Subclassing worse than U35?

randconfig

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

There’s nothing left for players other than leave or accept, cope and watch zos kill the game with each new update. They never have and never will listen to any feedback

To be fair, I hope ZOS doesn't make changes just when I complain and post suggestions on the forums...

Instead, I hope that my feedback is carefully weighed, alongside the wants of the majority of the playerbase and what the actual in-game data says, when it comes to making changes to the game, as this is what will lead to a better game overall.

SaintJohnHM

randconfig wrote: »

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

There’s nothing left for players other than leave or accept, cope and watch zos kill the game with each new update. They never have and never will listen to any feedback

To be fair, I hope ZOS doesn't make changes just when I complain and post suggestions on the forums...

Instead, I hope that my feedback is carefully weighed, alongside the wants of the majority of the playerbase and what the actual in-game data says, when it comes to making changes to the game, as this is what will lead to a better game overall.

You can hope for whatever you want, but what you're going to get is a garbage new system that they clearly didn't think through that will make the game less fun for many players.

necro_the_crafter

SaintJohnHM wrote: »

You can hope for whatever you want, but what you're going to get is a garbage new system that they clearly didn't think through that will make the game less fun for many players.

What I mostly upset about is that, this system isnt really gonna create enough diversity to build a unique characters.
You still cant really build:
1. Cryomancer - not enough damaging frost abilities, frost stuff sucks for damage
2. Pyromancer - all of fire damage is mostly melee, and mostly in ardent flame skill line.
3. Lightning mage - no shock based burst, spammable.
And while some of those could be filled with scribing, wield soul, soul burst and contigensy, and maybe ele explosion, those are still inferior to class skills and dont have amazing visuals, espesialy fiery soul, wich feels like its a copy of flame staffs light attack.

But the one that even scribing cannot help in any way:
4. Conjurator - no flame/ice artonach, no summonable dremoras (wich were usually a master conjurator spells in other elder scrolls games)

Also, builds that you are able to make right now dont really fit thematicly, while they can synergise gameplaywise, visually its a complete mess.
A features that should go alongside systems like this:
1. Customisation of skills visuals.
2. Expanding scribing onto base skills as well, at least for damage type and resourse cost.

Then, and only then, it will at least partually resemble a freedom that other elder scrolls game have.

Joy_Division

SaintJohnHM wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

In my opinion, subclassing is one of the best systems they've ever released. But its going to be really badly balanced on launch. But now that it's here it's exciting and has a lot of potential.

I'm glad you dig it, there are many of though who see that multiclassing has ruined pure classing and the power creep will make a lot of content not as challengingly fun. It's the worst update I've seen, their weekly patches show they don't really know how to fix the problems they've created, and they're not listening to our concerns.

While I have reservations about sub-classing, I don't agree is the worst update. That quite a few people are looking foward to it, and quite a few don;t care if the end-game community create broken builds, tells us that the update will be received positively by a significant portion of the player base.

Update 35 was pretty widely panned by everyone because it was just a big fat nerf.

I also do think ZOS is listening to concerns. They've clearly heard the end-game complaints about Arcanist Beam. They did walk back on some of their initial nerfs to sorcerers and DKs. And, as much as people are complaining about "where are the massive changes?" the fact that we weren't just handed a massive nerf list - which is what I was legit expecting - tells me they probably considered doing something drastic, but in the end decided not to do so (which is also listening to a major concern). They may not be specifically addressing concerns that you hold in high priority, but to say they are not listening I do not think is true

I would agree they have done pretty much nothing to address the "pure" class concerns, and I get the disappointment there. Though I think that particular problem is not going to be an easy one to address; certainly not in a few weeks on the PTS. They are clearly going to have to do something to add/benefit people who do not sub-class. That strikes me as something they can and should work on for U47 goal. Now, I think they are just trying to make it so to try and limit potential power creep of sub-classing and trying to give us some viable build variety. I appreciate they are doing so without just swinging a wild nerf-hammer around, which has been typical of them. Looks like they want to see how this plays out on Live and move on with potential changes that come from actual Live gameplay experiences. They want to be patient. I'm OK with that.

zombievalen

I was hoping classes like the Warden could be DPS, and now we're clearly seeing Wardens with Sorc or any subclass hitting ~120k, and Arcanists with any subclass hitting ~170k.

I'm losing hope that this game will ever be somewhat balanced.

ZhuJiuyin

While I agree that ZOS is listening to people's concerns and making some good responses in this PTS, it is still far from enough, and a lot of feedback and even consensus among players did not appear in the patch notes.

Moreover, consumers are not obliged to be patient with a product that is not good enough. It is irresponsible to insist on putting it on live when you already know that subclassing will cause power creep and weaken the pure class. Even if they want to observe the actual interaction of live, we should also receive a developer notification to let us know that they are closely observing and will adjust as needed (for example, promise to make fine-tuning every one to two weeks until U47)

SaintJohnHM

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

While I agree that ZOS is listening to people's concerns and making some good responses in this PTS, it is still far from enough, and a lot of feedback and even consensus among players did not appear in the patch notes.

Moreover, consumers are not obliged to be patient with a product that is not good enough. It is irresponsible to insist on putting it on live when you already know that subclassing will cause power creep and weaken the pure class. Even if they want to observe the actual interaction of live, we should also receive a developer notification to let us know that they are closely observing and will adjust as needed (for example, promise to make fine-tuning every one to two weeks until U47)

Yep. The cheerleaders who don't see the problems think players will wait around for the devs to finally figure out what they're trying to do with the mess they've made by trying to force multiclassing without fully thinking it through and how it ruins much of the gameplay we currently enjoy. People in my guild are already stopping their subscription after the lack of updates in this week's patch. It's garbage and it seems so weird that they feel they need to force this on us without taking more time to get it right.

Maggusemm

what a pity, Saint John. I mean the new patch would exactly enable players like you or your guild to progess some trifecta which are Rockgrove or past for which in the past, damage, tank skillsets or strenght of healing were missing or all together.

There are a lot more opportunities and fine-tuning possible and power is increasing. Isnt this seen as something positive to make older content easier?

YandereGirlfriend

SaintJohnHM wrote: »

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

While I agree that ZOS is listening to people's concerns and making some good responses in this PTS, it is still far from enough, and a lot of feedback and even consensus among players did not appear in the patch notes.

Moreover, consumers are not obliged to be patient with a product that is not good enough. It is irresponsible to insist on putting it on live when you already know that subclassing will cause power creep and weaken the pure class. Even if they want to observe the actual interaction of live, we should also receive a developer notification to let us know that they are closely observing and will adjust as needed (for example, promise to make fine-tuning every one to two weeks until U47)

Yep. The cheerleaders who don't see the problems think players will wait around for the devs to finally figure out what they're trying to do with the mess they've made by trying to force multiclassing without fully thinking it through and how it ruins much of the gameplay we currently enjoy. People in my guild are already stopping their subscription after the lack of updates in this week's patch. It's garbage and it seems so weird that they feel they need to force this on us without taking more time to get it right.

On the other hand, I've heard from a bunch of lapsed ESO players that subclassing has them excited and that they are willing to give the game a second look because of it.

Will those players ultimately stick? Who knows. But there is at least as much excitement as there is doomsaying about the project.

SaintJohnHM

Maggusemm wrote: »

what a pity, Saint John. I mean the new patch would exactly enable players like you or your guild to progess some trifecta which are Rockgrove or past for which in the past, damage, tank skillsets or strenght of healing were missing or all together.

There are a lot more opportunities and fine-tuning possible and power is increasing. Isnt this seen as something positive to make older content easier?

it's not more fun for us to have content become boringly easy while ruining the classes we love to play, we already clear the HMs and trifectas, and we like doing it with a challenge. There are already normal and veteran modes, hard modes and trifectas should be more of a challenge for the folks who want them.

Maggusemm

I dont think that they will be boringly easy for you, when you didnt achieve 4 year old trifectas now. The power creep is not so strong.

SaintJohnHM

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

SaintJohnHM wrote: »

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

While I agree that ZOS is listening to people's concerns and making some good responses in this PTS, it is still far from enough, and a lot of feedback and even consensus among players did not appear in the patch notes.

Moreover, consumers are not obliged to be patient with a product that is not good enough. It is irresponsible to insist on putting it on live when you already know that subclassing will cause power creep and weaken the pure class. Even if they want to observe the actual interaction of live, we should also receive a developer notification to let us know that they are closely observing and will adjust as needed (for example, promise to make fine-tuning every one to two weeks until U47)

Yep. The cheerleaders who don't see the problems think players will wait around for the devs to finally figure out what they're trying to do with the mess they've made by trying to force multiclassing without fully thinking it through and how it ruins much of the gameplay we currently enjoy. People in my guild are already stopping their subscription after the lack of updates in this week's patch. It's garbage and it seems so weird that they feel they need to force this on us without taking more time to get it right.

On the other hand, I've heard from a bunch of lapsed ESO players that subclassing has them excited and that they are willing to give the game a second look because of it.

Will those players ultimately stick? Who knows. But there is at least as much excitement as there is doomsaying about the project.

Yeah, I guess they're willing to lose many of us in hopes of getting those other players back. It seems like a bad calculation to me when they could have made multiclassing work in a way that doesn't ruin the game for many players and still been able to get those other players back.

SaintJohnHM

Maggusemm wrote: »

I dont think that they will be boringly easy for you, when you didnt achieve 4 year old trifectas now. The power creep is not so strong.

Wrong. The power creep of the arcanist release already made much of the current content boring by skipping past mechs, many of the HMs and trifectas are not as fun now. The multiclassing debacle will make the content even easier and less fun.

Maggusemm

thats normal that older content is easier. I mean the average player today wouldnt make a TTT with the damage available at that time.

Like you and your guild were not able to clear the past Rockgrove trifectas even with Arcanist. That doesnt mean your guild is bad, but its not one of the top percents, which also doesnt matter. My point is that harder content is made available to a broader player base while the newer content is still challenging for the top players and thats the normal cause of events for games. It will be still hard to get those 4 year old achievements.

tomofhyrule

Maggusemm wrote: »

what a pity, Saint John. I mean the new patch would exactly enable players like you or your guild to progess some trifecta which are Rockgrove or past for which in the past, damage, tank skillsets or strenght of healing were missing or all together.

There are a lot more opportunities and fine-tuning possible and power is increasing. Isnt this seen as something positive to make older content easier?

I feel like a lot of people have a misconception here that Subclassing will result in a net DPS increase, which will allow players who weren't at HM level to finally get it.

That's not how it works.

Subclassing is severely increasing the DPS of the players who know how to min-max. Your average Joe, who picks skills because "ooh, pretty!", is not going to be planning which skill lines to slot and which to cut. As such, they're really not going to see a DPS increase because they're not going for one. More likely, they'll see a DPS loss because they're dropping skill lines that give them passives they don't realize they depend on (because they think it's totally unimportant if they don't slot a skill from that line, right?) and are picking up something that doesn't mesh with their build. Also, the skill lines are being nerfed because of potential line combos, so if you don't have both of the comboed lines you'll still get handed a nerf because other people are exploiting those combos.

Even if you give said average Joe a build, that doesn't mean that they'll use it properly. I've literally seen two players with the exact same Oakensorc build (same attributes, same skills, same everything) and one does literally double the DPS of the other because he knows the timing to use the skills and how to keep his DoTs up, while the other thinks "just hold down left-click and sometimes push one of the other buttons."

All this means is that the top 1% is going to do so much more than they can before, while the average player gets no increase (or likely a backslide). Subclassing, as it is on PTS currently, is really only serving to widen the gap between the sweaty players and the casuals, and it's easy to see how this is not going to work out for either group - the sweaty players will be bored if the content they play gets easier, and the casuals will be frustrated that the requirements for getting into harder content went up and their output didn't really have that big of an effect.

And of course, this isn't assuming that we'll see a massive sledgehammer nerf to everything in U47 or U48 once the dev team has time to see how this plays out on live. And then we can say it looks very much like U35 when it ends up being nerf after nerf after nerf to "rein in the power creep."

SaintJohnHM

Maggusemm wrote: »

thats normal that older content is easier. I mean the average player today wouldnt make a TTT with the damage available at that time.

Like you and your guild were not able to clear the past Rockgrove trifectas even with Arcanist. That doesnt mean your guild is bad, but its not one of the top percents, which also doesnt matter. My point is that harder content is made available to a broader player base while the newer content is still challenging for the top players and thats the normal cause of events for games. It will be still hard to get those 4 year old achievements.

Wrong again. My guild hasn't tried RG trifecta yet, we're almost done with Swash and were planning on starting another trifecta soon, but now with this garbage update, we're not sure what to do.

Maggusemm

yes, didnt even tried. And dont look only on dummy parses going up, look also on

1. Sustain nerf for Arcanist
2. Target cap nerf for Arcanist - limit of 6
3. Ultimate nerf for healers and whole group
4. Support nerf restricting some abilities to 6 players instead of 12.

So the assumption that there is an extraordinary power creep will prove wrong in reality because all those factors will need to be handled and limit the power creep.

Zyaneth_Bal

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Subclassing as an idea is largely cool. But it'll also likely take several more Updates to get sorted out.

Which is WAY different than U35 which was basically, "Hey guys, want some nerfs...".

Tbh I’m afraid zos don’t have as long as several updates. If this disaster remains unattended for that long it might be too late.
The game lost a lot of players with U35 and in light of U46 players are already leaving and it’s not even out yet.

SaintJohnHM

Maggusemm wrote: »

yes, didnt even tried. And dont look only on dummy parses going up, look also on

1. Sustain nerf for Arcanist
2. Target cap nerf for Arcanist - limit of 6
3. Ultimate nerf for healers and whole group
4. Support nerf restricting some abilities to 6 players instead of 12.

So the assumption that there is an extraordinary power creep will prove wrong in reality because all those factors will need to be handled and limit the power creep.

Wrong again. Most of those changes won't pull back the power creep, but it will make it so Pearls and Pillagers are less fun for healers, etc. We tested on the PTS and the power creep will definitely have us skipping mechs.

BattleAxe

SaintJohnHM wrote: »

Maggusemm wrote: »

what a pity, Saint John. I mean the new patch would exactly enable players like you or your guild to progess some trifecta which are Rockgrove or past for which in the past, damage, tank skillsets or strenght of healing were missing or all together.

There are a lot more opportunities and fine-tuning possible and power is increasing. Isnt this seen as something positive to make older content easier?

it's not more fun for us to have content become boringly easy while ruining the classes we love to play, we already clear the HMs and trifectas, and we like doing it with a challenge. There are already normal and veteran modes, hard modes and trifectas should be more of a challenge for the folks who want them.

More of a challenge create your own challenge for these trials make them more difficult such as no gear run of trial or some other creative way to make a trial more challenging. We the players create majority of problems with the game with metas and finding other broken interactions within the game so devs respond by nerfing said broken interactions and metas.

SaintJohnHM

BattleAxe wrote: »

SaintJohnHM wrote: »

Maggusemm wrote: »

what a pity, Saint John. I mean the new patch would exactly enable players like you or your guild to progess some trifecta which are Rockgrove or past for which in the past, damage, tank skillsets or strenght of healing were missing or all together.

There are a lot more opportunities and fine-tuning possible and power is increasing. Isnt this seen as something positive to make older content easier?

it's not more fun for us to have content become boringly easy while ruining the classes we love to play, we already clear the HMs and trifectas, and we like doing it with a challenge. There are already normal and veteran modes, hard modes and trifectas should be more of a challenge for the folks who want them.

More of a challenge create your own challenge for these trials make them more difficult such as no gear run of trial or some other creative way to make a trial more challenging. We the players create majority of problems with the game with metas and finding other broken interactions within the game so devs respond by nerfing said broken interactions and metas.

Wrong. I just want to have fun with the system the game gives me and has given me the past few years, I don't always have to make up my own mini-game within ESO and convince a few dozen others to commit to the same rules. That would obviously be less fun.

Maggusemm

SaintJohnHM wrote: »

Maggusemm wrote: »

yes, didnt even tried. And dont look only on dummy parses going up, look also on

1. Sustain nerf for Arcanist
2. Target cap nerf for Arcanist - limit of 6
3. Ultimate nerf for healers and whole group
4. Support nerf restricting some abilities to 6 players instead of 12.

So the assumption that there is an extraordinary power creep will prove wrong in reality because all those factors will need to be handled and limit the power creep.

Wrong again. Most of those changes won't pull back the power creep, but it will make it so Pearls and Pillagers are less fun for healers, etc. We tested on the PTS and the power creep will definitely have us skipping mechs.

I would really like to help to increase your joy playing and strengthen the argument that this is possible for older content. The not so talented players would get TTT some years after it went out because players could skip mechanics. I assume that you can skip some mechanics for older content and thats ok. Its still not easy for your group, but you will have a chance to get titles which groups with a certain level of talent and time to commit to the game would else never get.

You dont skip mechanics for the newest trial, can you confirm this?

If there is no development and no improvements some groups will always fail on some hardmodes or trifecta, so the older trial content gets more accesible. I think that very few players would find this unfair.

SaintJohnHM

Maggusemm wrote: »

SaintJohnHM wrote: »

Maggusemm wrote: »

yes, didnt even tried. And dont look only on dummy parses going up, look also on

1. Sustain nerf for Arcanist
2. Target cap nerf for Arcanist - limit of 6
3. Ultimate nerf for healers and whole group
4. Support nerf restricting some abilities to 6 players instead of 12.

So the assumption that there is an extraordinary power creep will prove wrong in reality because all those factors will need to be handled and limit the power creep.

Wrong again. Most of those changes won't pull back the power creep, but it will make it so Pearls and Pillagers are less fun for healers, etc. We tested on the PTS and the power creep will definitely have us skipping mechs.

I would really like to help to increase your joy playing and strengthen the argument that this is possible for older content. The not so talented players would get TTT some years after it went out because players could skip mechanics. I assume that you can skip some mechanics for older content and thats ok. Its still not easy for your group, but you will have a chance to get titles which group with a certain level of talent and time to commit to the game would else never get.

You dont skip mechanics for the newest trial, can you confirm this?

I can confirm mechs in DLC dungeon HMs and trifectas, even the trickier ones, are much more trivial since arcanist release, and even more trivial and less fun with multiclass power surge. Dungeon HMs are easier since CA and SWR, the power surge in U46 is going to make them all even less fun. I appreciate that you want to make the game more fun, or at least cheerlead and convince me the game will be fun, but reality is unfortunately not that easy to sway.

Maggusemm

you are right with the dungeons. When I read that you have completed everything there, then you are a very strong dungeon player. However, there are also less talented players. Yesterday I tried (not the most talented player) graven deep hm and did like 70% of the damage and we failed due to overwhelming adds at 75% etc. with a random group of high cp players.

So there are players who need this power creep. I would assume that the power is also needed for the newest trials.

SaintJohnHM

Maggusemm wrote: »

you are right with the dungeons. When I read that you have completed everything there, then you are a very strong dungeon player. However, there are also less talented players. Yesterday I tried (not the most talented player) graven deep hm and did like 70% of the damage and we failed due to overwhelming adds at 75% etc. with a random group of high cp players.

So there are players who need this power creep. I would assume that the power is also needed for the newest trials.

Why do they need the power surge? There are already normal level and veteran level dungeons for folks who don't have the time/energy/passion/etc to pursue more challenging content, it's not fun if HMs and trifectas are just as easy.

Zyaneth_Bal

BattleAxe wrote: »

SaintJohnHM wrote: »

Maggusemm wrote: »

what a pity, Saint John. I mean the new patch would exactly enable players like you or your guild to progess some trifecta which are Rockgrove or past for which in the past, damage, tank skillsets or strenght of healing were missing or all together.

There are a lot more opportunities and fine-tuning possible and power is increasing. Isnt this seen as something positive to make older content easier?

it's not more fun for us to have content become boringly easy while ruining the classes we love to play, we already clear the HMs and trifectas, and we like doing it with a challenge. There are already normal and veteran modes, hard modes and trifectas should be more of a challenge for the folks who want them.

More of a challenge create your own challenge for these trials make them more difficult such as no gear run of trial or some other creative way to make a trial more challenging. We the players create majority of problems with the game with metas and finding other broken interactions within the game so devs respond by nerfing said broken interactions and metas.

Your point of view is plain wrong. In short players “finding metas” and otherwise becoming stronger is one of the core design principles of the mmorpg genre.

BattleAxe

SaintJohnHM wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

SaintJohnHM wrote: »

Maggusemm wrote: »

what a pity, Saint John. I mean the new patch would exactly enable players like you or your guild to progess some trifecta which are Rockgrove or past for which in the past, damage, tank skillsets or strenght of healing were missing or all together.

There are a lot more opportunities and fine-tuning possible and power is increasing. Isnt this seen as something positive to make older content easier?

it's not more fun for us to have content become boringly easy while ruining the classes we love to play, we already clear the HMs and trifectas, and we like doing it with a challenge. There are already normal and veteran modes, hard modes and trifectas should be more of a challenge for the folks who want them.

More of a challenge create your own challenge for these trials make them more difficult such as no gear run of trial or some other creative way to make a trial more challenging. We the players create majority of problems with the game with metas and finding other broken interactions within the game so devs respond by nerfing said broken interactions and metas.

Wrong. I just want to have fun with the system the game gives me and has given me the past few years, I don't always have to make up my own mini-game within ESO and convince a few dozen others to commit to the same rules. That would obviously be less fun.

Can’t have fun with the system being introduced with this latest update?

SaintJohnHM

BattleAxe wrote: »

SaintJohnHM wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

SaintJohnHM wrote: »

Maggusemm wrote: »

what a pity, Saint John. I mean the new patch would exactly enable players like you or your guild to progess some trifecta which are Rockgrove or past for which in the past, damage, tank skillsets or strenght of healing were missing or all together.

There are a lot more opportunities and fine-tuning possible and power is increasing. Isnt this seen as something positive to make older content easier?

it's not more fun for us to have content become boringly easy while ruining the classes we love to play, we already clear the HMs and trifectas, and we like doing it with a challenge. There are already normal and veteran modes, hard modes and trifectas should be more of a challenge for the folks who want them.

More of a challenge create your own challenge for these trials make them more difficult such as no gear run of trial or some other creative way to make a trial more challenging. We the players create majority of problems with the game with metas and finding other broken interactions within the game so devs respond by nerfing said broken interactions and metas.

Wrong. I just want to have fun with the system the game gives me and has given me the past few years, I don't always have to make up my own mini-game within ESO and convince a few dozen others to commit to the same rules. That would obviously be less fun.

Can’t have fun with the system being introduced with this latest update?

The game won't be fun for those of us who like well-structured challenging content, HM and trifecta content will not be as fun when it's too easy, and an extreme multiclassing meta also removes our character identities we've built on for years.

BattleAxe

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

SaintJohnHM wrote: »

Maggusemm wrote: »

what a pity, Saint John. I mean the new patch would exactly enable players like you or your guild to progess some trifecta which are Rockgrove or past for which in the past, damage, tank skillsets or strenght of healing were missing or all together.

There are a lot more opportunities and fine-tuning possible and power is increasing. Isnt this seen as something positive to make older content easier?

it's not more fun for us to have content become boringly easy while ruining the classes we love to play, we already clear the HMs and trifectas, and we like doing it with a challenge. There are already normal and veteran modes, hard modes and trifectas should be more of a challenge for the folks who want them.

More of a challenge create your own challenge for these trials make them more difficult such as no gear run of trial or some other creative way to make a trial more challenging. We the players create majority of problems with the game with metas and finding other broken interactions within the game so devs respond by nerfing said broken interactions and metas.

Your point of view is plain wrong. In short players “finding metas” and otherwise becoming stronger is one of the core design principles of the mmorpg genre.

How is my point of view wrong just because we have different points of view? Do you have fun playing the game the way you want to play it? Do I have fun playing the way I want to play? Yes end goal of any rpg regardless if it’s an mmo or not is to get stronger however above that at the core of it all it is a game and a game is suppose to be objectively fun to the individual player to tell someone else only your way of playing is fun is wrong because not everyone is the same and everyone’s definition of what’s fun for them is different. It is as you said an mmo at its core and the devs have to try to balance a game around everyone to give everyone a chance at having fun in their way are all changes gonna be favorable to everyone absolutely not because if they were the game would be nigh unplayable.

Dino-Jr

I am going to assume the newer hm trial and dungeon content they release next couple years will be tuned for the insane stuff sub classing allows. Most likely outcome is having to wait for new stuff to get released for challenging content, however long that takes...

Its obvious they are nerfing class lines out right based on how they are used or how popular they expect them to be when subclassed.

The game badly needs a way for subclassed lines to be tweaked downward when not used by the main class. Its obvious.

Flat increases of main class builds to subclass level seems unrealistic and not a controllable idea. The subclass options and builds are so strong zos shouldnt worry for a second about debuffed versions of skill lines being less attractive to use. Itll still end up in play since characters werent built for 2-3 dps or tank lines being available.