We need a dungeon tutorial and minimum requirements for roles

tincanman · December 10

I expect fake tanks/healers only show up in random vet pugs because they were conditioned to fake roles from normal pug runs.

tincanman · December 10

I'd be fundamentally opposed to role-enforcement - not everyone uses the random tool solo and such restrictions would severely and negatively impact on pre-formed groups who are only usually interested in the tool for random dungeon selection and, occasionally, to back-fill a position. Pre-filled groups will often have what might be considered by others to be 'fake' roles with competent players capable of adapting as circumstances require; these kind of players would also be negatively impacted if/when they chose to solo-queue by any kind of role-enforcement.

No objection to separate tutorials, although, to be fair guilds are often the first stop for learning and teaching pretty much most aspects of the game, including dungeon mechanics, optimal builds etc. Despite a lot of long-term 'advanced' players quitting or playing less there's still a superior body of dynamic knowledge available via this route than any static tutorial could ever provide.

Soarora · December 10

The thing that gets me about fake roles are the ones I see in the wild are usually bad. Good players fake roles for transmute and I’m not opposed to dps-with-taunt in normals… but people doing fake tank or fake healer should know how to real tank and real heal IMO. You can’t just go in expecting it to be the same as DPSing.

Daoin · December 11

Fake roles ? dead subject..dead game..question answered about fake roles..player count for steam limps over 10k at peak for an hour or two most days and miraculously stays above 5k player count all other times, and whats worse is if a person logs in its lucky to prove there are 50 to 100 people online at same time, if we put in long hours we may cross paths with 20 different people overland and all the same 20 people in random dungeons and trials in a weeks time
before i could not face logging in anymore the dungeons seemed to be getting better but i can only guess forum and the die hards amped up the fake roles in games again for some reason likely got lost in life without the attention in game when they seen new subclassers playing thier roles and winning
nobody thats been around years needs transmute stones and thruth is they cant scrape 4 people togther to make a pre made and take it out on random players, but still the diversion will be 'i can solo vet hm' then go do that
all the talk and excuses in forums and ingmame are just deflections, because for countless years its always the same old players talking the same outdated nonesense, nobody else would likely bother with the forum actually if thier characters were not effected with all the rubbish that goes on here
and back to transmutes...destroying them after every activity is more of a pest than getting them, all i see in game and forum is lots of desperation tactics, but hell knows i guess you need them now more than ever
just looked and with steam, 500 less players this month and the average will sink into the 7k daily average number man, fact is when more that 2 times the people find more fun playing slay the spire daily than an mmo things need looking at deeper than ever before

Necrotech_Master · December 11

Ardriel wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

how about stop pressuring people into joining your playstyle, especially new players ? in the end you need them more than they need you anyway, so who cares if your run never made it, can happen to the best of us unless your a one %er, then when it does all you do is complain like you were meant for special things and its everyone elses fault such a small thing and some kind of crime in eso, is just a game and sometimes expecting the 'game over' is what can make it more fun

this, really

not all teams NEED say 1 tank, 1 healer, 2 dps

some experienced groups run with 1 tank and 3 dps just fine even on most dlc dungeons outside of hard modes

heck i typically test myself soloing some non dlc vet HM dungeons on a dps with a tank companion just because i can lol

It's great if you're such a good player that you can do vet hm solo, but that's definitely not the case for the average ESO player. The standard should be a conventional group with all roles, not 3 dd or 4 dd runs. At least for vet dungeons.

Of course, there are players who don't need a healer for vet DLC either. But that's not the case for the average player. It's not fair to expect average players to form their own group and avoid random vet dungeons.
These players should not be pressured into a particular style of play (speed, no healer, no tank) not the other way around.

I know new players who turned their backs on ESO because, among other things, they've had very frustrating experiences in the Dungeon Finder.
At the beginning, they can't keep up with the others yet (gear, experience, skill points for subclassing).
However, the way the game is currently played in the Dungeon Finder, teaches them how to do it when you're really good, not how you should actually do it with a proper group.
So it's no surprise that they don't learn the basics and mechanics.
Once they're in the vet DLC and wiped a few times because they have no idea about the mechanics, they often get kicked and don't even know why. That's frustrating.

i personally dont usually use the dungeon queues to avoid stuff like toxic players (i count speedrunners as toxic players for example)

the real problem is not the dungeon finder itself, its the players in the finder as its just lumping 4 potentially disparate playstyles/experience levels together

for example:

no vet/experienced players like playing support roles (tank or heals) as an actual full tank or healer because of cases where they have been paired with inexperienced dps (person will complain the dungeon they have done 100s of times takes forever)
no inexperienced player gets a good dungeon experience when they are being carried (person learns nothing about how to play their character or the dungeon in general)
people who enjoy the dungeon story and inexperienced players also dont get a good experience being matched with say the 1 person who wants to clear the whole dungeon in 5 minutes and skip all of the mobs (not knowing what is going on, or cant follow the story, or quest bugs from people speeding all lead to a sour experience)

so in the end, the problem with the dungeon finder is not that its functionally broken, its because its just smooshing 4 players together who have different goals/experience levels together and the players themselves for not having patience

i find speedrunners in the random dungeons to be incredibly selfish, as i believe dungeons should not be sped run in the queue, should at least have to kill the mobs and all bosses, if your going to speed run, either pre-form a group or solo it

because of that, instituting stricter role requirements, or trying to add checkboxes to bypass role requirements will end up having unintended consequences of nobody wanting to use the queue when you can just preform a group and manually port into the dungeon to bypass all the nonsense

the suggestion about adding a checkbox to ignore role requirements for example, thats going to lead to a situation where EVERYONE will end up running with that, and then there will be complaints in here about someone ending up in a group of 4 tanks, or 4 healers, or 4 dps and having issues with the dungeon because they might not be prepared for that (i know its statistically unlikely to have say 4 tanks or healers get matched, but with the scale of the games population, its also statistically likely to happen)

the problem with adding additional checks for role requirements is that there is no way to enforce that AFTER the ready check happens, someone could use armory or an addon for build swapping, switch to a tank build, queue in as a tank, then when loading into the dungeon change gear again into their preferred build (so it wouldnt solve the fake roles at all, just a different hoop to jump through) (and no, locking gear after porting into the dungeon is also begging for problems too, with either random bugs that persist after the dungeon ends, or if someone queues for a dungeon and then messes with their gear while waiting for the queue to pop and is only partially geared but cant change anything)

the end of the day, the queue as it is, is functionally the best it can be, and the real problem is players, theres always a likelyhood that there will be problems when you just put 4 random people together in a group, doing a random dungeon (which has widely varying difficulty)

like i said in another post, i dont know what a good solution would be, because trying to add more loopholes or hinderances (additional requirements) will end up causing more problems than it tries to solve, and the other variable in the equation is just the players themselves in general (not every player queueing for the random dungeon is looking for the xp boost or if they are, they still might have different experience levels and not meet other players expectations)

AzuraFan · December 11

I enjoy doing normal dungeons. I have no intention of ever doing vet DLC dungeons (I've soloed some vet base game ones). I'd hate to have a DPS check or anything like that because I have no idea if I'd pass, even though I have no problems doing normal dungeons (and can do base game ones solo unless gated by a mechanic preventing that). I play my build because it's fun. I've occasionally had group members ask me about my build, because they can see it's fun. Nobody has ever complained about me not pulling my weight. But am I doing 40k dps? No idea.

Before everyone was running with beam, I felt like I was contributing just fine in normals (now I sometimes feel like I'm being carried when someone who's subclassing is doing 150k dps, but that's a game problem, not mine).

Some of us just want to relax and have fun. We don't see normal dungeons as a learning tool or a stepping stone to vet. It doesn't mean we're not competent or contributing to normal groups. It means we play a game to have fun. Shocking, I know.

If any checks and/or enforced role crap was introduced to normal dungeons, I'd just stop doing dungeons altogether. One less person in the queue for those wanting random normals. Probably one less ESO player too.

Daoin · December 11

and just think even if the rats that abandoned the sinking ship did come back because of another balancing act, but no one else did the numbers in steam would likely still be at an all time low, just saying i hope the powers that be can make eso great again for new players in the future after all this now

Ardriel · December 11

AzuraFan wrote: »

I enjoy doing normal dungeons. I have no intention of ever doing vet DLC dungeons (I've soloed some vet base game ones). I'd hate to have a DPS check or anything like that because I have no idea if I'd pass, even though I have no problems doing normal dungeons (and can do base game ones solo unless gated by a mechanic preventing that). I play my build because it's fun. I've occasionally had group members ask me about my build, because they can see it's fun. Nobody has ever complained about me not pulling my weight. But am I doing 40k dps? No idea.

Before everyone was running with beam, I felt like I was contributing just fine in normals (now I sometimes feel like I'm being carried when someone who's subclassing is doing 150k dps, but that's a game problem, not mine).

Some of us just want to relax and have fun. We don't see normal dungeons as a learning tool or a stepping stone to vet. It doesn't mean we're not competent or contributing to normal groups. It means we play a game to have fun. Shocking, I know.

If any checks and/or enforced role crap was introduced to normal dungeons, I'd just stop doing dungeons altogether. One less person in the queue for those wanting random normals. Probably one less ESO player too.

I'm not talking about normal dungeons. Every player should be able to queue for these without any qualifications since normal dungeons are meant to be sort of a tutorial.

As for the test within the dungeon tutorial, you could achieve two levels: level one means you are qualified for non-DLC vet dungeons, and level two means you are qualified for vet DLC dungeons. If a player can hit 30k dps on tutorial boss for example, that's enough for vet non-DLC dungeons but not for vet DLC dungeons.
There should also be equivalent numbers for healing done, damage blocked damage avoided/shielded, and similar things. Of course, the test should also check other things such as CP, certain numbers like weapon/spell damage, magicka reg, block mitigation, resistances and equipment quality. Together with the performance achieved in the test, an average value could be calculated to determine the qualification level. This would mean that, theoretically, even a player with less than 300 CP could qualify for vet DLC dungeons if their performance and stats are outstanding.

If a player is only qualified for vet non-DLC dungeons, they will not end up in a vet DLC when they queue for a random vet. Even if they are above cp 300. This would be a relief for these players. Of course, you should be able to repeat the test until you have fully qualified. Once you are good enough, vet DLC content will be unlocked.

SpaceElf · December 11

Ardriel wrote: »

I'm not talking about normal dungeons. Every player should be able to queue for these without any qualifications since normal dungeons are meant to be sort of a tutorial.

As for the test within the dungeon tutorial, you could achieve two levels: level one means you are qualified for non-DLC vet dungeons, and level two means you are qualified for vet DLC dungeons. If a player can hit 30k dps on tutorial boss for example, that's enough for vet non-DLC dungeons but not for vet DLC dungeons.
There should also be equivalent numbers for healing done, damage blocked damage avoided/shielded, and similar things. Of course, the test should also check other things such as CP, certain numbers like weapon/spell damage, magicka reg, block mitigation, resistances and equipment quality. Together with the performance achieved in the test, an average value could be calculated to determine the qualification level. This would mean that, theoretically, even a player with less than 300 CP could qualify for vet DLC dungeons if their performance and stats are outstanding.

If a player is only qualified for vet non-DLC dungeons, they will not end up in a vet DLC when they queue for a random vet. Even if they are above cp 300. This would be a relief for these players. Of course, you should be able to repeat the test until you have fully qualified. Once you are good enough, vet DLC content will be unlocked.

Okay.

My qualification to queue for a vet DLC dungeon is that I paid for the content and that I abide by ToS.

Respectfully, if normal dungeons were intended to function as tutorials, then they'd be called tutorials. They are not. They are just the lowest difficulty available for the same content you can also play on vet/hard mode. ZoS calls them 'normal' because, well, we have to call it something.

This clearly boils down a personal preference- you don't want to play with people who don't perform to your standards. That's fine. You don't want to waste your time. I get it. I have my own set of standards too. I think if you step back and really think about it, incongruent play styles or performance can be solved with a quick and polite acknowledgement and the leaving the group. I only do dungeons with friends or people I know. I know what to expect from them and vice versa. Literally was in a guild that ran dungeons slow so all grouped could do the story. That was the whole point of the guild, it was made because so many players felt the need to blast through story content at the speed of light. I was also in guilds who wanted high performance to get achievements. That was fun too, but in a different way.

Both of these examples required a level of social interaction that no in game tool or rule will solve. I do not take tests for fun. I do not find quantifying my gaming performance to be an enjoyable endeavor. I steadfastly object to this as a requirement to be allowed in content I paid for - however, that doesn't mean *you* should be forced to run content with anyone you don't want to (obviously). It just takes some effort on your part to find players that meet your standards, not create a system to deny other players access to their content so you can run Vet DLCs without having to interact with them. I'll even concede that you're not alone in feeling this way.

I'm not saying it was your plan's intention, but that's going to be the outcome. Now, that said, I think a dungeon tutorial might not be a bad idea. It still won't properly reflect a real dungeon run, but it can at least familiarize newer players with boss mechanics and grouping functionality. Although, I will say one rarely gets to 50 160CP without fighting an overland WB at least once.

Ardriel · December 11

SpaceElf wrote: »

Ardriel wrote: »

I'm not talking about normal dungeons. Every player should be able to queue for these without any qualifications since normal dungeons are meant to be sort of a tutorial.

As for the test within the dungeon tutorial, you could achieve two levels: level one means you are qualified for non-DLC vet dungeons, and level two means you are qualified for vet DLC dungeons. If a player can hit 30k dps on tutorial boss for example, that's enough for vet non-DLC dungeons but not for vet DLC dungeons.
There should also be equivalent numbers for healing done, damage blocked damage avoided/shielded, and similar things. Of course, the test should also check other things such as CP, certain numbers like weapon/spell damage, magicka reg, block mitigation, resistances and equipment quality. Together with the performance achieved in the test, an average value could be calculated to determine the qualification level. This would mean that, theoretically, even a player with less than 300 CP could qualify for vet DLC dungeons if their performance and stats are outstanding.

If a player is only qualified for vet non-DLC dungeons, they will not end up in a vet DLC when they queue for a random vet. Even if they are above cp 300. This would be a relief for these players. Of course, you should be able to repeat the test until you have fully qualified. Once you are good enough, vet DLC content will be unlocked.

Okay.

My qualification to queue for a vet DLC dungeon is that I paid for the content and that I abide by ToS.

Respectfully, if normal dungeons were intended to function as tutorials, then they'd be called tutorials. They are not. They are just the lowest difficulty available for the same content you can also play on vet/hard mode. ZoS calls them 'normal' because, well, we have to call it something.

This clearly boils down a personal preference- you don't want to play with people who don't perform to your standards. That's fine. You don't want to waste your time. I get it. I have my own set of standards too. I think if you step back and really think about it, incongruent play styles or performance can be solved with a quick and polite acknowledgement and the leaving the group. I only do dungeons with friends or people I know. I know what to expect from them and vice versa. Literally was in a guild that ran dungeons slow so all grouped could do the story. That was the whole point of the guild, it was made because so many players felt the need to blast through story content at the speed of light. I was also in guilds who wanted high performance to get achievements. That was fun too, but in a different way.

Both of these examples required a level of social interaction that no in game tool or rule will solve. I do not take tests for fun. I do not find quantifying my gaming performance to be an enjoyable endeavor. I steadfastly object to this as a requirement to be allowed in content I paid for - however, that doesn't mean *you* should be forced to run content with anyone you don't want to (obviously). It just takes some effort on your part to find players that meet your standards, not create a system to deny other players access to their content so you can run Vet DLCs without having to interact with them. I'll even concede that you're not alone in feeling this way.

I'm not saying it was your plan's intention, but that's going to be the outcome. Now, that said, I think a dungeon tutorial might not be a bad idea. It still won't properly reflect a real dungeon run, but it can at least familiarize newer players with boss mechanics and grouping functionality. Although, I will say one rarely gets to 50 160CP without fighting an overland WB at least once.

It's not just that I don't want to waste my time. With all due respect, I also paid for the DLC content. In fact, I own all DLC content on my account.
But I didn't pay to have to replace a tutorial for players who have no idea about game mechanics/don't want to deal with builds, who think dps isn't important because they just want to have fun, who have no interest in improving. However these things are also part of a multiplayer game. That means every member of the group should be willing to do their best to successfully complete the dungeon. This has nothing to do with personal preference. I have no problem at all to play with people who “don't perform to my standards” as long as they at least try and accept advice and understand mechanics.
If you don’t find quantifying your gaming performance to be an enjoyable endeavour, do you really enjoy being carried through DLC content by other players?
Well, I don't enjoy carrying others. I didn't pay for that either.

alpha_synuclein · December 11

tincanman wrote: »

No objection to separate tutorials, although, to be fair guilds are often the first stop for learning and teaching pretty much most aspects of the game, including dungeon mechanics, optimal builds etc. Despite a lot of long-term 'advanced' players quitting or playing less there's still a superior body of dynamic knowledge available via this route than any static tutorial could ever provide.

Imo most players who fake roles badly are doing it because they learned it's ok from normal randoms. Fair share is not reaching out to guilds and if they do and hear something they don't like, they just assume elitism/gatekeeping. Some sort of performance feedback coming from the game itself might make a difference.

Daoin · December 11

Ardriel wrote: »

SpaceElf wrote: »

Ardriel wrote: »

I'm not talking about normal dungeons. Every player should be able to queue for these without any qualifications since normal dungeons are meant to be sort of a tutorial.

As for the test within the dungeon tutorial, you could achieve two levels: level one means you are qualified for non-DLC vet dungeons, and level two means you are qualified for vet DLC dungeons. If a player can hit 30k dps on tutorial boss for example, that's enough for vet non-DLC dungeons but not for vet DLC dungeons.
There should also be equivalent numbers for healing done, damage blocked damage avoided/shielded, and similar things. Of course, the test should also check other things such as CP, certain numbers like weapon/spell damage, magicka reg, block mitigation, resistances and equipment quality. Together with the performance achieved in the test, an average value could be calculated to determine the qualification level. This would mean that, theoretically, even a player with less than 300 CP could qualify for vet DLC dungeons if their performance and stats are outstanding.

If a player is only qualified for vet non-DLC dungeons, they will not end up in a vet DLC when they queue for a random vet. Even if they are above cp 300. This would be a relief for these players. Of course, you should be able to repeat the test until you have fully qualified. Once you are good enough, vet DLC content will be unlocked.

Okay.

My qualification to queue for a vet DLC dungeon is that I paid for the content and that I abide by ToS.

Respectfully, if normal dungeons were intended to function as tutorials, then they'd be called tutorials. They are not. They are just the lowest difficulty available for the same content you can also play on vet/hard mode. ZoS calls them 'normal' because, well, we have to call it something.

This clearly boils down a personal preference- you don't want to play with people who don't perform to your standards. That's fine. You don't want to waste your time. I get it. I have my own set of standards too. I think if you step back and really think about it, incongruent play styles or performance can be solved with a quick and polite acknowledgement and the leaving the group. I only do dungeons with friends or people I know. I know what to expect from them and vice versa. Literally was in a guild that ran dungeons slow so all grouped could do the story. That was the whole point of the guild, it was made because so many players felt the need to blast through story content at the speed of light. I was also in guilds who wanted high performance to get achievements. That was fun too, but in a different way.

Both of these examples required a level of social interaction that no in game tool or rule will solve. I do not take tests for fun. I do not find quantifying my gaming performance to be an enjoyable endeavor. I steadfastly object to this as a requirement to be allowed in content I paid for - however, that doesn't mean *you* should be forced to run content with anyone you don't want to (obviously). It just takes some effort on your part to find players that meet your standards, not create a system to deny other players access to their content so you can run Vet DLCs without having to interact with them. I'll even concede that you're not alone in feeling this way.

I'm not saying it was your plan's intention, but that's going to be the outcome. Now, that said, I think a dungeon tutorial might not be a bad idea. It still won't properly reflect a real dungeon run, but it can at least familiarize newer players with boss mechanics and grouping functionality. Although, I will say one rarely gets to 50 160CP without fighting an overland WB at least once.

It's not just that I don't want to waste my time. With all due respect, I also paid for the DLC content. In fact, I own all DLC content on my account.
But I didn't pay to have to replace a tutorial for players who have no idea about game mechanics/don't want to deal with builds, who think dps isn't important because they just want to have fun, who have no interest in improving. However these things are also part of a multiplayer game. That means every member of the group should be willing to do their best to successfully complete the dungeon. This has nothing to do with personal preference. I have no problem at all to play with people who “don't perform to my standards” as long as they at least try and accept advice and understand mechanics.
If you don’t find quantifying your gaming performance to be an enjoyable endeavour, do you really enjoy being carried through DLC content by other players?
Well, I don't enjoy carrying others. I didn't pay for that either.

god forbid anyone except the want to be elitists and top bread should be playing a game for the sole purpose of having fun eh

twisttop138 · December 11

Heronisan wrote: »

A tutorial for roles is needed, and a dps check for dd's in particular.

One of the main reasons theres barely any tanks in v randoms is because the dd's u get are often so bad its unbelivable, so all the good tanks either play with guilds/friends then risk getting people who cant even read skill descriptions ( im looking at you, dd who uses templar beam when boss is at 100% and heavy attacks when boss is at 30%, or the dd spamming arcanist beam no crux on a single target boss, when he was heavy attacking trash packs the entire dungeon, or the oakensoul HA user, doing nothing but holding down heavy attack, with sorc barrier skill and healing bird equipped doing 20k dps, who also rushes ahead of the tank and pulls bosses and trash packs before the group has caught up)

Its really bad lately on console xbox eu, after subclassing they are comming into dlc vet dungeons with 2 tank skill lines and 1 dps skill line because its a thematic build, dealing 10k dps and spamming frozen gate. Some of these dungeons have actual dps checks, u just know after the first trash pack u will never get past.

[snip]

If dd's can start to learn to play the game properly for vet dungeons, more tanks might take the chance queing solo.

[Edit for Inappropriate Content and Language]

This is unfortunate but you hit the nail on the head. Forming your own groups is the best way to ensure that all your needs will be met. With 5 possible guilds and unlimited number of discords, it's never been easier. I still do random from time to time and group finder vet trials sometimes and we actually succeed. But for some reason vet dungeons are a crapshoot. My opinion is there isn't enough people to cover for the mistakes of bad DPS or another tank to jump in and grab a boss while someone rezzed the bad tank. I'd say for people learning, the best way to learn your role is to level with dungeons. Random normal dungeons all the way to 50. Then have your guild start bringing you into vets. It's how I learned to tank after many years as a DPS and while I'm pretty mid, I can tank most vet trials now and it only took a few months.

AzuraFan · December 11

Ardriel wrote: »

As for the test within the dungeon tutorial,

I'm sorry, what? You want people to have to pass some test in a dungeon tutorial to play content they paid for? This isn't a job. I know some people like to turn it into one, but if I have to qualify for something, I expect real money or something really cool in return. Permission to play content I own doesn't cut it.

Look, I get that sometimes you end up in random groups with players that don't play the way you expect them to and it can lead to wasted time. Guess what? The same has happened to lil-old-plays-the-way-I-want me in normal dungeons. When I queue for a specific dungeon as a DPS, I can wait more than 30 minutes just to get into a dungeon. Then it turns out to be a DLC dungeon so someone drops right away. Or someone quits the moment anyone dies, or when the group wipes. Or we get a tank that runs around dragging the boss with them. Or a speedrunner who drags the group to every boss, and by the time we get there, they're dead.

But I don't come to the forums and suggest that since I'm the centre of the universe and the most important player in any pug, ZOS should spend development time gating people from dungeons they paid for so I never have to waste a second in a random dungeon.

When I queue for a random, I'm going to get a random group and sometimes stuff will happen that doesn't make me happy. If you're not willing to accept that, there's a simple solution. Don't do dungeons with pugs. Problem solved. Don't want to do that? Then accept that sometimes runs will be complete chaos and you won't complete the dungeon.

Veinblood1965 · December 11

The ignore role requirements is a nice idea.

It's just a simple calculation for that check box. ZoS could just make it if you are queuing as a healer or tank that there are never more than one of each in any group you get tossed into that chose to ignore the role requirements.

peacenote · December 11

Tutorials? Absolutely yes. Hints/Tips/Suggestions/Alerts? Sure.

Gatekeeping and policing? No way; I am very much against this. Yes, fake roles can be annoying, but this would be worse. Let's not forget that sometimes people go in with odd groupings to challenge themselves, or with purposely under leveled teammates to help them level abilities or get the skill point or whatever. You can be a group of four people and still queue. Must we ruin that?

Also, I'd like to point out that the "build suggestions" we have today are often not correct for what I'm trying to do, so I suspect checks would create as many problems as they'd solve.

Instead, I really think that ZOS should release many of the DLC dungeons to non-subscribers; this would normalize that the standard dungeon experience isn't FG1 faceroll. I suspect that this isn't a very popular opinion but I stand by it.

When I queue up for a ToT game, or a battleground, I am not guaranteed a win. Trial groups will literally prog the first boss in a HM and not complete the trial in a session. Why people seem to believe that they should be guaranteed a clear by queuing for a dungeon, and that they are entitled to do it every time with awesomely skilled and geared up people is beyond me (although I say that for effect - I believe some of it has been accidentally culturally curated by ZOS based on how they evolved the dungeon reward systems). You win some, and you lose some. Fake roles are not a problem if the group is clearing; if the group isn't clearing there is a kick option for a reason. In the beginning, I never queued up for a dungeon and expected a clear; I hoped for one. A failed dungeon experience should inspire people to gear better, learn more, join a guild, or find friends, but for some reason it creates this attitude of "I want the system to make my perfect team without any effort on my part."

I also think ZOS should remove the cap on storing transmutes.

alpha_synuclein · December 11

peacenote wrote: »

Instead, I really think that ZOS should release many of the DLC dungeons to non-subscribers; this would normalize that the standard dungeon experience isn't FG1 faceroll. I suspect that this isn't a very popular opinion but I stand by it.

Very good suggestion.
But I agree, it won't be popular.

ZOS_Hadeostry · December 11

Greetings,

After removing some unnecessary back and forth from this thread, we would like everyone to keep posts on the subject at hand, civil, and constructive.

If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, please feel free to review them here

mattaeus01b16_ESO · December 12

Heavy mechanic dungeons or trials, I always ask the same thing

"Everyone here know the mechs or need a explanation? "

Followed by dead silence.
- Party wipe -

"Everyone here know the mechs or need a explanation? No? We all ready to die again?"

Ardriel · December 12

AzuraFan wrote: »

Ardriel wrote: »

As for the test within the dungeon tutorial,

I'm sorry, what? You want people to have to pass some test in a dungeon tutorial to play content they paid for? This isn't a job. I know some people like to turn it into one, but if I have to qualify for something, I expect real money or something really cool in return. Permission to play content I own doesn't cut it.

Being able to access content because you paid for it is not an argument. Simply owning DLCs does not qualify players for vet DLC content. What about players who are below CP 300? They cannot queue for vet DLCs either, even if they have paid for them. I would like to clarify once again that I am talking about veteran dungeons here.
This test already exists in other MMOs, such as WoW. No one complains there.

Besides, what good is it to be able to queue for a vet DLC dungeon if the group disbands at the first boss due to incompetence? Time is also money.
Don't forget that ESO is a multiplayer game. Everyone should contribute to the group. As best they can. It's very unfair to want to participate in veteran content without meeting the necessary requirements. It's unfair to your fellow players. They've all paid for it too.

Heronisan · December 12

It's very strange how some people are against improving the most basic que finder i have ever seen.

"whats the point of colour tv! we can see everything clearly in black and white, want colours? Walk outside" thats the vibe im getting

This random dungeon finder was made when we only had base game dungeons, it was not designed when we had such an insane difficulty difference in the same que, and its only getting worse. Having FG1 and GD in the same que pool as soon as someone dings cp300 is horrible game design, and there needs to be better solutions to make it clearer what skills are needed to complete it. Especially when this game does such a horrible job with its easy overland tesching people how to play

Its also a problem how random Que finder is pooling together to many players with to many different goals. Some people only want to play base game, some people only dlc, everyone wants the reward, and since base game dungeons are so easy u can fake role, people who roll the dice and fske role hoping for a base game quit instantly, turning even more runs to ***. There needs to be 2 separate random dungeon ques, 1 for base and 1 for dlc, or there needs to be tutorials, teaching players how to actuslly play.

Its been 8 years since SCP came out, and the average pug still cant even get past the first boss. 8 years.

And everytime someone suggests improvements to the tool, whats the number 1 suggestion? Dont use random dungeon finder if u want to have a good run.

When the number 1 solution is to not use it, it should ring some bells that it needs to be worked on.

So many people have such a bad experience in random dungeon finder its doing actual harm to the game. As people actuslly quit the game or avoid doing dungeons at all. There should not be a problem doing just the most basic upgrades to improve it.

AzuraFan · December 12

Ardriel wrote: »

Being able to access content because you paid for it is not an argument.

Sure is it. If I pay for something, I expect to be able to use it. Otherwise why the heck am I paying for it?

This test already exists in other MMOs, such as WoW. No one complains there.

This isn't WoW. Having said that, was the test always in place? Or was it introduced at a later date? If the latter, then maybe it would work here.

Besides, what good is it to be able to queue for a vet DLC dungeon if the group disbands at the first boss due to incompetence? Time is also money.
Don't forget that ESO is a multiplayer game. Everyone should contribute to the group. As best they can. It's very unfair to want to participate in veteran content without meeting the necessary requirements. It's unfair to your fellow players. They've all paid for it too.

I agree that people who don't have the right build or skills shouldn't queue for vet. That's why I don't queue for vet DLC dungeons. But I despise gatekeeping. I really do. Players won't learn if they can't even try.

I don't know what the answer is, except not to use the dungeon queue. That's what we tell people who want to do the quest, fully explore a dungeon, etc. I'd certainly like to see dungeon queue improvements, and maybe something could be done there.

alpha_synuclein · 8:24AM

AzuraFan wrote: »

I agree that people who don't have the right build or skills shouldn't queue for vet. That's why I don't queue for vet DLC dungeons. But I despise gatekeeping. I really do. Players won't learn if they can't even try.

And I despise labelling every tiny limitation as gatekeeping....

It's not about keeping people gorm using what they paid for, it's about making players aware what they are getting into. And allowing them to try and scope the vet difficulty for themselves, before being dropped in hard dungeon with a bunch of randoms.

I spend first few months playing slowly through overland, running around on my petsorc and hardcasting frags before it was fashionable 😅.
After a bit I queue for few normal dungeons (very few, 3 or 4). I only got the easy basegame ones. So I thought "hey, that's easy, let's go for vet!". I got Scalecaller. One of the newest back then. Do I need to explain how that ended? 😂

Anyway, this was the point when I started googling builds and mechs. And I was very surprised of how much stuff I don't know or ever encountered while playing.
I get that it might be not everyones kind of thing, but at that moment I personally would very appreciate a tutorial that would show me where I'm going and what do I need to beat it.

Ardriel · 8:48AM

AzuraFan wrote: »

Ardriel wrote: »

Being able to access content because you paid for it is not an argument.

Sure is it. If I pay for something, I expect to be able to use it. Otherwise why the heck am I paying for it?

This test already exists in other MMOs, such as WoW. No one complains there.

This isn't WoW. Having said that, was the test always in place? Or was it introduced at a later date? If the latter, then maybe it would work here.

Besides, what good is it to be able to queue for a vet DLC dungeon if the group disbands at the first boss due to incompetence? Time is also money.
Don't forget that ESO is a multiplayer game. Everyone should contribute to the group. As best they can. It's very unfair to want to participate in veteran content without meeting the necessary requirements. It's unfair to your fellow players. They've all paid for it too.

I agree that people who don't have the right build or skills shouldn't queue for vet. That's why I don't queue for vet DLC dungeons. But I despise gatekeeping. I really do. Players won't learn if they can't even try.

I don't know what the answer is, except not to use the dungeon queue. That's what we tell people who want to do the quest, fully explore a dungeon, etc. I'd certainly like to see dungeon queue improvements, and maybe something could be done there.

If you don't queue for vet dlc, where is the problem? I'm talking about VET dungeons. Please read a little more carefully before answering. A tutorial with qualification test would be only for vet dungeons. Same in WoW, where it was introduced much later, you only need to qualify for heroic dungeons.
So, if you want to do dlc dungeons you can do them on normal any time. Once you have improved your skills and are ready for vet dlc dungeons, you can queue for them.
And you can ALWAYS do vet dlc dungeons if you just port into them. Didn't you know that? So stop using the cheap "I've paid for it" argument.

Just an hour ago, I ended up in a NORMAL random group on PC NA that was almost incapable of completing Scriveners Hall. No knowledge of mechanics, players didn’t know that you must not stand in front of bosses, the fake tank had no idea about mechanics, taunts, blocking, whatsoever. The group damage was around 12k. As a healer, the fight felt almost as challenging to me as vet hard mode. And it took just as long.
Now imagine people like that ending up in this dungeon on vet. As a healer or tank don't stand a chance and have to leave the group. You can explain as much as you want. If the dds don't do any damage, don't rez, and have no idea about the simplest base game mechanics. Unfortunately, you can't heal the bosses in vet DLC to death.

I also paid for VET DLC content. I wrote that earlier, but you obviously didn't read it.
I would also like to complete the dungeons I paid for not only queue for them... And I don't have unlimited time.

That dungeon group earlier was a typical example of why we need a dungeon tutorial. Including a final test – and again for everyone – only for VET DUNGEONS.

Verling · 10:27AM

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

heck i typically test myself soloing some non dlc vet HM dungeons on a dps with a tank companion just because i can lol

Why a partner? Non-DLC veterans can be completed in one. If the mechanics allow. A well-made build for heavy attacks with an oak tree ring. The 3 classes are Enchanter, Nightblade, and Warden. With a good cooldown and damage up to 96k on the manikin. In difficult situations, you can switch to a build with a wizard's shield skill and a taunt from the Guild of the Indefatigable.

5 years ago, we went to regular dungeons with a tank, healer and 2 dd.
Then we started going to the veterans' training in tank and 3 dd .
Then we ran at 4 dd.
And now I can go alone.

p.s. I have a dressed enchanted arcanist with a damage of about 100k. But I don't like this class.

Verling · 10:47AM

Ardriel wrote: »

I have to agree with you there. Of course, you don't need a healer in dungeons like vFG1, actually you don’t need a tank either. But there are also non-DLC dungeons, such as Selene Vet, where a tank is useful. At the last boss. Especially when there's aggro ping pong, you have to be careful that the bear doesn't 1-shot you.

I used to think the same way. But in fact, everything can be simpler. The main thing is to make a somersault on time. And the bear is not scary.
There is another trick in this dungeon. Before the boss starts to attract, increase the distance to the maximum. He won't be able to pull you close. If all players move to a maximum distance of 15 meters. And while the boss is rushing between them, he will already be dead.

ZhuJiuyin · 1:04PM

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

And I despise labelling every tiny limitation as gatekeeping....

It's not about keeping people gorm using what they paid for, it's about making players aware what they are getting into. And allowing them to try and scope the vet difficulty for themselves, before being dropped in hard dungeon with a bunch of randoms.

I spend first few months playing slowly through overland, running around on my petsorc and hardcasting frags before it was fashionable 😅.
After a bit I queue for few normal dungeons (very few, 3 or 4). I only got the easy basegame ones. So I thought "hey, that's easy, let's go for vet!". I got Scalecaller. One of the newest back then. Do I need to explain how that ended? 😂

Anyway, this was the point when I started googling builds and mechs. And I was very surprised of how much stuff I don't know or ever encountered while playing.
I get that it might be not everyones kind of thing, but at that moment I personally would very appreciate a tutorial that would show me where I'm going and what do I need to beat it.

100% Agreed.

Even in an approachable game like Pokémon, you need to collect badges (certifications) to control Pokémon of a certain level; otherwise, they will refuse to follow commands.😅
Therefore, I completely fail to understand why anyone is so afraid of certifications. Everyone who can access the Veteran Dungeons or Trials in the DLC has paid; no one is obligated to waste time just for someone wanting to play a specific and inadequate role. A Healer who doesn't know how to heal, a Tank who doesn't know how to taunt, a DPS with no decent damage output—these people should absolutely be banned from Random Dungeons because they are the real culprits. They make the completion rate of Random Dungeons unpredictable and reduce other users' willingness to use the feature.

And those who suggest forming their own teams are even more absurd. Shouldn't it be the other way around? Those who want to play inadequate or fake roles should find their own teams instead of harming Random Dungeon users. This is a classic case of Gresham's Law, ultimately driving out those who genuinely use the feature. If you want to cosplay as a fake tank/heal/dd, or if you are completely unfamiliar with the character you're playing, you should find friends, a guild, or a Discord team yourself, instead of letting three complete strangers waste their time just to satisfy your cosplay desires. That's irresponsible and unethical.

Ardriel · 1:18PM

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

And I despise labelling every tiny limitation as gatekeeping....

It's not about keeping people gorm using what they paid for, it's about making players aware what they are getting into. And allowing them to try and scope the vet difficulty for themselves, before being dropped in hard dungeon with a bunch of randoms.

I spend first few months playing slowly through overland, running around on my petsorc and hardcasting frags before it was fashionable 😅.
After a bit I queue for few normal dungeons (very few, 3 or 4). I only got the easy basegame ones. So I thought "hey, that's easy, let's go for vet!". I got Scalecaller. One of the newest back then. Do I need to explain how that ended? 😂

Anyway, this was the point when I started googling builds and mechs. And I was very surprised of how much stuff I don't know or ever encountered while playing.
I get that it might be not everyones kind of thing, but at that moment I personally would very appreciate a tutorial that would show me where I'm going and what do I need to beat it.

100% Agreed.

Even in an approachable game like Pokémon, you need to collect badges (certifications) to control Pokémon of a certain level; otherwise, they will refuse to follow commands.😅
Therefore, I completely fail to understand why anyone is so afraid of certifications. Everyone who can access the Veteran Dungeons or Trials in the DLC has paid; no one is obligated to waste time just for someone wanting to play a specific and inadequate role. A Healer who doesn't know how to heal, a Tank who doesn't know how to taunt, a DPS with no decent damage output—these people should absolutely be banned from Random Dungeons because they are the real culprits. They make the completion rate of Random Dungeons unpredictable and reduce other users' willingness to use the feature.

And those who suggest forming their own teams are even more absurd. Shouldn't it be the other way around? Those who want to play inadequate or fake roles should find their own teams instead of harming Random Dungeon users. This is a classic case of Gresham's Law, ultimately driving out those who genuinely use the feature. If you want to cosplay as a fake tank/heal/dd, or if you are completely unfamiliar with the character you're playing, you should find friends, a guild, or a Discord team yourself, instead of letting three complete strangers waste their time just to satisfy your cosplay desires. That's irresponsible and unethical.

100% my opinion. That's exactly how it is.

Fischblut · 1:40PM

Recently I was in Black Gem Foundry group where other dd (~700 CP) was not following any mechanic, dying to everything, and doing 20-25% damage total on every encounter, mobs or bosses. I explained basics of every special boss mechanic to him before each boss because it was clearly the person who probably never was in (any?) dungeon before, he always said "ok"... and then never performed anything correctly afterwards. On top of that, he was running off to the far away corners as soon as he started taking damage, so the heals can't reach him; standing in red circles; on the second boss he deliberately went in to lava just to make sure it is hot enough to kill his character fast...

After I asked him "why you go into lava?", he said "I don't know"

And in the end he said "thanks for explaining mechanics", even though he failed every thing I explained; I took it as an insult personally

I totally support dungeon tutorials and requirements for roles; but I wonder if any dungeon tutorial would work on that player

AzuraFan · 2:45PM

Ardriel wrote: »

If you don't queue for vet dlc, where is the problem? I'm talking about VET dungeons. Please read a little more carefully before answering

There are vet basegame dungeons, I believe. You'd do well to heed your own advice.

Also, as I've explained, I've run into problems with pugs doing normal dungeons. Should we start demanding certifications for them, too? Or is a player's time more important when doing a vet dungeon than when doing a normal dungeon? (spoiler alert: the answer is no)

Anyway, we'll agree to disagree on certification or requirements. We're not going to change each other's minds.

(I'm totally on board for better tutorials.)