[PvP] mDK changes in 3.3.2

DKsUnite · January 2018

DDuke wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

@DDuke

I think I just figured out why the Power Lash heal reads 4 seconds. It's an error. If you log into PTS under a new character- select the flame lash ability. Read the tooltip. It will say "2 seconds". Then, go to the passives and put two points into the "Searing Heat" passive. It'll add two seconds to your Power Lash heal. This is not intended. Searing Heat is not supposed to increase the duration of that ability by 2 seconds. It's supposed to increase the duration of Firey Breath, Searing Strike, and DK Standard. It's a bug.

As for this comment: "If you die to burst damage, your build is ill-optimized. It's as simple as that. No offense." The same can be said of a medium armor build.

I'd like to see you calculate a medium armor build that has a spammable heal/dmg (or Vigor/Rally strong enough) to consistently stay above the burst range against a mDK that will be glued to you 24/7 with Empowering Chains.

My own stam builds survive high dmg mDK burst (they've just enough health for that), but they don't survive high sustained, unavoidable damage - so you're dead within a few seconds no matter what.

Trust me, spent unhealthy amounts of time on Build Editor trying to find a silver bullet. One doesn't exist.

What does your math say when you get burst by 3 NBs for max damage?

Durham wrote: »

I just wish the stam DK would get some love...
I ha e listed on the forum 678567444566y times the problem with stam dk.. but all we ever see on the forums is magicka dks.....

Magicka DK vs Stam DK... let's look at the differences here....

It's actually sad when you do .. the stam DK is a shell of its former ...

Tbh, magicka DK is a shell of its former self :P RIP 1.5 mDK

Domander · January 2018

DDuke wrote: »

Quantum_V wrote: »

Hey guys,

So just 2 quick disclaimers before I get to the point; if you're going to come to this thread to simply say 'mDKs need to stop QQing' or anything that revolves around that idea, simply don't bother and don't waste your time. You aren't helping anyone and just wasting your own time. With that said, if you've got constructive critism or ideas that diverge or converge from mine, I'd be thankful if you could present us with it. Secondly, yes, I have tested the changes in PTS. So with that out of the way.

There were 2 main changes addressing mDKs this PTS:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Dragonknight
Ardent Flame
Flame Lash (Lava Whip morph): The Power Lash attack from this morph now has a 3 second cooldown.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Dragonknight
Ardent Flame
Flame Lash (Lava Whip morph): Fixed an issue where the Power Lash attack from this morph could not be dodged.

As far as the former point goes:

From PTS testing, implementing this 3s cooldown didn't have a considerable effect on 1v1 scenarios, as the time it takes to normally proc powerlash is somewhere around that 3s mark. However, this presents mDKs with a new issue, which is proccing Flame Lash on openworld opponents. Switching targets mid fight is an important aspect of PvP and not being able to set target B offbalance when needed might prove to be a real obstacle to mDKs overall performance in Open World scenarios. With that said, I think an intuitive solution would be that the 3s cooldown to proc flame lash should be applied on specific targets instead of appling it directly to the casted skill.

As the latter point goes:

So this is where the real issue begins, at least in my opinion. Magicka DKs have one of the most mechanically, well-thought, interesting general playstyles. Where everything synchronized and revolved around the ability of the class to hold it's ground - and even with a lack of mobility - had the tools to be effective through CCs and overall control on the battlefield. Powerlash has been undodgeable for that past 2 years if I recal correctly, and it fit mDKs fluidity and playstyle like a tailored suit.

With that idea in mind, rooting instinctively provokes a rolldodge reaction, and due to how the timing on powerlash procced, it'd hit players that mindlessly rolldodges away from the mDKs grasp - requiring thought process behind fighting a DK and making the game more interestingly rich. Best part of it, is that this mechanic had counterplay and is commonly applied by patient players; which is normally blocking while rooted and roll dodging after successfully blocking the incoming powerlash. This sole mechanic enriched the game making your decisions reflect on the final outcome of the fight and made powerlash resonate with the general playstyle of the class.

Now, as far as PTS testing went: I've dueled a ton. Powerlash simply misses ALL THE TIME, worst part is that if powerlash misses, the skill is put on a 3s cooldown. As a consequence, the main form of DPS is rendered useless against a lot of player. Either way, I tried being optimisitc about that, thinking to myself 'well, I can just hold the powerlash just like mag blades hold to their assassins will, and let it go after the person is done with the dodge'. Oh, was I wrong... When my opponents were rolldodging they commonly rolldodged away from the range of the powerlash and combining that with dks low mobility, the powerlash was wasted. Either way, comparing assassins' will to powerlash is not a fair comparison: powerlash doesn't hit half as hard as an assassins will, powerlash is supposed to offer a sustained form of damage and healing and not a huge burst attack anyways so both skills are used diffrently...

All of this combined ruined the fluidity and the admiration I had for mDKs mechanics. You rooting people (basically telling them to rolldodge) just to have a proc that comes from that very same root dodged. The combination of the root and the undodgeable proc that came after that enriched mDKs playstyle, made it fit, made it fluid. Please understand I'm not here asking for mDKs buffs, I said it before and I'll say it again, mDKs are an exceptional class. We just aren't in a position where we can take nerfs like this. ZOS, please think about the undodgeable lash more thoroughly, there are better solutions for the offbalance change and I bet that skilled and proficient mDKs will open a whole new fan of options to refine this class in this (and other threads).

Thank you for taking your time to read this whoever made it this far. I'm interested in knowing what most of you think.

Kind regards,

Quantum

Couple of questions:

1. Were you perhaps dueling a medium armor dodge roll build? Information about the opponent would be nice, because most people can't afford to dodge roll all (if any) of your Power Lashes.
2. Did you try Empowering Chains when they dodge roll away from you? You say mDKs have "low mobility", but this couldn't be further from the truth. Using Empowering Chains would not only let you close that gap (and deal undodgeable damage) after/during their dodge roll (and get Major Expedition to offset any possible snares on you), but it would also empower the Power Lash.
3. Are you using just root, or stun+root (i.e. Fossilize)?

Also, you say people previously had a "counter" to undodgeable Power Lash, i.e. blocking while rooted.

Medium armor dodge roll builds however cannot afford that, as they not only block very little damage compared to S&B block/mitigation oriented builds, but also run out of stamina doing so.
This is why dodge roll builds are free AP and don't live more than 10-20 seconds against any decent mDK on Live currently.

I do hope they buff the other Whip morph for PvE purposes, but Flame Lash is perfectly fine now.

DK does have low mobility, if you are suddenly outnumbered as MDK your options are really limited. You could mist form, but still that won't get you very far... and major expedition does not cancel out snares, I wish it did. (it helps some)

usmcjdking · January 2018

There is a lot of needless "sky-is-falling" posts in here.

Are mag DKs being nerfed? Sure. Overnerfed? Perhaps, but you'll need actual experience and data to back up that claim rather than the arbitrary conjecture occurring here. I am of the belief that they have been needlessly nerfed to address a mechanic that is not intrinsic to the class. Offbalance has no meaningful counterplay (can't purge it, can't break free from it, can't otherwise do anything about it) which is actually an issue. The only counterplay to offbalance is to be both CC and root immune, two statuses which have fairly low uptime over the course of any fight provided you aren't running Forward Momentum and 3x potion reduction glyphs with immov pots & poisons whilst using assassin's guile.

Also, let's stop discussing stamblade in a Mag DK thread. That's a very easy way to show the very low limits of your critical thinking capabilities if the only inference you have in regards to counter arguments is to just mindlessly spam "stamblade!!!!!!!!1!!".

ak_pvp · January 2018

usmcjdking wrote: »

There is a lot of needless "sky-is-falling" posts in here.

Are mag DKs being nerfed? Sure. Overnerfed? Perhaps, but you'll need actual experience and data to back up that claim rather than the arbitrary conjecture occurring here. I am of the belief that they have been needlessly nerfed to address a mechanic that is not intrinsic to the class. Offbalance has no meaningful counterplay (can't purge it, can't break free from it, can't otherwise do anything about it) which is actually an issue. The only counterplay to offbalance is to be both CC and root immune, two statuses which have fairly low uptime over the course of any fight provided you aren't running Forward Momentum and 3x potion reduction glyphs with immov pots & poisons whilst using assassin's guile.

Also, let's stop discussing stamblade in a Mag DK thread. That's a very easy way to show the very low limits of your critical thinking capabilities if the only inference you have in regards to counter arguments is to just mindlessly spam "stamblade!!!!!!!!1!!".

Its not being over nerfed. It is getting a bug fixed. Doesn't change that the rest of the class is pretty ***.

usmcjdking · January 2018

ak_pvp wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

There is a lot of needless "sky-is-falling" posts in here.

Are mag DKs being nerfed? Sure. Overnerfed? Perhaps, but you'll need actual experience and data to back up that claim rather than the arbitrary conjecture occurring here. I am of the belief that they have been needlessly nerfed to address a mechanic that is not intrinsic to the class. Offbalance has no meaningful counterplay (can't purge it, can't break free from it, can't otherwise do anything about it) which is actually an issue. The only counterplay to offbalance is to be both CC and root immune, two statuses which have fairly low uptime over the course of any fight provided you aren't running Forward Momentum and 3x potion reduction glyphs with immov pots & poisons whilst using assassin's guile.

Also, let's stop discussing stamblade in a Mag DK thread. That's a very easy way to show the very low limits of your critical thinking capabilities if the only inference you have in regards to counter arguments is to just mindlessly spam "stamblade!!!!!!!!1!!".

Its not being over nerfed. It is getting a bug fixed. Doesn't change that the rest of the class is pretty ***.

A cooldown on power lash isn't a bug fix. It's a nerf to support an unintended consequence of the off balance rework.

Jawasa · January 2018

@IZZESparkling feel free to try Killing me only medium armour build as it spams rapids in a ball group. If your on PC EU maybe we ca meet up and help each other l2p you can come on a medium build and teach me How to 1v1 My magdk.

ak_pvp · January 2018

usmcjdking wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

There is a lot of needless "sky-is-falling" posts in here.

Are mag DKs being nerfed? Sure. Overnerfed? Perhaps, but you'll need actual experience and data to back up that claim rather than the arbitrary conjecture occurring here. I am of the belief that they have been needlessly nerfed to address a mechanic that is not intrinsic to the class. Offbalance has no meaningful counterplay (can't purge it, can't break free from it, can't otherwise do anything about it) which is actually an issue. The only counterplay to offbalance is to be both CC and root immune, two statuses which have fairly low uptime over the course of any fight provided you aren't running Forward Momentum and 3x potion reduction glyphs with immov pots & poisons whilst using assassin's guile.

Also, let's stop discussing stamblade in a Mag DK thread. That's a very easy way to show the very low limits of your critical thinking capabilities if the only inference you have in regards to counter arguments is to just mindlessly spam "stamblade!!!!!!!!1!!".

Its not being over nerfed. It is getting a bug fixed. Doesn't change that the rest of the class is pretty ***.

A cooldown on power lash isn't a bug fix. It's a nerf to support an unintended consequence of the off balance rework.

Ah, I was on about dodge rolling. The changes are a situational buff in PvP. 3s constant instead of 5s+lightning/interrupt, and it can stun too. But a definite nerf in PvE.

Feanor · January 2018

Feanor wrote: »

I'd find it interesting what the self-proclaimed DK experts want the class toolkit to be. From the posts here I figure it's something like deadly in melee range (CC galore, powerful DoTs and undodgeable power lash on top) while being untouchable by range with the fixes to wings. And that wouldn't be an issue and totally fine? For all the flak @DDuke has got in this thread - reading stuff from DK players here and in other threads (like wings should also purge snares) is even more ridiculous.

I’m still waiting. What should the class be in PvP? And no, a hard counter to ranged play styles while having a ton of damage and the best crowd control doesn’t count as answer because it’s absurd.

ak_pvp · January 2018

Feanor wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

I'd find it interesting what the self-proclaimed DK experts want the class toolkit to be. From the posts here I figure it's something like deadly in melee range (CC galore, powerful DoTs and undodgeable power lash on top) while being untouchable by range with the fixes to wings. And that wouldn't be an issue and totally fine? For all the flak @DDuke has got in this thread - reading stuff from DK players here and in other threads (like wings should also purge snares) is even more ridiculous.

I’m still waiting. What should the class be in PvP? And no, a hard counter to ranged play styles while having a ton of damage and the best crowd control doesn’t count as answer because it’s absurd.

Damage about the same. Its low due to requiring heavy, but can go high if squishy. Which is fair. Unlike warden with amazing damage in full heavy, none of that for DK. Maybe dots get better for 1vX, but thats as general. Dodged lash is fine too, i am for dodge buffs.

Functioning counter to range, foss isn't. Wings is trash. mobility is low, chains is still buggy and quite clunky, especially the pull morph. Therefor wings should be 4s and 3 projectiles. (A nerf against wing spammers and in duels) but be 3 per person so it isn't instarip in 1vX situations. Also make bird and pulse reflectable. They work like projectiles in every other way so its only fair.

Should be a slow class. Honestly I don't think they should have a gapcloser. Chains just looks silly. Shouldn't be forced into mist, so many agree its awful. Other morph of wings 4s snare removal seems fair. Sacrifice damage morph. Not as good as 2h, but not force magDK into mist, and allow stam to use rally for heal.

Sustain of main stat is worst of any class. But it can be remedied, so not really need a massive change

Group utility is pretty bad at higher numbers, but eh. There are limited times you need a *perfect* bomb group. GvGs mainly. So its fine.

On CC, NB and sorc has a better hard CC. Sorc and warden both have viable talons replacements in groups.

FlamingBeard · January 2018

Feanor wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

I'd find it interesting what the self-proclaimed DK experts want the class toolkit to be. From the posts here I figure it's something like deadly in melee range (CC galore, powerful DoTs and undodgeable power lash on top) while being untouchable by range with the fixes to wings. And that wouldn't be an issue and totally fine? For all the flak @DDuke has got in this thread - reading stuff from DK players here and in other threads (like wings should also purge snares) is even more ridiculous.

I’m still waiting. What should the class be in PvP? And no, a hard counter to ranged play styles while having a ton of damage and the best crowd control doesn’t count as answer because it’s absurd.

Sorcerer literally has all the same CC capabilities as Dragonknight except longer range and more utility.

Rune Prison is a better version of Fossilize with a MUCH longer range, and Encase (and morphs) is a better version of Dark Talons and morphs and is also MUCH longer range. Sorcerer also has Daedric Mines which DK lacks any equivalent to.

So tell me again how Dragonknight has the absolute best CC?

I think you just aren't willing to be genuine in this thread and want DKs nerfed.

ak_pvp · January 2018

FlamingBeard wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

I'd find it interesting what the self-proclaimed DK experts want the class toolkit to be. From the posts here I figure it's something like deadly in melee range (CC galore, powerful DoTs and undodgeable power lash on top) while being untouchable by range with the fixes to wings. And that wouldn't be an issue and totally fine? For all the flak @DDuke has got in this thread - reading stuff from DK players here and in other threads (like wings should also purge snares) is even more ridiculous.

I’m still waiting. What should the class be in PvP? And no, a hard counter to ranged play styles while having a ton of damage and the best crowd control doesn’t count as answer because it’s absurd.

Sorcerer literally has all the same CC capabilities as Dragonknight except longer range and more utility.

Rune Prison is a better version of Fossilize with a MUCH longer range, and Encase (and morphs) is a better version of Dark Talons and morphs and is also MUCH longer range. Sorcerer also has Daedric Mines which DK lacks any equivalent to.

So tell me again how Dragonknight has the absolute best CC?

I think you just aren't willing to be genuine in this thread and want DKs nerfed.

And streak+pet AoE stun. The trade was that we got stun on our proc, and they got our better hard CC. Sorc mains tend to forget that and cry that the class is dead. Whilst 1d asf, its still got plenty going for it. I mean, 2 executes, good AoD and mobility (good comparitively) OK burst, but telegraphed and outshone by warden. And shields.

CaliMade · January 2018

usmcjdking wrote: »

There is a lot of needless "sky-is-falling" posts in here.

Are mag DKs being nerfed? Sure. Overnerfed? Perhaps, but you'll need actual experience and data to back up that claim rather than the arbitrary conjecture occurring here. I am of the belief that they have been needlessly nerfed to address a mechanic that is not intrinsic to the class. Offbalance has no meaningful counterplay (can't purge it, can't break free from it, can't otherwise do anything about it) which is actually an issue. The only counterplay to offbalance is to be both CC and root immune, two statuses which have fairly low uptime over the course of any fight provided you aren't running Forward Momentum and 3x potion reduction glyphs with immov pots & poisons whilst using assassin's guile.

Also, let's stop discussing stamblade in a Mag DK thread. That's a very easy way to show the very low limits of your critical thinking capabilities if the only inference you have in regards to counter arguments is to just mindlessly spam "stamblade!!!!!!!!1!!".

Templars can deny a powerlash so i assume that its is purgable

Subversus · January 2018

FlamingBeard wrote: »

Calboy wrote: »

alot of people in this thread talking about the lack of mdk mobility yet mdk's have the best gap closer in the game about to get even stronger.

Best gap closer in the game? Maybe on paper, but not in usage.

And about to get stronger?

"We’ve decreased the damage values on numerous gap closer abilities – not just Teleport Strike, but other charge abilities such as Critical Charge or Focused Charge as well. Gap closers in ESO have no cooldown and can hit for extreme amounts of damage, so there is very little opportunity cost in forcing your enemies to use them. Decreasing their damage ensures that ranged players utilizing movement and terrain to maintain their distance are better rewarded for that advantage."

If by "stronger" you mean other gap closers are getting nerfed then.. I guess you could technically say that?

It's more likely that ZOS realizes nearly nobody uses magDK's chains to gap close so they chose to not smash it with a nerf hammer.

So if that was your point, you kind of defeated yourself there.

---

Inig0 wrote: »

After reading your comparison or rather lack there of to merciless I came to the idea of perhaps making flame lash behave like merciless where instead of the skill gaining that feature from targeting a player that is off-balance. Instead when you cause a player to become off-balance you gain a buff (similar to merciless) which allows you to use or not use in some time period like merciless.

What i mean by this:

you cause someone or something to become off-balance --> flame lash then procs --> you have 10sec (arbitrary) to use it --> after you use it you cannot proc flame lash from an off balance target for 3 sec.

Or perhaps some system like that where its a conditional proc instead of a targets conditional status.

On the idea of it being dodge-able. I feel torn.

the argument for --> its a proc skill that should land 100% if the target is in range
the argument against --> dks have enough things that go through dodge (deep breath, leap, and anything else i might be
missing) and dont need high single target damage that also goes through dodge.

Another argument against (unfortunately) i would compare the lash proc to frags potentially? Which does similar damage (arguable) and is and always has been dodge-able.

I wouldn't compare a ranged damage proc that has no cooldown to a melee damage proc which has MUCH stricter proc conditions as well as a forced cooldown.

Not very comparable, nearly at all except that they're both called "procs."

"Merciless" "No cooldown"

oh honey

Feanor · January 2018

ak_pvp wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

I'd find it interesting what the self-proclaimed DK experts want the class toolkit to be. From the posts here I figure it's something like deadly in melee range (CC galore, powerful DoTs and undodgeable power lash on top) while being untouchable by range with the fixes to wings. And that wouldn't be an issue and totally fine? For all the flak @DDuke has got in this thread - reading stuff from DK players here and in other threads (like wings should also purge snares) is even more ridiculous.

I’m still waiting. What should the class be in PvP? And no, a hard counter to ranged play styles while having a ton of damage and the best crowd control doesn’t count as answer because it’s absurd.

Sorcerer literally has all the same CC capabilities as Dragonknight except longer range and more utility.

Rune Prison is a better version of Fossilize with a MUCH longer range, and Encase (and morphs) is a better version of Dark Talons and morphs and is also MUCH longer range. Sorcerer also has Daedric Mines which DK lacks any equivalent to.

So tell me again how Dragonknight has the absolute best CC?

I think you just aren't willing to be genuine in this thread and want DKs nerfed.

And streak+pet AoE stun. The trade was that we got stun on our proc, and they got our better hard CC. Sorc mains tend to forget that and cry that the class is dead. Whilst 1d asf, its still got plenty going for it. I mean, 2 executes, good AoD and mobility (good comparitively) OK burst, but telegraphed and outshone by warden. And shields.

That Sorcs are a better class in your view is irrelevant to the question what the DK should reasonably have in its toolkit.

FlamingBeard · January 2018

Feanor wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

I'd find it interesting what the self-proclaimed DK experts want the class toolkit to be. From the posts here I figure it's something like deadly in melee range (CC galore, powerful DoTs and undodgeable power lash on top) while being untouchable by range with the fixes to wings. And that wouldn't be an issue and totally fine? For all the flak @DDuke has got in this thread - reading stuff from DK players here and in other threads (like wings should also purge snares) is even more ridiculous.

I’m still waiting. What should the class be in PvP? And no, a hard counter to ranged play styles while having a ton of damage and the best crowd control doesn’t count as answer because it’s absurd.

Sorcerer literally has all the same CC capabilities as Dragonknight except longer range and more utility.

Rune Prison is a better version of Fossilize with a MUCH longer range, and Encase (and morphs) is a better version of Dark Talons and morphs and is also MUCH longer range. Sorcerer also has Daedric Mines which DK lacks any equivalent to.

So tell me again how Dragonknight has the absolute best CC?

I think you just aren't willing to be genuine in this thread and want DKs nerfed.

And streak+pet AoE stun. The trade was that we got stun on our proc, and they got our better hard CC. Sorc mains tend to forget that and cry that the class is dead. Whilst 1d asf, its still got plenty going for it. I mean, 2 executes, good AoD and mobility (good comparitively) OK burst, but telegraphed and outshone by warden. And shields.

That Sorcs are a better class in your view is irrelevant to the question what the DK should reasonably have in its toolkit.

Your entire opinion is now irrelevant because a melee-limited class like MagDK should have MORE crowd control than a super-mobile high ranged damage class like Sorcerer, not less.

At least you've revealed your true intentions. lol

Subversus wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

Calboy wrote: »

alot of people in this thread talking about the lack of mdk mobility yet mdk's have the best gap closer in the game about to get even stronger.

Best gap closer in the game? Maybe on paper, but not in usage.

And about to get stronger?

"We’ve decreased the damage values on numerous gap closer abilities – not just Teleport Strike, but other charge abilities such as Critical Charge or Focused Charge as well. Gap closers in ESO have no cooldown and can hit for extreme amounts of damage, so there is very little opportunity cost in forcing your enemies to use them. Decreasing their damage ensures that ranged players utilizing movement and terrain to maintain their distance are better rewarded for that advantage."

If by "stronger" you mean other gap closers are getting nerfed then.. I guess you could technically say that?

It's more likely that ZOS realizes nearly nobody uses magDK's chains to gap close so they chose to not smash it with a nerf hammer.

So if that was your point, you kind of defeated yourself there.

---

Inig0 wrote: »

After reading your comparison or rather lack there of to merciless I came to the idea of perhaps making flame lash behave like merciless where instead of the skill gaining that feature from targeting a player that is off-balance. Instead when you cause a player to become off-balance you gain a buff (similar to merciless) which allows you to use or not use in some time period like merciless.

What i mean by this:

you cause someone or something to become off-balance --> flame lash then procs --> you have 10sec (arbitrary) to use it --> after you use it you cannot proc flame lash from an off balance target for 3 sec.

Or perhaps some system like that where its a conditional proc instead of a targets conditional status.

On the idea of it being dodge-able. I feel torn.

the argument for --> its a proc skill that should land 100% if the target is in range
the argument against --> dks have enough things that go through dodge (deep breath, leap, and anything else i might be
missing) and dont need high single target damage that also goes through dodge.

Another argument against (unfortunately) i would compare the lash proc to frags potentially? Which does similar damage (arguable) and is and always has been dodge-able.

I wouldn't compare a ranged damage proc that has no cooldown to a melee damage proc which has MUCH stricter proc conditions as well as a forced cooldown.

Not very comparable, nearly at all except that they're both called "procs."

"Merciless" "No cooldown"

oh honey

I was talking about Crystal Fragments, you silly dunce

DDuke · January 2018

usmcjdking wrote: »

Are mag DKs being nerfed?

No.

Anyone who has actually tested the Power Lash changes on PTS can say it isn't a nerf compared to Live. Only vs dodge rollers will you land less Power Lashes (and even dodged Power Lashes provide the heal portion on PTS btw).

Vs.literally every other build (some of which magicka DKs actually had problems against on Live) it's an enormous buff.

I've made this point so, so many times yet all we get are these "sky is falling" posts and threads.

I'm spending hours on PTS every day, all I'm seeing is how much better DK does vs builds it didn't just roflstomp before, how it plays exactly as it did before.

No, your "DK identity" hasn't changed, your "playstyle" hasn't changed - nothing has changed except maybe (not always) your rotation vs dodge rollers.

If there are negative effects to these changes, why won't anyone show me on PTS?

A whole lot of hysteria over changes that probably none of the QQers have actually bothered to test or theorycraft around.

Feanor · January 2018

FlamingBeard wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

I'd find it interesting what the self-proclaimed DK experts want the class toolkit to be. From the posts here I figure it's something like deadly in melee range (CC galore, powerful DoTs and undodgeable power lash on top) while being untouchable by range with the fixes to wings. And that wouldn't be an issue and totally fine? For all the flak @DDuke has got in this thread - reading stuff from DK players here and in other threads (like wings should also purge snares) is even more ridiculous.

I’m still waiting. What should the class be in PvP? And no, a hard counter to ranged play styles while having a ton of damage and the best crowd control doesn’t count as answer because it’s absurd.

Sorcerer literally has all the same CC capabilities as Dragonknight except longer range and more utility.

Rune Prison is a better version of Fossilize with a MUCH longer range, and Encase (and morphs) is a better version of Dark Talons and morphs and is also MUCH longer range. Sorcerer also has Daedric Mines which DK lacks any equivalent to.

So tell me again how Dragonknight has the absolute best CC?

I think you just aren't willing to be genuine in this thread and want DKs nerfed.

And streak+pet AoE stun. The trade was that we got stun on our proc, and they got our better hard CC. Sorc mains tend to forget that and cry that the class is dead. Whilst 1d asf, its still got plenty going for it. I mean, 2 executes, good AoD and mobility (good comparitively) OK burst, but telegraphed and outshone by warden. And shields.

That Sorcs are a better class in your view is irrelevant to the question what the DK should reasonably have in its toolkit.

Your entire opinion is now irrelevant because a melee-limited class like MagDK should have MORE crowd control than a super-mobile high ranged damage class like Sorcerer, not less.

At least you've revealed your true intentions. lol

Subversus wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

Calboy wrote: »

alot of people in this thread talking about the lack of mdk mobility yet mdk's have the best gap closer in the game about to get even stronger.

Best gap closer in the game? Maybe on paper, but not in usage.

And about to get stronger?

"We’ve decreased the damage values on numerous gap closer abilities – not just Teleport Strike, but other charge abilities such as Critical Charge or Focused Charge as well. Gap closers in ESO have no cooldown and can hit for extreme amounts of damage, so there is very little opportunity cost in forcing your enemies to use them. Decreasing their damage ensures that ranged players utilizing movement and terrain to maintain their distance are better rewarded for that advantage."

If by "stronger" you mean other gap closers are getting nerfed then.. I guess you could technically say that?

It's more likely that ZOS realizes nearly nobody uses magDK's chains to gap close so they chose to not smash it with a nerf hammer.

So if that was your point, you kind of defeated yourself there.

---

Inig0 wrote: »

After reading your comparison or rather lack there of to merciless I came to the idea of perhaps making flame lash behave like merciless where instead of the skill gaining that feature from targeting a player that is off-balance. Instead when you cause a player to become off-balance you gain a buff (similar to merciless) which allows you to use or not use in some time period like merciless.

What i mean by this:

you cause someone or something to become off-balance --> flame lash then procs --> you have 10sec (arbitrary) to use it --> after you use it you cannot proc flame lash from an off balance target for 3 sec.

Or perhaps some system like that where its a conditional proc instead of a targets conditional status.

On the idea of it being dodge-able. I feel torn.

the argument for --> its a proc skill that should land 100% if the target is in range
the argument against --> dks have enough things that go through dodge (deep breath, leap, and anything else i might be
missing) and dont need high single target damage that also goes through dodge.

Another argument against (unfortunately) i would compare the lash proc to frags potentially? Which does similar damage (arguable) and is and always has been dodge-able.

I wouldn't compare a ranged damage proc that has no cooldown to a melee damage proc which has MUCH stricter proc conditions as well as a forced cooldown.

Not very comparable, nearly at all except that they're both called "procs."

"Merciless" "No cooldown"

oh honey

I was talking about Crystal Fragments, you silly dunce

Am I talking Mandarin? I don’t want to know how overpowered other classes are in your view. I want to know what the DK should be - where it’s strength should be and what the counter should be. Reasonably.

ak_pvp · January 2018

Feanor wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

I'd find it interesting what the self-proclaimed DK experts want the class toolkit to be. From the posts here I figure it's something like deadly in melee range (CC galore, powerful DoTs and undodgeable power lash on top) while being untouchable by range with the fixes to wings. And that wouldn't be an issue and totally fine? For all the flak @DDuke has got in this thread - reading stuff from DK players here and in other threads (like wings should also purge snares) is even more ridiculous.

I’m still waiting. What should the class be in PvP? And no, a hard counter to ranged play styles while having a ton of damage and the best crowd control doesn’t count as answer because it’s absurd.

Sorcerer literally has all the same CC capabilities as Dragonknight except longer range and more utility.

Rune Prison is a better version of Fossilize with a MUCH longer range, and Encase (and morphs) is a better version of Dark Talons and morphs and is also MUCH longer range. Sorcerer also has Daedric Mines which DK lacks any equivalent to.

So tell me again how Dragonknight has the absolute best CC?

I think you just aren't willing to be genuine in this thread and want DKs nerfed.

And streak+pet AoE stun. The trade was that we got stun on our proc, and they got our better hard CC. Sorc mains tend to forget that and cry that the class is dead. Whilst 1d asf, its still got plenty going for it. I mean, 2 executes, good AoD and mobility (good comparitively) OK burst, but telegraphed and outshone by warden. And shields.

That Sorcs are a better class in your view is irrelevant to the question what the DK should reasonably have in its toolkit.

Your entire opinion is now irrelevant because a melee-limited class like MagDK should have MORE crowd control than a super-mobile high ranged damage class like Sorcerer, not less.

At least you've revealed your true intentions. lol

Subversus wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

Calboy wrote: »

alot of people in this thread talking about the lack of mdk mobility yet mdk's have the best gap closer in the game about to get even stronger.

Best gap closer in the game? Maybe on paper, but not in usage.

And about to get stronger?

"We’ve decreased the damage values on numerous gap closer abilities – not just Teleport Strike, but other charge abilities such as Critical Charge or Focused Charge as well. Gap closers in ESO have no cooldown and can hit for extreme amounts of damage, so there is very little opportunity cost in forcing your enemies to use them. Decreasing their damage ensures that ranged players utilizing movement and terrain to maintain their distance are better rewarded for that advantage."

If by "stronger" you mean other gap closers are getting nerfed then.. I guess you could technically say that?

It's more likely that ZOS realizes nearly nobody uses magDK's chains to gap close so they chose to not smash it with a nerf hammer.

So if that was your point, you kind of defeated yourself there.

---

Inig0 wrote: »

After reading your comparison or rather lack there of to merciless I came to the idea of perhaps making flame lash behave like merciless where instead of the skill gaining that feature from targeting a player that is off-balance. Instead when you cause a player to become off-balance you gain a buff (similar to merciless) which allows you to use or not use in some time period like merciless.

What i mean by this:

you cause someone or something to become off-balance --> flame lash then procs --> you have 10sec (arbitrary) to use it --> after you use it you cannot proc flame lash from an off balance target for 3 sec.

Or perhaps some system like that where its a conditional proc instead of a targets conditional status.

On the idea of it being dodge-able. I feel torn.

the argument for --> its a proc skill that should land 100% if the target is in range
the argument against --> dks have enough things that go through dodge (deep breath, leap, and anything else i might be
missing) and dont need high single target damage that also goes through dodge.

Another argument against (unfortunately) i would compare the lash proc to frags potentially? Which does similar damage (arguable) and is and always has been dodge-able.

I wouldn't compare a ranged damage proc that has no cooldown to a melee damage proc which has MUCH stricter proc conditions as well as a forced cooldown.

Not very comparable, nearly at all except that they're both called "procs."

"Merciless" "No cooldown"

oh honey

I was talking about Crystal Fragments, you silly dunce

Am I talking Mandarin? I don’t want to know how overpowered other classes are in your view. I want to know what the DK should be - where it’s strength should be and what the counter should be. Reasonably.

Check my post before the one relating to sorc.

FlamingBeard · January 2018

Feanor wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

I'd find it interesting what the self-proclaimed DK experts want the class toolkit to be. From the posts here I figure it's something like deadly in melee range (CC galore, powerful DoTs and undodgeable power lash on top) while being untouchable by range with the fixes to wings. And that wouldn't be an issue and totally fine? For all the flak @DDuke has got in this thread - reading stuff from DK players here and in other threads (like wings should also purge snares) is even more ridiculous.

I’m still waiting. What should the class be in PvP? And no, a hard counter to ranged play styles while having a ton of damage and the best crowd control doesn’t count as answer because it’s absurd.

Sorcerer literally has all the same CC capabilities as Dragonknight except longer range and more utility.

Rune Prison is a better version of Fossilize with a MUCH longer range, and Encase (and morphs) is a better version of Dark Talons and morphs and is also MUCH longer range. Sorcerer also has Daedric Mines which DK lacks any equivalent to.

So tell me again how Dragonknight has the absolute best CC?

I think you just aren't willing to be genuine in this thread and want DKs nerfed.

And streak+pet AoE stun. The trade was that we got stun on our proc, and they got our better hard CC. Sorc mains tend to forget that and cry that the class is dead. Whilst 1d asf, its still got plenty going for it. I mean, 2 executes, good AoD and mobility (good comparitively) OK burst, but telegraphed and outshone by warden. And shields.

That Sorcs are a better class in your view is irrelevant to the question what the DK should reasonably have in its toolkit.

Your entire opinion is now irrelevant because a melee-limited class like MagDK should have MORE crowd control than a super-mobile high ranged damage class like Sorcerer, not less.

At least you've revealed your true intentions. lol

Subversus wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

Calboy wrote: »

alot of people in this thread talking about the lack of mdk mobility yet mdk's have the best gap closer in the game about to get even stronger.

Best gap closer in the game? Maybe on paper, but not in usage.

And about to get stronger?

"We’ve decreased the damage values on numerous gap closer abilities – not just Teleport Strike, but other charge abilities such as Critical Charge or Focused Charge as well. Gap closers in ESO have no cooldown and can hit for extreme amounts of damage, so there is very little opportunity cost in forcing your enemies to use them. Decreasing their damage ensures that ranged players utilizing movement and terrain to maintain their distance are better rewarded for that advantage."

If by "stronger" you mean other gap closers are getting nerfed then.. I guess you could technically say that?

It's more likely that ZOS realizes nearly nobody uses magDK's chains to gap close so they chose to not smash it with a nerf hammer.

So if that was your point, you kind of defeated yourself there.

---

Inig0 wrote: »

After reading your comparison or rather lack there of to merciless I came to the idea of perhaps making flame lash behave like merciless where instead of the skill gaining that feature from targeting a player that is off-balance. Instead when you cause a player to become off-balance you gain a buff (similar to merciless) which allows you to use or not use in some time period like merciless.

What i mean by this:

you cause someone or something to become off-balance --> flame lash then procs --> you have 10sec (arbitrary) to use it --> after you use it you cannot proc flame lash from an off balance target for 3 sec.

Or perhaps some system like that where its a conditional proc instead of a targets conditional status.

On the idea of it being dodge-able. I feel torn.

the argument for --> its a proc skill that should land 100% if the target is in range
the argument against --> dks have enough things that go through dodge (deep breath, leap, and anything else i might be
missing) and dont need high single target damage that also goes through dodge.

Another argument against (unfortunately) i would compare the lash proc to frags potentially? Which does similar damage (arguable) and is and always has been dodge-able.

I wouldn't compare a ranged damage proc that has no cooldown to a melee damage proc which has MUCH stricter proc conditions as well as a forced cooldown.

Not very comparable, nearly at all except that they're both called "procs."

"Merciless" "No cooldown"

oh honey

I was talking about Crystal Fragments, you silly dunce

Am I talking Mandarin? I don’t want to know how overpowered other classes are in your view. I want to know what the DK should be - where it’s strength should be and what the counter should be. Reasonably.

A few counters to magDK are:
1) cleansing abilities
2) snares
3) defiles of any kind
4) staying ranged so the DK can't immobilize you
5) using block-negating CCs such as Rune Prison or Mass Hysteria during your burst combo
6) bleeds
7) using immobilizations of your own
8) forward momentum/shuffle/immovable potions (i could separate these into individual counters but I'll be fairer to you since there are already so many

)
9) not running stage 4 Vampirism like a dork and expecting to take little damage from a flame class

Ragnaroek93 · January 2018

Feanor wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

I'd find it interesting what the self-proclaimed DK experts want the class toolkit to be. From the posts here I figure it's something like deadly in melee range (CC galore, powerful DoTs and undodgeable power lash on top) while being untouchable by range with the fixes to wings. And that wouldn't be an issue and totally fine? For all the flak @DDuke has got in this thread - reading stuff from DK players here and in other threads (like wings should also purge snares) is even more ridiculous.

I’m still waiting. What should the class be in PvP? And no, a hard counter to ranged play styles while having a ton of damage and the best crowd control doesn’t count as answer because it’s absurd.

To be fair, the OP and some other Dks in this thread have some points, some points I agree on and some others I don't. Just ignore the trolls in here and avoid arguing with them: there's nothing to expect from a clown crew which defines themselves through "exposing videos".

pieratsos · January 2018

FlamingBeard wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

I'd find it interesting what the self-proclaimed DK experts want the class toolkit to be. From the posts here I figure it's something like deadly in melee range (CC galore, powerful DoTs and undodgeable power lash on top) while being untouchable by range with the fixes to wings. And that wouldn't be an issue and totally fine? For all the flak @DDuke has got in this thread - reading stuff from DK players here and in other threads (like wings should also purge snares) is even more ridiculous.

I’m still waiting. What should the class be in PvP? And no, a hard counter to ranged play styles while having a ton of damage and the best crowd control doesn’t count as answer because it’s absurd.

Sorcerer literally has all the same CC capabilities as Dragonknight except longer range and more utility.

Rune Prison is a better version of Fossilize with a MUCH longer range, and Encase (and morphs) is a better version of Dark Talons and morphs and is also MUCH longer range. Sorcerer also has Daedric Mines which DK lacks any equivalent to.

So tell me again how Dragonknight has the absolute best CC?

I think you just aren't willing to be genuine in this thread and want DKs nerfed.

And streak+pet AoE stun. The trade was that we got stun on our proc, and they got our better hard CC. Sorc mains tend to forget that and cry that the class is dead. Whilst 1d asf, its still got plenty going for it. I mean, 2 executes, good AoD and mobility (good comparitively) OK burst, but telegraphed and outshone by warden. And shields.

That Sorcs are a better class in your view is irrelevant to the question what the DK should reasonably have in its toolkit.

Your entire opinion is now irrelevant because a melee-limited class like MagDK should have MORE crowd control than a super-mobile high ranged damage class like Sorcerer, not less.

At least you've revealed your true intentions. lol

Subversus wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

Calboy wrote: »

alot of people in this thread talking about the lack of mdk mobility yet mdk's have the best gap closer in the game about to get even stronger.

Best gap closer in the game? Maybe on paper, but not in usage.

And about to get stronger?

"We’ve decreased the damage values on numerous gap closer abilities – not just Teleport Strike, but other charge abilities such as Critical Charge or Focused Charge as well. Gap closers in ESO have no cooldown and can hit for extreme amounts of damage, so there is very little opportunity cost in forcing your enemies to use them. Decreasing their damage ensures that ranged players utilizing movement and terrain to maintain their distance are better rewarded for that advantage."

If by "stronger" you mean other gap closers are getting nerfed then.. I guess you could technically say that?

It's more likely that ZOS realizes nearly nobody uses magDK's chains to gap close so they chose to not smash it with a nerf hammer.

So if that was your point, you kind of defeated yourself there.

---

Inig0 wrote: »

After reading your comparison or rather lack there of to merciless I came to the idea of perhaps making flame lash behave like merciless where instead of the skill gaining that feature from targeting a player that is off-balance. Instead when you cause a player to become off-balance you gain a buff (similar to merciless) which allows you to use or not use in some time period like merciless.

What i mean by this:

you cause someone or something to become off-balance --> flame lash then procs --> you have 10sec (arbitrary) to use it --> after you use it you cannot proc flame lash from an off balance target for 3 sec.

Or perhaps some system like that where its a conditional proc instead of a targets conditional status.

On the idea of it being dodge-able. I feel torn.

the argument for --> its a proc skill that should land 100% if the target is in range
the argument against --> dks have enough things that go through dodge (deep breath, leap, and anything else i might be
missing) and dont need high single target damage that also goes through dodge.

Another argument against (unfortunately) i would compare the lash proc to frags potentially? Which does similar damage (arguable) and is and always has been dodge-able.

I wouldn't compare a ranged damage proc that has no cooldown to a melee damage proc which has MUCH stricter proc conditions as well as a forced cooldown.

Not very comparable, nearly at all except that they're both called "procs."

"Merciless" "No cooldown"

oh honey

I was talking about Crystal Fragments, you silly dunce

Am I talking Mandarin? I don’t want to know how overpowered other classes are in your view. I want to know what the DK should be - where it’s strength should be and what the counter should be. Reasonably.

A few counters to magDK are:
1) cleansing abilities
2) snares
3) defiles of any kind
4) staying ranged so the DK can't immobilize you
5) using block-negating CCs such as Rune Prison or Mass Hysteria during your burst combo
6) bleeds
7) using immobilizations of your own
8) forward momentum/shuffle/immovable potions (i could separate these into individual counters but I'll be fairer to you since there are already so many )
9) not running stage 4 Vampirism like a dork and expecting to take little damage from a flame class

You do realise that more than half of that are counters for all classes and then some right? Like literally, anyone can make a similar list with counters for every class but you somehow believe that only ur class has counters and feeling entitled to abilities ignoring mechanics. You keep going with your biased comments, making absurd statements and assuming that everyone has a secret agenda against your class and want it deleted from the game.

Nelson_Rebel · January 2018

pieratsos wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

I'd find it interesting what the self-proclaimed DK experts want the class toolkit to be. From the posts here I figure it's something like deadly in melee range (CC galore, powerful DoTs and undodgeable power lash on top) while being untouchable by range with the fixes to wings. And that wouldn't be an issue and totally fine? For all the flak @DDuke has got in this thread - reading stuff from DK players here and in other threads (like wings should also purge snares) is even more ridiculous.

I’m still waiting. What should the class be in PvP? And no, a hard counter to ranged play styles while having a ton of damage and the best crowd control doesn’t count as answer because it’s absurd.

Sorcerer literally has all the same CC capabilities as Dragonknight except longer range and more utility.

Rune Prison is a better version of Fossilize with a MUCH longer range, and Encase (and morphs) is a better version of Dark Talons and morphs and is also MUCH longer range. Sorcerer also has Daedric Mines which DK lacks any equivalent to.

So tell me again how Dragonknight has the absolute best CC?

I think you just aren't willing to be genuine in this thread and want DKs nerfed.

And streak+pet AoE stun. The trade was that we got stun on our proc, and they got our better hard CC. Sorc mains tend to forget that and cry that the class is dead. Whilst 1d asf, its still got plenty going for it. I mean, 2 executes, good AoD and mobility (good comparitively) OK burst, but telegraphed and outshone by warden. And shields.

That Sorcs are a better class in your view is irrelevant to the question what the DK should reasonably have in its toolkit.

Your entire opinion is now irrelevant because a melee-limited class like MagDK should have MORE crowd control than a super-mobile high ranged damage class like Sorcerer, not less.

At least you've revealed your true intentions. lol

Subversus wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

Calboy wrote: »

alot of people in this thread talking about the lack of mdk mobility yet mdk's have the best gap closer in the game about to get even stronger.

Best gap closer in the game? Maybe on paper, but not in usage.

And about to get stronger?

"We’ve decreased the damage values on numerous gap closer abilities – not just Teleport Strike, but other charge abilities such as Critical Charge or Focused Charge as well. Gap closers in ESO have no cooldown and can hit for extreme amounts of damage, so there is very little opportunity cost in forcing your enemies to use them. Decreasing their damage ensures that ranged players utilizing movement and terrain to maintain their distance are better rewarded for that advantage."

If by "stronger" you mean other gap closers are getting nerfed then.. I guess you could technically say that?

It's more likely that ZOS realizes nearly nobody uses magDK's chains to gap close so they chose to not smash it with a nerf hammer.

So if that was your point, you kind of defeated yourself there.

---

Inig0 wrote: »

After reading your comparison or rather lack there of to merciless I came to the idea of perhaps making flame lash behave like merciless where instead of the skill gaining that feature from targeting a player that is off-balance. Instead when you cause a player to become off-balance you gain a buff (similar to merciless) which allows you to use or not use in some time period like merciless.

What i mean by this:

you cause someone or something to become off-balance --> flame lash then procs --> you have 10sec (arbitrary) to use it --> after you use it you cannot proc flame lash from an off balance target for 3 sec.

Or perhaps some system like that where its a conditional proc instead of a targets conditional status.

On the idea of it being dodge-able. I feel torn.

the argument for --> its a proc skill that should land 100% if the target is in range
the argument against --> dks have enough things that go through dodge (deep breath, leap, and anything else i might be
missing) and dont need high single target damage that also goes through dodge.

Another argument against (unfortunately) i would compare the lash proc to frags potentially? Which does similar damage (arguable) and is and always has been dodge-able.

I wouldn't compare a ranged damage proc that has no cooldown to a melee damage proc which has MUCH stricter proc conditions as well as a forced cooldown.

Not very comparable, nearly at all except that they're both called "procs."

"Merciless" "No cooldown"

oh honey

I was talking about Crystal Fragments, you silly dunce

Am I talking Mandarin? I don’t want to know how overpowered other classes are in your view. I want to know what the DK should be - where it’s strength should be and what the counter should be. Reasonably.

A few counters to magDK are:
1) cleansing abilities
2) snares
3) defiles of any kind
4) staying ranged so the DK can't immobilize you
5) using block-negating CCs such as Rune Prison or Mass Hysteria during your burst combo
6) bleeds
7) using immobilizations of your own
8) forward momentum/shuffle/immovable potions (i could separate these into individual counters but I'll be fairer to you since there are already so many )
9) not running stage 4 Vampirism like a dork and expecting to take little damage from a flame class

You do realise that more than half of that are counters for all classes and then some right? Like literally, anyone can make a similar list with counters for every class but you somehow believe that only ur class has counters and feeling entitled to abilities ignoring mechanics. You keep going with your biased comments, making absurd statements and assuming that everyone has a secret agenda against your class and want it deleted from the game.

You do realize that these are specific to mag dk because

1.mag dk is a DOT class and has NO way to
counter a cleanse when it's healing AND damage relies on dots, no other class is reliant on dots' in both passives AND skills

2.snares, because dk's are ALREADY the worst mobility class in the game with the SHORTEST RANGE skills in the game.

3.defiles because our damage is tied to our healing (burning embers) and any good dk
knows that dblood in a fight is going to get you killed because all our skills are THE MOST expensive of EVERY CLASS

4.staying ranged because if a dk (who is snared) cannot do anything, no damage=no healing=dead

5.obvious to dk's
6. bleeds ok, not specific to dk, but dk's have no skills to counter bleeds
7.obvious
8.Forward momentum for ANY stambuild
is the Ultimate f you to every dk, it's a recastable IMMUNITY for ALL snares and ALL roots for a cheap ass cast. It 100% shuts down any dk roots
9. only morons run stage 4 vamp against a dk

So get out of here with your Bias, when it's clearly obvious the DK has the worst toolkit in the game, with the MOST expensive skills that ALL have easy cheap recastable counters, and has the worst resource management and reliable form of damage of every class spec in the game

F out of here

DDuke · January 2018

pieratsos wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

I'd find it interesting what the self-proclaimed DK experts want the class toolkit to be. From the posts here I figure it's something like deadly in melee range (CC galore, powerful DoTs and undodgeable power lash on top) while being untouchable by range with the fixes to wings. And that wouldn't be an issue and totally fine? For all the flak @DDuke has got in this thread - reading stuff from DK players here and in other threads (like wings should also purge snares) is even more ridiculous.

I’m still waiting. What should the class be in PvP? And no, a hard counter to ranged play styles while having a ton of damage and the best crowd control doesn’t count as answer because it’s absurd.

Sorcerer literally has all the same CC capabilities as Dragonknight except longer range and more utility.

Rune Prison is a better version of Fossilize with a MUCH longer range, and Encase (and morphs) is a better version of Dark Talons and morphs and is also MUCH longer range. Sorcerer also has Daedric Mines which DK lacks any equivalent to.

So tell me again how Dragonknight has the absolute best CC?

I think you just aren't willing to be genuine in this thread and want DKs nerfed.

And streak+pet AoE stun. The trade was that we got stun on our proc, and they got our better hard CC. Sorc mains tend to forget that and cry that the class is dead. Whilst 1d asf, its still got plenty going for it. I mean, 2 executes, good AoD and mobility (good comparitively) OK burst, but telegraphed and outshone by warden. And shields.

That Sorcs are a better class in your view is irrelevant to the question what the DK should reasonably have in its toolkit.

Your entire opinion is now irrelevant because a melee-limited class like MagDK should have MORE crowd control than a super-mobile high ranged damage class like Sorcerer, not less.

At least you've revealed your true intentions. lol

Subversus wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

Calboy wrote: »

alot of people in this thread talking about the lack of mdk mobility yet mdk's have the best gap closer in the game about to get even stronger.

Best gap closer in the game? Maybe on paper, but not in usage.

And about to get stronger?

"We’ve decreased the damage values on numerous gap closer abilities – not just Teleport Strike, but other charge abilities such as Critical Charge or Focused Charge as well. Gap closers in ESO have no cooldown and can hit for extreme amounts of damage, so there is very little opportunity cost in forcing your enemies to use them. Decreasing their damage ensures that ranged players utilizing movement and terrain to maintain their distance are better rewarded for that advantage."

If by "stronger" you mean other gap closers are getting nerfed then.. I guess you could technically say that?

It's more likely that ZOS realizes nearly nobody uses magDK's chains to gap close so they chose to not smash it with a nerf hammer.

So if that was your point, you kind of defeated yourself there.

---

Inig0 wrote: »

After reading your comparison or rather lack there of to merciless I came to the idea of perhaps making flame lash behave like merciless where instead of the skill gaining that feature from targeting a player that is off-balance. Instead when you cause a player to become off-balance you gain a buff (similar to merciless) which allows you to use or not use in some time period like merciless.

What i mean by this:

you cause someone or something to become off-balance --> flame lash then procs --> you have 10sec (arbitrary) to use it --> after you use it you cannot proc flame lash from an off balance target for 3 sec.

Or perhaps some system like that where its a conditional proc instead of a targets conditional status.

On the idea of it being dodge-able. I feel torn.

the argument for --> its a proc skill that should land 100% if the target is in range
the argument against --> dks have enough things that go through dodge (deep breath, leap, and anything else i might be
missing) and dont need high single target damage that also goes through dodge.

Another argument against (unfortunately) i would compare the lash proc to frags potentially? Which does similar damage (arguable) and is and always has been dodge-able.

I wouldn't compare a ranged damage proc that has no cooldown to a melee damage proc which has MUCH stricter proc conditions as well as a forced cooldown.

Not very comparable, nearly at all except that they're both called "procs."

"Merciless" "No cooldown"

oh honey

I was talking about Crystal Fragments, you silly dunce

Am I talking Mandarin? I don’t want to know how overpowered other classes are in your view. I want to know what the DK should be - where it’s strength should be and what the counter should be. Reasonably.

A few counters to magDK are:
1) cleansing abilities
2) snares
3) defiles of any kind
4) staying ranged so the DK can't immobilize you
5) using block-negating CCs such as Rune Prison or Mass Hysteria during your burst combo
6) bleeds
7) using immobilizations of your own
8) forward momentum/shuffle/immovable potions (i could separate these into individual counters but I'll be fairer to you since there are already so many )
9) not running stage 4 Vampirism like a dork and expecting to take little damage from a flame class

You do realise that more than half of that are counters for all classes and then some right? Like literally, anyone can make a similar list with counters for every class but you somehow believe that only ur class has counters and feeling entitled to abilities ignoring mechanics. You keep going with your biased comments, making absurd statements and assuming that everyone has a secret agenda against your class and want it deleted from the game.

Those aren't even counters, not unless he's running a S&B permablocker with zero skills that would prevent kiting (i.e. Chains or Forward Momentum atleast on off bar).

Sounds like it's the usual pug zerglings that get farmed by better players, get salty on the forums and start blaming their class for their own lack of skill & game knowledge. No point engaging in further conversation with them.

Feanor · January 2018

Who can afford purging other than Templars or a dedicated purge monkey in a raid group? It’s not like you can give up a bar slot to run a 3k Magicka purge. I never see the skill used other than in a raid group setting.

krathos · January 2018

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

I'd find it interesting what the self-proclaimed DK experts want the class toolkit to be. From the posts here I figure it's something like deadly in melee range (CC galore, powerful DoTs and undodgeable power lash on top) while being untouchable by range with the fixes to wings. And that wouldn't be an issue and totally fine? For all the flak @DDuke has got in this thread - reading stuff from DK players here and in other threads (like wings should also purge snares) is even more ridiculous.

I’m still waiting. What should the class be in PvP? And no, a hard counter to ranged play styles while having a ton of damage and the best crowd control doesn’t count as answer because it’s absurd.

To be fair, the OP and some other Dks in this thread have some points, some points I agree on and some others I don't. Just ignore the trolls in here and avoid arguing with them: there's nothing to expect from a clown crew which defines themselves through "exposing videos".

Who in this thread has expose videos?

pieratsos · January 2018

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

I'd find it interesting what the self-proclaimed DK experts want the class toolkit to be. From the posts here I figure it's something like deadly in melee range (CC galore, powerful DoTs and undodgeable power lash on top) while being untouchable by range with the fixes to wings. And that wouldn't be an issue and totally fine? For all the flak @DDuke has got in this thread - reading stuff from DK players here and in other threads (like wings should also purge snares) is even more ridiculous.

I’m still waiting. What should the class be in PvP? And no, a hard counter to ranged play styles while having a ton of damage and the best crowd control doesn’t count as answer because it’s absurd.

Sorcerer literally has all the same CC capabilities as Dragonknight except longer range and more utility.

Rune Prison is a better version of Fossilize with a MUCH longer range, and Encase (and morphs) is a better version of Dark Talons and morphs and is also MUCH longer range. Sorcerer also has Daedric Mines which DK lacks any equivalent to.

So tell me again how Dragonknight has the absolute best CC?

I think you just aren't willing to be genuine in this thread and want DKs nerfed.

And streak+pet AoE stun. The trade was that we got stun on our proc, and they got our better hard CC. Sorc mains tend to forget that and cry that the class is dead. Whilst 1d asf, its still got plenty going for it. I mean, 2 executes, good AoD and mobility (good comparitively) OK burst, but telegraphed and outshone by warden. And shields.

That Sorcs are a better class in your view is irrelevant to the question what the DK should reasonably have in its toolkit.

Your entire opinion is now irrelevant because a melee-limited class like MagDK should have MORE crowd control than a super-mobile high ranged damage class like Sorcerer, not less.

At least you've revealed your true intentions. lol

Subversus wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

Calboy wrote: »

alot of people in this thread talking about the lack of mdk mobility yet mdk's have the best gap closer in the game about to get even stronger.

Best gap closer in the game? Maybe on paper, but not in usage.

And about to get stronger?

"We’ve decreased the damage values on numerous gap closer abilities – not just Teleport Strike, but other charge abilities such as Critical Charge or Focused Charge as well. Gap closers in ESO have no cooldown and can hit for extreme amounts of damage, so there is very little opportunity cost in forcing your enemies to use them. Decreasing their damage ensures that ranged players utilizing movement and terrain to maintain their distance are better rewarded for that advantage."

If by "stronger" you mean other gap closers are getting nerfed then.. I guess you could technically say that?

It's more likely that ZOS realizes nearly nobody uses magDK's chains to gap close so they chose to not smash it with a nerf hammer.

So if that was your point, you kind of defeated yourself there.

---

Inig0 wrote: »

After reading your comparison or rather lack there of to merciless I came to the idea of perhaps making flame lash behave like merciless where instead of the skill gaining that feature from targeting a player that is off-balance. Instead when you cause a player to become off-balance you gain a buff (similar to merciless) which allows you to use or not use in some time period like merciless.

What i mean by this:

you cause someone or something to become off-balance --> flame lash then procs --> you have 10sec (arbitrary) to use it --> after you use it you cannot proc flame lash from an off balance target for 3 sec.

Or perhaps some system like that where its a conditional proc instead of a targets conditional status.

On the idea of it being dodge-able. I feel torn.

the argument for --> its a proc skill that should land 100% if the target is in range
the argument against --> dks have enough things that go through dodge (deep breath, leap, and anything else i might be
missing) and dont need high single target damage that also goes through dodge.

Another argument against (unfortunately) i would compare the lash proc to frags potentially? Which does similar damage (arguable) and is and always has been dodge-able.

I wouldn't compare a ranged damage proc that has no cooldown to a melee damage proc which has MUCH stricter proc conditions as well as a forced cooldown.

Not very comparable, nearly at all except that they're both called "procs."

"Merciless" "No cooldown"

oh honey

I was talking about Crystal Fragments, you silly dunce

Am I talking Mandarin? I don’t want to know how overpowered other classes are in your view. I want to know what the DK should be - where it’s strength should be and what the counter should be. Reasonably.

A few counters to magDK are:
1) cleansing abilities
2) snares
3) defiles of any kind
4) staying ranged so the DK can't immobilize you
5) using block-negating CCs such as Rune Prison or Mass Hysteria during your burst combo
6) bleeds
7) using immobilizations of your own
8) forward momentum/shuffle/immovable potions (i could separate these into individual counters but I'll be fairer to you since there are already so many )
9) not running stage 4 Vampirism like a dork and expecting to take little damage from a flame class

You do realise that more than half of that are counters for all classes and then some right? Like literally, anyone can make a similar list with counters for every class but you somehow believe that only ur class has counters and feeling entitled to abilities ignoring mechanics. You keep going with your biased comments, making absurd statements and assuming that everyone has a secret agenda against your class and want it deleted from the game.

You do realize that these are specific to mag dk because

1.mag dk is a DOT class and has NO way to
counter a cleanse when it's healing AND damage relies on dots, no other class is reliant on dots' in both passives AND skills

2.snares, because dk's are ALREADY the worst mobility class in the game with the SHORTEST RANGE skills in the game.

3.defiles because our damage is tied to our healing (burning embers) and any good dk
knows that dblood in a fight is going to get you killed because all our skills are THE MOST expensive of EVERY CLASS

4.staying ranged because if a dk (who is snared) cannot do anything, no damage=no healing=dead

5.obvious to dk's
6. bleeds ok, not specific to dk, but dk's have no skills to counter bleeds
7.obvious
8.Forward momentum for ANY stambuild
is the Ultimate f you to every dk, it's a recastable IMMUNITY for ALL snares and ALL roots for a cheap ass cast. It 100% shuts down any dk roots
9. only morons run stage 4 vamp against a dk

So get out of here with your Bias, when it's clearly obvious the DK has the worst toolkit in the game, with the MOST expensive skills that ALL have easy cheap recastable counters, and has the worst resource management and reliable form of damage of every class spec in the game

F out of here

I said every class has their own counters. DKs are not the only class that has counters. You are talking to me about bias before you even read what i said before. I actually said that i dont think DKs are good. But of course like the other guy in all ur bias, you think that everyone here is anti DK with a secret agenda against your class and want it destroyed. Sorry, not all of us are like you. So yeah, ty for basically proving everything i said and you can F out of here too. Or i guess you can keep crying that a dodgeable power lash will make the ability useless if you are too bad to use it after a fossilize. Lmao.

Yngol · January 2018

I could be okay with the nerf to the dk burst potential somewhat; but dk's could use a bit more mobility in exchange! I know that chains grants major expedition but it's a skill that is almost an unjustifiable slot in open world. Could major/minor expedition (accompanied by a snare removal/immunity) be given to wings instead?

Furthermore, is mist form ever going to get fixed? Magicka DK's have been married to mist form for a long time, yet I still frequently get stunned/snared while in mist; which is really frustrating. There has been countless threads about this but no acknowledgement as of yet.

Quantum_V · January 2018

So from testing in PTS:

magDK is not bad - lets get that out of the way.

BUT

mDK feels clunky, doesn't feel smooth at all, double powerlashing is a mechanic that you rarely see specially when your opponent (specially magsorcs) realize that if they dodge the first powerlash they're good. mDK playstyle was changed significantly and it was just a matter of time until the stamplars and stamblades I was fighting to realize that dodging backwards or dodging and then immediately blocking was an effective way to quickly shutdown mDKs offensive windows.

Kilandros · January 2018

DDuke wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Are mag DKs being nerfed?

No.

Anyone who has actually tested the Power Lash changes on PTS can say it isn't a nerf compared to Live. Only vs dodge rollers will you land less Power Lashes (and even dodged Power Lashes provide the heal portion on PTS btw).

Vs.literally every other build (some of which magicka DKs actually had problems against on Live) it's an enormous buff.

I've made this point so, so many times yet all we get are these "sky is falling" posts and threads.

I'm spending hours on PTS every day, all I'm seeing is how much better DK does vs builds it didn't just roflstomp before, how it plays exactly as it did before.

No, your "DK identity" hasn't changed, your "playstyle" hasn't changed - nothing has changed except maybe (not always) your rotation vs dodge rollers.

If there are negative effects to these changes, why won't anyone show me on PTS?

A whole lot of hysteria over changes that probably none of the QQers have actually bothered to test or theorycraft around.

I don't understand why you keep proclaiming your PTS experiences as gospel here. On PTS all we can do to test stuff is duel since there aren't enough players to test open-world PvP. Dueling is a novelty game mode that the game should not be balanced around.

So you can't really say with certainty that the DK playstyle hasn't changed since you can't test the DK playstyle in a true open world environment. If you need an example of when the PTS testers got it wrong based solely on the limited scope of dueling, just see, e.g., the Destro Ult fiasco when that ultimate was heralded as trash that would never be used by anyone ever.

So you should refine your argument to say that DK is performing roughly the same in duels. That would be fine to say. But for many players (myself and I suspect the OP), duels aren't really what we're focusing on when we look at balance. We focus on how a build performs in open world. And open world requires mechanics that are generally not needed in duels like mobility, escapes, and burst. Duels are great for a mDK where I don't need to slot mist and I only need to slot single-target abilities. But my mDK dueling build and open-world builds are miles apart. You need to start distinguishing between those two types of play.

DDuke · January 2018

Quantum_V wrote: »

So from testing in PTS:

magDK is not bad - lets get that out of the way.

BUT

mDK feels clunky, doesn't feel smooth at all, double powerlashing is a mechanic that you rarely see specially when your opponent (specially magsorcs) realize that if they dodge the first powerlash they're good. mDK playstyle was changed significantly and it was just a matter of time until the stamplars and stamblades I was fighting to realize that dodging backwards or dodging and then immediately blocking was an effective way to quickly shutdown mDKs offensive windows.

There is no magicka sorc in the universe that can sustain dodging & CC breaking every 7s, especially now that Immovable potions are nerfed. If you find that a sorc has the impulse to dodge Fossilize->FL->PL, then what you can do is hold that PL for a second, cast embers , chains, rebuff/whatever & watch that sorc spend 1/4th of his stamina bar dodge rolling for nothing.

It's about outplaying your opponent now rather than having guaranteed damage, and the exact same goes for stamina builds as well.

I'm still missing lots of PLs as well on PTS (around 50% of them) vs stamina builds, but it's all about adjusting, getting the Fossilize->FL->PL rotation out of your muscle memory & replacing it with something else. Stam build CC breaks, rolls backwards?

You leap (lands before dodge roll animation ends)->LA+PL & if they're still alive they're at 20-30% health, low stam and about to die to your next Fossilize if they've no Rally built up.

Treat PL more as a proc and less as some guaranteed burst. Just like Assassin's Will, Frags etc, land them when you know (or are very certain atleast) you can land them.

Takes some practice, but that's a good thing.