Nightblade Tanks (no Tanks stand still)

TheGreatBlackBear · August 2022

p4l4mu7 wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

vAA - Every boss is a stack and burn and Tank can stand still.
vHRC - Every boss is a stack and burn and Tank can stand still.
vSO - Every boss is a stack and burn and Tank can stand still
vMoL - With exception of moving when in a negate on Twins, Tank can stand still
vHoF - Every boss can be held still for Tank to heal
vAS - Tank can stand still on all fights
vCR - Will have to move during Kite but doesn't happen that often.
vSS - Tank can stand still on all fights
vKA - Tank can stand still on all fights
vRG - Tank can stand still to heal on all fights
vDSR - Can stand still for majority of time, but have to move for Tank Swap and AoEs on Twins, Cone for Reef Guardian, and Winter Storm for Taleria. All 3 situations will have a healer right there on you.

vRG hardmode, you are moving 80% of the time on Bahsei
vSS hardmode, you are moving beneath Yolnahkriin to chain atronachs while you are actively taking a massive fire damage
vCR kite happens way often then you think
these are some examples from main tank perspective and when you are an offtank you are moving on majority of these fights.

Dark cloak tooltip says you get more healing if you stand still, so don't picture "moving" as running from one side to another, even if you take one tiniest step towards any direction it is count as moving. Picture youself playing without WASD keys, how many of the latest contents you can play without putting your hand on WASD

Out of all the examples you gave only Bahsei is valid. You are not moving actively while under Yoln. You chain and sit. You also mit the fire aura with major evasion and guard from your healer. In cloudrest why are you cloaking while kiting? Kiting is by definition avoiding the aoe. You're not taking damage.

paulsimonps · August 2022

Dagobertfuk wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

vAA - Every boss is a stack and burn and Tank can stand still.
vHRC - Every boss is a stack and burn and Tank can stand still.
vSO - Every boss is a stack and burn and Tank can stand still
vMoL - With exception of moving when in a negate on Twins, Tank can stand still
vHoF - Every boss can be held still for Tank to heal
vAS - Tank can stand still on all fights
vCR - Will have to move during Kite but doesn't happen that often.
vSS - Tank can stand still on all fights
vKA - Tank can stand still on all fights
vRG - Tank can stand still to heal on all fights
vDSR - Can stand still for majority of time, but have to move for Tank Swap and AoEs on Twins, Cone for Reef Guardian, and Winter Storm for Taleria. All 3 situations will have a healer right there on you.

Not everyone of us is a pve bot.

Well the change was specifically made for it to not be as good in PvP but good for PvE Tanks.

p4l4mu7 wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

vAA - Every boss is a stack and burn and Tank can stand still.
vHRC - Every boss is a stack and burn and Tank can stand still.
vSO - Every boss is a stack and burn and Tank can stand still
vMoL - With exception of moving when in a negate on Twins, Tank can stand still
vHoF - Every boss can be held still for Tank to heal
vAS - Tank can stand still on all fights
vCR - Will have to move during Kite but doesn't happen that often.
vSS - Tank can stand still on all fights
vKA - Tank can stand still on all fights
vRG - Tank can stand still to heal on all fights
vDSR - Can stand still for majority of time, but have to move for Tank Swap and AoEs on Twins, Cone for Reef Guardian, and Winter Storm for Taleria. All 3 situations will have a healer right there on you.

vRG hardmode, you are moving 80% of the time on Bahsei
vSS hardmode, you are moving beneath Yolnahkriin to chain atronachs while you are actively taking a massive fire damage
vCR kite happens way often then you think
these are some examples from main tank perspective and when you are an offtank you are moving on majority of these fights.

Dark cloak tooltip says you get more healing if you stand still, so don't picture "moving" as running from one side to another, even if you take one tiniest step towards any direction it is count as moving. Picture youself playing without WASD keys, how many of the latest contents you can play without putting your hand on WASD

You do not have to self heal every second of every fight, its not the only heal they have access to either and its not the only way to mitigate damage taken. And with the wording if you use it while standing still it will be the stronger version and if you start moving it will be lower, but if you stop moving again it will come back to stronger. Very similar to one of the Templar heals, and that one is moving back to a specific location even. Also on Yolna, you are not just guarded but you also have a pocket healer, and you are standing still while you are under him, and then you dodge roll out after you are done.

And some people could do with a bit of less moving while playing, like some of the DPS's that are constantly moving side to side when they are suppose to be stacked in their lanes. Makes it harder for all their friends and healers. And yes I know I mentioned DPS and not Tanks there, but for 90+% of content Tanks do not have to do a lot of movement, and for 99% of the content you do move in you don't have to have super strong heal from yourself while you do it.

p4l4mu7 · August 2022

This change to shadow cloak alone will kill nb tanking in pve, there is not single a scenario where you can stand still as a tank, healing should scale when you block rather than when you stand still.

This is a meaningless restriction with too many points of failure.
- If you take a single step to chain something you lose healing buff
- An add gets in between you and boss, slightly pushes you or the boss, repositioning means you lose healing buff
- Boss hits you with a heavy attack, it pushes you back, you moved you lose healing buff
- You dodge rolled a heavy attack but boss still has damage over time on you, you moved you lose healing buff but dots are still ticking on you.

There are so many scenarios where you have to move, it is not only tied to mechanics, just imagine yourself playing with one hand on mouse and the other one with a coffee cup, you can't play without moving. And even if you could is it fun to play the game standing still and holding block.

Jazraena · August 2022

p4l4mu7 wrote: »

A lof of you are thinking about mechanics when we talk about standing still,

But this is a meaningless restriction that has huge window to apply in any given point.
- You have to chain something but it is out of range, you move two steps you lost healing buff
- An add gets in between you and boss, so boss moves, you have to reposition, you move two steps you lost healing buff
- Boss hits you with a heavy attack, it pushes you back, you moved you lost healing buff
- You dodge rolled a heavy attack but boss still has damage over time on you, you moved you lost healing buff but dots are still ticking on you.

There are so many scenarios where you have to move, it is not only tied to mechanics, just imagine yourself playing with one hand on mouse and the other one with a coffee cup, you can't play without moving. And even if you could is it fun to play the game standing still and holding block.

This tbh. It's not like you need to run around the room all the time, but subtle movement happens, and I'm not really talking trials here either. It's just a pointless hassle to add to a skill that wasn't overperforming.

MashmalloMan · August 2022

I could care less if you can stand still in most trial encounters. It's an anti-fun mechanic in a fast paced game, it's a dull idea and should of never been implemented in the way it was.

Did a single person in the Dark Cloak discussions suggest this?

Just another example of ZOS thinking they know better, going against the community just to be different, to claim intellectual ownership of a change. It's tiresome.

Whip now costs mag/stam instead of the highest resource. 8 years.

They act like they answered Stam DK's prayers..

code65536 · August 2022

For PvE tanking, I urge people to test the changes.

The movement check appears to be very responsive. For example, if I roll dodge, I get a weak heal tick during the dodge, but the next heal tick immediately after completing the roll is full strength. So the penalty for movement doesn't "persist" and goes away as soon as the movement ends.
Movement ticks are 58% of what they are on live. Static ticks are 145% of what they are on Live. So if you move, stop, move, stop and every other tick is a weak tick, you'll be getting the same amount of healing as you are right now on Live.
Movement caused by an enemy (e.g., not blocking an attack with a knockback ability) does not penalize your healing.

Yes, PvE tanks do have to move, but you're usually not constantly moving. You're usually moving in bursts and then standing still, and the movement check here is sufficiently granular.

StarOfElyon · August 2022

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

VolrathStormborn wrote: »

No Tanks stand still not moving so the extra HoT buff there is not going to apply much. Especially in the very mobile encounters in the latest content. Just not cool, especially since Healers got their reductions to heavy attack return, sticky HoTs, and forced to spam burst heals in the mobile environment the NB Tanks need to be able to heal themselves.

Just utilize Battle Spirit. You can apply whatever effect to it that you want.

Not true. In PVE it's quite normal to stand still for seconds at time until you are forced to move for a mechanic or get an add. The PVP shuffle is a pejorative for a reason.

It's not really advised to stand still in mechanic heavy encounters. Fang Lair is one example.

Alpheu5 · August 2022

code65536 wrote: »

Yes, PvE tanks do have to move, but you're usually not constantly moving. You're usually moving in bursts and then standing still, and the movement check here is sufficiently granular.

That's all well and good when working with an organized group that knows how fights operate, but the reality for career random-queuers is that a lot of people have abysmal positional awareness, which means everyone else has to be very flexible with their footwork to avoid causing a wipe. The change penalizes Nightblade tanks for trying to adapt to situations, and is exacerbated further in dungeons with fights that are incredibly mobile like Cauldron and Dread Cellar.

vgabor · August 2022

This is again the same mishap like the long duration dots, I start really wondering which part of the encounters team statement of "wanting to make encounters more dynamic and fast paced" wasn't understood by the combat team? Or are they deliberately making these changes against that?

code65536 · August 2022

Alpheu5 wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Yes, PvE tanks do have to move, but you're usually not constantly moving. You're usually moving in bursts and then standing still, and the movement check here is sufficiently granular.

That's all well and good when working with an organized group that knows how fights operate, but the reality for career random-queuers is that a lot of people have abysmal positional awareness, which means everyone else has to be very flexible with their footwork to avoid causing a wipe. The change penalizes Nightblade tanks for trying to adapt to situations, and is exacerbated further in dungeons with fights that are incredibly mobile like Cauldron and Dread Cellar.

Again, I think it's worth trying out. I main a NB tank, and I've tried out Dark Cloak in the new dungeon HMs in PTS 1, PTS 3, and PTS 5. What we have now in PTS 5 is a vast improvement over PTS 1 and PTS 3.

But what about compared to Live? Well, it's a buff in some situations and a nerf in some others, but I believe that you are overestimating the amount of movement. Even if I need to adjust positioning more to correct for positioning problems, I'm not constantly moving. After all, I do want to hold the boss kinda still, so that they stay in ground AoEs!

You brought up Cauldron and Dread Cellar. For Cauldron (I assume you mean the final boss), even during the rotating wall mechanic, I am not constantly moving. The hard part about that fight is resources, rather than incoming damage, as there are a lot of adds all hitting your block. So I'm moving in bursts, since whenever I see an opportunity, I stop to heavy attack to keep my stam up. Dread Cellar in general is not "incredibly mobile" (it's one of the few dungeons where I actually don't mind using Bracing Anchor). The one exception is the second boss, but even there, I'm moving in bursts from one safe spot to the next and trying to stay still for as long as possible, so that my damage dealers aren't always yelling at me for pulling the boss out of their AoEs. (Also, that second boss fight has very mild incoming damage, probably because all of the difficulty is in the 1-shot walls.)

ccfeeling · August 2022

TBH , 2k constantly HOT is really good enough for my NB tank vs all PVE contents even HM . ( Non 12 man trial discussion )

PTS v8.1.2 version is unacceptable , I get 0 healing when I cast DC at 100% hp , I have to lever the reward that cast DC under than 50% , NB tank usually keep HP 80% or above , because we cast DC a lot , we need DC 2nd effect minor protection and class passive Shadow Barrier .

I assume tank gets 40k hp at least , about 2k HOT a tick during moving , the number not yet include factors like mending , critical healing , CP , so at least 2500 a tick .

Also tank mitigation should stay around 70 ~ 79% , I would say 2500-ish HOT is fine .

Don't forget the healer in the group lol

, he alive , we out heal all time

150% healing bonus when we are not moving , cool , that's really cool , I don't even have to roll dodge the empower target heavy attack