[PvP] mDK changes in 3.3.2

Quantum_V

Hey guys,

So just 2 quick disclaimers before I get to the point; I'll be suggesting changes some will agree with and some wont, so please lets do our best to keep this discussion as civilized as possible. You aren't helping anyone and just wasting your own time. With that said, if you've got constructive critism or ideas that diverge or converge from mine, I'd be thankful if you could present us with it. Secondly, yes, I have tested the changes in PTS. So with that out of the way.

There were 2 main changes addressing mDKs this PTS:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Dragonknight

• Ardent Flame
  • Flame Lash (Lava Whip morph): The Power Lash attack from this morph now has a 3 second cooldown.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Dragonknight

• Ardent Flame
  • Flame Lash (Lava Whip morph): Fixed an issue where the Power Lash attack from this morph could not be dodged.

As far as the former point goes:

From PTS testing, implementing this 3s cooldown didn't have a considerable effect on 1v1 scenarios, as the time it takes to normally proc powerlash is somewhere around that 3s mark. However, this presents mDKs with a new issue, which is proccing Flame Lash on openworld opponents. Switching targets mid fight is an important aspect of PvP and not being able to set target B offbalance when needed might prove to be a real obstacle to mDKs overall performance in Open World scenarios. With that said, I think an intuitive solution would be that the 3s cooldown to proc flame lash should be applied on specific targets instead of appling it directly to the casted skill.

As the latter point goes:

So this is where the real issue begins, at least in my opinion. Magicka DKs have one of the most mechanically, well-thought, interesting general playstyles. Where everything synchronized and revolved around the ability of the class to hold it's ground - and even with a lack of mobility - had the tools to be effective through CCs and overall control on the battlefield. Powerlash has been undodgeable for that past 2 years if I recal correctly, and it fit mDKs fluidity and playstyle like a tailored suit.

With that idea in mind, rooting instinctively provokes a rolldodge reaction, and due to how the timing on powerlash procced, it'd hit players that mindlessly rolldodges away from the mDKs grasp - requiring thought process behind fighting a DK and making the game more interestingly rich. Best part of it, is that this mechanic had counterplay and is commonly applied by patient players; which is normally blocking while rooted and roll dodging after successfully blocking the incoming powerlash. This sole mechanic enriched the game making your decisions reflect on the final outcome of the fight and made powerlash resonate with the general playstyle of the class.

Now, as far as PTS testing went: I've dueled a ton. Powerlash simply misses ALL THE TIME, worst part is that if powerlash misses, the skill is put on a 3s cooldown. As a consequence, the main form of DPS is rendered useless against a lot of player. Either way, I tried being optimisitc about that, thinking to myself 'well, I can just hold the powerlash just like mag blades hold to their assassins will, and let it go after the person is done with the dodge'. Oh, was I wrong... When my opponents were rolldodging they commonly rolldodged away from the range of the powerlash and combining that with dks low mobility, the powerlash was wasted. Either way, comparing assassins' will to powerlash is not a fair comparison: powerlash doesn't hit half as hard as an assassins will, powerlash is supposed to offer a sustained form of damage and healing and not a huge burst attack anyways so both skills are used diffrently...

All of this combined ruined the fluidity and the admiration I had for mDKs mechanics. You rooting people (basically telling them to rolldodge) just to have a proc that comes from that very same root dodged. The combination of the root and the undodgeable proc that came after that enriched mDKs playstyle, made it fit, made it fluid. Please understand I'm not here asking for mDKs buffs, I said it before and I'll say it again, mDKs are an exceptional class. We just aren't in a position where we can take nerfs like this. ZOS, please think about the undodgeable lash more thoroughly, there are better solutions for the offbalance change and I bet that skilled and proficient mDKs will open a whole new fan of options to refine this class in this (and other threads).

Thank you for taking your time to read this whoever made it this far. I'm interested in knowing what most of you think.

Kind regards,

Quantum
EDIT: My friend proposed an interesting solution. If whip is supposed to remain undodgeable, increasing its range might help balance this change further. Even if people roll dodge, you can hold your whip and let it go when they're done, as most of the time they won't create enough distance to simply disengage the 100% of the time

Rickter

Quantum_V wrote: »

it'd hit players that mindlessly rolldodges away from the mDKs grasp - requiring thought process behind fighting a DK and making the game more interestingly rich.

I have to disagree with this statement, as a medium armor wearer, taking 5-6.7k whip dmg while dk passive snared, and having talons and fossilize stacked on me, what options could i consider besides "mindlessly roll dodging away"? stand my ground and shield up with my 9k mag? heal through the pain? no. mdks are given a lot of tools to effectively lock down and against anyone not in heavy or spamming shields, you'll get shredded to pieces.

how would they have gotten around the power lash changes? lets think about this for a second: the problem was that power lash was not consuming unbalanced - this was for PvE. Obviously it proved OP for PvP - so if it consumed unbalanced it would wreck PvE. the cool down was the only other option.
as far as whip being dodgeable - i could go either way but i can say as a med armor build, it would be nice to not get 5.3k whips that i cant dodge. but the same can be said about cliff racer. . .
well the other option was to change its properties entirely. . . couple of things come to mind - get rid of its conditions dependecy and just make it the magicka morph and make the other whip morph the stamina version? heh

5.3-6.7k flame lashes is excessive any way you cut it. and no its not a vamp thing (the actual increase in dmg is nominal at best) or a CP allocation thing, its a flame lash thing
case in point: I reached out to a fellow stam dk that placed in the most recent Legend tournament on how he dealt with the magdks he fought and he confirmed he takes 5k whips and hes not a vamp. its a lot of dmg for anyone not spamming shields or in heavy. Granted, it came down to L2P for me, but at the same time not everyone is at a high skill level in this game (arguably one of its problems)
maybe give it diminishing returns in dmg?
that way youre guaranteed the big dmg first couple whips but spamming it hurts in the long run?
and have this apply to like, cliff racer lul

I hope i didnt come off too aggressive, I am not trying to be, just speaking from my perspective with my specific build.

DDuke

Quantum_V wrote: »

Hey guys,

So just 2 quick disclaimers before I get to the point; if you're going to come to this thread to simply say 'mDKs need to stop QQing' or anything that revolves around that idea, simply don't bother and don't waste your time. You aren't helping anyone and just wasting your own time. With that said, if you've got constructive critism or ideas that diverge or converge from mine, I'd be thankful if you could present us with it. Secondly, yes, I have tested the changes in PTS. So with that out of the way.

There were 2 main changes addressing mDKs this PTS:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Dragonknight

• Ardent Flame
  • Flame Lash (Lava Whip morph): The Power Lash attack from this morph now has a 3 second cooldown.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Dragonknight

• Ardent Flame
  • Flame Lash (Lava Whip morph): Fixed an issue where the Power Lash attack from this morph could not be dodged.

As far as the former point goes:

From PTS testing, implementing this 3s cooldown didn't have a considerable effect on 1v1 scenarios, as the time it takes to normally proc powerlash is somewhere around that 3s mark. However, this presents mDKs with a new issue, which is proccing Flame Lash on openworld opponents. Switching targets mid fight is an important aspect of PvP and not being able to set target B offbalance when needed might prove to be a real obstacle to mDKs overall performance in Open World scenarios. With that said, I think an intuitive solution would be that the 3s cooldown to proc flame lash should be applied on specific targets instead of appling it directly to the casted skill.

As the latter point goes:

So this is where the real issue begins, at least in my opinion. Magicka DKs have one of the most mechanically, well-thought, interesting general playstyles. Where everything synchronized and revolved around the ability of the class to hold it's ground - and even with a lack of mobility - had the tools to be effective through CCs and overall control on the battlefield. Powerlash has been undodgeable for that past 2 years if I recal correctly, and it fit mDKs fluidity and playstyle like a tailored suit.

With that idea in mind, rooting instinctively provokes a rolldodge reaction, and due to how the timing on powerlash procced, it'd hit players that mindlessly rolldodges away from the mDKs grasp - requiring thought process behind fighting a DK and making the game more interestingly rich. Best part of it, is that this mechanic had counterplay and is commonly applied by patient players; which is normally blocking while rooted and roll dodging after successfully blocking the incoming powerlash. This sole mechanic enriched the game making your decisions reflect on the final outcome of the fight and made powerlash resonate with the general playstyle of the class.

Now, as far as PTS testing went: I've dueled a ton. Powerlash simply misses ALL THE TIME, worst part is that if powerlash misses, the skill is put on a 3s cooldown. As a consequence, the main form of DPS is rendered useless against a lot of player. Either way, I tried being optimisitc about that, thinking to myself 'well, I can just hold the powerlash just like mag blades hold to their assassins will, and let it go after the person is done with the dodge'. Oh, was I wrong... When my opponents were rolldodging they commonly rolldodged away from the range of the powerlash and combining that with dks low mobility, the powerlash was wasted. Either way, comparing assassins' will to powerlash is not a fair comparison: powerlash doesn't hit half as hard as an assassins will, powerlash is supposed to offer a sustained form of damage and healing and not a huge burst attack anyways so both skills are used diffrently...

All of this combined ruined the fluidity and the admiration I had for mDKs mechanics. You rooting people (basically telling them to rolldodge) just to have a proc that comes from that very same root dodged. The combination of the root and the undodgeable proc that came after that enriched mDKs playstyle, made it fit, made it fluid. Please understand I'm not here asking for mDKs buffs, I said it before and I'll say it again, mDKs are an exceptional class. We just aren't in a position where we can take nerfs like this. ZOS, please think about the undodgeable lash more thoroughly, there are better solutions for the offbalance change and I bet that skilled and proficient mDKs will open a whole new fan of options to refine this class in this (and other threads).

Thank you for taking your time to read this whoever made it this far. I'm interested in knowing what most of you think.

Kind regards,

Quantum

Couple of questions:

1. Were you perhaps dueling a medium armor dodge roll build? Information about the opponent would be nice, because most people can't afford to dodge roll all (if any) of your Power Lashes.
2. Did you try Empowering Chains when they dodge roll away from you? You say mDKs have "low mobility", but this couldn't be further from the truth. Using Empowering Chains would not only let you close that gap (and deal undodgeable damage) after/during their dodge roll (and get Major Expedition to offset any possible snares on you), but it would also empower the Power Lash.
3. Are you using just root, or stun+root (i.e. Fossilize)?


Also, you say people previously had a "counter" to undodgeable Power Lash, i.e. blocking while rooted.

Medium armor dodge roll builds however cannot afford that, as they not only block very little damage compared to S&B block/mitigation oriented builds, but also run out of stamina doing so.
This is why dodge roll builds are free AP and don't live more than 10-20 seconds against any decent mDK on Live currently.


I do hope they buff the other Whip morph for PvE purposes, but Flame Lash is perfectly fine now.

kojou

The note reads like it was always their intention to make it dodge-able, but it basically is a nerf. I agree that the flame lash proc should be special and players should not be able to dodge it...

I'm not optimistic at this point that they will change it though, but maybe if there is enough uproar?...

Quantum_V

Rickter wrote: »

Quantum_V wrote: »

it'd hit players that mindlessly rolldodges away from the mDKs grasp - requiring thought process behind fighting a DK and making the game more interestingly rich.

I have to disagree with this statement, as a medium armor wearer, taking 5-6.7k whip dmg while dk passive snared, and having talons and fossilize stacked on me, what options could i consider besides "mindlessly roll dodging away"? stand my ground and shield up with my 9k mag? heal through the pain? no. mdks are given a lot of tools to effectively lock down and against anyone not in heavy or spamming shields, you'll get shredded to pieces.

how would they have gotten around the power lash changes? lets think about this for a second: the problem was that power lash was not consuming unbalanced - this was for PvE. Obviously it proved OP for PvP - so if it consumed unbalanced it would wreck PvE. the cool down was the only other option.
as far as whip being dodgeable - i could go either way but i can say as a med armor build, it would be nice to not get 5.3k whips that i cant dodge. but the same can be said about cliff racer. . .
well the other option was to change its properties entirely. . . couple of things come to mind - get rid of its conditions dependecy and just make it the magicka morph and make the other whip morph the stamina version? heh

5.3-6.7k flame lashes is excessive any way you cut it. and no its not a vamp thing (the actual increase in dmg is nominal at best) or a CP allocation thing, its a flame lash thing
case in point: I reached out to a fellow stam dk that placed in the most recent Legend tournament on how he dealt with the magdks he fought and he confirmed he takes 5k whips and hes not a vamp. its a lot of dmg for anyone not spamming shields or in heavy. Granted, it came down to L2P for me, but at the same time not everyone is at a high skill level in this game (arguably one of its problems)
maybe give it diminishing returns in dmg?
that way youre guaranteed the big dmg first couple whips but spamming it hurts in the long run?
and have this apply to like, cliff racer lul

I hope i didnt come off too aggressive, I am not trying to be, just speaking from my perspective with my specific build.

Hey, Rickter. Thanks for your input. Don't worry, you didn't come out as aggressive at all. I completely understand mDK v stamblade in medium is a very tough match up.

That's the intersting part, if you sit in talons for half a second and block the whip you'll have a better time. Some stamblades I've seen do that and they even the odds a lot more. But even if it didn't, from pts testing, there were duels where I landed
2 whips at most as roots provoke dodging which is counter inuitive, cause you want root to make your attacks hit. :P

Elrond87

maybe they thought the other morph was under used so making it seem more of a option to go for

olsborg

Powerlash has been undodgeable for that past 2 years if I recal correctly, and it fit mDKs fluidity and playstyle like a tailored suit.

It doesnt fit medium armor well at all tho. Dodgeroll cost quite abit of resources incase you didnt know. So much is undodgeable atm in cyrodiil that it feels like medium armor should just get deleted from pvp since the main defence is a joke.

Rickter

Quantum_V wrote: »

Hey, Rickter. Thanks for your input. Don't worry, you didn't come out as aggressive at all. I completely understand mDK v stamblade in medium is a very tough match up.

aw, im stam dk

FlamingBeard

Quantum_V wrote: »

Hey guys,

So just 2 quick disclaimers before I get to the point; if you're going to come to this thread to simply say 'mDKs need to stop QQing' or anything that revolves around that idea, simply don't bother and don't waste your time. You aren't helping anyone and just wasting your own time. With that said, if you've got constructive critism or ideas that diverge or converge from mine, I'd be thankful if you could present us with it. Secondly, yes, I have tested the changes in PTS. So with that out of the way.

There were 2 main changes addressing mDKs this PTS:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Dragonknight

• Ardent Flame
  • Flame Lash (Lava Whip morph): The Power Lash attack from this morph now has a 3 second cooldown.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Dragonknight

• Ardent Flame
  • Flame Lash (Lava Whip morph): Fixed an issue where the Power Lash attack from this morph could not be dodged.

As far as the former point goes:

From PTS testing, implementing this 3s cooldown didn't have a considerable effect on 1v1 scenarios, as the time it takes to normally proc powerlash is somewhere around that 3s mark. However, this presents mDKs with a new issue, which is proccing Flame Lash on openworld opponents. Switching targets mid fight is an important aspect of PvP and not being able to set target B offbalance when needed might prove to be a real obstacle to mDKs overall performance in Open World scenarios. With that said, I think an intuitive solution would be that the 3s cooldown to proc flame lash should be applied on specific targets instead of appling it directly to the casted skill.

As the latter point goes:

So this is where the real issue begins, at least in my opinion. Magicka DKs have one of the most mechanically, well-thought, interesting general playstyles. Where everything synchronized and revolved around the ability of the class to hold it's ground - and even with a lack of mobility - had the tools to be effective through CCs and overall control on the battlefield. Powerlash has been undodgeable for that past 2 years if I recal correctly, and it fit mDKs fluidity and playstyle like a tailored suit.

With that idea in mind, rooting instinctively provokes a rolldodge reaction, and due to how the timing on powerlash procced, it'd hit players that mindlessly rolldodges away from the mDKs grasp - requiring thought process behind fighting a DK and making the game more interestingly rich. Best part of it, is that this mechanic had counterplay and is commonly applied by patient players; which is normally blocking while rooted and roll dodging after successfully blocking the incoming powerlash. This sole mechanic enriched the game making your decisions reflect on the final outcome of the fight and made powerlash resonate with the general playstyle of the class.

Now, as far as PTS testing went: I've dueled a ton. Powerlash simply misses ALL THE TIME, worst part is that if powerlash misses, the skill is put on a 3s cooldown. As a consequence, the main form of DPS is rendered useless against a lot of player. Either way, I tried being optimisitc about that, thinking to myself 'well, I can just hold the powerlash just like mag blades hold to their assassins will, and let it go after the person is done with the dodge'. Oh, was I wrong... When my opponents were rolldodging they commonly rolldodged away from the range of the powerlash and combining that with dks low mobility, the powerlash was wasted. Either way, comparing assassins' will to powerlash is not a fair comparison: powerlash doesn't hit half as hard as an assassins will, powerlash is supposed to offer a sustained form of damage and healing and not a huge burst attack anyways so both skills are used diffrently...

All of this combined ruined the fluidity and the admiration I had for mDKs mechanics. You rooting people (basically telling them to rolldodge) just to have a proc that comes from that very same root dodged. The combination of the root and the undodgeable proc that came after that enriched mDKs playstyle, made it fit, made it fluid. Please understand I'm not here asking for mDKs buffs, I said it before and I'll say it again, mDKs are an exceptional class. We just aren't in a position where we can take nerfs like this. ZOS, please think about the undodgeable lash more thoroughly, there are better solutions for the offbalance change and I bet that skilled and proficient mDKs will open a whole new fan of options to refine this class in this (and other threads).

Thank you for taking your time to read this whoever made it this far. I'm interested in knowing what most of you think.

Kind regards,

Quantum

I don't even main magDK, in fact I have complained about them in the past, but I agree with all of this.

You can't just suddenly take all of the things that make Power Lash strong and remove them all at once.

Power Lash has effectively been neutered if it keeps the cooldown AND dodgeability.

ZOS, please make it either undodgeable again OR remove the cooldown so that I can fairly fight my magDK friends.

If the current PTS magDK changes go to the Live servers, magDK will see the worst gameplay quality it has seen in a while, and that's saying something.

Quantum_V

Overall I don't think 'oh it counters dodgy builds' is a very good argument... That'd be basically equivalent to saying

'nerf wings 'cause it counters destro magblades'

I don't think this is the correct way of approaching balancing.

Nerfing powerlash like that has inumerous of further implications in openworld.

stamblades can break mdks block by fear, and they have major defile of an on-demand ult. If we're thinking about dueling we might aswell delete all gear from the game ;P

DeadlyRecluse

TBH, I'd rather there not be single target, instant cast, undodgeable abilities at all.

That being said, the cumulative changes to power lash are odd and difficult to really sort out--I suspect that balancing off-balance in general is causing a lot of behind -the-scenes discussion. Hopefully it gets sorted out in such a way that magDKs still have options without having an anomalously undodgeable ability.

Props to OP for not posting nothing more than an emotional response to a patch note.

Kilandros

Great post, Quantum. Very well said with excellent explanations.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Wrobel

DDuke

Quantum_V wrote: »

Overall I don't think 'oh it counters dodgy builds' is a very good argument... That'd be basically equivalent to saying

'nerf wings 'cause it counters destro magblades'

I don't think this is the correct way of approaching balancing.

Nerfing powerlash like that has inumerous of further implications in openworld.

stamblades can break mdks block by fear, and they have major defile of an on-demand ult. If we're thinking about dueling we might aswell delete all gear from the game ;P

Wings don't make destro magblades die after the first Fossilize & I've actually watched destro magblades beat multiple mag DKs with wings in dueling tournaments with a careful well timed burst.

The only implications the Power Lash changes will have is that mDKs will do better against block & dmg shield oriented builds (Off Balance no longer consumed & 2x Power Lashes from each Fossilize) and somewhat worse vs the "free AP builds".

That's a good thing.

Kilandros

DDuke wrote: »

Quantum_V wrote: »

Hey guys,

So just 2 quick disclaimers before I get to the point; if you're going to come to this thread to simply say 'mDKs need to stop QQing' or anything that revolves around that idea, simply don't bother and don't waste your time. You aren't helping anyone and just wasting your own time. With that said, if you've got constructive critism or ideas that diverge or converge from mine, I'd be thankful if you could present us with it. Secondly, yes, I have tested the changes in PTS. So with that out of the way.

There were 2 main changes addressing mDKs this PTS:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Dragonknight

• Ardent Flame
  • Flame Lash (Lava Whip morph): The Power Lash attack from this morph now has a 3 second cooldown.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Dragonknight

• Ardent Flame
  • Flame Lash (Lava Whip morph): Fixed an issue where the Power Lash attack from this morph could not be dodged.

As far as the former point goes:

From PTS testing, implementing this 3s cooldown didn't have a considerable effect on 1v1 scenarios, as the time it takes to normally proc powerlash is somewhere around that 3s mark. However, this presents mDKs with a new issue, which is proccing Flame Lash on openworld opponents. Switching targets mid fight is an important aspect of PvP and not being able to set target B offbalance when needed might prove to be a real obstacle to mDKs overall performance in Open World scenarios. With that said, I think an intuitive solution would be that the 3s cooldown to proc flame lash should be applied on specific targets instead of appling it directly to the casted skill.

As the latter point goes:

So this is where the real issue begins, at least in my opinion. Magicka DKs have one of the most mechanically, well-thought, interesting general playstyles. Where everything synchronized and revolved around the ability of the class to hold it's ground - and even with a lack of mobility - had the tools to be effective through CCs and overall control on the battlefield. Powerlash has been undodgeable for that past 2 years if I recal correctly, and it fit mDKs fluidity and playstyle like a tailored suit.

With that idea in mind, rooting instinctively provokes a rolldodge reaction, and due to how the timing on powerlash procced, it'd hit players that mindlessly rolldodges away from the mDKs grasp - requiring thought process behind fighting a DK and making the game more interestingly rich. Best part of it, is that this mechanic had counterplay and is commonly applied by patient players; which is normally blocking while rooted and roll dodging after successfully blocking the incoming powerlash. This sole mechanic enriched the game making your decisions reflect on the final outcome of the fight and made powerlash resonate with the general playstyle of the class.

Now, as far as PTS testing went: I've dueled a ton. Powerlash simply misses ALL THE TIME, worst part is that if powerlash misses, the skill is put on a 3s cooldown. As a consequence, the main form of DPS is rendered useless against a lot of player. Either way, I tried being optimisitc about that, thinking to myself 'well, I can just hold the powerlash just like mag blades hold to their assassins will, and let it go after the person is done with the dodge'. Oh, was I wrong... When my opponents were rolldodging they commonly rolldodged away from the range of the powerlash and combining that with dks low mobility, the powerlash was wasted. Either way, comparing assassins' will to powerlash is not a fair comparison: powerlash doesn't hit half as hard as an assassins will, powerlash is supposed to offer a sustained form of damage and healing and not a huge burst attack anyways so both skills are used diffrently...

All of this combined ruined the fluidity and the admiration I had for mDKs mechanics. You rooting people (basically telling them to rolldodge) just to have a proc that comes from that very same root dodged. The combination of the root and the undodgeable proc that came after that enriched mDKs playstyle, made it fit, made it fluid. Please understand I'm not here asking for mDKs buffs, I said it before and I'll say it again, mDKs are an exceptional class. We just aren't in a position where we can take nerfs like this. ZOS, please think about the undodgeable lash more thoroughly, there are better solutions for the offbalance change and I bet that skilled and proficient mDKs will open a whole new fan of options to refine this class in this (and other threads).

Thank you for taking your time to read this whoever made it this far. I'm interested in knowing what most of you think.

Kind regards,

Quantum

Couple of questions:

1. Were you perhaps dueling a medium armor dodge roll build? Information about the opponent would be nice, because most people can't afford to dodge roll all (if any) of your Power Lashes.
2. Did you try Empowering Chains when they dodge roll away from you? You say mDKs have "low mobility", but this couldn't be further from the truth. Using Empowering Chains would not only let you close that gap (and deal undodgeable damage) after/during their dodge roll (and get Major Expedition to offset any possible snares on you), but it would also empower the Power Lash.
3. Are you using just root, or stun+root (i.e. Fossilize)?


Also, you say people previously had a "counter" to undodgeable Power Lash, i.e. blocking while rooted.

Medium armor dodge roll builds however cannot afford that, as they not only block very little damage compared to S&B block/mitigation oriented builds, but also run out of stamina doing so.
This is why dodge roll builds are free AP and don't live more than 10-20 seconds against any decent mDK on Live currently.


I do hope they buff the other Whip morph for PvE purposes, but Flame Lash is perfectly fine now.

Can we cool it with the hyperbole? I challenge you to fight a talented medium armor Stamplar on your mDK, for example. It's anything but "free AP." I absolutely chew through mDKs with my bleed-based medium Stamplar in Cyrodiil.

Now if you want to go back to asking for buffs to Medium I would be all for that conversation. But acting like somehow the only issue with Medium armor are Magicka DKs? Please.

DDuke

Kilandros wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Quantum_V wrote: »

Hey guys,

So just 2 quick disclaimers before I get to the point; if you're going to come to this thread to simply say 'mDKs need to stop QQing' or anything that revolves around that idea, simply don't bother and don't waste your time. You aren't helping anyone and just wasting your own time. With that said, if you've got constructive critism or ideas that diverge or converge from mine, I'd be thankful if you could present us with it. Secondly, yes, I have tested the changes in PTS. So with that out of the way.

There were 2 main changes addressing mDKs this PTS:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Dragonknight

• Ardent Flame
  • Flame Lash (Lava Whip morph): The Power Lash attack from this morph now has a 3 second cooldown.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Dragonknight

• Ardent Flame
  • Flame Lash (Lava Whip morph): Fixed an issue where the Power Lash attack from this morph could not be dodged.

As far as the former point goes:

From PTS testing, implementing this 3s cooldown didn't have a considerable effect on 1v1 scenarios, as the time it takes to normally proc powerlash is somewhere around that 3s mark. However, this presents mDKs with a new issue, which is proccing Flame Lash on openworld opponents. Switching targets mid fight is an important aspect of PvP and not being able to set target B offbalance when needed might prove to be a real obstacle to mDKs overall performance in Open World scenarios. With that said, I think an intuitive solution would be that the 3s cooldown to proc flame lash should be applied on specific targets instead of appling it directly to the casted skill.

As the latter point goes:

So this is where the real issue begins, at least in my opinion. Magicka DKs have one of the most mechanically, well-thought, interesting general playstyles. Where everything synchronized and revolved around the ability of the class to hold it's ground - and even with a lack of mobility - had the tools to be effective through CCs and overall control on the battlefield. Powerlash has been undodgeable for that past 2 years if I recal correctly, and it fit mDKs fluidity and playstyle like a tailored suit.

With that idea in mind, rooting instinctively provokes a rolldodge reaction, and due to how the timing on powerlash procced, it'd hit players that mindlessly rolldodges away from the mDKs grasp - requiring thought process behind fighting a DK and making the game more interestingly rich. Best part of it, is that this mechanic had counterplay and is commonly applied by patient players; which is normally blocking while rooted and roll dodging after successfully blocking the incoming powerlash. This sole mechanic enriched the game making your decisions reflect on the final outcome of the fight and made powerlash resonate with the general playstyle of the class.

Now, as far as PTS testing went: I've dueled a ton. Powerlash simply misses ALL THE TIME, worst part is that if powerlash misses, the skill is put on a 3s cooldown. As a consequence, the main form of DPS is rendered useless against a lot of player. Either way, I tried being optimisitc about that, thinking to myself 'well, I can just hold the powerlash just like mag blades hold to their assassins will, and let it go after the person is done with the dodge'. Oh, was I wrong... When my opponents were rolldodging they commonly rolldodged away from the range of the powerlash and combining that with dks low mobility, the powerlash was wasted. Either way, comparing assassins' will to powerlash is not a fair comparison: powerlash doesn't hit half as hard as an assassins will, powerlash is supposed to offer a sustained form of damage and healing and not a huge burst attack anyways so both skills are used diffrently...

All of this combined ruined the fluidity and the admiration I had for mDKs mechanics. You rooting people (basically telling them to rolldodge) just to have a proc that comes from that very same root dodged. The combination of the root and the undodgeable proc that came after that enriched mDKs playstyle, made it fit, made it fluid. Please understand I'm not here asking for mDKs buffs, I said it before and I'll say it again, mDKs are an exceptional class. We just aren't in a position where we can take nerfs like this. ZOS, please think about the undodgeable lash more thoroughly, there are better solutions for the offbalance change and I bet that skilled and proficient mDKs will open a whole new fan of options to refine this class in this (and other threads).

Thank you for taking your time to read this whoever made it this far. I'm interested in knowing what most of you think.

Kind regards,

Quantum

Couple of questions:

1. Were you perhaps dueling a medium armor dodge roll build? Information about the opponent would be nice, because most people can't afford to dodge roll all (if any) of your Power Lashes.
2. Did you try Empowering Chains when they dodge roll away from you? You say mDKs have "low mobility", but this couldn't be further from the truth. Using Empowering Chains would not only let you close that gap (and deal undodgeable damage) after/during their dodge roll (and get Major Expedition to offset any possible snares on you), but it would also empower the Power Lash.
3. Are you using just root, or stun+root (i.e. Fossilize)?


Also, you say people previously had a "counter" to undodgeable Power Lash, i.e. blocking while rooted.

Medium armor dodge roll builds however cannot afford that, as they not only block very little damage compared to S&B block/mitigation oriented builds, but also run out of stamina doing so.
This is why dodge roll builds are free AP and don't live more than 10-20 seconds against any decent mDK on Live currently.


I do hope they buff the other Whip morph for PvE purposes, but Flame Lash is perfectly fine now.

Can we cool it with the hyperbole? I challenge you to fight a talented medium armor Stamplar on your mDK, for example. It's anything but "free AP." I absolutely chew through mDKs with my bleed-based medium Stamplar in Cyrodiil.

Now if you want to go back to asking for buffs to Medium I would be all for that conversation. But acting like somehow the only issue with Medium armor are Magicka DKs? Please.

Sure, I'm on PTS right now. Feel free to bring your dodge roll builds

You can whisper @DDuke when you're in game.

Kilandros

DDuke wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Quantum_V wrote: »

Hey guys,

So just 2 quick disclaimers before I get to the point; if you're going to come to this thread to simply say 'mDKs need to stop QQing' or anything that revolves around that idea, simply don't bother and don't waste your time. You aren't helping anyone and just wasting your own time. With that said, if you've got constructive critism or ideas that diverge or converge from mine, I'd be thankful if you could present us with it. Secondly, yes, I have tested the changes in PTS. So with that out of the way.

There were 2 main changes addressing mDKs this PTS:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Dragonknight

• Ardent Flame
  • Flame Lash (Lava Whip morph): The Power Lash attack from this morph now has a 3 second cooldown.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Dragonknight

• Ardent Flame
  • Flame Lash (Lava Whip morph): Fixed an issue where the Power Lash attack from this morph could not be dodged.

As far as the former point goes:

From PTS testing, implementing this 3s cooldown didn't have a considerable effect on 1v1 scenarios, as the time it takes to normally proc powerlash is somewhere around that 3s mark. However, this presents mDKs with a new issue, which is proccing Flame Lash on openworld opponents. Switching targets mid fight is an important aspect of PvP and not being able to set target B offbalance when needed might prove to be a real obstacle to mDKs overall performance in Open World scenarios. With that said, I think an intuitive solution would be that the 3s cooldown to proc flame lash should be applied on specific targets instead of appling it directly to the casted skill.

As the latter point goes:

So this is where the real issue begins, at least in my opinion. Magicka DKs have one of the most mechanically, well-thought, interesting general playstyles. Where everything synchronized and revolved around the ability of the class to hold it's ground - and even with a lack of mobility - had the tools to be effective through CCs and overall control on the battlefield. Powerlash has been undodgeable for that past 2 years if I recal correctly, and it fit mDKs fluidity and playstyle like a tailored suit.

With that idea in mind, rooting instinctively provokes a rolldodge reaction, and due to how the timing on powerlash procced, it'd hit players that mindlessly rolldodges away from the mDKs grasp - requiring thought process behind fighting a DK and making the game more interestingly rich. Best part of it, is that this mechanic had counterplay and is commonly applied by patient players; which is normally blocking while rooted and roll dodging after successfully blocking the incoming powerlash. This sole mechanic enriched the game making your decisions reflect on the final outcome of the fight and made powerlash resonate with the general playstyle of the class.

Now, as far as PTS testing went: I've dueled a ton. Powerlash simply misses ALL THE TIME, worst part is that if powerlash misses, the skill is put on a 3s cooldown. As a consequence, the main form of DPS is rendered useless against a lot of player. Either way, I tried being optimisitc about that, thinking to myself 'well, I can just hold the powerlash just like mag blades hold to their assassins will, and let it go after the person is done with the dodge'. Oh, was I wrong... When my opponents were rolldodging they commonly rolldodged away from the range of the powerlash and combining that with dks low mobility, the powerlash was wasted. Either way, comparing assassins' will to powerlash is not a fair comparison: powerlash doesn't hit half as hard as an assassins will, powerlash is supposed to offer a sustained form of damage and healing and not a huge burst attack anyways so both skills are used diffrently...

All of this combined ruined the fluidity and the admiration I had for mDKs mechanics. You rooting people (basically telling them to rolldodge) just to have a proc that comes from that very same root dodged. The combination of the root and the undodgeable proc that came after that enriched mDKs playstyle, made it fit, made it fluid. Please understand I'm not here asking for mDKs buffs, I said it before and I'll say it again, mDKs are an exceptional class. We just aren't in a position where we can take nerfs like this. ZOS, please think about the undodgeable lash more thoroughly, there are better solutions for the offbalance change and I bet that skilled and proficient mDKs will open a whole new fan of options to refine this class in this (and other threads).

Thank you for taking your time to read this whoever made it this far. I'm interested in knowing what most of you think.

Kind regards,

Quantum

Couple of questions:

1. Were you perhaps dueling a medium armor dodge roll build? Information about the opponent would be nice, because most people can't afford to dodge roll all (if any) of your Power Lashes.
2. Did you try Empowering Chains when they dodge roll away from you? You say mDKs have "low mobility", but this couldn't be further from the truth. Using Empowering Chains would not only let you close that gap (and deal undodgeable damage) after/during their dodge roll (and get Major Expedition to offset any possible snares on you), but it would also empower the Power Lash.
3. Are you using just root, or stun+root (i.e. Fossilize)?


Also, you say people previously had a "counter" to undodgeable Power Lash, i.e. blocking while rooted.

Medium armor dodge roll builds however cannot afford that, as they not only block very little damage compared to S&B block/mitigation oriented builds, but also run out of stamina doing so.
This is why dodge roll builds are free AP and don't live more than 10-20 seconds against any decent mDK on Live currently.


I do hope they buff the other Whip morph for PvE purposes, but Flame Lash is perfectly fine now.

Can we cool it with the hyperbole? I challenge you to fight a talented medium armor Stamplar on your mDK, for example. It's anything but "free AP." I absolutely chew through mDKs with my bleed-based medium Stamplar in Cyrodiil.

Now if you want to go back to asking for buffs to Medium I would be all for that conversation. But acting like somehow the only issue with Medium armor are Magicka DKs? Please.

Sure, I'm on PTS right now. Feel free to bring your dodge roll builds

You can whisper @DDuke when you're in game.

Oh are we to the point of calling each other out to duel then? And here I was worried that this thread would get derailed by childishness.

Feanor

Kilandros wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Quantum_V wrote: »

Hey guys,

So just 2 quick disclaimers before I get to the point; if you're going to come to this thread to simply say 'mDKs need to stop QQing' or anything that revolves around that idea, simply don't bother and don't waste your time. You aren't helping anyone and just wasting your own time. With that said, if you've got constructive critism or ideas that diverge or converge from mine, I'd be thankful if you could present us with it. Secondly, yes, I have tested the changes in PTS. So with that out of the way.

There were 2 main changes addressing mDKs this PTS:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Dragonknight

• Ardent Flame
  • Flame Lash (Lava Whip morph): The Power Lash attack from this morph now has a 3 second cooldown.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Dragonknight

• Ardent Flame
  • Flame Lash (Lava Whip morph): Fixed an issue where the Power Lash attack from this morph could not be dodged.

As far as the former point goes:

From PTS testing, implementing this 3s cooldown didn't have a considerable effect on 1v1 scenarios, as the time it takes to normally proc powerlash is somewhere around that 3s mark. However, this presents mDKs with a new issue, which is proccing Flame Lash on openworld opponents. Switching targets mid fight is an important aspect of PvP and not being able to set target B offbalance when needed might prove to be a real obstacle to mDKs overall performance in Open World scenarios. With that said, I think an intuitive solution would be that the 3s cooldown to proc flame lash should be applied on specific targets instead of appling it directly to the casted skill.

As the latter point goes:

So this is where the real issue begins, at least in my opinion. Magicka DKs have one of the most mechanically, well-thought, interesting general playstyles. Where everything synchronized and revolved around the ability of the class to hold it's ground - and even with a lack of mobility - had the tools to be effective through CCs and overall control on the battlefield. Powerlash has been undodgeable for that past 2 years if I recal correctly, and it fit mDKs fluidity and playstyle like a tailored suit.

With that idea in mind, rooting instinctively provokes a rolldodge reaction, and due to how the timing on powerlash procced, it'd hit players that mindlessly rolldodges away from the mDKs grasp - requiring thought process behind fighting a DK and making the game more interestingly rich. Best part of it, is that this mechanic had counterplay and is commonly applied by patient players; which is normally blocking while rooted and roll dodging after successfully blocking the incoming powerlash. This sole mechanic enriched the game making your decisions reflect on the final outcome of the fight and made powerlash resonate with the general playstyle of the class.

Now, as far as PTS testing went: I've dueled a ton. Powerlash simply misses ALL THE TIME, worst part is that if powerlash misses, the skill is put on a 3s cooldown. As a consequence, the main form of DPS is rendered useless against a lot of player. Either way, I tried being optimisitc about that, thinking to myself 'well, I can just hold the powerlash just like mag blades hold to their assassins will, and let it go after the person is done with the dodge'. Oh, was I wrong... When my opponents were rolldodging they commonly rolldodged away from the range of the powerlash and combining that with dks low mobility, the powerlash was wasted. Either way, comparing assassins' will to powerlash is not a fair comparison: powerlash doesn't hit half as hard as an assassins will, powerlash is supposed to offer a sustained form of damage and healing and not a huge burst attack anyways so both skills are used diffrently...

All of this combined ruined the fluidity and the admiration I had for mDKs mechanics. You rooting people (basically telling them to rolldodge) just to have a proc that comes from that very same root dodged. The combination of the root and the undodgeable proc that came after that enriched mDKs playstyle, made it fit, made it fluid. Please understand I'm not here asking for mDKs buffs, I said it before and I'll say it again, mDKs are an exceptional class. We just aren't in a position where we can take nerfs like this. ZOS, please think about the undodgeable lash more thoroughly, there are better solutions for the offbalance change and I bet that skilled and proficient mDKs will open a whole new fan of options to refine this class in this (and other threads).

Thank you for taking your time to read this whoever made it this far. I'm interested in knowing what most of you think.

Kind regards,

Quantum

Couple of questions:

1. Were you perhaps dueling a medium armor dodge roll build? Information about the opponent would be nice, because most people can't afford to dodge roll all (if any) of your Power Lashes.
2. Did you try Empowering Chains when they dodge roll away from you? You say mDKs have "low mobility", but this couldn't be further from the truth. Using Empowering Chains would not only let you close that gap (and deal undodgeable damage) after/during their dodge roll (and get Major Expedition to offset any possible snares on you), but it would also empower the Power Lash.
3. Are you using just root, or stun+root (i.e. Fossilize)?


Also, you say people previously had a "counter" to undodgeable Power Lash, i.e. blocking while rooted.

Medium armor dodge roll builds however cannot afford that, as they not only block very little damage compared to S&B block/mitigation oriented builds, but also run out of stamina doing so.
This is why dodge roll builds are free AP and don't live more than 10-20 seconds against any decent mDK on Live currently.


I do hope they buff the other Whip morph for PvE purposes, but Flame Lash is perfectly fine now.

Can we cool it with the hyperbole? I challenge you to fight a talented medium armor Stamplar on your mDK, for example. It's anything but "free AP." I absolutely chew through mDKs with my bleed-based medium Stamplar in Cyrodiil.

Now if you want to go back to asking for buffs to Medium I would be all for that conversation. But acting like somehow the only issue with Medium armor are Magicka DKs? Please.

Sure, I'm on PTS right now. Feel free to bring your dodge roll builds

You can whisper @DDuke when you're in game.

Oh are we to the point of calling each other out to duel then? And here I was worried that this thread would get derailed by childishness.

Only videos count though

DDuke

Kilandros wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Quantum_V wrote: »

Hey guys,

So just 2 quick disclaimers before I get to the point; if you're going to come to this thread to simply say 'mDKs need to stop QQing' or anything that revolves around that idea, simply don't bother and don't waste your time. You aren't helping anyone and just wasting your own time. With that said, if you've got constructive critism or ideas that diverge or converge from mine, I'd be thankful if you could present us with it. Secondly, yes, I have tested the changes in PTS. So with that out of the way.

There were 2 main changes addressing mDKs this PTS:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Dragonknight

• Ardent Flame
  • Flame Lash (Lava Whip morph): The Power Lash attack from this morph now has a 3 second cooldown.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Dragonknight

• Ardent Flame
  • Flame Lash (Lava Whip morph): Fixed an issue where the Power Lash attack from this morph could not be dodged.

As far as the former point goes:

From PTS testing, implementing this 3s cooldown didn't have a considerable effect on 1v1 scenarios, as the time it takes to normally proc powerlash is somewhere around that 3s mark. However, this presents mDKs with a new issue, which is proccing Flame Lash on openworld opponents. Switching targets mid fight is an important aspect of PvP and not being able to set target B offbalance when needed might prove to be a real obstacle to mDKs overall performance in Open World scenarios. With that said, I think an intuitive solution would be that the 3s cooldown to proc flame lash should be applied on specific targets instead of appling it directly to the casted skill.

As the latter point goes:

So this is where the real issue begins, at least in my opinion. Magicka DKs have one of the most mechanically, well-thought, interesting general playstyles. Where everything synchronized and revolved around the ability of the class to hold it's ground - and even with a lack of mobility - had the tools to be effective through CCs and overall control on the battlefield. Powerlash has been undodgeable for that past 2 years if I recal correctly, and it fit mDKs fluidity and playstyle like a tailored suit.

With that idea in mind, rooting instinctively provokes a rolldodge reaction, and due to how the timing on powerlash procced, it'd hit players that mindlessly rolldodges away from the mDKs grasp - requiring thought process behind fighting a DK and making the game more interestingly rich. Best part of it, is that this mechanic had counterplay and is commonly applied by patient players; which is normally blocking while rooted and roll dodging after successfully blocking the incoming powerlash. This sole mechanic enriched the game making your decisions reflect on the final outcome of the fight and made powerlash resonate with the general playstyle of the class.

Now, as far as PTS testing went: I've dueled a ton. Powerlash simply misses ALL THE TIME, worst part is that if powerlash misses, the skill is put on a 3s cooldown. As a consequence, the main form of DPS is rendered useless against a lot of player. Either way, I tried being optimisitc about that, thinking to myself 'well, I can just hold the powerlash just like mag blades hold to their assassins will, and let it go after the person is done with the dodge'. Oh, was I wrong... When my opponents were rolldodging they commonly rolldodged away from the range of the powerlash and combining that with dks low mobility, the powerlash was wasted. Either way, comparing assassins' will to powerlash is not a fair comparison: powerlash doesn't hit half as hard as an assassins will, powerlash is supposed to offer a sustained form of damage and healing and not a huge burst attack anyways so both skills are used diffrently...

All of this combined ruined the fluidity and the admiration I had for mDKs mechanics. You rooting people (basically telling them to rolldodge) just to have a proc that comes from that very same root dodged. The combination of the root and the undodgeable proc that came after that enriched mDKs playstyle, made it fit, made it fluid. Please understand I'm not here asking for mDKs buffs, I said it before and I'll say it again, mDKs are an exceptional class. We just aren't in a position where we can take nerfs like this. ZOS, please think about the undodgeable lash more thoroughly, there are better solutions for the offbalance change and I bet that skilled and proficient mDKs will open a whole new fan of options to refine this class in this (and other threads).

Thank you for taking your time to read this whoever made it this far. I'm interested in knowing what most of you think.

Kind regards,

Quantum

Couple of questions:

1. Were you perhaps dueling a medium armor dodge roll build? Information about the opponent would be nice, because most people can't afford to dodge roll all (if any) of your Power Lashes.
2. Did you try Empowering Chains when they dodge roll away from you? You say mDKs have "low mobility", but this couldn't be further from the truth. Using Empowering Chains would not only let you close that gap (and deal undodgeable damage) after/during their dodge roll (and get Major Expedition to offset any possible snares on you), but it would also empower the Power Lash.
3. Are you using just root, or stun+root (i.e. Fossilize)?


Also, you say people previously had a "counter" to undodgeable Power Lash, i.e. blocking while rooted.

Medium armor dodge roll builds however cannot afford that, as they not only block very little damage compared to S&B block/mitigation oriented builds, but also run out of stamina doing so.
This is why dodge roll builds are free AP and don't live more than 10-20 seconds against any decent mDK on Live currently.


I do hope they buff the other Whip morph for PvE purposes, but Flame Lash is perfectly fine now.

Can we cool it with the hyperbole? I challenge you to fight a talented medium armor Stamplar on your mDK, for example. It's anything but "free AP." I absolutely chew through mDKs with my bleed-based medium Stamplar in Cyrodiil.

Now if you want to go back to asking for buffs to Medium I would be all for that conversation. But acting like somehow the only issue with Medium armor are Magicka DKs? Please.

Sure, I'm on PTS right now. Feel free to bring your dodge roll builds

You can whisper @DDuke when you're in game.

Oh are we to the point of calling each other out to duel then? And here I was worried that this thread would get derailed by childishness.

Well, you were accusing me of hyperboles - I haven't seen any dodge roll build live more than 20 seconds against my mDK and that's the truth. Medium armor builds don't even live past the first Fossilize without Troll King, which is what lets them live closer to 20 seconds.


But who knows, maybe with the Power Lash changes...

Kilandros

DDuke wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Quantum_V wrote: »

Hey guys,

So just 2 quick disclaimers before I get to the point; if you're going to come to this thread to simply say 'mDKs need to stop QQing' or anything that revolves around that idea, simply don't bother and don't waste your time. You aren't helping anyone and just wasting your own time. With that said, if you've got constructive critism or ideas that diverge or converge from mine, I'd be thankful if you could present us with it. Secondly, yes, I have tested the changes in PTS. So with that out of the way.

There were 2 main changes addressing mDKs this PTS:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Dragonknight

• Ardent Flame
  • Flame Lash (Lava Whip morph): The Power Lash attack from this morph now has a 3 second cooldown.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Dragonknight

• Ardent Flame
  • Flame Lash (Lava Whip morph): Fixed an issue where the Power Lash attack from this morph could not be dodged.

As far as the former point goes:

From PTS testing, implementing this 3s cooldown didn't have a considerable effect on 1v1 scenarios, as the time it takes to normally proc powerlash is somewhere around that 3s mark. However, this presents mDKs with a new issue, which is proccing Flame Lash on openworld opponents. Switching targets mid fight is an important aspect of PvP and not being able to set target B offbalance when needed might prove to be a real obstacle to mDKs overall performance in Open World scenarios. With that said, I think an intuitive solution would be that the 3s cooldown to proc flame lash should be applied on specific targets instead of appling it directly to the casted skill.

As the latter point goes:

So this is where the real issue begins, at least in my opinion. Magicka DKs have one of the most mechanically, well-thought, interesting general playstyles. Where everything synchronized and revolved around the ability of the class to hold it's ground - and even with a lack of mobility - had the tools to be effective through CCs and overall control on the battlefield. Powerlash has been undodgeable for that past 2 years if I recal correctly, and it fit mDKs fluidity and playstyle like a tailored suit.

With that idea in mind, rooting instinctively provokes a rolldodge reaction, and due to how the timing on powerlash procced, it'd hit players that mindlessly rolldodges away from the mDKs grasp - requiring thought process behind fighting a DK and making the game more interestingly rich. Best part of it, is that this mechanic had counterplay and is commonly applied by patient players; which is normally blocking while rooted and roll dodging after successfully blocking the incoming powerlash. This sole mechanic enriched the game making your decisions reflect on the final outcome of the fight and made powerlash resonate with the general playstyle of the class.

Now, as far as PTS testing went: I've dueled a ton. Powerlash simply misses ALL THE TIME, worst part is that if powerlash misses, the skill is put on a 3s cooldown. As a consequence, the main form of DPS is rendered useless against a lot of player. Either way, I tried being optimisitc about that, thinking to myself 'well, I can just hold the powerlash just like mag blades hold to their assassins will, and let it go after the person is done with the dodge'. Oh, was I wrong... When my opponents were rolldodging they commonly rolldodged away from the range of the powerlash and combining that with dks low mobility, the powerlash was wasted. Either way, comparing assassins' will to powerlash is not a fair comparison: powerlash doesn't hit half as hard as an assassins will, powerlash is supposed to offer a sustained form of damage and healing and not a huge burst attack anyways so both skills are used diffrently...

All of this combined ruined the fluidity and the admiration I had for mDKs mechanics. You rooting people (basically telling them to rolldodge) just to have a proc that comes from that very same root dodged. The combination of the root and the undodgeable proc that came after that enriched mDKs playstyle, made it fit, made it fluid. Please understand I'm not here asking for mDKs buffs, I said it before and I'll say it again, mDKs are an exceptional class. We just aren't in a position where we can take nerfs like this. ZOS, please think about the undodgeable lash more thoroughly, there are better solutions for the offbalance change and I bet that skilled and proficient mDKs will open a whole new fan of options to refine this class in this (and other threads).

Thank you for taking your time to read this whoever made it this far. I'm interested in knowing what most of you think.

Kind regards,

Quantum

Couple of questions:

1. Were you perhaps dueling a medium armor dodge roll build? Information about the opponent would be nice, because most people can't afford to dodge roll all (if any) of your Power Lashes.
2. Did you try Empowering Chains when they dodge roll away from you? You say mDKs have "low mobility", but this couldn't be further from the truth. Using Empowering Chains would not only let you close that gap (and deal undodgeable damage) after/during their dodge roll (and get Major Expedition to offset any possible snares on you), but it would also empower the Power Lash.
3. Are you using just root, or stun+root (i.e. Fossilize)?


Also, you say people previously had a "counter" to undodgeable Power Lash, i.e. blocking while rooted.

Medium armor dodge roll builds however cannot afford that, as they not only block very little damage compared to S&B block/mitigation oriented builds, but also run out of stamina doing so.
This is why dodge roll builds are free AP and don't live more than 10-20 seconds against any decent mDK on Live currently.


I do hope they buff the other Whip morph for PvE purposes, but Flame Lash is perfectly fine now.

Can we cool it with the hyperbole? I challenge you to fight a talented medium armor Stamplar on your mDK, for example. It's anything but "free AP." I absolutely chew through mDKs with my bleed-based medium Stamplar in Cyrodiil.

Now if you want to go back to asking for buffs to Medium I would be all for that conversation. But acting like somehow the only issue with Medium armor are Magicka DKs? Please.

Sure, I'm on PTS right now. Feel free to bring your dodge roll builds

You can whisper @DDuke when you're in game.

Oh are we to the point of calling each other out to duel then? And here I was worried that this thread would get derailed by childishness.

Well, you were accusing me of hyperboles - I haven't seen any dodge roll build live more than 20 seconds against my mDK and that's the truth. Medium armor builds don't even live past the first Fossilize without Troll King, which is what lets them live closer to 20 seconds.

If you don't think calling medium armor builds "free AP" isn't hyperbole, then the issue is with how you define hyperbole. Let's keep it civil as Quantum asked and keep the hyperbole to a minimum.

As I said, I agree that medium armor needs help. In fact, I've always agreed with you that medium needs help. But the issue with Medium armor isn't Magicka DKs. And there are, as I said, medium bleed-based builds that can absolutely wreck mDKs who rely on block.

DDuke

Kilandros wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Quantum_V wrote: »

Hey guys,

So just 2 quick disclaimers before I get to the point; if you're going to come to this thread to simply say 'mDKs need to stop QQing' or anything that revolves around that idea, simply don't bother and don't waste your time. You aren't helping anyone and just wasting your own time. With that said, if you've got constructive critism or ideas that diverge or converge from mine, I'd be thankful if you could present us with it. Secondly, yes, I have tested the changes in PTS. So with that out of the way.

There were 2 main changes addressing mDKs this PTS:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Dragonknight

• Ardent Flame
  • Flame Lash (Lava Whip morph): The Power Lash attack from this morph now has a 3 second cooldown.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Dragonknight

• Ardent Flame
  • Flame Lash (Lava Whip morph): Fixed an issue where the Power Lash attack from this morph could not be dodged.

As far as the former point goes:

From PTS testing, implementing this 3s cooldown didn't have a considerable effect on 1v1 scenarios, as the time it takes to normally proc powerlash is somewhere around that 3s mark. However, this presents mDKs with a new issue, which is proccing Flame Lash on openworld opponents. Switching targets mid fight is an important aspect of PvP and not being able to set target B offbalance when needed might prove to be a real obstacle to mDKs overall performance in Open World scenarios. With that said, I think an intuitive solution would be that the 3s cooldown to proc flame lash should be applied on specific targets instead of appling it directly to the casted skill.

As the latter point goes:

So this is where the real issue begins, at least in my opinion. Magicka DKs have one of the most mechanically, well-thought, interesting general playstyles. Where everything synchronized and revolved around the ability of the class to hold it's ground - and even with a lack of mobility - had the tools to be effective through CCs and overall control on the battlefield. Powerlash has been undodgeable for that past 2 years if I recal correctly, and it fit mDKs fluidity and playstyle like a tailored suit.

With that idea in mind, rooting instinctively provokes a rolldodge reaction, and due to how the timing on powerlash procced, it'd hit players that mindlessly rolldodges away from the mDKs grasp - requiring thought process behind fighting a DK and making the game more interestingly rich. Best part of it, is that this mechanic had counterplay and is commonly applied by patient players; which is normally blocking while rooted and roll dodging after successfully blocking the incoming powerlash. This sole mechanic enriched the game making your decisions reflect on the final outcome of the fight and made powerlash resonate with the general playstyle of the class.

Now, as far as PTS testing went: I've dueled a ton. Powerlash simply misses ALL THE TIME, worst part is that if powerlash misses, the skill is put on a 3s cooldown. As a consequence, the main form of DPS is rendered useless against a lot of player. Either way, I tried being optimisitc about that, thinking to myself 'well, I can just hold the powerlash just like mag blades hold to their assassins will, and let it go after the person is done with the dodge'. Oh, was I wrong... When my opponents were rolldodging they commonly rolldodged away from the range of the powerlash and combining that with dks low mobility, the powerlash was wasted. Either way, comparing assassins' will to powerlash is not a fair comparison: powerlash doesn't hit half as hard as an assassins will, powerlash is supposed to offer a sustained form of damage and healing and not a huge burst attack anyways so both skills are used diffrently...

All of this combined ruined the fluidity and the admiration I had for mDKs mechanics. You rooting people (basically telling them to rolldodge) just to have a proc that comes from that very same root dodged. The combination of the root and the undodgeable proc that came after that enriched mDKs playstyle, made it fit, made it fluid. Please understand I'm not here asking for mDKs buffs, I said it before and I'll say it again, mDKs are an exceptional class. We just aren't in a position where we can take nerfs like this. ZOS, please think about the undodgeable lash more thoroughly, there are better solutions for the offbalance change and I bet that skilled and proficient mDKs will open a whole new fan of options to refine this class in this (and other threads).

Thank you for taking your time to read this whoever made it this far. I'm interested in knowing what most of you think.

Kind regards,

Quantum

Couple of questions:

1. Were you perhaps dueling a medium armor dodge roll build? Information about the opponent would be nice, because most people can't afford to dodge roll all (if any) of your Power Lashes.
2. Did you try Empowering Chains when they dodge roll away from you? You say mDKs have "low mobility", but this couldn't be further from the truth. Using Empowering Chains would not only let you close that gap (and deal undodgeable damage) after/during their dodge roll (and get Major Expedition to offset any possible snares on you), but it would also empower the Power Lash.
3. Are you using just root, or stun+root (i.e. Fossilize)?


Also, you say people previously had a "counter" to undodgeable Power Lash, i.e. blocking while rooted.

Medium armor dodge roll builds however cannot afford that, as they not only block very little damage compared to S&B block/mitigation oriented builds, but also run out of stamina doing so.
This is why dodge roll builds are free AP and don't live more than 10-20 seconds against any decent mDK on Live currently.


I do hope they buff the other Whip morph for PvE purposes, but Flame Lash is perfectly fine now.

Can we cool it with the hyperbole? I challenge you to fight a talented medium armor Stamplar on your mDK, for example. It's anything but "free AP." I absolutely chew through mDKs with my bleed-based medium Stamplar in Cyrodiil.

Now if you want to go back to asking for buffs to Medium I would be all for that conversation. But acting like somehow the only issue with Medium armor are Magicka DKs? Please.

Sure, I'm on PTS right now. Feel free to bring your dodge roll builds

You can whisper @DDuke when you're in game.

Oh are we to the point of calling each other out to duel then? And here I was worried that this thread would get derailed by childishness.

Well, you were accusing me of hyperboles - I haven't seen any dodge roll build live more than 20 seconds against my mDK and that's the truth. Medium armor builds don't even live past the first Fossilize without Troll King, which is what lets them live closer to 20 seconds.

If you don't think calling medium armor builds "free AP" isn't hyperbole, then the issue is with how you define hyperbole. Let's keep it civil as Quantum asked and keep the hyperbole to a minimum.

As I said, I agree that medium armor needs help. In fact, I've always agreed with you that medium needs help. But the issue with Medium armor isn't Magicka DKs. And there are, as I said, medium bleed-based builds that can absolutely wreck mDKs who rely on block.

You don't think undodgeable Power Lash is part of the medium armor issue?

This change makes it easier for the dodge roll builds. I won't ever see that as a bad thing, especially when mag DKs are simultaneously buffed against pretty much every other build in the game.


Imagine if Power Lash remained undodgeable. You'd now be able to hit dodge roll builds with two undodgeable Power Lashes (instead of one, which usually kills them anyway) for every Fossilize you cast. It'd be even more broken.


Also, why hasn't anyone mentioned that Flame Lash heal is now twice as strong? Tooltip states it heals over 4 seconds (rather than two) - that's a massive buff.


Stop complaining fellow magicka DKs and look at the big picture.

Lord_Eomer

DK changes makes sense, Mag DK is currently very strong in PVP, Duels and Battlegrounds!

Burning Embers, talons and start lashing!

Hardly they have seen in currently End Game PVE trials! These changes will not make much difference!

This outcry is just to pressure ZOS, Zaan set wil be majorly used by DK.

Power Lash is very OP and need this nerf!

Kilandros

DDuke wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Quantum_V wrote: »

Hey guys,

So just 2 quick disclaimers before I get to the point; if you're going to come to this thread to simply say 'mDKs need to stop QQing' or anything that revolves around that idea, simply don't bother and don't waste your time. You aren't helping anyone and just wasting your own time. With that said, if you've got constructive critism or ideas that diverge or converge from mine, I'd be thankful if you could present us with it. Secondly, yes, I have tested the changes in PTS. So with that out of the way.

There were 2 main changes addressing mDKs this PTS:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Dragonknight

• Ardent Flame
  • Flame Lash (Lava Whip morph): The Power Lash attack from this morph now has a 3 second cooldown.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Dragonknight

• Ardent Flame
  • Flame Lash (Lava Whip morph): Fixed an issue where the Power Lash attack from this morph could not be dodged.

As far as the former point goes:

From PTS testing, implementing this 3s cooldown didn't have a considerable effect on 1v1 scenarios, as the time it takes to normally proc powerlash is somewhere around that 3s mark. However, this presents mDKs with a new issue, which is proccing Flame Lash on openworld opponents. Switching targets mid fight is an important aspect of PvP and not being able to set target B offbalance when needed might prove to be a real obstacle to mDKs overall performance in Open World scenarios. With that said, I think an intuitive solution would be that the 3s cooldown to proc flame lash should be applied on specific targets instead of appling it directly to the casted skill.

As the latter point goes:

So this is where the real issue begins, at least in my opinion. Magicka DKs have one of the most mechanically, well-thought, interesting general playstyles. Where everything synchronized and revolved around the ability of the class to hold it's ground - and even with a lack of mobility - had the tools to be effective through CCs and overall control on the battlefield. Powerlash has been undodgeable for that past 2 years if I recal correctly, and it fit mDKs fluidity and playstyle like a tailored suit.

With that idea in mind, rooting instinctively provokes a rolldodge reaction, and due to how the timing on powerlash procced, it'd hit players that mindlessly rolldodges away from the mDKs grasp - requiring thought process behind fighting a DK and making the game more interestingly rich. Best part of it, is that this mechanic had counterplay and is commonly applied by patient players; which is normally blocking while rooted and roll dodging after successfully blocking the incoming powerlash. This sole mechanic enriched the game making your decisions reflect on the final outcome of the fight and made powerlash resonate with the general playstyle of the class.

Now, as far as PTS testing went: I've dueled a ton. Powerlash simply misses ALL THE TIME, worst part is that if powerlash misses, the skill is put on a 3s cooldown. As a consequence, the main form of DPS is rendered useless against a lot of player. Either way, I tried being optimisitc about that, thinking to myself 'well, I can just hold the powerlash just like mag blades hold to their assassins will, and let it go after the person is done with the dodge'. Oh, was I wrong... When my opponents were rolldodging they commonly rolldodged away from the range of the powerlash and combining that with dks low mobility, the powerlash was wasted. Either way, comparing assassins' will to powerlash is not a fair comparison: powerlash doesn't hit half as hard as an assassins will, powerlash is supposed to offer a sustained form of damage and healing and not a huge burst attack anyways so both skills are used diffrently...

All of this combined ruined the fluidity and the admiration I had for mDKs mechanics. You rooting people (basically telling them to rolldodge) just to have a proc that comes from that very same root dodged. The combination of the root and the undodgeable proc that came after that enriched mDKs playstyle, made it fit, made it fluid. Please understand I'm not here asking for mDKs buffs, I said it before and I'll say it again, mDKs are an exceptional class. We just aren't in a position where we can take nerfs like this. ZOS, please think about the undodgeable lash more thoroughly, there are better solutions for the offbalance change and I bet that skilled and proficient mDKs will open a whole new fan of options to refine this class in this (and other threads).

Thank you for taking your time to read this whoever made it this far. I'm interested in knowing what most of you think.

Kind regards,

Quantum

Couple of questions:

1. Were you perhaps dueling a medium armor dodge roll build? Information about the opponent would be nice, because most people can't afford to dodge roll all (if any) of your Power Lashes.
2. Did you try Empowering Chains when they dodge roll away from you? You say mDKs have "low mobility", but this couldn't be further from the truth. Using Empowering Chains would not only let you close that gap (and deal undodgeable damage) after/during their dodge roll (and get Major Expedition to offset any possible snares on you), but it would also empower the Power Lash.
3. Are you using just root, or stun+root (i.e. Fossilize)?


Also, you say people previously had a "counter" to undodgeable Power Lash, i.e. blocking while rooted.

Medium armor dodge roll builds however cannot afford that, as they not only block very little damage compared to S&B block/mitigation oriented builds, but also run out of stamina doing so.
This is why dodge roll builds are free AP and don't live more than 10-20 seconds against any decent mDK on Live currently.


I do hope they buff the other Whip morph for PvE purposes, but Flame Lash is perfectly fine now.

Can we cool it with the hyperbole? I challenge you to fight a talented medium armor Stamplar on your mDK, for example. It's anything but "free AP." I absolutely chew through mDKs with my bleed-based medium Stamplar in Cyrodiil.

Now if you want to go back to asking for buffs to Medium I would be all for that conversation. But acting like somehow the only issue with Medium armor are Magicka DKs? Please.

Sure, I'm on PTS right now. Feel free to bring your dodge roll builds

You can whisper @DDuke when you're in game.

Oh are we to the point of calling each other out to duel then? And here I was worried that this thread would get derailed by childishness.

Well, you were accusing me of hyperboles - I haven't seen any dodge roll build live more than 20 seconds against my mDK and that's the truth. Medium armor builds don't even live past the first Fossilize without Troll King, which is what lets them live closer to 20 seconds.

If you don't think calling medium armor builds "free AP" isn't hyperbole, then the issue is with how you define hyperbole. Let's keep it civil as Quantum asked and keep the hyperbole to a minimum.

As I said, I agree that medium armor needs help. In fact, I've always agreed with you that medium needs help. But the issue with Medium armor isn't Magicka DKs. And there are, as I said, medium bleed-based builds that can absolutely wreck mDKs who rely on block.

You don't think undodgeable Power Lash is part of the medium armor issue?

This change makes it easier for the dodge roll builds. I won't ever see that as a bad thing, especially when mag DKs are simultaneously buffed against pretty much every other build in the game.


Imagine if Power Lash remained undodgeable. You'd now be able to hit dodge roll builds with two undodgeable Power Lashes (instead of one, which usually kills them anyway) for every Fossilize you cast. It'd be even more broken.


Also, why hasn't anyone mentioned that Flame Lash heal is now twice as strong? Tooltip states it heals over 4 seconds (rather than two) - that's a massive buff.

Stop complaining, fellow magicka DKs.

I think it's a small part of the medium armor issue. I think the effect of Power Lash on the overall health and viability of medium armor is negligible, yes.

I haven't logged into the PTS. Can you clarify the changes made to the heal on Power Lash? On Live, Power Lash heal ticks 3 times over ~2 seconds. Has the overall healing remained the same just extended over a longer duration? That isn't necessarily a buff. Or has the healing effectively doubled?

Edit: Actually I think the Power Lash heal is more like ~3 seconds on Live.

Firstmep

Not just for Mdks sake, but they should put a cooldown on setting players of balance in general. The current pts iteration will empower open world and dueling builds that rely on mostly heavy attack for sustain too much.
A cooldown would help tone those builds down and would help Mdks in open world since you could set different targets off balanced and proc flame lash. Just my 2 cents

Xvorg

We just wanted the skill similar to what it was before the first changes o PTS... not this...

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Wrobel

DDuke

Kilandros wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Quantum_V wrote: »

Hey guys,

So just 2 quick disclaimers before I get to the point; if you're going to come to this thread to simply say 'mDKs need to stop QQing' or anything that revolves around that idea, simply don't bother and don't waste your time. You aren't helping anyone and just wasting your own time. With that said, if you've got constructive critism or ideas that diverge or converge from mine, I'd be thankful if you could present us with it. Secondly, yes, I have tested the changes in PTS. So with that out of the way.

There were 2 main changes addressing mDKs this PTS:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Dragonknight

• Ardent Flame
  • Flame Lash (Lava Whip morph): The Power Lash attack from this morph now has a 3 second cooldown.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Dragonknight

• Ardent Flame
  • Flame Lash (Lava Whip morph): Fixed an issue where the Power Lash attack from this morph could not be dodged.

As far as the former point goes:

From PTS testing, implementing this 3s cooldown didn't have a considerable effect on 1v1 scenarios, as the time it takes to normally proc powerlash is somewhere around that 3s mark. However, this presents mDKs with a new issue, which is proccing Flame Lash on openworld opponents. Switching targets mid fight is an important aspect of PvP and not being able to set target B offbalance when needed might prove to be a real obstacle to mDKs overall performance in Open World scenarios. With that said, I think an intuitive solution would be that the 3s cooldown to proc flame lash should be applied on specific targets instead of appling it directly to the casted skill.

As the latter point goes:

So this is where the real issue begins, at least in my opinion. Magicka DKs have one of the most mechanically, well-thought, interesting general playstyles. Where everything synchronized and revolved around the ability of the class to hold it's ground - and even with a lack of mobility - had the tools to be effective through CCs and overall control on the battlefield. Powerlash has been undodgeable for that past 2 years if I recal correctly, and it fit mDKs fluidity and playstyle like a tailored suit.

With that idea in mind, rooting instinctively provokes a rolldodge reaction, and due to how the timing on powerlash procced, it'd hit players that mindlessly rolldodges away from the mDKs grasp - requiring thought process behind fighting a DK and making the game more interestingly rich. Best part of it, is that this mechanic had counterplay and is commonly applied by patient players; which is normally blocking while rooted and roll dodging after successfully blocking the incoming powerlash. This sole mechanic enriched the game making your decisions reflect on the final outcome of the fight and made powerlash resonate with the general playstyle of the class.

Now, as far as PTS testing went: I've dueled a ton. Powerlash simply misses ALL THE TIME, worst part is that if powerlash misses, the skill is put on a 3s cooldown. As a consequence, the main form of DPS is rendered useless against a lot of player. Either way, I tried being optimisitc about that, thinking to myself 'well, I can just hold the powerlash just like mag blades hold to their assassins will, and let it go after the person is done with the dodge'. Oh, was I wrong... When my opponents were rolldodging they commonly rolldodged away from the range of the powerlash and combining that with dks low mobility, the powerlash was wasted. Either way, comparing assassins' will to powerlash is not a fair comparison: powerlash doesn't hit half as hard as an assassins will, powerlash is supposed to offer a sustained form of damage and healing and not a huge burst attack anyways so both skills are used diffrently...

All of this combined ruined the fluidity and the admiration I had for mDKs mechanics. You rooting people (basically telling them to rolldodge) just to have a proc that comes from that very same root dodged. The combination of the root and the undodgeable proc that came after that enriched mDKs playstyle, made it fit, made it fluid. Please understand I'm not here asking for mDKs buffs, I said it before and I'll say it again, mDKs are an exceptional class. We just aren't in a position where we can take nerfs like this. ZOS, please think about the undodgeable lash more thoroughly, there are better solutions for the offbalance change and I bet that skilled and proficient mDKs will open a whole new fan of options to refine this class in this (and other threads).

Thank you for taking your time to read this whoever made it this far. I'm interested in knowing what most of you think.

Kind regards,

Quantum

Couple of questions:

1. Were you perhaps dueling a medium armor dodge roll build? Information about the opponent would be nice, because most people can't afford to dodge roll all (if any) of your Power Lashes.
2. Did you try Empowering Chains when they dodge roll away from you? You say mDKs have "low mobility", but this couldn't be further from the truth. Using Empowering Chains would not only let you close that gap (and deal undodgeable damage) after/during their dodge roll (and get Major Expedition to offset any possible snares on you), but it would also empower the Power Lash.
3. Are you using just root, or stun+root (i.e. Fossilize)?


Also, you say people previously had a "counter" to undodgeable Power Lash, i.e. blocking while rooted.

Medium armor dodge roll builds however cannot afford that, as they not only block very little damage compared to S&B block/mitigation oriented builds, but also run out of stamina doing so.
This is why dodge roll builds are free AP and don't live more than 10-20 seconds against any decent mDK on Live currently.


I do hope they buff the other Whip morph for PvE purposes, but Flame Lash is perfectly fine now.

Can we cool it with the hyperbole? I challenge you to fight a talented medium armor Stamplar on your mDK, for example. It's anything but "free AP." I absolutely chew through mDKs with my bleed-based medium Stamplar in Cyrodiil.

Now if you want to go back to asking for buffs to Medium I would be all for that conversation. But acting like somehow the only issue with Medium armor are Magicka DKs? Please.

Sure, I'm on PTS right now. Feel free to bring your dodge roll builds

You can whisper @DDuke when you're in game.

Oh are we to the point of calling each other out to duel then? And here I was worried that this thread would get derailed by childishness.

Well, you were accusing me of hyperboles - I haven't seen any dodge roll build live more than 20 seconds against my mDK and that's the truth. Medium armor builds don't even live past the first Fossilize without Troll King, which is what lets them live closer to 20 seconds.

If you don't think calling medium armor builds "free AP" isn't hyperbole, then the issue is with how you define hyperbole. Let's keep it civil as Quantum asked and keep the hyperbole to a minimum.

As I said, I agree that medium armor needs help. In fact, I've always agreed with you that medium needs help. But the issue with Medium armor isn't Magicka DKs. And there are, as I said, medium bleed-based builds that can absolutely wreck mDKs who rely on block.

You don't think undodgeable Power Lash is part of the medium armor issue?

This change makes it easier for the dodge roll builds. I won't ever see that as a bad thing, especially when mag DKs are simultaneously buffed against pretty much every other build in the game.


Imagine if Power Lash remained undodgeable. You'd now be able to hit dodge roll builds with two undodgeable Power Lashes (instead of one, which usually kills them anyway) for every Fossilize you cast. It'd be even more broken.


Also, why hasn't anyone mentioned that Flame Lash heal is now twice as strong? Tooltip states it heals over 4 seconds (rather than two) - that's a massive buff.

Stop complaining, fellow magicka DKs.

I think it's a small part of the medium armor issue. I think the effect of Power Lash on the overall health and viability of medium armor is negligible, yes.

I haven't logged into the PTS. Can you clarify the changes made to the heal on Power Lash? On Live, Power Lash heal ticks 3 times over ~2 seconds. Has the overall healing remained the same just extended over a longer duration? That isn't necessarily a buff. Or has the healing effectively doubled?

I get 15k tooltip on my Power Lash that I can Empower by another 20% - that's more than a "small part of the medium armor issue" when just one of those takes almost half a medium armor character's health bar and there's nothing they can do about it (until now that is).


And yes, Power Lash heal is now twice as strong and heals over 4 seconds... With 3s cooldown that means you can have a permanent uptime on a HoT that heals twice as much as Vigor.

Atleast it won't make dodge roll builds feel miserable anymore, but boy is that strong vs S&B block builds especially...

Vesper_BR

Can someone post one screen of the power lash tooltip from this pts? So we can see what's going on about the healing... If it is 4s and the heals remains the same... We HAD A HUUUGE HIDDEN NERF!

Quantum_V

DDuke wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Quantum_V wrote: »

Hey guys,

So just 2 quick disclaimers before I get to the point; if you're going to come to this thread to simply say 'mDKs need to stop QQing' or anything that revolves around that idea, simply don't bother and don't waste your time. You aren't helping anyone and just wasting your own time. With that said, if you've got constructive critism or ideas that diverge or converge from mine, I'd be thankful if you could present us with it. Secondly, yes, I have tested the changes in PTS. So with that out of the way.

There were 2 main changes addressing mDKs this PTS:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Dragonknight

• Ardent Flame
  • Flame Lash (Lava Whip morph): The Power Lash attack from this morph now has a 3 second cooldown.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Dragonknight

• Ardent Flame
  • Flame Lash (Lava Whip morph): Fixed an issue where the Power Lash attack from this morph could not be dodged.

As far as the former point goes:

From PTS testing, implementing this 3s cooldown didn't have a considerable effect on 1v1 scenarios, as the time it takes to normally proc powerlash is somewhere around that 3s mark. However, this presents mDKs with a new issue, which is proccing Flame Lash on openworld opponents. Switching targets mid fight is an important aspect of PvP and not being able to set target B offbalance when needed might prove to be a real obstacle to mDKs overall performance in Open World scenarios. With that said, I think an intuitive solution would be that the 3s cooldown to proc flame lash should be applied on specific targets instead of appling it directly to the casted skill.

As the latter point goes:

So this is where the real issue begins, at least in my opinion. Magicka DKs have one of the most mechanically, well-thought, interesting general playstyles. Where everything synchronized and revolved around the ability of the class to hold it's ground - and even with a lack of mobility - had the tools to be effective through CCs and overall control on the battlefield. Powerlash has been undodgeable for that past 2 years if I recal correctly, and it fit mDKs fluidity and playstyle like a tailored suit.

With that idea in mind, rooting instinctively provokes a rolldodge reaction, and due to how the timing on powerlash procced, it'd hit players that mindlessly rolldodges away from the mDKs grasp - requiring thought process behind fighting a DK and making the game more interestingly rich. Best part of it, is that this mechanic had counterplay and is commonly applied by patient players; which is normally blocking while rooted and roll dodging after successfully blocking the incoming powerlash. This sole mechanic enriched the game making your decisions reflect on the final outcome of the fight and made powerlash resonate with the general playstyle of the class.

Now, as far as PTS testing went: I've dueled a ton. Powerlash simply misses ALL THE TIME, worst part is that if powerlash misses, the skill is put on a 3s cooldown. As a consequence, the main form of DPS is rendered useless against a lot of player. Either way, I tried being optimisitc about that, thinking to myself 'well, I can just hold the powerlash just like mag blades hold to their assassins will, and let it go after the person is done with the dodge'. Oh, was I wrong... When my opponents were rolldodging they commonly rolldodged away from the range of the powerlash and combining that with dks low mobility, the powerlash was wasted. Either way, comparing assassins' will to powerlash is not a fair comparison: powerlash doesn't hit half as hard as an assassins will, powerlash is supposed to offer a sustained form of damage and healing and not a huge burst attack anyways so both skills are used diffrently...

All of this combined ruined the fluidity and the admiration I had for mDKs mechanics. You rooting people (basically telling them to rolldodge) just to have a proc that comes from that very same root dodged. The combination of the root and the undodgeable proc that came after that enriched mDKs playstyle, made it fit, made it fluid. Please understand I'm not here asking for mDKs buffs, I said it before and I'll say it again, mDKs are an exceptional class. We just aren't in a position where we can take nerfs like this. ZOS, please think about the undodgeable lash more thoroughly, there are better solutions for the offbalance change and I bet that skilled and proficient mDKs will open a whole new fan of options to refine this class in this (and other threads).

Thank you for taking your time to read this whoever made it this far. I'm interested in knowing what most of you think.

Kind regards,

Quantum

Couple of questions:

1. Were you perhaps dueling a medium armor dodge roll build? Information about the opponent would be nice, because most people can't afford to dodge roll all (if any) of your Power Lashes.
2. Did you try Empowering Chains when they dodge roll away from you? You say mDKs have "low mobility", but this couldn't be further from the truth. Using Empowering Chains would not only let you close that gap (and deal undodgeable damage) after/during their dodge roll (and get Major Expedition to offset any possible snares on you), but it would also empower the Power Lash.
3. Are you using just root, or stun+root (i.e. Fossilize)?


Also, you say people previously had a "counter" to undodgeable Power Lash, i.e. blocking while rooted.

Medium armor dodge roll builds however cannot afford that, as they not only block very little damage compared to S&B block/mitigation oriented builds, but also run out of stamina doing so.
This is why dodge roll builds are free AP and don't live more than 10-20 seconds against any decent mDK on Live currently.


I do hope they buff the other Whip morph for PvE purposes, but Flame Lash is perfectly fine now.

Can we cool it with the hyperbole? I challenge you to fight a talented medium armor Stamplar on your mDK, for example. It's anything but "free AP." I absolutely chew through mDKs with my bleed-based medium Stamplar in Cyrodiil.

Now if you want to go back to asking for buffs to Medium I would be all for that conversation. But acting like somehow the only issue with Medium armor are Magicka DKs? Please.

Sure, I'm on PTS right now. Feel free to bring your dodge roll builds

You can whisper @DDuke when you're in game.

Oh are we to the point of calling each other out to duel then? And here I was worried that this thread would get derailed by childishness.

Well, you were accusing me of hyperboles - I haven't seen any dodge roll build live more than 20 seconds against my mDK and that's the truth. Medium armor builds don't even live past the first Fossilize without Troll King, which is what lets them live closer to 20 seconds.

If you don't think calling medium armor builds "free AP" isn't hyperbole, then the issue is with how you define hyperbole. Let's keep it civil as Quantum asked and keep the hyperbole to a minimum.

As I said, I agree that medium armor needs help. In fact, I've always agreed with you that medium needs help. But the issue with Medium armor isn't Magicka DKs. And there are, as I said, medium bleed-based builds that can absolutely wreck mDKs who rely on block.

You don't think undodgeable Power Lash is part of the medium armor issue?

This change makes it easier for the dodge roll builds. I won't ever see that as a bad thing, especially when mag DKs are simultaneously buffed against pretty much every other build in the game.


Imagine if Power Lash remained undodgeable. You'd now be able to hit dodge roll builds with two undodgeable Power Lashes (instead of one, which usually kills them anyway) for every Fossilize you cast. It'd be even more broken.


Also, why hasn't anyone mentioned that Flame Lash heal is now twice as strong? Tooltip states it heals over 4 seconds (rather than two) - that's a massive buff.


Stop complaining fellow magicka DKs and look at the big picture.

From PTS testing, and I've been testing it for hours now. I haven't gotten A SINGLE double lash proc. Not sure if it's glitched or what, but as the first one is always missing, the second one that's supposed to come up never does.

DDuke

Vesper_BR wrote: »

Can someone post one screen of the power lash tooltip from this pts? So we can see what's going on about the healing... If it is 4s and the heals remains the same... We HAD A HUUUGE HIDDEN NERF!

Vosital

Why are dumb birds undodgeable, but whips aren't? It makes no sense. Whip should obviously be undodgeable.

Quantum_V

And in all honesty, I've seen mDKs (myself included) getting shred to pieces by good stam blades that know how to move, know how to sustain. This is more than a stamblade issue.

Joy_Division

I don't think single target non-channeled skills should be dodgeable. Cliff Racer as is should have never been added to the game.

I don't play a medium armor build, so it's not like this opinion is to preserve my build or anything.

I don't think rolling out of talons in mindless. I think that's the proper counter as opposed to going head to head Vs. a class designed to fight that way. Roll dodge is meant to make skills miss, even powerful ones that have limited uptime/procs, I think it has to otherwise it's a bad form of defense.

DKs might disagree with me and be annoyed that this patch is just a big fat nerf to them in both PvE and PvP. It sucks that a class gets nerfed when it's not top tier. But should ZoS allow questionable mechanics to persist just to preserve that power? So I play a templar, and I hated that ZoS changed purify that it no longer purged incoming projectiles. And I hated that ZoS changed Toppling Charge so it couldn't hit dodge rollers. But it's probably best for the game overall that it did so. What I think the issue here is, those abilities were just nerfed without any accompany buff in other areas or counterweight to help ensure the class wasn't just flat out nerfed. Worse, ZoS not only took away the (unintended?) features of Purify and Toppling Charge, they later nerfed them even more. That is what is ultimately frustrating.

Zos is doing that here to DKs. It was dubious that a PVE DK could infinitely spam a powerful skill that made them invincible simply by having a healer use a lightning staff with a charged enchant. OK fine, that's sort of dumb get rid of it. But ZoS is doing so without doing anything else to help magicka DK sustain or DPS, both of which are relatively terrible.

ZoS is removing the undodgable flame lash. Understandable. But nothing else in the DK toolkit is being buff or reformed to ensure their standing in PvP isn't just nerfed.