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A medium term solution to the subclassing issue: nerf until it's below the level of pure classes.
moderatelyfatman
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As far as I can tell, the community is divided enough that there will never be consensus on rolling back subclassing. So how do we resolve this issue?
I think most of the players who love subclassing do so for the role-playing aspects. They love being one step closer to the classless system that was present in all the elderscrolls games.
I think that most of these players are not interested in advanced PvE and PvP but tend to take their subclassed characters into solo situations.
Most of the people who are against subclassing tend to be either advanced PvErs (progs and endgame) who are sick of the beam meta or PvPers. I don't think the majority of these players are going to be around in 3 years when ZOS 'finishes' their pureclass balancing even if such a thing were possible.
Why not impose a significant penalty for subclassing skill lines so they perform worse than pure classes? Most of the subclassing players are not going to be significantly affected if they are not doing advanced PvE or PvP. They'll still get to enjoy their overland content and most of the regular content.
However, for everyone else things will be much better. In PvE beam will still be king but highly skilled pureclass DKs will be able to give the arcanists a run for their money. Execute Templars will also be back and so will MA stamsorcs.
In PvP the meta will revert back to Nightblade, DK, Warden and possibly Magsorc. While this is not perfect, having four metas is still far superior than the Frankensteinian pile of organic waste that rules Cyrodiil right now.
What do you think?
I think most of the players who love subclassing do so for the role-playing aspects. They love being one step closer to the classless system that was present in all the elderscrolls games.
I think that most of these players are not interested in advanced PvE and PvP but tend to take their subclassed characters into solo situations.
Most of the people who are against subclassing tend to be either advanced PvErs (progs and endgame) who are sick of the beam meta or PvPers. I don't think the majority of these players are going to be around in 3 years when ZOS 'finishes' their pureclass balancing even if such a thing were possible.
Why not impose a significant penalty for subclassing skill lines so they perform worse than pure classes? Most of the subclassing players are not going to be significantly affected if they are not doing advanced PvE or PvP. They'll still get to enjoy their overland content and most of the regular content.
However, for everyone else things will be much better. In PvE beam will still be king but highly skilled pureclass DKs will be able to give the arcanists a run for their money. Execute Templars will also be back and so will MA stamsorcs.
In PvP the meta will revert back to Nightblade, DK, Warden and possibly Magsorc. While this is not perfect, having four metas is still far superior than the Frankensteinian pile of organic waste that rules Cyrodiil right now.
What do you think?
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Radiate77✭✭✭✭✭
✭Stop assuming which groups do or do not prefer Subclassing.
This will never happen, and it shouldn’t. Subclassing was the best thing to happen to ESO, next to Scribing.
It is getting really exhausting watching the same 2-3 posters repeatedly make threads attempting to sabotage a system that I, among others, love.30 -
Lord_Hev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭There was another idea floating around that was kind of an inverse of this. Just make a scaling % modifier buff for each native class-line you keep. So, something like 30% if all native class-lines are present, 15% if one line is subclassed out, and 0% if two lines. This accomplishes a similar goal but in a way that doesn't outright penalizes subclassing, direct nerfs are a bitter pill to swallow and all that.6 -
Renato90085✭✭✭✭✭Subclasses do need some drawbacks, but unfortunately the dev haven't played their own game and they mind double skill points and 1.5k gold is drawback
So it actually has no drawbacks.
also,zos now doing this,maybe we can in next month see some skill swap skill line to nerf perf sbulclass buildEdited by Renato90085 on December 15, 2025 9:17AM4 -
GeneralGrundmann✭✭✭I quote myself from another thread:
"Even easier approach:
-Only one skill line from a single class: no passives for this skill line
-Two skill lines from a single class: only first level of passives for both skill lines
-Three skill lines from a single class: all levels of passives for all three skill lines"2 -
M0ntie✭✭✭✭✭I don't agree with OP. Where is your evidence for your opinions when you're attempting to represent groups of players? "Just trust me bro"?
I find sub-classing fun.
What hacks me off is ZoS keeping on changing completely what is meta for end game, requiring a complete redo of your loadouts for end game trials. Zos should properly design how they want the game to play for end game, properly test it, and then STOP CHANGING the meta for at least a year. Regrinding stuff to achieve the same content is boring boring boring.
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Wereswan✭✭✭✭The problem with all of these sorts of ideas is that only some of the many many possible subclass builds are game-breakers: any nerf big enough to tame the most egregious offenders will make the rest completely helpless.
It's why the rework/refresh/whatever is the only realistic way forward.10 -
moderatelyfatman✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The problem with all of these sorts of ideas is that only some of the many many possible subclass builds are game-breakers: any nerf big enough to tame the most egregious offenders will make the rest completely helpless.
It's why the rework/refresh/whatever is the only realistic way forward.
True, but the full rework will take years so what I propose is a placeholder.1 -
Last'One✭✭✭✭Stop assuming which groups do or do not prefer Subclassing.
This will never happen, and it shouldn’t. Subclassing was the best thing to happen to ESO, next to Scribing.
It is getting really exhausting watching the same 2-3 posters repeatedly make threads attempting to sabotage a system that I, among others, love.
This isn’t about what you or I personally love or hate. It’s about game balance.
Subclassing has severely damaged class balance. Balance was already shaky before subclassing, and after it was introduced, the problem became much worse. When one system allows a few optimal combinations to outperform everything else, the result is obvious: players gravitate to those setups, and many classes lose their purpose.
ESO should strive to balance DPS and utility across all classes, not funnel everyone into the same handful of “best” builds. Don’t you think it’s healthier for the game if every class has a clear identity, a unique playstyle, and a reason to be invited to groups?
Or would you really prefer a game where 5 or 6 classes are effectively sidelined because everyone is expected to run the same subclass combinations?
Subclassing may be fun, but if it comes at the cost of class identity and meaningful balance, then it’s a problem that deserves criticism, not blind defense.Elder Scrolls Online? A delightful blend of tragedy and comedy. Hilarious! Terrifying!
As Sheogorath, say: "If it makes you laugh and cry at the same time… PERFECT! Do it again!"5 -
Sarannah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Stop asking for nerfs please, nerfs chase more players away from the game than anything else!
Personally I do not care about balance at all, fun is what is most important. Fun fun fun! To spread the meta out, ZOS could rework one damage skill for each class to be more like fatecarver. That will all of a sudden make one of every class's damage skills meta.
Instead of nerfing, ask for pure class buffs instead, maybe a +10% damage/10% damage reduction/+10% increased resources per base class skillline. Or maybe a special class ultimate which can only be used when using the three base class skilllines. Or maybe a class transformation that can only be used when using the base three class skilllines. So many options! Asking for nerfs is so unimaginative.
PS: Not caring about balance does not mean I don't want bugged/broken skills fixed, but none of that is the case here.
PPS: If subclassing is nerfed too harshly I too will be gone from the game! As that will only make the game feel worse, which is what every nerf does and what every nerf so far has done.9 -
bmnoble✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Make separate leader boards for pure and sub classed builds, that way the score chasers can have their sub classed runs and their pure class runs and earn two sets of leader board rewards if they feel like it and have the time.
As for PVP give an AP bonus and Tel Var bonus for using a pure class on weekends.0 -
Eliahnus✭✭✭✭Why would one subclass if it makes you less stronger???
So much hate for subclassing, OP, not healthy.7 -
sleepy_worm✭✭✭✭✭moderatelyfatman wrote: »I think most of the players who love subclassing do so for the role-playing aspects. They love being one step closer to the classless system that was present in all the elderscrolls games.
I think that most of these players are not interested in advanced PvE and PvP but tend to take their subclassed characters into solo situations.
Most of the people who are against subclassing tend to be either advanced PvErs (progs and endgame) who are sick of the beam meta or PvPers. I don't think the majority of these players are going to be around in 3 years when ZOS 'finishes' their pureclass balancing even if such a thing were possible.
These assumptions are wildly out of touch with reality.Edited by sleepy_worm on December 15, 2025 2:30PM7 -
Thormar✭✭✭✭So... is there a medium term solution, is there no solution, a long term solution. What is there really?
Well, for anyone who wants to know what is actually instore for Subclassing, then a good place to get that is...
hearing it straight from the devs.
This twitch video was aired 11 days ago. (It was posted on another thread here on General Discussion)
In it both the Combat & PVP Director as well as Senior Combat Designer state in no uncertain terms what their design goals are and road map is wrt Subclassing.
From the video it's clear the devs are committed to a path, which is great for those on one side of the Subclassing divide, not so for those on the other.
If you don't want to watch from the beginning a good place to start is the 13:40 mark:
Edited by Thormar on December 15, 2025 3:01PM0 -
Gabriel_H✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭There was another idea floating around that was kind of an inverse of this. Just make a scaling % modifier buff for each native class-line you keep. So, something like 30% if all native class-lines are present, 15% if one line is subclassed out, and 0% if two lines. This accomplishes a similar goal but in a way that doesn't outright penalizes subclassing, direct nerfs are a bitter pill to swallow and all that.
That won't address the problem. The only problem with sub-classing is at end-game where the number of viable builds drop to ~1 per role.
All a general buff would do is make whichever class comes out best for damage will then be that new ~1 build per role. The only workable solution is the one ZOS are proposing, which is to rework all the classes and hopefully (that word doing a lot of heavy lifting) the classes will end up in a state where the differential between the top 10+ builds across all classes is so miniscule it breaks the min/maxing.
And not for nothing, but ZOS's solution also addresses a problem that many around here seem to forget - damage is not the only role, and not the only role affected by sub-classing.PC EU
Never get involved in a land war in Asia - it's one of the classic blunders!1 -
Ezhh✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yea, many PvEers are sick of the beam, but removing subclassing doesn't fix that at all. What it would do is remove the only build I can compete with beam on and... probably force me to play beam.
To be clear, I don't really like subclassing at all and I feel it was not a good choice, but it's here now and heavily nerfing it isn't the play. The play is bringing things in line with it. The ideal is having multiple options within a small range of power so people have actual choices and don't feel forced into any one build just to clear content.1 -
wolfie1.0.✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭moderatelyfatman wrote: »As far as I can tell, the community is divided enough that there will never be consensus on rolling back subclassing. So how do we resolve this issue?
I think most of the players who love subclassing do so for the role-playing aspects. They love being one step closer to the classless system that was present in all the elderscrolls games.
I think that most of these players are not interested in advanced PvE and PvP but tend to take their subclassed characters into solo situations.
Most of the people who are against subclassing tend to be either advanced PvErs (progs and endgame) who are sick of the beam meta or PvPers. I don't think the majority of these players are going to be around in 3 years when ZOS 'finishes' their pureclass balancing even if such a thing were possible.
Why not impose a significant penalty for subclassing skill lines so they perform worse than pure classes? Most of the subclassing players are not going to be significantly affected if they are not doing advanced PvE or PvP. They'll still get to enjoy their overland content and most of the regular content.
However, for everyone else things will be much better. In PvE beam will still be king but highly skilled pureclass DKs will be able to give the arcanists a run for their money. Execute Templars will also be back and so will MA stamsorcs.
In PvP the meta will revert back to Nightblade, DK, Warden and possibly Magsorc. While this is not perfect, having four metas is still far superior than the Frankensteinian pile of organic waste that rules Cyrodiil right now.
What do you think?
I am tired enough of nerfs.
Just make some OP gear sets that require you to have all 3 base class skills that really compensate.
Lets buff instead of nerf.4 -
AllenaNightWood✭✭✭✭no more nerfing its exhausting it should be just as viable and pure class builds1 -
Hapexamendios✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Sorry, this just doesn't make any sense. The goal should be to maintain a balance not nerf something until it's not favorable to use.4 -
SneaK✭✭✭✭✭
✭Give pure classes an extra armor slot, thanks."IMO"Aldmeri Dominion1 Nightblade - 1 Templar - 7 Hybrid Mutt Abominations1 -
alpha_synuclein✭✭✭✭✭sleepy_worm wrote: »moderatelyfatman wrote: »I think most of the players who love subclassing do so for the role-playing aspects. They love being one step closer to the classless system that was present in all the elderscrolls games.
I think that most of these players are not interested in advanced PvE and PvP but tend to take their subclassed characters into solo situations.
Most of the people who are against subclassing tend to be either advanced PvErs (progs and endgame) who are sick of the beam meta or PvPers. I don't think the majority of these players are going to be around in 3 years when ZOS 'finishes' their pureclass balancing even if such a thing were possible.
These assumptions are wildly out of touch with reality.
Why do you think they are? I am observing pretty much the same things this op is stating.Yea, many PvEers are sick of the beam, but removing subclassing doesn't fix that at all. What it would do is remove the only build I can compete with beam on and... probably force me to play beam.
To be clear, I don't really like subclassing at all and I feel it was not a good choice, but it's here now and heavily nerfing it isn't the play. The play is bringing things in line with it. The ideal is having multiple options within a small range of power so people have actual choices and don't feel forced into any one build just to clear content.
This. What we really need done first is adressing arcanist, especially fatecarver.0 -
MidniteOwl1913✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I'm just so sick of the mean green beam machine!
It's nice to have invisiablity available to my DK, but in all honesty I could do without subclassing.
PS5/NA0 -
MidniteOwl1913✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Hapexamendios wrote: »Sorry, this just doesn't make any sense. The goal should be to maintain a balance not nerf something until it's not favorable to use.
Yeah, on this I agree. But experience suggests that while balance is often desired it is rarely achieved...
PS5/NA0
