Subclassing worse than U35?

gc0018 · May 15

No, it won't. Now, ESO is dying. Any patch will only speed it up/slow it down. It won't change the overall trend. Yet, U35 completely turn things upside down, after U35, the previous-booming ESO began to go down.

necro_the_crafter · May 15

ADarklore wrote: »

But the players ARE creating the problem. There are certain players- min/maxers- who spend all their time trying to find the most minute increase... and then since so many people are followers- those players just blindly follow along. Then, many of these leaders start making the, "Well you need to run this certain build, set, in order to run with our group"... and followers gotta follow. So no matter WHAT the devs do, no matter what 'balance' they try to achieve- these min/maxers will always find the 'best build' even if it's a fraction of a percent- and people will follow along. That's not the devs fault... AT ALL. There is no way they can find a perfect balance, and IMO, I believe they have given up trying to appease this group.

If players just said... NO! If they just stopped following these people, if they stopped grouping with those who limit what players can have for builds... they would either leave or open up their groups. This would eliminate the 'meta' problem because people would stop following along and would then play what they find to be personally FUN. Yes, some people find being a follower to be fun... I don't... hence the reason I refuse to deal with groups or group content. Since ZOS's established concept for ESO is 'Skyrim with friends'... then subclassing further moves the game to that end.

My man just try winning in video game. Wins are fun. If you lose in a video game -> you sad, if you win -> happy.
And the more challenging the task, the more enjoymet you get from wins. And sometimes challanges are so hard, that they take a communal effort to come up with the best strategy to overcome that.

Sure, therosing an effective sub-meta way to overcome a challange is also fun, but its takes a bunch of time and dedication, and doesnt really change the outcome. So in a world were people have real lifes and jobs and kids and other stuff to do, if you want to take W's insdeat of L's you want to pick up a meta build and go do your content optimal way, to enjoy your W's and still have time to do other stuff.

"Skyrim with friends" - desnt imply that ZoS looking for a way to make game playeable solo, with occasional multiplayer events, you can see it in a set of group content they release on a schedule. You have games like Elden Ring for that. Which are single-player focused, but with an option for multiplayer if you into that.

Ragnarok0130 · May 16

Daoin wrote: »

hamburger pizzas are already gaining popularity maybe the same happen with subclassing evetually ? just google up what is hamburger pizza for the delicious recipe

Putting on my ZoS marketing hat: "We can say 100% of our customers love the hamburger pizza when the 80% of your customers that hated it stopped coming to the restaurant."

SaintJohnHM · May 16

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

hamburger pizzas are already gaining popularity maybe the same happen with subclassing evetually ? just google up what is hamburger pizza for the delicious recipe

Putting on my ZoS marketing hat: "We can say 100% of our customers love the hamburger pizza when the 80% of your customers that hated it stopped coming to the restaurant."

Yep. And I actually think they'll see a bump when it gets released from curious folks coming back to check it out, but it won't last long.

Daoin · May 16

SaintJohnHM wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

hamburger pizzas are already gaining popularity maybe the same happen with subclassing evetually ? just google up what is hamburger pizza for the delicious recipe

Putting on my ZoS marketing hat: "We can say 100% of our customers love the hamburger pizza when the 80% of your customers that hated it stopped coming to the restaurant."

Yep. And I actually think they'll see a bump when it gets released from curious folks coming back to check it out, but it won't last long.

well the overall population rather than who leaves and who is staying thing to me is more important in the end, my thinking is not many will return but alot of new players may follow with the new system once its operational and ironed out a bit, its likely something that the younger generation than now would enjoy more than old eso, this still works out well for my playstyle and things i enjoy which one of the main things is keeping random vet dungeons challenging and fun, for this to happen eso needs in any way to have at some point a huge jump in daily players, especially new players and to finally drop the powercreep approach once and for all, as it stands now and the outlook is that i may aswell log in and twiddle my thumbs then log out again

SaintJohnHM · May 16

Daoin wrote: »

SaintJohnHM wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

hamburger pizzas are already gaining popularity maybe the same happen with subclassing evetually ? just google up what is hamburger pizza for the delicious recipe

Putting on my ZoS marketing hat: "We can say 100% of our customers love the hamburger pizza when the 80% of your customers that hated it stopped coming to the restaurant."

Yep. And I actually think they'll see a bump when it gets released from curious folks coming back to check it out, but it won't last long.

well the overall population rather than who leaves and who is staying thing to me is more important in the end, my thinking is not many will return but alot of new players may follow with the new system once its operational and ironed out a bit, its likely something that the younger generation than now would enjoy more than old eso, this still works out well for my playstyle and things i enjoy which one of the main things is keeping random vet dungeons challenging and fun, for this to happen eso needs in any way to have at some point a huge jump in daily players, especially new players and to finally drop the powercreep approach once and for all, as it stands now and the outlook is that i may aswell log in and twiddle my thumbs then log out agaon

yeah, maybe it'll be worth it for them to lose the players who hate how multiclassing makes pure classes weaker and makes challenging content to be too easy for repeat play.

Daoin · May 16

smells like a way of saying hey, we been here well over 10 years we just need everyone to stick around another 10 while we get eso 2 right instead and we hope you enjoy it

SaintJohnHM · May 16

Daoin wrote: »

smells like a way of saying hey, we been here well over 10 years we just need everyone to stick around another 10 while we get eso 2 right instead and we hope you enjoy it

to the many folks who hate how this garbage multiclass implementation will make the game a lot less fun for them it sounds a lot worse.

Daoin · May 16

SaintJohnHM wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

smells like a way of saying hey, we been here well over 10 years we just need everyone to stick around another 10 while we get eso 2 right instead and we hope you enjoy it

to the many folks who hate how this garbage multiclass implementation will make the game a lot less fun for them it sounds a lot worse.

thats true but it actually does give some food for thought on exactly where eso (2) may actual be in another 10 years from now, i mean i know where i intend to be

necro_the_crafter · May 17

Subclassing is a mirror of u35.
before hybridisation we had a long and stale meta of stamina builds performing better than mag builds simply because armour and weapon passives.
classic stamina setup back in a day used 5pc medium with axe and dagger that provided you with
-bleed proc from the axe
-%crit chanse from armor passives and dagger
-%weapon damage from armour passives
vs mag builds that had a pen bonus instead of weapon/spell damage bonus and that it.
So, zos, in their infinate wisdom coocked u35 -> and boom, mag/stam specs no longer exist, and the discourse of mag vs stam is over.

But as wee see DW + medium armour is still meta, which means that stamina won, in some way, and light armor+destrostaff never recovered. They tried to tweak it, but medium is still overperforming in any scenario, and light armour only exists for the sake of 2% max stats from undauted mettle passive, or if you itemising with non-crafted set and have to slot light armor pieces.

In conclusion, I'm geniunly worried that same would happen with subclassing. Beam setups would simply win, and everything else will be left for RP purposes.

SaintJohnHM · May 18

Multiclassing could have been fun for everyone if they just spent a little more time figuring out how to balance it better and preserve pure classes. There's no reason they have to force this on us before it's ready, supposedly they weren't going to be beholden to release schedules so they could ensure a quality product.

SilverBride · May 18

Subclassing could never be fun for everyone because not everyone is into theorycrafting. Just the thought of having to do that kills my desire to play at all.

cuddles_with_wroble · May 18

Daoin wrote: »

SaintJohnHM wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

hamburger pizzas are already gaining popularity maybe the same happen with subclassing evetually ? just google up what is hamburger pizza for the delicious recipe

Putting on my ZoS marketing hat: "We can say 100% of our customers love the hamburger pizza when the 80% of your customers that hated it stopped coming to the restaurant."

Yep. And I actually think they'll see a bump when it gets released from curious folks coming back to check it out, but it won't last long.

well the overall population rather than who leaves and who is staying thing to me is more important in the end, my thinking is not many will return but alot of new players may follow with the new system once its operational and ironed out a bit, its likely something that the younger generation than now would enjoy more than old eso, this still works out well for my playstyle and things i enjoy which one of the main things is keeping random vet dungeons challenging and fun, for this to happen eso needs in any way to have at some point a huge jump in daily players, especially new players and to finally drop the powercreep approach once and for all, as it stands now and the outlook is that i may aswell log in and twiddle my thumbs then log out again

The most important peoples opinions to get is people who are leaving or have already left, you’ll find most of them love this game but some part of it drove them way.

YandereGirlfriend · May 18

SilverBride wrote: »

Subclassing could never be fun for everyone because not everyone is into theorycrafting. Just the thought of having to do that kills my desire to play at all.

Then just stick with your pure class. Problem solved. EZ.

tomofhyrule · May 18

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Subclassing could never be fun for everyone because not everyone is into theorycrafting. Just the thought of having to do that kills my desire to play at all.

Then just stick with your pure class. Problem solved. EZ.

Which is a problem with how Subclassing was done - if a lot of skill lines get nerfed because you could mix them with others, and then you don't, that means you get a nerf for nothing.

That's the issue a lot of people have with Subclassing. "Just stick with your pure class!" is what some people want to do. Saying it as "Just eat a bunch of nerfs and be 25% behind where you currently are and about 50% behind the sweats!" makes it obvious why people are salty.

SilverBride · May 18

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Subclassing could never be fun for everyone because not everyone is into theorycrafting. Just the thought of having to do that kills my desire to play at all.

Then just stick with your pure class. Problem solved. EZ.

If only that were possible.

But as @tomofhyrule pointed out, skills are being nerfed which results in pure classes being 25% behind where we currently are.

SaintJohnHM · May 18

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Subclassing could never be fun for everyone because not everyone is into theorycrafting. Just the thought of having to do that kills my desire to play at all.

Then just stick with your pure class. Problem solved. EZ.

that's part of what many players have a big problem with, pure classes that players have loved to play for years have been nerfed hard and made unfun.

Stamicka · May 18

Yea this is much worse. I've stuck around for 10 years even though it's felt like every year since 2017 has made the game worse. I've put up with a lot of patches that I was extremely unhappy with, but this one is the end of the line for me.

I was going to give it a chance, but then I tried to theorycraft a PvP build in my head. I knew I needed: Major Resolve, Major Brutality, some sort of secondary HoT, and good burst damage, preferably with some delayed burst for combos. This is basically what's needed for any PvP build at this point.

I came up with: Assassination, Animal Companions, and Restoring Light. This combination gets me all the buffs I need and the shalks give me both breach and a delayed burst skill. Then I realized that any other build I tried to come up with was just a slightly different flavor that often required 2 of those 3 skill lines to get what I needed.

I just don't see how the game can be fun in PvP when almost everyone will be on some variation of the same "class". Everything will get so samey so quickly.

Maybe Vengeance can be expanded on and subclassing will be banned there. That's the only thing that can keep me around at this point.

moderatelyfatman · May 19

Stamicka wrote: »

Yea this is much worse. I've stuck around for 10 years even though it's felt like every year since 2017 has made the game worse. I've put up with a lot of patches that I was extremely unhappy with, but this one is the end of the line for me.

I was going to give it a chance, but then I tried to theorycraft a PvP build in my head. I knew I needed: Major Resolve, Major Brutality, some sort of secondary HoT, and good burst damage, preferably with some delayed burst for combos. This is basically what's needed for any PvP build at this point.

I came up with: Assassination, Animal Companions, and Restoring Light. This combination gets me all the buffs I need and the shalks give me both breach and a delayed burst skill. Then I realized that any other build I tried to come up with was just a slightly different flavor that often required 2 of those 3 skill lines to get what I needed.

I just don't see how the game can be fun in PvP when almost everyone will be on some variation of the same "class". Everything will get so samey so quickly.

Maybe Vengeance can be expanded on and subclassing will be banned there. That's the only thing that can keep me around at this point.

As someone who has spent 8.5k hours in this game (a lot of it in Cyrodiil) and coming back after a break, I'm going to do some PvE but I wouldn't go anywhere near PvP. Can you imagine how much worse ball groups are going to become?
At this stage a Vengeance style campaign without subclassing is way more appealing.

NoSoup · May 19

SilverBride wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Subclassing could never be fun for everyone because not everyone is into theorycrafting. Just the thought of having to do that kills my desire to play at all.

Then just stick with your pure class. Problem solved. EZ.

If only that were possible.

But as @tomofhyrule pointed out, skills are being nerfed which results in pure classes being 25% behind where we currently are.

The sorc tears are a bit over the top, the class was overperforming for ages and should have been nerfed down a while ago. None of the sorc nerfs are that over the top and the class is still going to be very strong next patch even without subclassing on it.

cuddles_with_wroble · May 19

NoSoup wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Subclassing could never be fun for everyone because not everyone is into theorycrafting. Just the thought of having to do that kills my desire to play at all.

Then just stick with your pure class. Problem solved. EZ.

If only that were possible.

But as @tomofhyrule pointed out, skills are being nerfed which results in pure classes being 25% behind where we currently are.

The sorc tears are a bit over the top, the class was overperforming for ages and should have been nerfed down a while ago. None of the sorc nerfs are that over the top and the class is still going to be very strong next patch even without subclassing on it.

The sorc tears are indeed not over the top, their class is gutted next patch with subclassing.

The pets being double bar still is a violation of human rights at this point in the game

The fact that all of your important skills are split between all 3 skill lines means you kinda always lose something if you subclass too. Nightblade assassination for example gives you access to basically the entire nightblade offensive kit in 1 skill line, or restoring light on Templar which basically gives you the entire defensive kit of Templar in 1 skill line.

The skill lines need to be balanced against each other and currently they are VERY far from it

SaintJohnHM · May 19

NoSoup wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Subclassing could never be fun for everyone because not everyone is into theorycrafting. Just the thought of having to do that kills my desire to play at all.

Then just stick with your pure class. Problem solved. EZ.

If only that were possible.

But as @tomofhyrule pointed out, skills are being nerfed which results in pure classes being 25% behind where we currently are.

The sorc tears are a bit over the top, the class was overperforming for ages and should have been nerfed down a while ago. None of the sorc nerfs are that over the top and the class is still going to be very strong next patch even without subclassing on it.

Wrong. There will be no advantage to playing a pure class in group PVE content, especially not the sorc, performance is much lower than multiclasses. I've also heard people say super dumb stuff like "sorcs shouldn't have a shield that heals, let them waste bar space with pets" while every other class has multiple skills with two abilities (arc dmg beam and shield, etc).

mrreow · May 19

The way I see it is that this patch we will choose one character out of our 20 and just convert the rest to sad, naked writ crafting alts.

Not exactly the healthiest for the game imo. At least give me token that officially transforms them into slaves with +10% craft and move speed.

sarahthes · May 19

SaintJohnHM wrote: »

NoSoup wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Subclassing could never be fun for everyone because not everyone is into theorycrafting. Just the thought of having to do that kills my desire to play at all.

Then just stick with your pure class. Problem solved. EZ.

If only that were possible.

But as @tomofhyrule pointed out, skills are being nerfed which results in pure classes being 25% behind where we currently are.

The sorc tears are a bit over the top, the class was overperforming for ages and should have been nerfed down a while ago. None of the sorc nerfs are that over the top and the class is still going to be very strong next patch even without subclassing on it.

Wrong. There will be no advantage to playing a pure class in group PVE content, especially not the sorc, performance is much lower than multiclasses. I've also heard people say super dumb stuff like "sorcs shouldn't have a shield that heals, let them waste bar space with pets" while every other class has multiple skills with two abilities (arc dmg beam and shield, etc).

But the people complaining the most in the quote string about sorcs don't do any group content at a level where it matters.

NoSoup · May 19

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

NoSoup wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Subclassing could never be fun for everyone because not everyone is into theorycrafting. Just the thought of having to do that kills my desire to play at all.

Then just stick with your pure class. Problem solved. EZ.

If only that were possible.

But as @tomofhyrule pointed out, skills are being nerfed which results in pure classes being 25% behind where we currently are.

The sorc tears are a bit over the top, the class was overperforming for ages and should have been nerfed down a while ago. None of the sorc nerfs are that over the top and the class is still going to be very strong next patch even without subclassing on it.

The sorc tears are indeed not over the top, their class is gutted next patch with subclassing.

The pets being double bar still is a violation of human rights at this point in the game

The fact that all of your important skills are split between all 3 skill lines means you kinda always lose something if you subclass too. Nightblade assassination for example gives you access to basically the entire nightblade offensive kit in 1 skill line, or restoring light on Templar which basically gives you the entire defensive kit of Templar in 1 skill line.

The skill lines need to be balanced against each other and currently they are VERY far from it

This is quite a myopic view. The NB assination tree might be stacked with offensive skills but you're lacking major brutality and savagery which you need to max out the damage from that tree. To get both, you'll either need to keep both other trees, use potions (expensive for 100% uptime), oakensoul (constrains your skill choices) swap out gear sets or lose a skill slot on each bar.

SilverBride · May 19

NoSoup wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Subclassing could never be fun for everyone because not everyone is into theorycrafting. Just the thought of having to do that kills my desire to play at all.

Then just stick with your pure class. Problem solved. EZ.

If only that were possible.

But as @tomofhyrule pointed out, skills are being nerfed which results in pure classes being 25% behind where we currently are.

The sorc tears are a bit over the top, the class was overperforming for ages and should have been nerfed down a while ago. None of the sorc nerfs are that over the top and the class is still going to be very strong next patch even without subclassing on it.

My no pet Sorcerer says otherwise.

NoSoup · May 19

SilverBride wrote: »

NoSoup wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Subclassing could never be fun for everyone because not everyone is into theorycrafting. Just the thought of having to do that kills my desire to play at all.

Then just stick with your pure class. Problem solved. EZ.

If only that were possible.

But as @tomofhyrule pointed out, skills are being nerfed which results in pure classes being 25% behind where we currently are.

The sorc tears are a bit over the top, the class was overperforming for ages and should have been nerfed down a while ago. None of the sorc nerfs are that over the top and the class is still going to be very strong next patch even without subclassing on it.

My no pet Sorcerer says otherwise.

Why? Because you're losing a massively overpowered heal on a shield? The closest skill to harden ward would be the arcanist's gibbering shield which requires an ultimate. Hardly seems "class breaking". If anything you're getting stronger by being able to have crystal weapons only slotted on bar but getting the benefit on both.

SilverBride · May 19

NoSoup wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

My no pet Sorcerer says otherwise.

Why? Because you're losing a massively overpowered heal on a shield? The closest skill to harden ward would be the arcanist's gibbering shield which requires an ultimate. Hardly seems "class breaking". If anything you're getting stronger by being able to have crystal weapons only slotted on bar but getting the benefit on both.

Hardened Ward is not massively overpowered, nor will my Sorcerer be stronger without it.

No class should have to give up anything for subclassing. It's by far the worst change I have seen in the 11 years this game has been around.

NoSoup · May 19

SilverBride wrote: »

NoSoup wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

My no pet Sorcerer says otherwise.

Why? Because you're losing a massively overpowered heal on a shield? The closest skill to harden ward would be the arcanist's gibbering shield which requires an ultimate. Hardly seems "class breaking". If anything you're getting stronger by being able to have crystal weapons only slotted on bar but getting the benefit on both.

Hardened Ward is not massively overpowered, nor will my Sorcerer be stronger without it.

No class should have to give up anything for subclassing. It's by far the worst change I have seen in the 11 years this game has been around.

Worst change in 11 years a big stretch. Haste, Blinding Light, Breath of Life & Implosion would all register as far bigger changes to how people had to adapt their playstyles to suit the change.

It's very hard to argu that Hardened Ward isn't overperforming. The only players actively defending it are the ones using it as a crutch. You're literally getting to abilities for the price of one, where all other classes would have to slot a shield, and a heal. I honestly think this is a good and fair change, Pet builds are already punished by having to double up skills on both bars so it's fair they get a heal and shield in one ability. But non-pet sorcs should have the same fundamentals as everyone. 2 abilities, 2 skill slots.

cuddles_with_wroble · May 20

NoSoup wrote: »

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

NoSoup wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Subclassing could never be fun for everyone because not everyone is into theorycrafting. Just the thought of having to do that kills my desire to play at all.

Then just stick with your pure class. Problem solved. EZ.

If only that were possible.

But as @tomofhyrule pointed out, skills are being nerfed which results in pure classes being 25% behind where we currently are.

The sorc tears are a bit over the top, the class was overperforming for ages and should have been nerfed down a while ago. None of the sorc nerfs are that over the top and the class is still going to be very strong next patch even without subclassing on it.

The sorc tears are indeed not over the top, their class is gutted next patch with subclassing.

The pets being double bar still is a violation of human rights at this point in the game

The fact that all of your important skills are split between all 3 skill lines means you kinda always lose something if you subclass too. Nightblade assassination for example gives you access to basically the entire nightblade offensive kit in 1 skill line, or restoring light on Templar which basically gives you the entire defensive kit of Templar in 1 skill line.

The skill lines need to be balanced against each other and currently they are VERY far from it

This is quite a myopic view. The NB assination tree might be stacked with offensive skills but you're lacking major brutality and savagery which you need to max out the damage from that tree. To get both, you'll either need to keep both other trees, use potions (expensive for 100% uptime), oakensoul (constrains your skill choices) swap out gear sets or lose a skill slot on each bar.

In pve most classes use Crit and brutality pots anyway so this is fine imo but I agree every class should have access to those buffs on more useful skills