MincMincMinc wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

fizzybeef wrote: »

So the time has shown now, nobody wants to play Vengeance anymore, as soon GH is back up.
@ZOS can you finally stomp that project now?

As much as I'd like them to allocate more resources to actually fixing the problems in GH, I think keeping it up will only show them that they are out of touch with what the community wants when it continues to get smaller and smaller. Along with the fact that some people actually do enjoy it, albeit a lot less, but allowing the small portion of them to play it is fine. They just need to, for once, dial in on cyro PvP and minimizing the issues it has. It's one of the main reasons people are still around, even with how bad it can get during volendrung spawns.

The issue with live GH cyrodil is the game itself. To fix it involves cutting out half the sets in the game, cutting down on proc effects like poisons, status effects, passives. Then gutting skills so they dont have multiple paragraph parts to them. Major rule changes would have to be reverted like how over time effects used to not stack. Tons of other game design needs to change like how everyone moves 2x the old run speed and mount speed letting players not get ganked. Groups easily converge without being split up by gankers and side objectives artificially spreading the population out.

Its quite literally making a new game from scratch at this point. Which is where many hoped vengeance would lead to, but no plan from zos has been released or discussed to this extent.

I don't necessarily agree. The procs can obviously cause issue with performance, but a lot of the issue is redundancies and IMO the biggest issue has been and always will be memory leak. When the latest midyear/whitestrakes happened, the servers slowly went under heavier and heavier load and the game was really bad in cyro. When midyear was over and the double AP and reward boxes were no longer there, the additional campaigns stayed up and there was no maintenance because they continued to keep them open until the end of the month. Even when population wasn't high and there weren't giant groups going around the game was AWFUL just because of the fact that the servers hadn't gone under maintenance. How you even manage to get memory leak that bad is beyond me, but that's the biggest issue. In addition, the game comes under huge load when volendrung comes out every time. If you are in cyro and there are 50 people on each alliance, but those fights are all spread out, load on the server is okay, but when you bring everyone together, even if the numbers are the same or less, the strain becomes much worse. I like volendrung but it should be removed IMO just because of how bad the performance becomes. Vengeance was made to give a new experience to PvP but the main reason was to address performance issues and allow more people to play, so the main issue isn't balance but performance that should be addressed, and fixing the issue of memory leak which has existed for such a long period of time, just that issue alone would make performance day and night.

I would agree volundrung needs to be removed, been saying it since day one. The game already couldnt handle large groups back then.

You are just assuming there is a memory leak issue though with only anecdotal evidence. I have not see signs of memory leak issues for the server. If this was present zos would have changed all campaigns to be week long campaigns instead of 30 day.

Vengeance is supposed to be a test bed baseline to measure how much any future change contributes (if they give up on changes veng will just stay as it is for new players to learn in, its atleast better than the 0 pop under 50 campaign to learn in).

IMO engineering wise I think they may be better off just jumping ahead to introducing core systems you KNOW will have to be in a final game for players to be happy. Like item sets, passives, gear, potions, attributes, mundus. Even if there was only a handful of sets to put together. They should really have this datapoint as a barebones core game state. If veng was closer to alpha this would be more like a beta. Then after beta you could start introducing more complex skill or proc effects. Starting off with the last passive or skill in a tree or maybe only ultimates.

The memory leak isn't at all an assumption when it happens constantly. Players who have played the game long enough know to reset their game, to alt f4 and completely relaunch their game after a minute when they are put offline to reset it. Certain addons have made it worse but even disabling everything doesn't fix the problem. The midyear month long server performance got progressively worse, even after the event was over and population in cyro went down because it wasn't reset. The issue is obvious and needs to be fixed.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

fizzybeef wrote: »

So the time has shown now, nobody wants to play Vengeance anymore, as soon GH is back up.
@ZOS can you finally stomp that project now?

As much as I'd like them to allocate more resources to actually fixing the problems in GH, I think keeping it up will only show them that they are out of touch with what the community wants when it continues to get smaller and smaller. Along with the fact that some people actually do enjoy it, albeit a lot less, but allowing the small portion of them to play it is fine. They just need to, for once, dial in on cyro PvP and minimizing the issues it has. It's one of the main reasons people are still around, even with how bad it can get during volendrung spawns.

The issue with live GH cyrodil is the game itself. To fix it involves cutting out half the sets in the game, cutting down on proc effects like poisons, status effects, passives. Then gutting skills so they dont have multiple paragraph parts to them. Major rule changes would have to be reverted like how over time effects used to not stack. Tons of other game design needs to change like how everyone moves 2x the old run speed and mount speed letting players not get ganked. Groups easily converge without being split up by gankers and side objectives artificially spreading the population out.

Its quite literally making a new game from scratch at this point. Which is where many hoped vengeance would lead to, but no plan from zos has been released or discussed to this extent.

I don't necessarily agree. The procs can obviously cause issue with performance, but a lot of the issue is redundancies and IMO the biggest issue has been and always will be memory leak. When the latest midyear/whitestrakes happened, the servers slowly went under heavier and heavier load and the game was really bad in cyro. When midyear was over and the double AP and reward boxes were no longer there, the additional campaigns stayed up and there was no maintenance because they continued to keep them open until the end of the month. Even when population wasn't high and there weren't giant groups going around the game was AWFUL just because of the fact that the servers hadn't gone under maintenance. How you even manage to get memory leak that bad is beyond me, but that's the biggest issue. In addition, the game comes under huge load when volendrung comes out every time. If you are in cyro and there are 50 people on each alliance, but those fights are all spread out, load on the server is okay, but when you bring everyone together, even if the numbers are the same or less, the strain becomes much worse. I like volendrung but it should be removed IMO just because of how bad the performance becomes. Vengeance was made to give a new experience to PvP but the main reason was to address performance issues and allow more people to play, so the main issue isn't balance but performance that should be addressed, and fixing the issue of memory leak which has existed for such a long period of time, just that issue alone would make performance day and night.

fizzybeef wrote: »

So the time has shown now, nobody wants to play Vengeance anymore, as soon GH is back up.
@ZOS can you finally stomp that project now?

As much as I'd like them to allocate more resources to actually fixing the problems in GH, I think keeping it up will only show them that they are out of touch with what the community wants when it continues to get smaller and smaller. Along with the fact that some people actually do enjoy it, albeit a lot less, but allowing the small portion of them to play it is fine. They just need to, for once, dial in on cyro PvP and minimizing the issues it has. It's one of the main reasons people are still around, even with how bad it can get during volendrung spawns.

ceruulean wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

This is available on multiple Twitch channels. There are a lot of ballgroup players that stream. Novellli leads the best group in the game and will sometimes stream but there isn't commentary. Citats also streams with his AD group as well as xzyleighx. Why does having CMX matter? I checked the stuff you publicly posted and it's evident you don't play at the highest level, but needing CMX for a GvG is something only someone who has zero knowledge of it would ask for, everyone uses the actual logs in the game that give way more information.

You can watch any of like 10 streamers on Twitch who stream ballgroup gameplay and they all kill other groups equal to theirs in size, as does any ballgroup aside from the 20+ plus ones that are just zergs.

Also the video you linked is taken place in IC underground in a bugged spot, this doesn't back your point at all, these players are cyro players they just went to IC because it has no population to do the tournament lol

I don't see much worth watching. Here's a 12v12 from 2 years ago from one of the names you dropped and it's 16 minutes long which proves that there used to be metas with 10+ min duels:

It's pretty telling that you're telling me to go find examples and I really can't find anything recent post-sibclassing that looks exciting. Mostly zerg baiting and fighting inexperienced players.

Anyway, ZoS shouldn't cater to the highest level of hardcore player. This reddit post links a study that the Call of Duty developers did: https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/s/y4RxOPrt3V

In short, when devs disabled skill-based matchmaking like their vocal hardcore crowd called for, casual players reported more frustration and quitting. Then even the top percentile drains out. As the lower skilled players quit, the pool consists of only high skill players, however within that group their relative percentiles drop. So if you were a top 10th player, but the bottom rung all quit, you slide down to 50th best, as an example. Then even these people quit as the population shrinks. So the study proves that matching people of similar skill is important for sustained gameplay.

Sure, Greyhost can be where the high skilled players compete with each other. The hardcore crowd is perfectly happy to stay within that bracket for the rest of the games life. Just don't be surprised when it collapses because there's no room for lower skilled players anymore.

Any serious PvE uses logs/CMX for metrics. Idk what you think serious high level PvP play is supposed to look like without those, and without commentary to explain decisions.

Again, this is all just further proof you don't know anything about the PvP scene in ESO. Tyr has been on the game for a long time and any ballgroup player who has PvPed for more than 2 years will know who they are, I don't know why you are trying to call people inexperienced when the only inexperienced PvPer in the scenario is you, from what you literally have posted yourself on video.

You lack any understanding as well when it comes to GvGs, you can see the members die multiple times and groups will allow the other group to res their members so the fight can continue. You change your stance from "nobody dies for 10 minutes" to this without realize how wrong you are. I thought nobody died, did you not watch the video you linked? There are plenty of deaths, just because they are following the common GvG tradition of letting the other group res doesn't mean no deaths happen just because there isn't a full wipe, that's a different argument entirely, do you want to change that to your argument now? Additionally, you linked a highlighted video from Twitch, Twitch doesn't save broadcasts unless they are highlighted, old ones are automatically deleted and there is a storage limit. The person who's Twitch you linked has multiple VODs on their YouTube from subclassing patches and the other streamers I mentioned have them as well.

In addition, you still lack any understanding when you mention CMX as a metric for end game PvP or BGs. It was used commonly in duels as a means to understand what you are taking a lot of damage from, what your highest source of damage was, what you need to change, but it is never used In GvGs or any type of ballgroup playstyle unless the players are just vastly inexperienced. The guild you are part of for BGs, which I can see from the videos you have posted, got 37-0ed in a BG by the group you posted in this thread in a 4v4. I understand you think you know where higher skill players are, and that's great for lower skill players to attempt venturing into higher skill PvP, and this can exist in BGs for sure, but randomly queing into a BG usually puts you against people that aren't any good because the MM isn't great. Cyro often has ballgroups that are attempting to fight out numbered and when GvGs commonly happen and people die ALL THE TIME it's common courtesy to let the group res when they lose their puller or a certain amount of people so the fight can continue.

I don't know whether I should be impressed or dismayed over the amount of cost and effort put forward to even accomplish that.

That's some dedicated trolling right there.

Subclassing should be rolled back entirely

As long as they are more subtle and aren't yet another exploding and super bright recall that is an affront to my and others eyeballs.

As long as they are not explodey.

The number of bots on PSNA has been dramatically reduced. The last few times I farmed Craglorn I couldn't help but notice the distinct lack of them. I remember commenting about it with guildmates who'd made similar observations.

Admittedly that was a couple of months back though. In the past bot zapping usually seemed to happen in waves, with bots repopulating within a couple days (if not hours). So I dunno if the more aggressive updated countermeasures are still making as big an impact.