any gameplay of these BGs? Would be generally curious to see whats going on.

Obviously we have some tanky dds and tanky healers and even straight up tanks on PC, but I wouldnt consider any of the current meta builds "uncounterable".

If you have some clips I'd love to see them

It’s really only for Ward, even without the heal it’s one of the strongest damage shields in PvP, hence why people are leaning on it. It’s not as as popular as the Aedric or Assassin lines but there’s a ton of people here running DS just for that shield. They can either shield stack or if they’d been running a 5 piece to previously get a shield that strong they now have access to Ward which they can keep a more consistent uptime and all for the low cost of one bar slot, rather than 5 pieces of gear and a lower proc rate. To a class base that wasn’t designed to have that easy of access to additional mitigation that’s a big deal.

Another crazy popular one here is Temps Toppling Charge. A lot of people liked to complain about Streak, but mechanically, TC deals as much damage and provides the same stun as Streak but with the added benefits of SIGNIFICANTLY better follow up potential and big minor buff. Two abilities similar on the surface but the difference in mechanics makes a big difference in damage output depending on whom has it. Put Streak on a NB and it’s mid, put TC on a NB and it’s a health chunk.

I’ve got Sorcs & Templars out here running Merciless Resolve that’s landing for 15k crits against high resistances and with Battle Spirit active; two classes, one with an already descent crit factor and another whom was already heavy attack crit focused; we’re seeing them slot an ability that yeilds a persistent passive buff and Ult level of damage from 28m away with no telegraph and no Ult cost barrier. When NB had this it was conceivable to block; but not when half the lobby has it. We’ll be in BG matches and all you hear are the “clicks” from Merci arrows flying all over the place. Now, our metas with the stupid high mitigation can take that; but sorry everybody else, you’re body meat.

The broader access to CC abilites combined with the fact that CC immunity isn’t global, it’s type specific, already reduces the counter play effectiveness of immo pots. We can’t keep citing the same old instruments as counter play solutions anymore. Yes, immo pots are a thing, yes they still work, but, we’d be remiss if we didn’t recognize just how much more CC types are being spammed in PvP due to greater access than before. So when we talk about counter play options there’s what’s on paper versus what works in genuine gameplay.

As for the mitigation increases, I will try and grab some clips, that won’t be hard to do. In some of them I’m going to intentionally make plays that might not be the most strategic but you’ll be able to see what I’m talking about mechanics-wise; specifically the mitigation vs damage output potential.

I have always maintained that in any form of PvP combat, a build should have to make choices in order to achieve higher tier outcomes: for example, if one wants to deal stupid high damage, fine, they can, but the resource allocation cost should make them unable to be as durable. That’s play & counter play. I’m afraid what I’m seeing is LESS of that than what we had before.

This will make even unskilled players look like superstars in BG’s. Yeah we saw this before in the people who wanted to run Rush of Agony & Vicious Death and pull you into the Pestilent Colossus (ugh the amount of times I’d seen that play over and over) .. but it was clear to us who was inexperienced leaning on cheese to cop kills. There was counter play to even that, I run Nibenay monster set and was able to counter play those bombers and even though the vast majority couldn’t rock Nibenay at least there was a counter play available.

But when you have players doling out crazy crits all while laughing off heavy bursts of damage, well, the viable counter plays start to disappear.

I’ll take some clips and post for the group.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Sluggy wrote: »

@MincMincMinc Well, we can argue about what the player counts and buisness directions are until the cows come home. Most of that will reveal itself over time either way. The main point you made and I 100% agree with is that this process is glacial. I'd be feeling nervous if I was conducting tests like this only once a month.

The timing is the other thing I dont get why people are complaining. So far we have had 2 tests about 12 weeks apart. They probably came up with a list of test ideas in order and adjust it after every test.

Even here is a basic timeline of the development. This is practically 10 weeks of work with an extra 2 weeks for filler.

1. Vengeance 1 test data collection, Combat team begins working on test 2
2. Engineering goes over data, internal meeting
3. Engineering meeting presentation
4. Top level meeting maybe changing combat team direction for the 3rd test depending on results
5. PTS starts
6. Combat team introduces vengeance changes on pts
7. PTS fixes
8. PTS fixes
9. Combat team preps for background testing
10. Vengeance Test 2

Ten weeks of 'work' because it sat on the PTS for six weeks, maybe. Unless they were migrating everything from their scripting tools to hardcoding directly in the engine (which actually would then make much more sense for the timeline) I don't see how anyone spends three months banging out a couple dozen skills. I'm willing to bet I could learn the scripting language and editing tools, familiarize myself with the API, and scratch it out inside of a week. Give management another two weeks to debate and suggest last minute changes. Still within a month.

LadyLethalla wrote: »

No, that is a wired connection. Note Melbourne is, if I recall correctly, 500km closer to Texas than Germany, which isn't a lot. Also, my ping isn't usually this high; I've been getting severe spikes since the last patch. Normally it's been around 300-320. Definitely doesn't seem to be affecting my internet in any other way - Ookla on the same PC gives 6 - 101 ping. So it's got to be something to do with my connection to the EU server.

Yeah, definitely a combination of factors, but a large part is due to Akamai Prolexic, a DDoS (Distributed Denial of Service) mitigation service (and Zos bad netcode? not totally convinced as I and many others have a low ping). My trace was routed through 2 Akamai Prolexic scrubbing centers (same location) and my ping went from 3ms to 35ms, that is a 12 fold difference. I do not notice it as I started with a low ping. But your data shows you start with a higher ping and it gets even higher through the Akamai Prolexic scrubbing centers, hence you are feeling it. There's not much you can do to bypass it. The high ping is a tradeoff for security. You can try using a VPN to find a better route to the destination (this sometimes helps, sometimes not). You can try contacting your service provider and report the latency; they may be able to adjust mitigation settings if not under attack. Your Ookla test on the same PC gives 6 - 101 ping, which is too much of a range and may indicate service instability; my ISP consistently shows a low ping. Hope you get this sorted out, good luck.

Thanks Maitsukas!

BagOfBadgers wrote: »

Applying that logic then, once you move to vet Dungeon/Trials/Arenas, and after that HM's you are tied to that difficulty? Um no.

So in your world if you grow as player you are not allowed to drop back and help guild'es or friends in standard difficulty?

Yeah, the changes ZOS made in “One Tamriel” shows the that playing with friends and others was desired.

I don't know how to say this politely. I have paid the same as you and I don't dictate how you enjoy the ESO. I want that protected so “average” (what ever that means?) are not affected!

I just want to enjoy ESO at my level also. It's just reasonable to be able to toggle, at will, and for me the difficulty I choose would depend how much use I have of my hands at the time, One day it's both and I can parse around a 100k and others when it a may be only Thumb(s) and finger(s) on both hands, so HA'ing and movement only gets me 60K. Take of 25%'ish for actual content ,so 75k & 45K. Just to add I have to play on a modded gamepad and use other aids.

Again, I want to enjoy ESO at my level and others to enjoy whatever they want. I don't want to be punished for being me, if that makes sense?

Edit for me being me.

The logic is not applicable to normal mode dungeons, trials, or arenas. That is not even the issue.

I have paid the same as 'you' but 'you' are dictating how I enjoy the game.
The 'you' that runs by and 1-hit the foe I am working to kill dictates my enjoyment.
The 'you' that tell me to 'get gud' before I attempt to play a group dungeon is dictating my enjoyment.
The 'you' that herds every mob in a public dungeon without stopping to kill is dictating how I enjoy the game.
The 'you' that over farms the overland resources are dictating how I enjoy the game.
The 'you' that stands AFK at a delve/dungeon boss with their companion, allowing the companion to kill the boss each time it spawns and collect via auto loot, is dictating how I enjoy the game.

I have heard so many times players say 'that is not happening' or 'I have never had that problem.' It IS happening. It IS a problem. Especially for the players that are trying to quest to play the story rather than farm (whether it be xp, gold, or leads.)

How would you safeguard the beginner players and lower level players that are questing from the bad or disruptive behavior of those who would take advantage of the ease of the normal overland? Would you even care?

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

Just get rid of RoA and Dark Convergence and call it good. Asking for ZOS to dig deep and solve the desync issues from all sources is a far less likely outcome given how things have gone in the past with ZOS.

Free pull sets have no place in PvP environments.

lol the alt account to call it a free pull set again is hilarious, but let's try this again, how is a 5 piece set a "free" pull? One requires you to aim it with a 25 second cooldown and use an AoE skill, the other has n 8 second cooldown and requires you to be in melee range. They are also both delayed.

Also no, we wouldn't remove the sets with cooldowns on them that have a higher opportunity cost and call it a day when the skill that desyncs more often than any other skill or set is jav and it can be used every single second.

The common term used for RoA and Dark Convergence is "free pull sets". That is the accepted terminology....by everyone but you for some reason.

Flawless sound logical argument. Thanks again for the great input. An ability requiring a 5 piece set, plus one requires you to aim it with a 25 second cooldown and use an AoE skill, the other has n 8 second cooldown and requires you to be in melee range. They are also both delayed. Dk chains and jav are free pull abilities. No set restriction. No cooldown. No delay. Lock onto target for free! Thank you for your contribution to the post and bumping the thread!

Its just the age old proc set problem where a single gear choice vastly outpaces other gear choices.

For instance a proc stat set has all the same conditions and hooplah as a proc effect set. However it has the extra condition where you need to actually use those stats down the line to be effective.

Where in turn the proc effect set alone goes off with that first condition and is effective. == People always saying how much easier they are to use. Anytime you have a game where people are weaving and comboing to get kills with a ton of effort of course people are going to view these proc playstyles as gimmicks. The "playstyle" is to do nothing and wait until you can proc everything.

---

Ok now go and compare the outputs. Even if you slap on one of the top stat proc sets like Essence thief you are only talking a 5-10% output increase of the build in a given burst window of maybe two skills and an ultimate. Where if you have a proc set like RoA or DC it is basically on par with an ultimate, effectively making your combo now two skills and two ultimates. Which is essentially a 30%+ increase in power.

You can add some arbitrary metric all you want. How you equate RoA ot Dark con to two skills AND two ultimates doesn't even make sense. They are both delayed, but not only delayed how an ultimate like sweep is, with a .25 second cast time. They have almost an entire second delay AND a visual indicator, making it extremely easy to play against unless the server has too much load and doesn't show the AoE for dark con. How does a pull set with a gap close become 2 skill and 2 ultimates at the same time? That doesn't even add up with what you wrote, never mind what say in response to it. If you added an entire second delay with a visual indicator to every PvP burst ultimate in the game that dealt it's damage in a 2 second window, I would be elated if that's all the enemy could use on me, the people I play with would never die unless heavily outnumbered because it is extremely telegraphed and easy to play against.

Additionally, using an arbitrary metric of 30% increase in power which you don't even know how you arrived at makes no sense. Why not use something like rallying cry? Rallying cry on a single person reduces crit damage taken by 25% and also increases your weapon and spell damage by 300 which increases both healing and damage done. This set is overloaded but there is not even a fraction of the disdain for it. Why? Because sets like RoA require you to block and people want to be able to just roll out of every instance of damage with little thought behind it. You can just continuously sprint now and RoA wouldn't even pull you. I understand the hate for the set if you lack the ability to adapt and hold block in instances of damage, but if you took RoA away you would die to a large group using something else just as easily, people will always complain.

Regardless, RoA does not create ANYWHERE NEAR as much desync as templar jav does. The topic of this conversation is about desync not your disdain with sets, for whatever reason everyone on the forums tries to hijack and change the topic of conversation to "x set is too strong" This discussion is about desyncing, RoA does not desync nearly as much as templar jav which has groups of people using it for the sole purpose of desyncing players. Nobody ever uses RoA or dark con to desync people.

WENT OUT TO EAT AND STILL THE SAME LMAO IS THIS PART OF THE NEW UPDATES ? 3 V 4 DEATH MATCH ? CALLING THE WINNERS "SKILLED" ? LMAO





Update, we won lmao it still sucked tho , wont be playing for a while. Cool updates, you love to see players getting infuriated, must be part of the road map



i feel like im playing an experiment, there's no point in this