Subclassing worse than U35?

SaintJohnHM

I'm starting to hear many folks grumble about subclassing like many did before the U35 mass exodus of vet HM trial players, and I don't think zos is going to really listen to the feedback. "Subclassing" is grossly unbalanced and is destroying the class identity many have spent years investing in. Maybe they'll get enough new players to not have to worry about losing a few trial players, so zos probably isn't worried about what we think, but it'd be nice if they paused this and gave it a big re-think before releasing it. Many friends left ESO after U35, it's going to be sad to lose a bunch more to this release.

Dalsinthus

My raid and dungeon groups are heavily split on this. The people that are just playing to raid and aren't interested in story, lore, characters, etc. are all in for getting new trifectas and perfectas with multi class characters. To them, more power is a good thing even if it takes playing Frankenstein's monster to get there. They are excited for what's coming.

The rest of us, those who engage in all the game's systems, are not happy about the change and are thinking about quitting or at the very least really lowering the time we spend playing. I'm in this later group.

I also have a few causals in my circle that are excited for the flexibility to build hybrid characters for role playing reasons.

Overall it's roughly a 50-50 split, but our group is going to shrink after this goes live as some will quit.

There were some parallels with Update 35. In that case there was more consensus that the changes were bad, but we did lose a similar number of people as appears to be happening now.

I predict when the sugar high of this changes is over, when the novelty fades, it will be viewed negatively by most people. But maybe I'm just projecting my views on the change. Time will tell.

Vonnegut2506

SaintJohnHM wrote: »

I'm starting to hear many folks grumble about subclassing like many did before the U35 mass exodus of vet HM trial players, and I don't think zos is going to really listen to the feedback. "Subclassing" is grossly unbalanced and is destroying the class identity many have spent years investing in. Maybe they'll get enough new players to not have to worry about losing a few trial players, so zos probably isn't worried about what we think, but it'd be nice if they paused this and gave it a big re-think before releasing it. Many friends left ESO after U35, it's going to be sad to lose a bunch more to this release.

No, nothing will ever be worse than U35 if only for the complete tone-deaf reaction by ZOS on the PTS forum during the whole time.

Zyaneth_Bal

There’s nothing left for players other than leave or accept, cope and watch zos kill the game with each new update. They never have and never will listen to any feedback

Zyaneth_Bal

Watch players’ genuine and justified concern be called a “knee-jerk reaction” again

MashmalloMan

Nope, but really depends where you look. From my experience, I'm seeing a lot of echo chambers in places like YouTube or streams. Basically, negativity breeds negativity, positivity does the opposite.

It's unfortunate because I am excited for the system with some necessary tinkering, but some of the people I previously enjoyed watching have spent literally hours just complaining about how this will kill the game. I tuned into 1 streamer 2-3 times across the past few days and I swear every time, they had something to complain about, acting like the sky was falling, the end was near, this is it.. then you look at their chat and the same 3-4 people are all hyping him up in the same way. I won't name names here, but it's unbearable. If you dislike it that much, play a different game, this is going live like it or not. Be a part of the solution or get out of the way? Provide feedback that helps. All they suggested was to tell zos you will quit and that this shouldn't go live.

Then I go to a more level headed streamer who tends to be more positive like Skinny and you actually get constructive criticism, debates, good, bad, etc. A much more even bag that seems to represent what I imagine most end game players actually think. For casuals, which make up the majority of the player base, they will absolutely love this as it much better represents the freedom of choice this game is trying to offer, that pairs well with previous ES titles.

sarahthes

A power increase isn't going to be as devastating as U35 was. There's a number of people in endgame who will enjoy seeing how much they can push trials to breaking. A number of players who will be able to accomplish things they couldn't before. I don't think it will be as bad as U35 for that reason. A power squish like U35 is always going to be received more poorly than a power bump.

That said, I also have my concerns. I'm not looking forward to seeing everyone have to play arcbladecro or arcplarcro. So many endgame players hate playing arcanist.

Zyaneth_Bal

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Nope, but really depends where you look. From my experience, I'm seeing a lot of echo chambers in places like YouTube or streams. Basically, negativity breeds negativity, positivity does the opposite.

It's unfortunate because I am excited for the system with some necessary tinkering, but some of the people I previously enjoyed watching have spent literally hours just complaining about how this will kill the game. I tuned into 1 streamer 2-3 times across the past few days and I swear every time, they had something to complain about, acting like the sky was falling, the end was near, this is it.. then you look at their chat and the same 3-4 people are all hyping him up in the same way. I won't name names here, but it's unbearable. If you dislike it that much, play a different game, this is going live like it or not. Be a part of the solution or get out of the way? Provide feedback that helps. All they suggested was to tell zos you will quit and that this shouldn't go live.

Then I go to a more level headed streamer who tends to be more positive like Skinny and you actually get constructive criticism, debates, good, bad, etc. A much more even bag that seems to represent what I imagine most end game players actually think. For casuals, which make up the majority of the player base, they will absolutely love this as it much better represents the freedom of choice this game is trying to offer, that pairs well with previous ES titles.

This is a venting thread. Shared my concerns here if you are interested

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/discussion/676237/pts-update-46-feedback-thread-for-subclassing#latest

gorynych_88

sarahthes wrote: »

A power increase isn't going to be as devastating as U35 was

But the reduction for "pure" classes power will be huge so you couldn't play them as it was before and you will end with necesarry muticlassing these cadavers. It was already started with Hardened Ward, Piercing Cold etc, and it will bring more and more nerfes to all original skill lines obviously.

This chaotics "subclass idea" is the worst thing I ever saw in MMORPG games with my 20+ years experience of playing them. Game balance (especially PvP one nowadays) is broken enough and as always - instead of fixing at least smthng and listen to people that write alot of good ideas on forums they decided to just crush the last remnants of that shadow of balance. Not even speaking of class identity, lore etc

We returned to game like just 3-4 months ago (quited ~at the Greymoor start, played for some years before since Morrowind chapter) with some friends, and rn we start to see no point to play it again, but now completely it seems. If they won't stop this expermient.

Zyaneth_Bal

gorynych_88 wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

A power increase isn't going to be as devastating as U35 was

But the reduction for "pure" classes power will be huge so you couldn't play them as it was before and you will end with necesarry muticlassing these cadavers. It was already started with Hardened Ward, Piercing Cold etc, and it will bring more and more nerfes to all original skill lines obviously.

This chaotics "subclass idea" is the worst thing I ever saw in MMORPG games with my 20+ years experience of playing them. Game balance (especially PvP one nowadays) is broken enough and as always - instead of fixing at least smthng and listen to people that write alot of good ideas on forums they decided to just crush the last remnants of that shadow of balance. Not even speaking of class identity, lore etc

We returned to game like just 3-4 months ago (quited ~at the Greymoor start, played for some years before since Morrowind chapter) with some friends, and rn we start to see no point to play it again, but now completely it seems. If they won't stop this expermient.

Exactly, not to mention zos will start nerfing particular skills with no regard to original classes making them even less competitive if they still are.

Honestly sometimes it feels like over and over again I try to find a reason to play eso and zos try to make me leave.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

Is this player base allergic to having fun?

Zyaneth_Bal

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Is this player base allergic to having fun?

Idk mb you should try the game first

AlterBlika

I couldn't care less about "class identity", powercreep is what bothers me. If they really want subclassing to go live they need to smash every class hard or put some restrictions into the system. After all classes were balanced without subclassing in mind.

Nord_Raseri

The nerfs and changes to "pure" classes are not worth it. To my eyes.

Alaztor91

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Is this player base allergic to having fun?

What is funny about having Class X nerfed because one of its skill lines suddenly becomes OP when combined with a skill line from Class Y and Class Z, which most likely will also get nerfed since their skill lines were never designed to be combined in the first place.

Class XYZ inherent power boost due to mixed skill lines still allows it to pull ahead, but Class X, Class Y and Class Z? not so much. Should players who prefer to ''single class'' just be thrown under the bus?

gorynych_88

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Is this player base allergic to having fun?

You can play stmhng like that for example at WoW custom servers or any other "fun projects". We don't have alot of good and "serious" MMORPG projects these days to see one of the last remnants killed by own devs and keep calm. This idea is the peak of stupidity - change the whole core game mechanic to one game was never designed for and break all the gameplay for people that like TESO classmechs (by the way that classmechs became more useful not so long ago, I remember the days people should make boring DoT builds or another ones - of almost full weapon-lines ones, with near-complete refusing of unique own class abillitites usage at all and here we go drown even deeper, at least those earlier changes always had options to roll back and rebalance, and with this "multiclassing" there won't be any real one if it will be released like this and pure classes will be ruined in their main mechanics).

Dalsinthus

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Is this player base allergic to having fun?

I don't know, I was having a lot of fun with the class system that I've been playing for 10 years. I'm sad to see that go away and my skills get nerfed so that I can go poach abilities from other classes.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

There's always going to be a meta. Right now, vet trials are nothing but Arcanists. So now subclassing will also have a meta, or you can play your own way. I don't understand the panic around this at all. It's just another new meta, and one that supports like myself can thoroughly enjoy. I can take my main anywhere now.

Markytous

Nord_Raseri wrote: »

The nerfs and changes to "pure" classes are not worth it. To my eyes.

This. The direct consequences of subclassing on Skill Lines like Daedric Summoning make me sad. "If you don't want to summon pets, then you can scrap the Skill Line". This is just one example but Daedric Protection and Storm Atronach are cool abilities/effects so losing passives toward petless Sorcerers there just because a Necro might want Scamps and Clannfears is disappointing. Ramifications haven't even begun to come full circle yet and I'm seeing things like a pet cap on Necromancers being implemented due to the POTENTIAL for every player slotting Grave Lord as one of their Skill Lines. This is overhauling the entire game in ways I'm not convinced on. We shouldn't be losing class power just because of the opportunity to swap around Skill Lines. We shouldn't be having AoE (Arcanist Fatecarver) or pet/corpse caps being enforced because of this either.

J18696

Update 35 regressed groups to the point they had to reprog content learning new strategies update 46 is just dumping huge amounts of power into players laps good players will blow through content faster and more average players will most likely have more access to harder content pvp wise its feeling like it will just be spec bow simulator

Ragnarok0130

Vonnegut2506 wrote: »

SaintJohnHM wrote: »

I'm starting to hear many folks grumble about subclassing like many did before the U35 mass exodus of vet HM trial players, and I don't think zos is going to really listen to the feedback. "Subclassing" is grossly unbalanced and is destroying the class identity many have spent years investing in. Maybe they'll get enough new players to not have to worry about losing a few trial players, so zos probably isn't worried about what we think, but it'd be nice if they paused this and gave it a big re-think before releasing it. Many friends left ESO after U35, it's going to be sad to lose a bunch more to this release.

No, nothing will ever be worse than U35 if only for the complete tone-deaf reaction by ZOS on the PTS forum during the whole time.

Are you insinuating that ZoS isn't currently repeating the U35 tonedeafness because to me so far it looks like they are. I can see ZoS digging their heels in even more with subclassing than with U35 because they've made it a huge selling point for U46 for the casuals. Like U35 where they had the casuals believing they were "raising the floor" only to find the floor in the basement once U35 went live. Delaying subclassing for proper balancing or even *gasp* abandoning it due to its myriad of issues would make the devs look bad so IMO they will plow full speed ahead with subclassing without regard for balance thinking they can/will fix any problems that arise in future balance patches.

Reginald_leBlem

SaintJohnHM wrote: »

I'm starting to hear many folks grumble about subclassing like many did before the U35 mass exodus of vet HM trial players, and I don't think zos is going to really listen to the feedback. "Subclassing" is grossly unbalanced and is destroying the class identity many have spent years investing in. Maybe they'll get enough new players to not have to worry about losing a few trial players, so zos probably isn't worried about what we think, but it'd be nice if they paused this and gave it a big re-think before releasing it. Many friends left ESO after U35, it's going to be sad to lose a bunch more to this release.

I think what kills this patch for people will ultimately be when the nerf hammer comes into play.

I like the silliness and ridiculous power that comes with subclassing. I don't like how subclassing has a lot more power than the OG classes, and I don't like how dramatic the power creep is for this one change.

I think they have boxed themselves into a corner. They NEED to tone down the damage from subclassing so it is a less dramatic leap, and they somehow need to do it WITHOUT nerfing the og classes. And I don't see that they left themselves a way to do that.

alpha_synuclein

Reginald_leBlem wrote: »

I think they have boxed themselves into a corner. They NEED to tone down the damage from subclassing so it is a less dramatic leap, and they somehow need to do it WITHOUT nerfing the og classes. And I don't see that they left themselves a way to do that.

Moving fatecarver from herald to one of the other arca skill lines would be a good start.

madmufffin

Reginald_leBlem wrote: »

SaintJohnHM wrote: »

I'm starting to hear many folks grumble about subclassing like many did before the U35 mass exodus of vet HM trial players, and I don't think zos is going to really listen to the feedback. "Subclassing" is grossly unbalanced and is destroying the class identity many have spent years investing in. Maybe they'll get enough new players to not have to worry about losing a few trial players, so zos probably isn't worried about what we think, but it'd be nice if they paused this and gave it a big re-think before releasing it. Many friends left ESO after U35, it's going to be sad to lose a bunch more to this release.

I think what kills this patch for people will ultimately be when the nerf hammer comes into play.

I like the silliness and ridiculous power that comes with subclassing. I don't like how subclassing has a lot more power than the OG classes, and I don't like how dramatic the power creep is for this one change.

I think they have boxed themselves into a corner. They NEED to tone down the damage from subclassing so it is a less dramatic leap, and they somehow need to do it WITHOUT nerfing the og classes. And I don't see that they left themselves a way to do that.

GLS is literally the only problem skill. Without it you're looking at like a 8-10% damage increase.

Udrath

From a PvP perspective yes, but it is salvageable if they do a complete rework of every skill in the game from the ground up— unlikely to happen though.

Stx

This isn’t even in the same realm as update 35.

This is introducing a new baseline class system to the game. U35 was nerfing almost everything in the game for the sole purpose of raising the skill floor, but the changes didn’t even accomplish that goal. Then you had the random daggers of the jabs animation change.

BattleAxe

Here’s my hot take on the system coming is it perfect no. Will playing solely with ur chosen class skill lines make you weaker yes. However to say this breaks the game and ends class identity is a bit of a stretch. Look at one example. The dragon knight the quint essential dot class with sub classing I can theoretically drop my tank skill lines for necro grave lord and that dot class class identity now sky rockets making my dk that much stronger. Yes certain combinations of class skills together are gonna be broken such is the case with any game where there is a meta. I once doomed and gloomed over an update probably update 35 but here’s the thing I’ve lately kinda stepped back from playing eso as much as I used to with sub classing announcement I’ve gotten pretty excited about coming back and playing more heavily again.

One thing I’d like to see tho is some skills that have been removed from game like sea of flames should make a come back as a 3rd morph option on skills.

I think trade off for multi classing is actually kinda fair 2 skill points to class lines not associated with your base class is fine enough of a drawback.

Give this change a chance and maybe experiment with it and maybe you’ll find you can boost your favorite classes class identity further.

Urzigurumash

I totally agree @BattleAxe .

My class identity died when Hybridization turned StamDK into a MagDK. Maybe this can help us venomous claw it back.

madmufffin

This is a lot of anger started just because hardened ward doesn't heal anymore

BattleAxe

@Urzigurumash 100% I’d like to see devs add 3rd morph options to all class skills that way maybe we can even get back an old skill I loved from original iteration of dk sea of flames

gc0018

The tricky part is that subclass itself is a good idea. But the way of ZOS to achieve it... is really bad.
Current PTS feeling about subclass: Boring. Only fun for the first 1-2 days. Because there are only a few of combinations of skillines works well. Easily to get bored once you realize most of the combinations are just trash.