[PvP] mDK changes in 3.3.2

Kilandros

DDuke wrote: »

Quantum_V wrote: »

So from testing in PTS:

magDK is not bad - lets get that out of the way.

BUT

mDK feels clunky, doesn't feel smooth at all, double powerlashing is a mechanic that you rarely see specially when your opponent (specially magsorcs) realize that if they dodge the first powerlash they're good. mDK playstyle was changed significantly and it was just a matter of time until the stamplars and stamblades I was fighting to realize that dodging backwards or dodging and then immediately blocking was an effective way to quickly shutdown mDKs offensive windows.

There is no magicka sorc in the universe that can sustain dodging & CC breaking every 7s, especially now that Immovable potions are nerfed. If you find that a sorc has the impulse to dodge Fossilize->FL->PL, then what you can do is hold that PL for a second, cast embers , chains, rebuff/whatever & watch that sorc spend 1/4th of his stamina bar dodge rolling for nothing.

It's about outplaying your opponent now rather than having guaranteed damage, and the exact same goes for stamina builds as well.

I'm still missing lots of PLs as well on PTS (around 50% of them) vs stamina builds, but it's all about adjusting, getting the Fossilize->FL->PL rotation out of your muscle memory & replacing it with something else. Stam build CC breaks, rolls backwards?

You leap (lands before dodge roll animation ends)->LA+PL & if they're still alive they're at 20-30% health, low stam and about to die to your next Fossilize if they've no Rally built up.

Treat PL more as a proc and less as some guaranteed burst. Just like Assassin's Will, Frags etc, land them when you know (or are very certain atleast) you can land them.

Takes some practice, but that's a good thing.

You can't really treat PL like Assassin's Will or Frag because it's tied to an applied status effect. I can't just hold off-balance on an enemy like you can hold Assassin's Will until you're ready to use it. Once off-balance is gone, PL is gone.

You're so focused on duels that you're losing sight of the forest for the trees.

DDuke

Kilandros wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Are mag DKs being nerfed?

No.


Anyone who has actually tested the Power Lash changes on PTS can say it isn't a nerf compared to Live. Only vs dodge rollers will you land less Power Lashes (and even dodged Power Lashes provide the heal portion on PTS btw).

Vs.literally every other build (some of which magicka DKs actually had problems against on Live) it's an enormous buff.


I've made this point so, so many times yet all we get are these "sky is falling" posts and threads.

---

I'm spending hours on PTS every day, all I'm seeing is how much better DK does vs builds it didn't just roflstomp before, how it plays exactly as it did before.

No, your "DK identity" hasn't changed, your "playstyle" hasn't changed - nothing has changed except maybe (not always) your rotation vs dodge rollers.


If there are negative effects to these changes, why won't anyone show me on PTS?


A whole lot of hysteria over changes that probably none of the QQers have actually bothered to test or theorycraft around.

I don't understand why you keep proclaiming your PTS experiences as gospel here. On PTS all we can do to test stuff is duel since there aren't enough players to test open-world PvP. Dueling is a novelty game mode that the game should not be balanced around.

So you can't really say with certainty that the DK playstyle hasn't changed since you can't test the DK playstyle in a true open world environment. If you need an example of when the PTS testers got it wrong based solely on the limited scope of dueling, just see, e.g., the Destro Ult fiasco when that ultimate was heralded as trash that would never be used by anyone ever.

So you should refine your argument to say that DK is performing roughly the same in duels. That would be fine to say. But for many players (myself and I suspect the OP), duels aren't really what we're focusing on when we look at balance. We focus on how a build performs in open world. And open world requires mechanics that are generally not needed in duels like mobility, escapes, and burst. Duels are great for a mDK where I don't need to slot mist and I only need to slot single-target abilities. But my mDK dueling build and open-world builds are miles apart. You need to start distinguishing between those two types of play.

Well, that's where I think a bit differently.

Every build begins from 1v1 testing - if you can't survive a 1v1 encounter, you won't survive a 1vX encounter either should that person you lost 1v1 to appear.

...and it works the other way around too: if you can kill people in 1v1 with something, then you can kill people in 1vX as well provided the rest of your build can handle additional pressure.


I see no negative changes to DK in that regard in this upcoming update - if anything open world non-pet magicka sorcs for example (very popular in Cyrodiil) will never be able to take mDK pressure anymore with the more frequent Power Lashes (if you've Chain slotted to gap close->Fossilize every time they BoL).

I use my build (without any skill changes) in both duels and open world btw.

Kilandros

DDuke wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Are mag DKs being nerfed?

No.


Anyone who has actually tested the Power Lash changes on PTS can say it isn't a nerf compared to Live. Only vs dodge rollers will you land less Power Lashes (and even dodged Power Lashes provide the heal portion on PTS btw).

Vs.literally every other build (some of which magicka DKs actually had problems against on Live) it's an enormous buff.


I've made this point so, so many times yet all we get are these "sky is falling" posts and threads.

---

I'm spending hours on PTS every day, all I'm seeing is how much better DK does vs builds it didn't just roflstomp before, how it plays exactly as it did before.

No, your "DK identity" hasn't changed, your "playstyle" hasn't changed - nothing has changed except maybe (not always) your rotation vs dodge rollers.


If there are negative effects to these changes, why won't anyone show me on PTS?


A whole lot of hysteria over changes that probably none of the QQers have actually bothered to test or theorycraft around.

I don't understand why you keep proclaiming your PTS experiences as gospel here. On PTS all we can do to test stuff is duel since there aren't enough players to test open-world PvP. Dueling is a novelty game mode that the game should not be balanced around.

So you can't really say with certainty that the DK playstyle hasn't changed since you can't test the DK playstyle in a true open world environment. If you need an example of when the PTS testers got it wrong based solely on the limited scope of dueling, just see, e.g., the Destro Ult fiasco when that ultimate was heralded as trash that would never be used by anyone ever.

So you should refine your argument to say that DK is performing roughly the same in duels. That would be fine to say. But for many players (myself and I suspect the OP), duels aren't really what we're focusing on when we look at balance. We focus on how a build performs in open world. And open world requires mechanics that are generally not needed in duels like mobility, escapes, and burst. Duels are great for a mDK where I don't need to slot mist and I only need to slot single-target abilities. But my mDK dueling build and open-world builds are miles apart. You need to start distinguishing between those two types of play.

Well, that's where I think a bit differently.

Every build begins from 1v1 testing - if you can't survive a 1v1 encounter, you won't survive a 1vX encounter either should that person you lost 1v1 to appear.

...and it works the other way around too: if you can kill people in 1v1 with something, then you can kill people in 1vX as well provided the rest of your build can handle additional pressure.


I see no negative changes to DK in that regard in this upcoming update - if anything open world non-pet magicka sorcs for example (very popular in Cyrodiil) will never be able to take mDK pressure anymore with the more frequent Power Lashes (if you've Chain slotted to gap close->Fossilize every time they BoL).

You're making all sorts of bizarre assumptions and I don't quite know why. People run dueling builds and then people run open world builds. How my dueling build performs against your dueling build tells me next to nothing about how my dueling build would perform against your open-world build, and vice versa. Just to give a rudimentary example, but if my mDK is dueling your Stamblade, I don't need to worry about my mobility because we'd be confined to the dueling area. But if we met in open world and you decided to kite me and I had my low-mobility dueling build on, I wouldn't be able to catch you unless I use sprint in which case you'd win once I depleted my stamina.

It's silly to try to compare the two types of game mode. There's really no comparison. 1v1 testing is a good way to look at numbers, sure, but it tells you virtually nothing about how a class performs in dynamic open-world Cyrodiil. Case in point: mDK has always--ALWAYS--been one of the strongest dueling classes but since 1.6 it's been one of the weakest open-world specs. How can that be? Because duels and open world are completely different.

I appreciate the work you've done on PTS and your insight into dueling on the PTS. But that's all it is--insight into dueling. But you've started commenting on the overarching mDK playstyle based simply on PTS duels which is completely non sequitur. The truth is, we won't really know for sure how mDK performs in open world with these changes until this patch goes Live. That's an unfortunate reality of the lack of players participating in each PTS cycle. But knowing that, we can do our part to acknowledge that while dueling says A LOT about class balance with respect to dueling, it says very little with respect to class balance in open world Cyrodiil.

DDuke

Kilandros wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Quantum_V wrote: »

So from testing in PTS:

magDK is not bad - lets get that out of the way.

BUT

mDK feels clunky, doesn't feel smooth at all, double powerlashing is a mechanic that you rarely see specially when your opponent (specially magsorcs) realize that if they dodge the first powerlash they're good. mDK playstyle was changed significantly and it was just a matter of time until the stamplars and stamblades I was fighting to realize that dodging backwards or dodging and then immediately blocking was an effective way to quickly shutdown mDKs offensive windows.

There is no magicka sorc in the universe that can sustain dodging & CC breaking every 7s, especially now that Immovable potions are nerfed. If you find that a sorc has the impulse to dodge Fossilize->FL->PL, then what you can do is hold that PL for a second, cast embers , chains, rebuff/whatever & watch that sorc spend 1/4th of his stamina bar dodge rolling for nothing.

It's about outplaying your opponent now rather than having guaranteed damage, and the exact same goes for stamina builds as well.

I'm still missing lots of PLs as well on PTS (around 50% of them) vs stamina builds, but it's all about adjusting, getting the Fossilize->FL->PL rotation out of your muscle memory & replacing it with something else. Stam build CC breaks, rolls backwards?

You leap (lands before dodge roll animation ends)->LA+PL & if they're still alive they're at 20-30% health, low stam and about to die to your next Fossilize if they've no Rally built up.

Treat PL more as a proc and less as some guaranteed burst. Just like Assassin's Will, Frags etc, land them when you know (or are very certain atleast) you can land them.

Takes some practice, but that's a good thing.

You can't really treat PL like Assassin's Will or Frag because it's tied to an applied status effect. I can't just hold off-balance on an enemy like you can hold Assassin's Will until you're ready to use it. Once off-balance is gone, PL is gone.

You're so focused on duels that you're losing sight of the forest for the trees.

Once Off Balance is gone, you can Fossilize->FL again (and that's even better than using Power Lash).

And you can't hold Assassin's Will forever either (on Live), the buff has a 20s duration when cast, likely around 12-13s left once you've managed to land all those light attacks. Pretty hefty cost on the skill too (Power Lash is still free, as it should be).

Frag on the other hand is practically a dead skill on your bar when it isn't procced, and the proc actually has around 6s duration before it deactivates.


I think both PL & Assassin's Will are "balanced" procs at the moment - Frags could use some love.

DDuke

Kilandros wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Are mag DKs being nerfed?

No.


Anyone who has actually tested the Power Lash changes on PTS can say it isn't a nerf compared to Live. Only vs dodge rollers will you land less Power Lashes (and even dodged Power Lashes provide the heal portion on PTS btw).

Vs.literally every other build (some of which magicka DKs actually had problems against on Live) it's an enormous buff.


I've made this point so, so many times yet all we get are these "sky is falling" posts and threads.

---

I'm spending hours on PTS every day, all I'm seeing is how much better DK does vs builds it didn't just roflstomp before, how it plays exactly as it did before.

No, your "DK identity" hasn't changed, your "playstyle" hasn't changed - nothing has changed except maybe (not always) your rotation vs dodge rollers.


If there are negative effects to these changes, why won't anyone show me on PTS?


A whole lot of hysteria over changes that probably none of the QQers have actually bothered to test or theorycraft around.

I don't understand why you keep proclaiming your PTS experiences as gospel here. On PTS all we can do to test stuff is duel since there aren't enough players to test open-world PvP. Dueling is a novelty game mode that the game should not be balanced around.

So you can't really say with certainty that the DK playstyle hasn't changed since you can't test the DK playstyle in a true open world environment. If you need an example of when the PTS testers got it wrong based solely on the limited scope of dueling, just see, e.g., the Destro Ult fiasco when that ultimate was heralded as trash that would never be used by anyone ever.

So you should refine your argument to say that DK is performing roughly the same in duels. That would be fine to say. But for many players (myself and I suspect the OP), duels aren't really what we're focusing on when we look at balance. We focus on how a build performs in open world. And open world requires mechanics that are generally not needed in duels like mobility, escapes, and burst. Duels are great for a mDK where I don't need to slot mist and I only need to slot single-target abilities. But my mDK dueling build and open-world builds are miles apart. You need to start distinguishing between those two types of play.

Well, that's where I think a bit differently.

Every build begins from 1v1 testing - if you can't survive a 1v1 encounter, you won't survive a 1vX encounter either should that person you lost 1v1 to appear.

...and it works the other way around too: if you can kill people in 1v1 with something, then you can kill people in 1vX as well provided the rest of your build can handle additional pressure.


I see no negative changes to DK in that regard in this upcoming update - if anything open world non-pet magicka sorcs for example (very popular in Cyrodiil) will never be able to take mDK pressure anymore with the more frequent Power Lashes (if you've Chain slotted to gap close->Fossilize every time they BoL).

You're making all sorts of bizarre assumptions and I don't quite know why. People run dueling builds and then people run open world builds. How my dueling build performs against your dueling build tells me next to nothing about how my dueling build would perform against your open-world build, and vice versa. Just to give a rudimentary example, but if my mDK is dueling your Stamblade, I don't need to worry about my mobility because we'd be confined to the dueling area. But if we met in open world and you decided to kite me and I had my low-mobility dueling build on, I wouldn't be able to catch you unless I use sprint in which case you'd win once I depleted my stamina.

It's silly to try to compare the two types of game mode. There's really no comparison. 1v1 testing is a good way to look at numbers, sure, but it tells you virtually nothing about how a class performs in dynamic open-world Cyrodiil. Case in point: mDK has always--ALWAYS--been one of the strongest dueling classes but since 1.5 it's been one of the weakest open-world specs. How can that be? Because duels and open world are completely different.

I appreciate the work you've done on PTS and your insight into dueling on the PTS. But that's all it is--insight into dueling. But you've started commenting on the overarching mDK playstyle based simply on PTS duels which is completely non sequitur. The truth is, we won't really know for sure how mDK performs in open world with these changes until this patch goes Live. That's an unfortunate reality of the lack of players participating in each PTS cycle. But knowing that, we can do our part to acknowledge that while dueling says A LOT about class balance with respect to dueling, it says very little with respect to class balance in open world Cyrodiil.

You're right.

I can't say for certain how open world will work until I actually play open world (not an option on PTS).

I'm wrong sometimes when it comes to predicting meta & what builds could/couldn't work (let's just say I have a graveyard of failed experiments).


"We'll see" is the best anyone can say I suppose, so we should all refrain from the "DK is dead" "DK is nerfed" "DK is buffed" comments.


I do have to disagree about mDK being bad in open world currently though, I'm having far more success with it than I could ever hope to have on a stamblade for instance due to lack of "counter builds" that could ruin my gameplay experience.

Kilandros

DDuke wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Are mag DKs being nerfed?

No.


Anyone who has actually tested the Power Lash changes on PTS can say it isn't a nerf compared to Live. Only vs dodge rollers will you land less Power Lashes (and even dodged Power Lashes provide the heal portion on PTS btw).

Vs.literally every other build (some of which magicka DKs actually had problems against on Live) it's an enormous buff.


I've made this point so, so many times yet all we get are these "sky is falling" posts and threads.

---

I'm spending hours on PTS every day, all I'm seeing is how much better DK does vs builds it didn't just roflstomp before, how it plays exactly as it did before.

No, your "DK identity" hasn't changed, your "playstyle" hasn't changed - nothing has changed except maybe (not always) your rotation vs dodge rollers.


If there are negative effects to these changes, why won't anyone show me on PTS?


A whole lot of hysteria over changes that probably none of the QQers have actually bothered to test or theorycraft around.

I don't understand why you keep proclaiming your PTS experiences as gospel here. On PTS all we can do to test stuff is duel since there aren't enough players to test open-world PvP. Dueling is a novelty game mode that the game should not be balanced around.

So you can't really say with certainty that the DK playstyle hasn't changed since you can't test the DK playstyle in a true open world environment. If you need an example of when the PTS testers got it wrong based solely on the limited scope of dueling, just see, e.g., the Destro Ult fiasco when that ultimate was heralded as trash that would never be used by anyone ever.

So you should refine your argument to say that DK is performing roughly the same in duels. That would be fine to say. But for many players (myself and I suspect the OP), duels aren't really what we're focusing on when we look at balance. We focus on how a build performs in open world. And open world requires mechanics that are generally not needed in duels like mobility, escapes, and burst. Duels are great for a mDK where I don't need to slot mist and I only need to slot single-target abilities. But my mDK dueling build and open-world builds are miles apart. You need to start distinguishing between those two types of play.

Well, that's where I think a bit differently.

Every build begins from 1v1 testing - if you can't survive a 1v1 encounter, you won't survive a 1vX encounter either should that person you lost 1v1 to appear.

...and it works the other way around too: if you can kill people in 1v1 with something, then you can kill people in 1vX as well provided the rest of your build can handle additional pressure.


I see no negative changes to DK in that regard in this upcoming update - if anything open world non-pet magicka sorcs for example (very popular in Cyrodiil) will never be able to take mDK pressure anymore with the more frequent Power Lashes (if you've Chain slotted to gap close->Fossilize every time they BoL).

You're making all sorts of bizarre assumptions and I don't quite know why. People run dueling builds and then people run open world builds. How my dueling build performs against your dueling build tells me next to nothing about how my dueling build would perform against your open-world build, and vice versa. Just to give a rudimentary example, but if my mDK is dueling your Stamblade, I don't need to worry about my mobility because we'd be confined to the dueling area. But if we met in open world and you decided to kite me and I had my low-mobility dueling build on, I wouldn't be able to catch you unless I use sprint in which case you'd win once I depleted my stamina.

It's silly to try to compare the two types of game mode. There's really no comparison. 1v1 testing is a good way to look at numbers, sure, but it tells you virtually nothing about how a class performs in dynamic open-world Cyrodiil. Case in point: mDK has always--ALWAYS--been one of the strongest dueling classes but since 1.5 it's been one of the weakest open-world specs. How can that be? Because duels and open world are completely different.

I appreciate the work you've done on PTS and your insight into dueling on the PTS. But that's all it is--insight into dueling. But you've started commenting on the overarching mDK playstyle based simply on PTS duels which is completely non sequitur. The truth is, we won't really know for sure how mDK performs in open world with these changes until this patch goes Live. That's an unfortunate reality of the lack of players participating in each PTS cycle. But knowing that, we can do our part to acknowledge that while dueling says A LOT about class balance with respect to dueling, it says very little with respect to class balance in open world Cyrodiil.

You're right.

I can't say for certain how open world will work until I actually play open world (not an option on PTS).

I'm wrong sometimes when it comes to predicting meta & what builds could/couldn't work (let's just say I have a graveyard of failed experiments).


"We'll see" is the best anyone can say I suppose, so we should all refrain from the "DK is dead" "DK is nerfed" "DK is buffed" comments.


I do have to disagree about mDK being bad in open world currently though, I'm having far more success with it than I could ever hope to have on a stamblade for instance due to lack of "counter builds" that could ruin my gameplay experience.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that I think mDK is currently bad in open world. I think it's quite good now. I meant to say that after 1.6 it was one of the worst open world specs even though it was still strong in duels. But it has been slowly getting better in open world.

But yes, I have also made some truly cringeworthy PTS predictions in the past

Ragnaroek93

Kilandros wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Are mag DKs being nerfed?

No.


Anyone who has actually tested the Power Lash changes on PTS can say it isn't a nerf compared to Live. Only vs dodge rollers will you land less Power Lashes (and even dodged Power Lashes provide the heal portion on PTS btw).

Vs.literally every other build (some of which magicka DKs actually had problems against on Live) it's an enormous buff.


I've made this point so, so many times yet all we get are these "sky is falling" posts and threads.

---

I'm spending hours on PTS every day, all I'm seeing is how much better DK does vs builds it didn't just roflstomp before, how it plays exactly as it did before.

No, your "DK identity" hasn't changed, your "playstyle" hasn't changed - nothing has changed except maybe (not always) your rotation vs dodge rollers.


If there are negative effects to these changes, why won't anyone show me on PTS?


A whole lot of hysteria over changes that probably none of the QQers have actually bothered to test or theorycraft around.

I don't understand why you keep proclaiming your PTS experiences as gospel here. On PTS all we can do to test stuff is duel since there aren't enough players to test open-world PvP. Dueling is a novelty game mode that the game should not be balanced around.

So you can't really say with certainty that the DK playstyle hasn't changed since you can't test the DK playstyle in a true open world environment. If you need an example of when the PTS testers got it wrong based solely on the limited scope of dueling, just see, e.g., the Destro Ult fiasco when that ultimate was heralded as trash that would never be used by anyone ever.

So you should refine your argument to say that DK is performing roughly the same in duels. That would be fine to say. But for many players (myself and I suspect the OP), duels aren't really what we're focusing on when we look at balance. We focus on how a build performs in open world. And open world requires mechanics that are generally not needed in duels like mobility, escapes, and burst. Duels are great for a mDK where I don't need to slot mist and I only need to slot single-target abilities. But my mDK dueling build and open-world builds are miles apart. You need to start distinguishing between those two types of play.

Well, that's where I think a bit differently.

Every build begins from 1v1 testing - if you can't survive a 1v1 encounter, you won't survive a 1vX encounter either should that person you lost 1v1 to appear.

...and it works the other way around too: if you can kill people in 1v1 with something, then you can kill people in 1vX as well provided the rest of your build can handle additional pressure.


I see no negative changes to DK in that regard in this upcoming update - if anything open world non-pet magicka sorcs for example (very popular in Cyrodiil) will never be able to take mDK pressure anymore with the more frequent Power Lashes (if you've Chain slotted to gap close->Fossilize every time they BoL).

You're making all sorts of bizarre assumptions and I don't quite know why. People run dueling builds and then people run open world builds. How my dueling build performs against your dueling build tells me next to nothing about how my dueling build would perform against your open-world build, and vice versa. Just to give a rudimentary example, but if my mDK is dueling your Stamblade, I don't need to worry about my mobility because we'd be confined to the dueling area. But if we met in open world and you decided to kite me and I had my low-mobility dueling build on, I wouldn't be able to catch you unless I use sprint in which case you'd win once I depleted my stamina.

It's silly to try to compare the two types of game mode. There's really no comparison. 1v1 testing is a good way to look at numbers, sure, but it tells you virtually nothing about how a class performs in dynamic open-world Cyrodiil. Case in point: mDK has always--ALWAYS--been one of the strongest dueling classes but since 1.5 it's been one of the weakest open-world specs. How can that be? Because duels and open world are completely different.

I appreciate the work you've done on PTS and your insight into dueling on the PTS. But that's all it is--insight into dueling. But you've started commenting on the overarching mDK playstyle based simply on PTS duels which is completely non sequitur. The truth is, we won't really know for sure how mDK performs in open world with these changes until this patch goes Live. That's an unfortunate reality of the lack of players participating in each PTS cycle. But knowing that, we can do our part to acknowledge that while dueling says A LOT about class balance with respect to dueling, it says very little with respect to class balance in open world Cyrodiil.

Well I think that no class should get hardcountered by another in a 1v1 scenario simply because of the gapcloser mechanic in this game. I also think that mag Dk is in a much stronger place overall (compared to other classes) compared to how it was before Morrowind there everyone got roasted by heavy armor Redguards and/or procs (not saying that this is a bad thing, I'm actually glad that we moved away from this meta).

FlamingBeard

DDuke wrote: »

Quantum_V wrote: »

So from testing in PTS:

magDK is not bad - lets get that out of the way.

BUT

mDK feels clunky, doesn't feel smooth at all, double powerlashing is a mechanic that you rarely see specially when your opponent (specially magsorcs) realize that if they dodge the first powerlash they're good. mDK playstyle was changed significantly and it was just a matter of time until the stamplars and stamblades I was fighting to realize that dodging backwards or dodging and then immediately blocking was an effective way to quickly shutdown mDKs offensive windows.

There is no magicka sorc in the universe that can sustain dodging & CC breaking every 7s, especially now that Immovable potions are nerfed. If you find that a sorc has the impulse to dodge Fossilize->FL->PL, then what you can do is hold that PL for a second, cast embers , chains, rebuff/whatever & watch that sorc spend 1/4th of his stamina bar dodge rolling for nothing.

It's about outplaying your opponent now rather than having guaranteed damage, and the exact same goes for stamina builds as well.

I'm still missing lots of PLs as well on PTS (around 50% of them) vs stamina builds, but it's all about adjusting, getting the Fossilize->FL->PL rotation out of your muscle memory & replacing it with something else. Stam build CC breaks, rolls backwards?

You leap (lands before dodge roll animation ends)->LA+PL & if they're still alive they're at 20-30% health, low stam and about to die to your next Fossilize if they've no Rally built up.

Treat PL more as a proc and less as some guaranteed burst. Just like Assassin's Will, Frags etc, land them when you know (or are very certain atleast) you can land them.

Takes some practice, but that's a good thing.

Melee-ranged abilities should be more rewarding to use than ranged abilities, hands down.

Nightblades get resources back just for doing light attacks during Grim Focus, and Sorcerers get health back for firing off their Dark Magic abilities which Crystal Fragments is.

It's also A LOT easier to tell when a magDK has a Power Lash ready because the whole process is telegraphed right in your face with their stun or immobilize.

You can't use visual effects of Crystal Fragments to predict the Sorcerer firing it because they can hold it for a while and have no cooldown on getting another proc right after if rng is on their side. The same thing applies to Assassin's Will; you can't keep a constant count of how many light and heavy attacks someone has fired off throughout a fight, so there's no way to predict when they'll fire it.

For Power Lash, you only get it if you hit someone from melee-range with Flame Lash first while they're also immobilized or CC'd. Those CCs or immobilizations TELL them you're definitely going to be attempting a Power Lash, and dodge the first one, and simply stay away from you or stun you to prevent the second Power Lash.

On PTS, it's now much easier to predict and evade Power Lash (a very limited proc now with a cooldown and stuck at melee range) from hitting you than it is to predict and dodge Assassin's Will or Crystal Fragments (two ranged procs which give you more freedom of movement and freedom of choice to use them at certain times).

ESO is now rewarding being a ranged magicka build and running away to pew pew at your opponent from afar, rather than rewarding those who stay and fight head-on.

Subversus

Feanor wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

I'd find it interesting what the self-proclaimed DK experts want the class toolkit to be. From the posts here I figure it's something like deadly in melee range (CC galore, powerful DoTs and undodgeable power lash on top) while being untouchable by range with the fixes to wings. And that wouldn't be an issue and totally fine? For all the flak @DDuke has got in this thread - reading stuff from DK players here and in other threads (like wings should also purge snares) is even more ridiculous.

I’m still waiting. What should the class be in PvP? And no, a hard counter to ranged play styles while having a ton of damage and the best crowd control doesn’t count as answer because it’s absurd.

Sorcerer literally has all the same CC capabilities as Dragonknight except longer range and more utility.

Rune Prison is a better version of Fossilize with a MUCH longer range, and Encase (and morphs) is a better version of Dark Talons and morphs and is also MUCH longer range. Sorcerer also has Daedric Mines which DK lacks any equivalent to.

So tell me again how Dragonknight has the absolute best CC?

I think you just aren't willing to be genuine in this thread and want DKs nerfed.

And streak+pet AoE stun. The trade was that we got stun on our proc, and they got our better hard CC. Sorc mains tend to forget that and cry that the class is dead. Whilst 1d asf, its still got plenty going for it. I mean, 2 executes, good AoD and mobility (good comparitively) OK burst, but telegraphed and outshone by warden. And shields.

That Sorcs are a better class in your view is irrelevant to the question what the DK should reasonably have in its toolkit.

Your entire opinion is now irrelevant because a melee-limited class like MagDK should have MORE crowd control than a super-mobile high ranged damage class like Sorcerer, not less.

At least you've revealed your true intentions. lol

Subversus wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

Calboy wrote: »

alot of people in this thread talking about the lack of mdk mobility yet mdk's have the best gap closer in the game about to get even stronger.

Best gap closer in the game? Maybe on paper, but not in usage.

And about to get stronger?

"We’ve decreased the damage values on numerous gap closer abilities – not just Teleport Strike, but other charge abilities such as Critical Charge or Focused Charge as well. Gap closers in ESO have no cooldown and can hit for extreme amounts of damage, so there is very little opportunity cost in forcing your enemies to use them. Decreasing their damage ensures that ranged players utilizing movement and terrain to maintain their distance are better rewarded for that advantage."

If by "stronger" you mean other gap closers are getting nerfed then.. I guess you could technically say that?

It's more likely that ZOS realizes nearly nobody uses magDK's chains to gap close so they chose to not smash it with a nerf hammer.

So if that was your point, you kind of defeated yourself there.

---

Inig0 wrote: »

After reading your comparison or rather lack there of to merciless I came to the idea of perhaps making flame lash behave like merciless where instead of the skill gaining that feature from targeting a player that is off-balance. Instead when you cause a player to become off-balance you gain a buff (similar to merciless) which allows you to use or not use in some time period like merciless.

What i mean by this:

you cause someone or something to become off-balance --> flame lash then procs --> you have 10sec (arbitrary) to use it --> after you use it you cannot proc flame lash from an off balance target for 3 sec.

Or perhaps some system like that where its a conditional proc instead of a targets conditional status.

On the idea of it being dodge-able. I feel torn.

the argument for --> its a proc skill that should land 100% if the target is in range
the argument against --> dks have enough things that go through dodge (deep breath, leap, and anything else i might be
missing) and dont need high single target damage that also goes through dodge.

Another argument against (unfortunately) i would compare the lash proc to frags potentially? Which does similar damage (arguable) and is and always has been dodge-able.

I wouldn't compare a ranged damage proc that has no cooldown to a melee damage proc which has MUCH stricter proc conditions as well as a forced cooldown.

Not very comparable, nearly at all except that they're both called "procs."

"Merciless" "No cooldown"

oh honey

I was talking about Crystal Fragments, you silly dunce

Am I talking Mandarin? I don’t want to know how overpowered other classes are in your view. I want to know what the DK should be - where it’s strength should be and what the counter should be. Reasonably.

I lol'd at the mandarin thing. Funny

Subversus

FlamingBeard wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

I'd find it interesting what the self-proclaimed DK experts want the class toolkit to be. From the posts here I figure it's something like deadly in melee range (CC galore, powerful DoTs and undodgeable power lash on top) while being untouchable by range with the fixes to wings. And that wouldn't be an issue and totally fine? For all the flak @DDuke has got in this thread - reading stuff from DK players here and in other threads (like wings should also purge snares) is even more ridiculous.

I’m still waiting. What should the class be in PvP? And no, a hard counter to ranged play styles while having a ton of damage and the best crowd control doesn’t count as answer because it’s absurd.

Sorcerer literally has all the same CC capabilities as Dragonknight except longer range and more utility.

Rune Prison is a better version of Fossilize with a MUCH longer range, and Encase (and morphs) is a better version of Dark Talons and morphs and is also MUCH longer range. Sorcerer also has Daedric Mines which DK lacks any equivalent to.

So tell me again how Dragonknight has the absolute best CC?

I think you just aren't willing to be genuine in this thread and want DKs nerfed.

And streak+pet AoE stun. The trade was that we got stun on our proc, and they got our better hard CC. Sorc mains tend to forget that and cry that the class is dead. Whilst 1d asf, its still got plenty going for it. I mean, 2 executes, good AoD and mobility (good comparitively) OK burst, but telegraphed and outshone by warden. And shields.

That Sorcs are a better class in your view is irrelevant to the question what the DK should reasonably have in its toolkit.

Your entire opinion is now irrelevant because a melee-limited class like MagDK should have MORE crowd control than a super-mobile high ranged damage class like Sorcerer, not less.

At least you've revealed your true intentions. lol

Subversus wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

Calboy wrote: »

alot of people in this thread talking about the lack of mdk mobility yet mdk's have the best gap closer in the game about to get even stronger.

Best gap closer in the game? Maybe on paper, but not in usage.

And about to get stronger?

"We’ve decreased the damage values on numerous gap closer abilities – not just Teleport Strike, but other charge abilities such as Critical Charge or Focused Charge as well. Gap closers in ESO have no cooldown and can hit for extreme amounts of damage, so there is very little opportunity cost in forcing your enemies to use them. Decreasing their damage ensures that ranged players utilizing movement and terrain to maintain their distance are better rewarded for that advantage."

If by "stronger" you mean other gap closers are getting nerfed then.. I guess you could technically say that?

It's more likely that ZOS realizes nearly nobody uses magDK's chains to gap close so they chose to not smash it with a nerf hammer.

So if that was your point, you kind of defeated yourself there.

---

Inig0 wrote: »

After reading your comparison or rather lack there of to merciless I came to the idea of perhaps making flame lash behave like merciless where instead of the skill gaining that feature from targeting a player that is off-balance. Instead when you cause a player to become off-balance you gain a buff (similar to merciless) which allows you to use or not use in some time period like merciless.

What i mean by this:

you cause someone or something to become off-balance --> flame lash then procs --> you have 10sec (arbitrary) to use it --> after you use it you cannot proc flame lash from an off balance target for 3 sec.

Or perhaps some system like that where its a conditional proc instead of a targets conditional status.

On the idea of it being dodge-able. I feel torn.

the argument for --> its a proc skill that should land 100% if the target is in range
the argument against --> dks have enough things that go through dodge (deep breath, leap, and anything else i might be
missing) and dont need high single target damage that also goes through dodge.

Another argument against (unfortunately) i would compare the lash proc to frags potentially? Which does similar damage (arguable) and is and always has been dodge-able.

I wouldn't compare a ranged damage proc that has no cooldown to a melee damage proc which has MUCH stricter proc conditions as well as a forced cooldown.

Not very comparable, nearly at all except that they're both called "procs."

"Merciless" "No cooldown"

oh honey

I was talking about Crystal Fragments, you silly dunce

Oh you did? My bad in that case /facepalm , dunno why I thought of merciless.

Quantum_V

DDuke wrote: »

Quantum_V wrote: »

So from testing in PTS:

magDK is not bad - lets get that out of the way.

BUT

mDK feels clunky, doesn't feel smooth at all, double powerlashing is a mechanic that you rarely see specially when your opponent (specially magsorcs) realize that if they dodge the first powerlash they're good. mDK playstyle was changed significantly and it was just a matter of time until the stamplars and stamblades I was fighting to realize that dodging backwards or dodging and then immediately blocking was an effective way to quickly shutdown mDKs offensive windows.

There is no magicka sorc in the universe that can sustain dodging & CC breaking every 7s, especially now that Immovable potions are nerfed. If you find that a sorc has the impulse to dodge Fossilize->FL->PL, then what you can do is hold that PL for a second, cast embers , chains, rebuff/whatever & watch that sorc spend 1/4th of his stamina bar dodge rolling for nothing.

It's about outplaying your opponent now rather than having guaranteed damage, and the exact same goes for stamina builds as well.

I'm still missing lots of PLs as well on PTS (around 50% of them) vs stamina builds, but it's all about adjusting, getting the Fossilize->FL->PL rotation out of your muscle memory & replacing it with something else. Stam build CC breaks, rolls backwards?

You leap (lands before dodge roll animation ends)->LA+PL & if they're still alive they're at 20-30% health, low stam and about to die to your next Fossilize if they've no Rally built up.

Treat PL more as a proc and less as some guaranteed burst. Just like Assassin's Will, Frags etc, land them when you know (or are very certain atleast) you can land them.

Takes some practice, but that's a good thing.

Search up Malcom Mag sorc on youtube. I swear he dodges more than some nbs I see around.

DDuke

FlamingBeard wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Quantum_V wrote: »

So from testing in PTS:

magDK is not bad - lets get that out of the way.

BUT

mDK feels clunky, doesn't feel smooth at all, double powerlashing is a mechanic that you rarely see specially when your opponent (specially magsorcs) realize that if they dodge the first powerlash they're good. mDK playstyle was changed significantly and it was just a matter of time until the stamplars and stamblades I was fighting to realize that dodging backwards or dodging and then immediately blocking was an effective way to quickly shutdown mDKs offensive windows.

There is no magicka sorc in the universe that can sustain dodging & CC breaking every 7s, especially now that Immovable potions are nerfed. If you find that a sorc has the impulse to dodge Fossilize->FL->PL, then what you can do is hold that PL for a second, cast embers , chains, rebuff/whatever & watch that sorc spend 1/4th of his stamina bar dodge rolling for nothing.

It's about outplaying your opponent now rather than having guaranteed damage, and the exact same goes for stamina builds as well.

I'm still missing lots of PLs as well on PTS (around 50% of them) vs stamina builds, but it's all about adjusting, getting the Fossilize->FL->PL rotation out of your muscle memory & replacing it with something else. Stam build CC breaks, rolls backwards?

You leap (lands before dodge roll animation ends)->LA+PL & if they're still alive they're at 20-30% health, low stam and about to die to your next Fossilize if they've no Rally built up.

Treat PL more as a proc and less as some guaranteed burst. Just like Assassin's Will, Frags etc, land them when you know (or are very certain atleast) you can land them.

Takes some practice, but that's a good thing.

Melee-ranged abilities should be more rewarding to use than ranged abilities, hands down.

Nightblades get resources back just for doing light attacks during Grim Focus, and Sorcerers get health back for firing off their Dark Magic abilities which Crystal Fragments is.

It's also A LOT easier to tell when a magDK has a Power Lash ready because the whole process is telegraphed right in your face with their stun or immobilize.

You can't use visual effects of Crystal Fragments to predict the Sorcerer firing it because they can hold it for a while and have no cooldown on getting another proc right after if rng is on their side. The same thing applies to Assassin's Will; you can't keep a constant count of how many light and heavy attacks someone has fired off throughout a fight, so there's no way to predict when they'll fire it.

For Power Lash, you only get it if you hit someone from melee-range with Flame Lash first while they're also immobilized or CC'd. Those CCs or immobilizations TELL them you're definitely going to be attempting a Power Lash, and dodge the first one, and simply stay away from you or stun you to prevent the second Power Lash.

On PTS, it's now much easier to predict and evade Power Lash (a very limited proc now with a cooldown and stuck at melee range) from hitting you than it is to predict and dodge Assassin's Will or Crystal Fragments (two ranged procs which give you more freedom of movement and freedom of choice to use them at certain times).

ESO is now rewarding being a ranged magicka build and running away to pew pew at your opponent from afar, rather than rewarding those who stay and fight head-on.

Let me help you with your build mistakes: slot Chains (or Forward Momentum+Speed Pot)->no more ranged builds, no more pew pew from afar or dodge rolling away, guaranteed Fossilizes on cooldown and nigh guaranteed, empowered PLs vs non-dodge builds.

Alternatively: slot Scales & reflect those Frags & Assassin's Wills.

Or both.

...or neither, and keep repeating the same hogwash that only applies to bad builds and players.

It doesn't sound like you want to "fight head-on", it sounds like you want everyone to just walk up to you and stay in melee until they die to 100% unavoidable damage.


My last post to you, tired of repeating the same thing & hearing the same complaints over and over again.

deepseamk20b14_ESO

“With that idea in mind, rooting instinctively provokes a rolldodge reaction, and due to how the timing on powerlash procced, it'd hit players that mindlessly rolldodges away from the mDKs grasp - requiring thought process behind fighting a DK and making the game more interestingly rich.”

People complain about birds that can’t be dodged but suddenly it’s interestingly rich when your class has a non-dodgable skill.

Sorry, just found that kind of funny.

I see PvE changing more so than PvP. My magDK will be fine in PvP. I switch things around for PvE and tank so it won’t affect me there either. overall I think people are overreacting because they can’t be one trick ponies anymore lol.

What they need to do is give magDK a buff elsewhere so it isn’t always just nerf after nerf!

DDuke

Quantum_V wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Quantum_V wrote: »

So from testing in PTS:

magDK is not bad - lets get that out of the way.

BUT

mDK feels clunky, doesn't feel smooth at all, double powerlashing is a mechanic that you rarely see specially when your opponent (specially magsorcs) realize that if they dodge the first powerlash they're good. mDK playstyle was changed significantly and it was just a matter of time until the stamplars and stamblades I was fighting to realize that dodging backwards or dodging and then immediately blocking was an effective way to quickly shutdown mDKs offensive windows.

There is no magicka sorc in the universe that can sustain dodging & CC breaking every 7s, especially now that Immovable potions are nerfed. If you find that a sorc has the impulse to dodge Fossilize->FL->PL, then what you can do is hold that PL for a second, cast embers , chains, rebuff/whatever & watch that sorc spend 1/4th of his stamina bar dodge rolling for nothing.

It's about outplaying your opponent now rather than having guaranteed damage, and the exact same goes for stamina builds as well.

I'm still missing lots of PLs as well on PTS (around 50% of them) vs stamina builds, but it's all about adjusting, getting the Fossilize->FL->PL rotation out of your muscle memory & replacing it with something else. Stam build CC breaks, rolls backwards?

You leap (lands before dodge roll animation ends)->LA+PL & if they're still alive they're at 20-30% health, low stam and about to die to your next Fossilize if they've no Rally built up.

Treat PL more as a proc and less as some guaranteed burst. Just like Assassin's Will, Frags etc, land them when you know (or are very certain atleast) you can land them.

Takes some practice, but that's a good thing.

Search up Malcom Mag sorc on youtube. I swear he dodges more than some nbs I see around.

Yeah, you can get Shackle+Amber for a lot of dodging - but that does leave your shields weaker and more vulnerable to burst (i.e. Fossilize->FL->Leap->PL) and those builds can't dodge multiple times in a row due to high base cost for dodge roll & the stacking cost modifier. I think the max stam regen for these builds is around 1,5k'ish if I recall correctly, will have to check that again.

It's nothing like fighting a Eternal Hunt rollerblade for instance.


I'd hardly call those builds meta either, most sorcs focus on dmg shield strength & offensive capabilities and they run out of stamina even from just CC breaking Fossilize over and over again.

FlamingBeard

DDuke wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Quantum_V wrote: »

So from testing in PTS:

magDK is not bad - lets get that out of the way.

BUT

mDK feels clunky, doesn't feel smooth at all, double powerlashing is a mechanic that you rarely see specially when your opponent (specially magsorcs) realize that if they dodge the first powerlash they're good. mDK playstyle was changed significantly and it was just a matter of time until the stamplars and stamblades I was fighting to realize that dodging backwards or dodging and then immediately blocking was an effective way to quickly shutdown mDKs offensive windows.

There is no magicka sorc in the universe that can sustain dodging & CC breaking every 7s, especially now that Immovable potions are nerfed. If you find that a sorc has the impulse to dodge Fossilize->FL->PL, then what you can do is hold that PL for a second, cast embers , chains, rebuff/whatever & watch that sorc spend 1/4th of his stamina bar dodge rolling for nothing.

It's about outplaying your opponent now rather than having guaranteed damage, and the exact same goes for stamina builds as well.

I'm still missing lots of PLs as well on PTS (around 50% of them) vs stamina builds, but it's all about adjusting, getting the Fossilize->FL->PL rotation out of your muscle memory & replacing it with something else. Stam build CC breaks, rolls backwards?

You leap (lands before dodge roll animation ends)->LA+PL & if they're still alive they're at 20-30% health, low stam and about to die to your next Fossilize if they've no Rally built up.

Treat PL more as a proc and less as some guaranteed burst. Just like Assassin's Will, Frags etc, land them when you know (or are very certain atleast) you can land them.

Takes some practice, but that's a good thing.

Melee-ranged abilities should be more rewarding to use than ranged abilities, hands down.

Nightblades get resources back just for doing light attacks during Grim Focus, and Sorcerers get health back for firing off their Dark Magic abilities which Crystal Fragments is.

It's also A LOT easier to tell when a magDK has a Power Lash ready because the whole process is telegraphed right in your face with their stun or immobilize.

You can't use visual effects of Crystal Fragments to predict the Sorcerer firing it because they can hold it for a while and have no cooldown on getting another proc right after if rng is on their side. The same thing applies to Assassin's Will; you can't keep a constant count of how many light and heavy attacks someone has fired off throughout a fight, so there's no way to predict when they'll fire it.

For Power Lash, you only get it if you hit someone from melee-range with Flame Lash first while they're also immobilized or CC'd. Those CCs or immobilizations TELL them you're definitely going to be attempting a Power Lash, and dodge the first one, and simply stay away from you or stun you to prevent the second Power Lash.

On PTS, it's now much easier to predict and evade Power Lash (a very limited proc now with a cooldown and stuck at melee range) from hitting you than it is to predict and dodge Assassin's Will or Crystal Fragments (two ranged procs which give you more freedom of movement and freedom of choice to use them at certain times).

ESO is now rewarding being a ranged magicka build and running away to pew pew at your opponent from afar, rather than rewarding those who stay and fight head-on.

Let me help you with your build mistakes: slot Chains (or Forward Momentum+Speed Pot)->no more ranged builds, no more pew pew from afar or dodge rolling away, guaranteed Fossilizes on cooldown and nigh guaranteed, empowered PLs vs non-dodge builds.

Alternatively: slot Scales & reflect those Frags & Assassin's Wills.

Or both.

...or neither, and keep repeating the same hogwash that only applies to bad builds and players.


My last post to you, tired of repeating the same thing & hearing the same complaints over and over again.

Like others before me have already tried to communicate to you: Chains is not and has not been reliable in Cyrodiil for a long time, if ever.

No self-respecting magDK is going to use one of the most bugged gap closers in the game to address a nerf that was unnecessary to begin with if they had simply left Off-Balance alone and instead fixed what was wrong with the classes themselves.

Stop trying to sabotage a class you hate fighting on your stamina Nightblade main toon and leave the people who have been playing the class for longer than a couple weeks to attempt to communicate their concerns to the developers, who are still yet to respond here.

FlamingBeard

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

“With that idea in mind, rooting instinctively provokes a rolldodge reaction, and due to how the timing on powerlash procced, it'd hit players that mindlessly rolldodges away from the mDKs grasp - requiring thought process behind fighting a DK and making the game more interestingly rich.”

People complain about birds that can’t be dodged but suddenly it’s interestingly rich when your class has a non-dodgable skill.

Sorry, just found that kind of funny.

I see PvE changing more so than PvP. My magDK will be fine in PvP. I switch things around for PvE and tank so it won’t affect me there either. overall I think people are overreacting because they can’t be one trick ponies anymore lol.

What they need to do is give magDK a buff elsewhere so it isn’t always just nerf after nerf!

How hard is it to read and understand things at the same time?

Dive is a spammable, ranged and undodgeable ability. It is not similar to Power Lash in any way shape or form.

Power Lash must be proc'd. The conditions for Power Lash proc are more strict than any other class proc ability including Grim Focus or Crystal Fragments.

I don't know about you, but I would MUCH rather melee procs be undodgeable than ranged SPAMMABLES because having Dive spammed at you in Cyrodiil or Battlegrounds is not fun.

Jjitsuboy98

Trust in Eric Wrobel. He will not let DKs die. When those patch notes come out Monday we will see that he has reconsidered............lol I'm just *** with you guys........the notes will probably say something about dragon leap being to powerful and getting turned into a dot or something. Smh.

Subversus

DDuke wrote: »

Quantum_V wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Quantum_V wrote: »

So from testing in PTS:

magDK is not bad - lets get that out of the way.

BUT

mDK feels clunky, doesn't feel smooth at all, double powerlashing is a mechanic that you rarely see specially when your opponent (specially magsorcs) realize that if they dodge the first powerlash they're good. mDK playstyle was changed significantly and it was just a matter of time until the stamplars and stamblades I was fighting to realize that dodging backwards or dodging and then immediately blocking was an effective way to quickly shutdown mDKs offensive windows.

There is no magicka sorc in the universe that can sustain dodging & CC breaking every 7s, especially now that Immovable potions are nerfed. If you find that a sorc has the impulse to dodge Fossilize->FL->PL, then what you can do is hold that PL for a second, cast embers , chains, rebuff/whatever & watch that sorc spend 1/4th of his stamina bar dodge rolling for nothing.

It's about outplaying your opponent now rather than having guaranteed damage, and the exact same goes for stamina builds as well.

I'm still missing lots of PLs as well on PTS (around 50% of them) vs stamina builds, but it's all about adjusting, getting the Fossilize->FL->PL rotation out of your muscle memory & replacing it with something else. Stam build CC breaks, rolls backwards?

You leap (lands before dodge roll animation ends)->LA+PL & if they're still alive they're at 20-30% health, low stam and about to die to your next Fossilize if they've no Rally built up.

Treat PL more as a proc and less as some guaranteed burst. Just like Assassin's Will, Frags etc, land them when you know (or are very certain atleast) you can land them.

Takes some practice, but that's a good thing.

Search up Malcom Mag sorc on youtube. I swear he dodges more than some nbs I see around.

Yeah, you can get Shackle+Amber for a lot of dodging - but that does leave your shields weaker and more vulnerable to burst (i.e. Fossilize->FL->Leap->PL) and those builds can't dodge multiple times in a row due to high base cost for dodge roll & the stacking cost modifier. I think the max stam regen for these builds is around 1,5k'ish if I recall correctly, will have to check that again.

It's nothing like fighting a Eternal Hunt rollerblade for instance.


I'd hardly call those builds meta either, most sorcs focus on dmg shield strength & offensive capabilities and they run out of stamina even from just CC breaking Fossilize over and over again.

Amber shackle hasn't been quite so popular since frags got nerfed though... lich allows you to run tristat instead of witchmothers, which together with shackle max stam is superior to amber regen imo, not to mention lich gives far more mag regen than amber. It's really the best sustain set imo.

susniand

Let me say that Im reading these forums, along with Reddit, on daily basis and until now I didnt feel the need to post anything here.

I read all 13 pages over last two days and suddenly have urge to post something, so I went and requested forum invite via support and registered - the reason is DDuke and his attidute.
He made first and only mdk build, not that original not great on the first place, and suddenly hes acting like Mr. Knowitall, arguing with everyone with diferent oppinion from himself. Is it clear that he has his personal agenda of somekind, against magicka dragonknight proffesion. The number of posts in this and every other thread involving magicka dragonknight in unbelievable, but the thing is, all posts are exacly the same.

When you are talking/writing, you are only repeating what you already know, try listening others and learn something new.

But lets get back on topic; mDK, power leash cooldown, combos.
What everyone forget is Shattering Rocks morph. Let me explain:

Power Lash ability was designed to not have cooldown nor be dodgeable. Why?
Cooldown:
Shattering rocks is designed to set enemies in 8m radius offbalance with 50% chance rate, so you can get more Power lashes, therefore more heals. With 3s cooldown, Shattering rocks doesnt serve its purpose.
Dodgeable:
Power lash can be used only on offblance enemies, therefore its 3rd ability in a chain, witch means target knows it comming 3 seconds beforehand. It musn't get dodgeable since Flame lash is dodgeable and if you evade it, you ruin attackers combo and not get offbalanced on the first place.

Well thats my peronal opinion, I voiced it, so should everyone else, except DDuke as he read his too many times already.

pieratsos

FlamingBeard wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Quantum_V wrote: »

So from testing in PTS:

magDK is not bad - lets get that out of the way.

BUT

mDK feels clunky, doesn't feel smooth at all, double powerlashing is a mechanic that you rarely see specially when your opponent (specially magsorcs) realize that if they dodge the first powerlash they're good. mDK playstyle was changed significantly and it was just a matter of time until the stamplars and stamblades I was fighting to realize that dodging backwards or dodging and then immediately blocking was an effective way to quickly shutdown mDKs offensive windows.

There is no magicka sorc in the universe that can sustain dodging & CC breaking every 7s, especially now that Immovable potions are nerfed. If you find that a sorc has the impulse to dodge Fossilize->FL->PL, then what you can do is hold that PL for a second, cast embers , chains, rebuff/whatever & watch that sorc spend 1/4th of his stamina bar dodge rolling for nothing.

It's about outplaying your opponent now rather than having guaranteed damage, and the exact same goes for stamina builds as well.

I'm still missing lots of PLs as well on PTS (around 50% of them) vs stamina builds, but it's all about adjusting, getting the Fossilize->FL->PL rotation out of your muscle memory & replacing it with something else. Stam build CC breaks, rolls backwards?

You leap (lands before dodge roll animation ends)->LA+PL & if they're still alive they're at 20-30% health, low stam and about to die to your next Fossilize if they've no Rally built up.

Treat PL more as a proc and less as some guaranteed burst. Just like Assassin's Will, Frags etc, land them when you know (or are very certain atleast) you can land them.

Takes some practice, but that's a good thing.

Melee-ranged abilities should be more rewarding to use than ranged abilities, hands down.

Nightblades get resources back just for doing light attacks during Grim Focus, and Sorcerers get health back for firing off their Dark Magic abilities which Crystal Fragments is.

It's also A LOT easier to tell when a magDK has a Power Lash ready because the whole process is telegraphed right in your face with their stun or immobilize.

You can't use visual effects of Crystal Fragments to predict the Sorcerer firing it because they can hold it for a while and have no cooldown on getting another proc right after if rng is on their side. The same thing applies to Assassin's Will; you can't keep a constant count of how many light and heavy attacks someone has fired off throughout a fight, so there's no way to predict when they'll fire it.

For Power Lash, you only get it if you hit someone from melee-range with Flame Lash first while they're also immobilized or CC'd. Those CCs or immobilizations TELL them you're definitely going to be attempting a Power Lash, and dodge the first one, and simply stay away from you or stun you to prevent the second Power Lash.

On PTS, it's now much easier to predict and evade Power Lash (a very limited proc now with a cooldown and stuck at melee range) from hitting you than it is to predict and dodge Assassin's Will or Crystal Fragments (two ranged procs which give you more freedom of movement and freedom of choice to use them at certain times).

ESO is now rewarding being a ranged magicka build and running away to pew pew at your opponent from afar, rather than rewarding those who stay and fight head-on.

Your insight on other classes and ur comparisons are tragic to say the least. Your bias is all over the place. You are comparing apples with oranges, u are adding other skills and passives into the comparison to make frags and spectral bow look stronger and power lash weaker. You are comparing lash, frag, spectral bow. Not lash, frag + passives, spectral bow + other skills.

Spectral bow needs 5 light attacks to proc so it basically has a longer cooldown than power lash. The skill is beyond clunky, the projectile very slow, dodgeable, reflectable, you can easily predict when its coming, no cc or heal or resources attached to it and has a cost. You have to use it in a combo.

Frag again does not heal you. That is a passive which is completely irrelevant. But since you mentioned that passive let me tell you what it does. Its 8% of ur hp. That means 4% of ur hp in cyro. That means less than 1k heal. That is one of the most useless passives considering the only way you proc it is with frag and mines. It doesnt even worth the 2 skill points you put into it. Power lash on the other hand has a breath of life attached to it. Not from a passive.

Frags most certainly have visual cues. They last 6-7 seconds, you always know when they are ready since sorc hands glow with crystals around them and even if u cant see that you can ALWAYS predict when they are coming. Sorcs have the most predictable burst in the game. Frags will come with curse. And im not even going to get into addons like Miats that basically tells you about incoming frags without even having the sorc in ur screen. If you cant predict their burst you are doing something very very wrong. They have no sustained dmg. Frags are harmless without a combo. They also have no CC attached to it, they are slow, reflectable and dodgeable.

The point isnt which ability is better. All 3 of them have their pros and cons. The point is that both frags and spectral bow need to be used in combos otherwise they are easily countered. That doesnt make the abilities useless. Power lash gets the same treatment. Stop feeling entitled to undodgeable lashes for no reason at all and instead work with your combos.

DDuke

susniand wrote: »

Let me say that Im reading these forums, along with Reddit, on daily basis and until now I didnt feel the need to post anything here.

I read all 13 pages over last two days and suddenly have urge to post something, so I went and requested forum invite via support and registered - the reason is DDuke and his attidute.
He made first and only mdk build, not that original not great on the first place, and suddenly hes acting like Mr. Knowitall, arguing with everyone with diferent oppinion from himself. Is it clear that he has his personal agenda of somekind, against magicka dragonknight proffesion. The number of posts in this and every other thread involving magicka dragonknight in unbelievable, but the thing is, all posts are exacly the same.

When you are talking/writing, you are only repeating what you already know, try listening others and learn something new.

But lets get back on topic; mDK, power leash cooldown, combos.
What everyone forget is Shattering Rocks morph. Let me explain:

Power Lash ability was designed to not have cooldown nor be dodgeable. Why?
Cooldown:
Shattering rocks is designed to set enemies in 8m radius offbalance with 50% chance rate, so you can get more Power lashes, therefore more heals. With 3s cooldown, Shattering rocks doesnt serve its purpose.
Dodgeable:
Power lash can be used only on offblance enemies, therefore its 3rd ability in a chain, witch means target knows it comming 3 seconds beforehand. It musn't get dodgeable since Flame lash is dodgeable and if you evade it, you ruin attackers combo and not get offbalanced on the first place.

Well thats my peronal opinion, I voiced it, so should everyone else, except DDuke as he read his too many times already.

Well, thing is I'm actually testing these changes on PTS (limited to dueling, unfortunately) & I'm not noticing any negative, unnecessary effects from these changes in 1v1 situations - quite the contrary. That is not an "opinion", that is a fact based on performance.


How mDK will perform in open world after these changes, who knows - but as a pretty experienced theorycrafter (on all classes) with pretty good idea of every class & game mechanic, I'd say it'll do fine. We'll see.

Nobody here can QQ about mDK getting nerfed, because they haven't tested it in open world yet.


I don't think anyone who has tested it extensively on PTS can claim it's getting nerfed in duels either.

There is zero factual basis for that claim - so far the changes have made my mDK stronger all around vs builds I'd struggle against before.


So if you have a problem with my attitude, take it to pms. I'm one of the few people actually testing & theorycrafting things and not just QQing.


P.S. Nobody uses Shattering Rocks, that morph needs massive buffing/revamp (maybe it could even get its 15m range back since it has no root attached). Other DK skills/morphs that could use buffs (see, I do have an agenda: a better game): Hardened Armor, Reflective Plate, Deep Breath, Igneous Weapons, Obsidian Shield (both morphs), Ash Cloud (both morphs).

P.P.S. I'll still gladly prove to anyone why this Power Lash change was necessary (on Live) & why mDK still works more than fine (better against block & dmg shield builds) on PTS. I'm available for PTS (and Live) duels/testing at all times.

FlamingBeard

DDuke wrote: »

susniand wrote: »

Let me say that Im reading these forums, along with Reddit, on daily basis and until now I didnt feel the need to post anything here.

I read all 13 pages over last two days and suddenly have urge to post something, so I went and requested forum invite via support and registered - the reason is DDuke and his attidute.
He made first and only mdk build, not that original not great on the first place, and suddenly hes acting like Mr. Knowitall, arguing with everyone with diferent oppinion from himself. Is it clear that he has his personal agenda of somekind, against magicka dragonknight proffesion. The number of posts in this and every other thread involving magicka dragonknight in unbelievable, but the thing is, all posts are exacly the same.

When you are talking/writing, you are only repeating what you already know, try listening others and learn something new.

But lets get back on topic; mDK, power leash cooldown, combos.
What everyone forget is Shattering Rocks morph. Let me explain:

Power Lash ability was designed to not have cooldown nor be dodgeable. Why?
Cooldown:
Shattering rocks is designed to set enemies in 8m radius offbalance with 50% chance rate, so you can get more Power lashes, therefore more heals. With 3s cooldown, Shattering rocks doesnt serve its purpose.
Dodgeable:
Power lash can be used only on offblance enemies, therefore its 3rd ability in a chain, witch means target knows it comming 3 seconds beforehand. It musn't get dodgeable since Flame lash is dodgeable and if you evade it, you ruin attackers combo and not get offbalanced on the first place.

Well thats my peronal opinion, I voiced it, so should everyone else, except DDuke as he read his too many times already.

Well, thing is I'm actually testing these changes on PTS (limited to dueling, unfortunately) & I'm not noticing any negative, unnecessary effects from these changes in 1v1 situations - quite the contrary. That is not an "opinion", that is a fact based on performance.


How mDK will perform in open world after these changes, who knows - but as a pretty experienced theorycrafter (on all classes) with pretty good idea of every class & game mechanic, I'd say it'll do fine. We'll see.

Nobody here can QQ about mDK getting nerfed, because they haven't tested it in open world yet.


I don't think anyone who has tested it extensively on PTS can claim it's getting nerfed in duels either.

There is zero factual basis for that claim - so far the changes have made my mDK stronger all around vs builds I'd struggle against before.


So if you have a problem with my attitude, take it to pms. I'm one of the few people actually testing & theorycrafting things and not just QQing.


P.S. Nobody uses Shattering Rocks, that morph needs massive buffing/revamp (maybe it could even get its 15m range back since it has no root attached). Other DK skills/morphs that could use buffs (see, I do have an agenda: a better game): Hardened Armor, Reflective Plate, Deep Breath, Igneous Weapons, Obsidian Shield (both morphs), Ash Cloud (both morphs).

P.P.S. I'll still gladly prove to anyone why this Power Lash change was necessary (on Live) & why mDK still works more than fine on PTS. I'm available for PTS (and Live) duels/testing at all times.

The only way to make Power Lash powerful on Live is to build for it (forsaking a Restoration Staff for a Lightning Staff to apply Off-Balance with Blockade) which means MagDK is the ONLY class that has to use a specific build type to make their class-based proc skill more viable.

This also means MagDK is the only class with a skill proc which has to sacrifice drastic amounts of survivability to do so.

For the other proc skill-toting classes, all you need to do is weave in some light and heavy attacks (which is normal for Magblades anyway) or literally just use your usual normal abilities until you get the proc every few seconds (Sorcerer).

---

What truly needs to happen to block-dropping hard CCs is that more ranged and mobile classes need to receive shorter ranges for these types of stuns since they can get in and get out of close range as needed, and MagDK needs the longer range block-dropper CC because it has to catch up to its enemies (even with your silly bugged Chains, you won't be staying on a legitimately mobile build's tail for long without running out of magicka).

You SHOULD be punished offensively for running away which is not currently the case for Sorcerer which has a lot of time-delayed burst damage from range including a passive execute and semi-passive skill-based execute.

It's not fair to melee classes which have to work harder to maintain pressure when ranged builds of other classes can do just as well from range and without putting themselves in as much danger.

---

pieratsos wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Quantum_V wrote: »

So from testing in PTS:

magDK is not bad - lets get that out of the way.

BUT

mDK feels clunky, doesn't feel smooth at all, double powerlashing is a mechanic that you rarely see specially when your opponent (specially magsorcs) realize that if they dodge the first powerlash they're good. mDK playstyle was changed significantly and it was just a matter of time until the stamplars and stamblades I was fighting to realize that dodging backwards or dodging and then immediately blocking was an effective way to quickly shutdown mDKs offensive windows.

There is no magicka sorc in the universe that can sustain dodging & CC breaking every 7s, especially now that Immovable potions are nerfed. If you find that a sorc has the impulse to dodge Fossilize->FL->PL, then what you can do is hold that PL for a second, cast embers , chains, rebuff/whatever & watch that sorc spend 1/4th of his stamina bar dodge rolling for nothing.

It's about outplaying your opponent now rather than having guaranteed damage, and the exact same goes for stamina builds as well.

I'm still missing lots of PLs as well on PTS (around 50% of them) vs stamina builds, but it's all about adjusting, getting the Fossilize->FL->PL rotation out of your muscle memory & replacing it with something else. Stam build CC breaks, rolls backwards?

You leap (lands before dodge roll animation ends)->LA+PL & if they're still alive they're at 20-30% health, low stam and about to die to your next Fossilize if they've no Rally built up.

Treat PL more as a proc and less as some guaranteed burst. Just like Assassin's Will, Frags etc, land them when you know (or are very certain atleast) you can land them.

Takes some practice, but that's a good thing.

Melee-ranged abilities should be more rewarding to use than ranged abilities, hands down.

Nightblades get resources back just for doing light attacks during Grim Focus, and Sorcerers get health back for firing off their Dark Magic abilities which Crystal Fragments is.

It's also A LOT easier to tell when a magDK has a Power Lash ready because the whole process is telegraphed right in your face with their stun or immobilize.

You can't use visual effects of Crystal Fragments to predict the Sorcerer firing it because they can hold it for a while and have no cooldown on getting another proc right after if rng is on their side. The same thing applies to Assassin's Will; you can't keep a constant count of how many light and heavy attacks someone has fired off throughout a fight, so there's no way to predict when they'll fire it.

For Power Lash, you only get it if you hit someone from melee-range with Flame Lash first while they're also immobilized or CC'd. Those CCs or immobilizations TELL them you're definitely going to be attempting a Power Lash, and dodge the first one, and simply stay away from you or stun you to prevent the second Power Lash.

On PTS, it's now much easier to predict and evade Power Lash (a very limited proc now with a cooldown and stuck at melee range) from hitting you than it is to predict and dodge Assassin's Will or Crystal Fragments (two ranged procs which give you more freedom of movement and freedom of choice to use them at certain times).

ESO is now rewarding being a ranged magicka build and running away to pew pew at your opponent from afar, rather than rewarding those who stay and fight head-on.

Your insight on other classes and ur comparisons are tragic to say the least. Your bias is all over the place. You are comparing apples with oranges, u are adding other skills and passives into the comparison to make frags and spectral bow look stronger and power lash weaker. You are comparing lash, frag, spectral bow. Not lash, frag + passives, spectral bow + other skills.

Spectral bow needs 5 light attacks to proc so it basically has a longer cooldown than power lash. The skill is beyond clunky, the projectile very slow, dodgeable, reflectable, you can easily predict when its coming, no cc or heal or resources attached to it and has a cost. You have to use it in a combo.

Frag again does not heal you. That is a passive which is completely irrelevant. But since you mentioned that passive let me tell you what it does. Its 8% of ur hp. That means 4% of ur hp in cyro. That means less than 1k heal. That is one of the most useless passives considering the only way you proc it is with frag and mines. It doesnt even worth the 2 skill points you put into it. Power lash on the other hand has a breath of life attached to it. Not from a passive.

Frags most certainly have visual cues. They last 6-7 seconds, you always know when they are ready since sorc hands glow with crystals around them and even if u cant see that you can ALWAYS predict when they are coming. Sorcs have the most predictable burst in the game. Frags will come with curse. And im not even going to get into addons like Miats that basically tells you about incoming frags without even having the sorc in ur screen. If you cant predict their burst you are doing something very very wrong. They have no sustained dmg. Frags are harmless without a combo. They also have no CC attached to it, they are slow, reflectable and dodgeable.

The point isnt which ability is better. All 3 of them have their pros and cons. The point is that both frags and spectral bow need to be used in combos otherwise they are easily countered. That doesnt make the abilities useless. Power lash gets the same treatment. Stop feeling entitled to undodgeable lashes for no reason at all and instead work with your combos.

MIATs is getting disabled, which entirely defeats one of your points, and the other points aren't even worth the energy to type a response to because it's just more line-toeing for non-DK classes in a DK balance thread.

susniand

Allright, I reread my own post and it feels like ... Lets just say I didnt want it to sound as it does.
I didnt want to offend anyone/Dduke. If I did I apolagize. I dont have anything against you and I dont know you, I also dont have any desire to argue over pms. You voiced your oppinion, i did mine, lets be done with it.
What I wrote was just my genuine respond based on all your replies and other posts in this thread. Im sure ignoring that, you must be a great guy.

My own oppinion on Shattering rocks is diferent, its good "other" morph, it just need to be working, therefore powerlash musnt get cooldown of any kind nor be dodgeable. If its overperforming because not consuming offbalace, witch is does, it needs to be toned down some other way, but not with cooldown or being dodgeable.
It would overperform only if its spammed, witch could be maybe solved with lowering its damage by certain percent for every cast in very next gcd on same target.

Witch brings me to Stonegiant, its in same skillline as Petrify morps, thus procing same passives and in general too similar. Id like it to change to range spammable of somekind, with its damage scaling with range, that would help ranged characters of this proffesion and we would have nice morph choices; Stonegiand as range damaging and Obsidian shard as range support and it wouldnt be the " same" as Petrify morphs.

pieratsos

FlamingBeard wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

susniand wrote: »

Let me say that Im reading these forums, along with Reddit, on daily basis and until now I didnt feel the need to post anything here.

I read all 13 pages over last two days and suddenly have urge to post something, so I went and requested forum invite via support and registered - the reason is DDuke and his attidute.
He made first and only mdk build, not that original not great on the first place, and suddenly hes acting like Mr. Knowitall, arguing with everyone with diferent oppinion from himself. Is it clear that he has his personal agenda of somekind, against magicka dragonknight proffesion. The number of posts in this and every other thread involving magicka dragonknight in unbelievable, but the thing is, all posts are exacly the same.

When you are talking/writing, you are only repeating what you already know, try listening others and learn something new.

But lets get back on topic; mDK, power leash cooldown, combos.
What everyone forget is Shattering Rocks morph. Let me explain:

Power Lash ability was designed to not have cooldown nor be dodgeable. Why?
Cooldown:
Shattering rocks is designed to set enemies in 8m radius offbalance with 50% chance rate, so you can get more Power lashes, therefore more heals. With 3s cooldown, Shattering rocks doesnt serve its purpose.
Dodgeable:
Power lash can be used only on offblance enemies, therefore its 3rd ability in a chain, witch means target knows it comming 3 seconds beforehand. It musn't get dodgeable since Flame lash is dodgeable and if you evade it, you ruin attackers combo and not get offbalanced on the first place.

Well thats my peronal opinion, I voiced it, so should everyone else, except DDuke as he read his too many times already.

Well, thing is I'm actually testing these changes on PTS (limited to dueling, unfortunately) & I'm not noticing any negative, unnecessary effects from these changes in 1v1 situations - quite the contrary. That is not an "opinion", that is a fact based on performance.


How mDK will perform in open world after these changes, who knows - but as a pretty experienced theorycrafter (on all classes) with pretty good idea of every class & game mechanic, I'd say it'll do fine. We'll see.

Nobody here can QQ about mDK getting nerfed, because they haven't tested it in open world yet.


I don't think anyone who has tested it extensively on PTS can claim it's getting nerfed in duels either.

There is zero factual basis for that claim - so far the changes have made my mDK stronger all around vs builds I'd struggle against before.


So if you have a problem with my attitude, take it to pms. I'm one of the few people actually testing & theorycrafting things and not just QQing.


P.S. Nobody uses Shattering Rocks, that morph needs massive buffing/revamp (maybe it could even get its 15m range back since it has no root attached). Other DK skills/morphs that could use buffs (see, I do have an agenda: a better game): Hardened Armor, Reflective Plate, Deep Breath, Igneous Weapons, Obsidian Shield (both morphs), Ash Cloud (both morphs).

P.P.S. I'll still gladly prove to anyone why this Power Lash change was necessary (on Live) & why mDK still works more than fine on PTS. I'm available for PTS (and Live) duels/testing at all times.

The only way to make Power Lash powerful on Live is to build for it (forsaking a Restoration Staff for a Lightning Staff to apply Off-Balance with Blockade) which means MagDK is the ONLY class that has to use a specific build type to make their class-based proc skill more viable.

This also means MagDK is the only class with a skill proc which has to sacrifice drastic amounts of survivability to do so.

For the other proc skill-toting classes, all you need to do is weave in some light and heavy attacks (which is normal for Magblades anyway) or literally just use your usual normal abilities until you get the proc every few seconds (Sorcerer).

---

What truly needs to happen to block-dropping hard CCs is that more ranged and mobile classes need to receive shorter ranges for these types of stuns since they can get in and get out of close range as needed, and MagDK needs the longer range block-dropper CC because it has to catch up to its enemies (even with your silly bugged Chains, you won't be staying on a legitimately mobile build's tail for long without running out of magicka).

You SHOULD be punished offensively for running away which is not currently the case for Sorcerer which has a lot of time-delayed burst damage from range including a passive execute and semi-passive skill-based execute.

It's not fair to melee classes which have to work harder to maintain pressure when ranged builds of other classes can do just as well from range and without putting themselves in as much danger.

---

pieratsos wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Quantum_V wrote: »

So from testing in PTS:

magDK is not bad - lets get that out of the way.

BUT

mDK feels clunky, doesn't feel smooth at all, double powerlashing is a mechanic that you rarely see specially when your opponent (specially magsorcs) realize that if they dodge the first powerlash they're good. mDK playstyle was changed significantly and it was just a matter of time until the stamplars and stamblades I was fighting to realize that dodging backwards or dodging and then immediately blocking was an effective way to quickly shutdown mDKs offensive windows.

There is no magicka sorc in the universe that can sustain dodging & CC breaking every 7s, especially now that Immovable potions are nerfed. If you find that a sorc has the impulse to dodge Fossilize->FL->PL, then what you can do is hold that PL for a second, cast embers , chains, rebuff/whatever & watch that sorc spend 1/4th of his stamina bar dodge rolling for nothing.

It's about outplaying your opponent now rather than having guaranteed damage, and the exact same goes for stamina builds as well.

I'm still missing lots of PLs as well on PTS (around 50% of them) vs stamina builds, but it's all about adjusting, getting the Fossilize->FL->PL rotation out of your muscle memory & replacing it with something else. Stam build CC breaks, rolls backwards?

You leap (lands before dodge roll animation ends)->LA+PL & if they're still alive they're at 20-30% health, low stam and about to die to your next Fossilize if they've no Rally built up.

Treat PL more as a proc and less as some guaranteed burst. Just like Assassin's Will, Frags etc, land them when you know (or are very certain atleast) you can land them.

Takes some practice, but that's a good thing.

Melee-ranged abilities should be more rewarding to use than ranged abilities, hands down.

Nightblades get resources back just for doing light attacks during Grim Focus, and Sorcerers get health back for firing off their Dark Magic abilities which Crystal Fragments is.

It's also A LOT easier to tell when a magDK has a Power Lash ready because the whole process is telegraphed right in your face with their stun or immobilize.

You can't use visual effects of Crystal Fragments to predict the Sorcerer firing it because they can hold it for a while and have no cooldown on getting another proc right after if rng is on their side. The same thing applies to Assassin's Will; you can't keep a constant count of how many light and heavy attacks someone has fired off throughout a fight, so there's no way to predict when they'll fire it.

For Power Lash, you only get it if you hit someone from melee-range with Flame Lash first while they're also immobilized or CC'd. Those CCs or immobilizations TELL them you're definitely going to be attempting a Power Lash, and dodge the first one, and simply stay away from you or stun you to prevent the second Power Lash.

On PTS, it's now much easier to predict and evade Power Lash (a very limited proc now with a cooldown and stuck at melee range) from hitting you than it is to predict and dodge Assassin's Will or Crystal Fragments (two ranged procs which give you more freedom of movement and freedom of choice to use them at certain times).

ESO is now rewarding being a ranged magicka build and running away to pew pew at your opponent from afar, rather than rewarding those who stay and fight head-on.

Your insight on other classes and ur comparisons are tragic to say the least. Your bias is all over the place. You are comparing apples with oranges, u are adding other skills and passives into the comparison to make frags and spectral bow look stronger and power lash weaker. You are comparing lash, frag, spectral bow. Not lash, frag + passives, spectral bow + other skills.

Spectral bow needs 5 light attacks to proc so it basically has a longer cooldown than power lash. The skill is beyond clunky, the projectile very slow, dodgeable, reflectable, you can easily predict when its coming, no cc or heal or resources attached to it and has a cost. You have to use it in a combo.

Frag again does not heal you. That is a passive which is completely irrelevant. But since you mentioned that passive let me tell you what it does. Its 8% of ur hp. That means 4% of ur hp in cyro. That means less than 1k heal. That is one of the most useless passives considering the only way you proc it is with frag and mines. It doesnt even worth the 2 skill points you put into it. Power lash on the other hand has a breath of life attached to it. Not from a passive.

Frags most certainly have visual cues. They last 6-7 seconds, you always know when they are ready since sorc hands glow with crystals around them and even if u cant see that you can ALWAYS predict when they are coming. Sorcs have the most predictable burst in the game. Frags will come with curse. And im not even going to get into addons like Miats that basically tells you about incoming frags without even having the sorc in ur screen. If you cant predict their burst you are doing something very very wrong. They have no sustained dmg. Frags are harmless without a combo. They also have no CC attached to it, they are slow, reflectable and dodgeable.

The point isnt which ability is better. All 3 of them have their pros and cons. The point is that both frags and spectral bow need to be used in combos otherwise they are easily countered. That doesnt make the abilities useless. Power lash gets the same treatment. Stop feeling entitled to undodgeable lashes for no reason at all and instead work with your combos.

MIATs is getting disabled, which entirely defeats one of your points, and the other points aren't even worth the energy to type a response to because it's just more line-toeing for non-DK classes in a DK balance thread.

MIAT's wasnt even a point. It was just the icing of the cake and if its actually getting disabled and not just the cast time notifications then good riddance. Will finally be free of potatoes with eyes behind their back.

As far as the other points are concerned you wont answer them because there is really nothing you can say. Those are facts and not stupid biased statements like talons is bad for your class. Lmao. If its so bad feel free to give it to templars. Im sure they'd love it. Feel free to join the other thread too with the other biased guy who believes spectral bow hits for 30k.

PS. The bolded parts really made me lol. So according to you a ranged class should be punished for being able to stay at range. And melee classes should be rewarded for not being able to keep their opponents in melee.

And range is favoured in this game and they never have to go in melee. In a game where everyone and their mother has roots snares and spammable gap closers range is in favour. Wasnt you the one who were complaining about snares and roots? Now range is in favour?

And they dont have to go in melee. You do realise that magblades literally have to go in melee range to use their fear-ult-spectral bow combo right? Do you even think before you post?

DDuke

susniand wrote: »

Allright, I reread my own post and it feels like ... Lets just say I didnt want it to sound as it does.
I didnt want to offend anyone/Dduke. If I did I apolagize. I dont have anything against you and I dont know you, I also dont have any desire to argue over pms. You voiced your oppinion, i did mine, lets be done with it.
What I wrote was just my genuine respond based on all your replies and other posts in this thread. Im sure ignoring that, you must be a great guy.

That's ok, I will apologize as well if my manner of arguing has offended.

And I do know how it must look from your perspective: a player who's most played character is a stamblade makes a mDK, makes a few mediocre videos & tries to get mDK nerfed. I get it.

That is not the case though, I really like playing my mDK (just like I enjoyed playing heavy Fasallas+Malubeth magicka templar until the proc meta, good times), it plays very much like an old school stamblade: gap closer in, CC->burst->kill next target - but I also really think it's overpowered against and ruins (not on its own of course, but its probably the most disgusting build to come across for any dodge roller) the game for dodge roll builds.

It just so happens that if you stack enough undodgeable damage on a build and can reliably stick to a target, it becomes a bit broken against medium armor characters who depend on that dodge roll.


I can understand the perspective of other mDKs on this thread that might not be playing builds similar to mine, but more blocking oriented ones, perhaps without the gap closer etc - these builds I can see tanking multiple players better, but I can also seem them having more issues with dodge rolling opponents as outdamaging their heals & being able to stick to them isn't a guarantee any longer.


We're talking about two very different types of mDK being impacted very differently by these changes to PL & I don't think either one should be ignored in their concerns.


That's why I listed many skills that I feel are underperforming on mDK - (m)any of these could be buffed to boost the "stand your ground" tank style mDK, without imbalancing the high dmg mobile destro build vs dodge roller fights.


Though to be honest, I think even a tank DK should be able to deal with most dodge rollers no problem with Chains, many underestimate this skill's power (especially in open world 1vX). Ones with defensive sets like Troll King might pose problems though.


Random thought: maybe what tank mDKs need is an access to Major Defile (outside a 250 costing ultimate)? E.g. from Ash Cloud, Fragmented Shield or something.

susniand wrote: »

My own oppinion on Shattering rocks is diferent, its good "other" morph, it just need to be working, therefore powerlash musnt get cooldown of any kind nor be dodgeable. If its overperforming because not consuming offbalace, witch is does, it needs to be toned down some other way, but not with cooldown or being dodgeable.
It would overperform only if its spammed, witch could be maybe solved with lowering its damage by certain percent for every cast in very next gcd on same target.

Well, I can symphatize with that as well, but I don't think the ideal solution would be to change all DK builds based on a morph a minority uses. Perhaps they could attach some debuff to that morph, maybe even that Major Defile to everyone it damages. That'd certainly fit tank DK playstyle, while the rest likely still pick the root morph. Just some ideas.

That morph definitely stands to lose a lot of value from the added cooldown, so it needs some sort of compensation.

susniand wrote: »

Witch brings me to Stonegiant, its in same skillline as Petrify morps, thus procing same passives and in general too similar. Id like it to change to range spammable of somekind, with its damage scaling with range, that would help ranged characters of this proffesion and we would have nice morph choices; Stonegiand as range damaging and Obsidian shard as range support and it wouldnt be the " same" as Petrify morphs.

Isn't that what it currently does? One damage morph & another healing morph. I don't see them used much though, maybe one day when ranged mDK is more viable

FlamingBeard

pieratsos wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

susniand wrote: »

Let me say that Im reading these forums, along with Reddit, on daily basis and until now I didnt feel the need to post anything here.

I read all 13 pages over last two days and suddenly have urge to post something, so I went and requested forum invite via support and registered - the reason is DDuke and his attidute.
He made first and only mdk build, not that original not great on the first place, and suddenly hes acting like Mr. Knowitall, arguing with everyone with diferent oppinion from himself. Is it clear that he has his personal agenda of somekind, against magicka dragonknight proffesion. The number of posts in this and every other thread involving magicka dragonknight in unbelievable, but the thing is, all posts are exacly the same.

When you are talking/writing, you are only repeating what you already know, try listening others and learn something new.

But lets get back on topic; mDK, power leash cooldown, combos.
What everyone forget is Shattering Rocks morph. Let me explain:

Power Lash ability was designed to not have cooldown nor be dodgeable. Why?
Cooldown:
Shattering rocks is designed to set enemies in 8m radius offbalance with 50% chance rate, so you can get more Power lashes, therefore more heals. With 3s cooldown, Shattering rocks doesnt serve its purpose.
Dodgeable:
Power lash can be used only on offblance enemies, therefore its 3rd ability in a chain, witch means target knows it comming 3 seconds beforehand. It musn't get dodgeable since Flame lash is dodgeable and if you evade it, you ruin attackers combo and not get offbalanced on the first place.

Well thats my peronal opinion, I voiced it, so should everyone else, except DDuke as he read his too many times already.

Well, thing is I'm actually testing these changes on PTS (limited to dueling, unfortunately) & I'm not noticing any negative, unnecessary effects from these changes in 1v1 situations - quite the contrary. That is not an "opinion", that is a fact based on performance.


How mDK will perform in open world after these changes, who knows - but as a pretty experienced theorycrafter (on all classes) with pretty good idea of every class & game mechanic, I'd say it'll do fine. We'll see.

Nobody here can QQ about mDK getting nerfed, because they haven't tested it in open world yet.


I don't think anyone who has tested it extensively on PTS can claim it's getting nerfed in duels either.

There is zero factual basis for that claim - so far the changes have made my mDK stronger all around vs builds I'd struggle against before.


So if you have a problem with my attitude, take it to pms. I'm one of the few people actually testing & theorycrafting things and not just QQing.


P.S. Nobody uses Shattering Rocks, that morph needs massive buffing/revamp (maybe it could even get its 15m range back since it has no root attached). Other DK skills/morphs that could use buffs (see, I do have an agenda: a better game): Hardened Armor, Reflective Plate, Deep Breath, Igneous Weapons, Obsidian Shield (both morphs), Ash Cloud (both morphs).

P.P.S. I'll still gladly prove to anyone why this Power Lash change was necessary (on Live) & why mDK still works more than fine on PTS. I'm available for PTS (and Live) duels/testing at all times.

The only way to make Power Lash powerful on Live is to build for it (forsaking a Restoration Staff for a Lightning Staff to apply Off-Balance with Blockade) which means MagDK is the ONLY class that has to use a specific build type to make their class-based proc skill more viable.

This also means MagDK is the only class with a skill proc which has to sacrifice drastic amounts of survivability to do so.

For the other proc skill-toting classes, all you need to do is weave in some light and heavy attacks (which is normal for Magblades anyway) or literally just use your usual normal abilities until you get the proc every few seconds (Sorcerer).

---

What truly needs to happen to block-dropping hard CCs is that more ranged and mobile classes need to receive shorter ranges for these types of stuns since they can get in and get out of close range as needed, and MagDK needs the longer range block-dropper CC because it has to catch up to its enemies (even with your silly bugged Chains, you won't be staying on a legitimately mobile build's tail for long without running out of magicka).

You SHOULD be punished offensively for running away which is not currently the case for Sorcerer which has a lot of time-delayed burst damage from range including a passive execute and semi-passive skill-based execute.

It's not fair to melee classes which have to work harder to maintain pressure when ranged builds of other classes can do just as well from range and without putting themselves in as much danger.

---

pieratsos wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Quantum_V wrote: »

So from testing in PTS:

magDK is not bad - lets get that out of the way.

BUT

mDK feels clunky, doesn't feel smooth at all, double powerlashing is a mechanic that you rarely see specially when your opponent (specially magsorcs) realize that if they dodge the first powerlash they're good. mDK playstyle was changed significantly and it was just a matter of time until the stamplars and stamblades I was fighting to realize that dodging backwards or dodging and then immediately blocking was an effective way to quickly shutdown mDKs offensive windows.

There is no magicka sorc in the universe that can sustain dodging & CC breaking every 7s, especially now that Immovable potions are nerfed. If you find that a sorc has the impulse to dodge Fossilize->FL->PL, then what you can do is hold that PL for a second, cast embers , chains, rebuff/whatever & watch that sorc spend 1/4th of his stamina bar dodge rolling for nothing.

It's about outplaying your opponent now rather than having guaranteed damage, and the exact same goes for stamina builds as well.

I'm still missing lots of PLs as well on PTS (around 50% of them) vs stamina builds, but it's all about adjusting, getting the Fossilize->FL->PL rotation out of your muscle memory & replacing it with something else. Stam build CC breaks, rolls backwards?

You leap (lands before dodge roll animation ends)->LA+PL & if they're still alive they're at 20-30% health, low stam and about to die to your next Fossilize if they've no Rally built up.

Treat PL more as a proc and less as some guaranteed burst. Just like Assassin's Will, Frags etc, land them when you know (or are very certain atleast) you can land them.

Takes some practice, but that's a good thing.

Melee-ranged abilities should be more rewarding to use than ranged abilities, hands down.

Nightblades get resources back just for doing light attacks during Grim Focus, and Sorcerers get health back for firing off their Dark Magic abilities which Crystal Fragments is.

It's also A LOT easier to tell when a magDK has a Power Lash ready because the whole process is telegraphed right in your face with their stun or immobilize.

You can't use visual effects of Crystal Fragments to predict the Sorcerer firing it because they can hold it for a while and have no cooldown on getting another proc right after if rng is on their side. The same thing applies to Assassin's Will; you can't keep a constant count of how many light and heavy attacks someone has fired off throughout a fight, so there's no way to predict when they'll fire it.

For Power Lash, you only get it if you hit someone from melee-range with Flame Lash first while they're also immobilized or CC'd. Those CCs or immobilizations TELL them you're definitely going to be attempting a Power Lash, and dodge the first one, and simply stay away from you or stun you to prevent the second Power Lash.

On PTS, it's now much easier to predict and evade Power Lash (a very limited proc now with a cooldown and stuck at melee range) from hitting you than it is to predict and dodge Assassin's Will or Crystal Fragments (two ranged procs which give you more freedom of movement and freedom of choice to use them at certain times).

ESO is now rewarding being a ranged magicka build and running away to pew pew at your opponent from afar, rather than rewarding those who stay and fight head-on.

Your insight on other classes and ur comparisons are tragic to say the least. Your bias is all over the place. You are comparing apples with oranges, u are adding other skills and passives into the comparison to make frags and spectral bow look stronger and power lash weaker. You are comparing lash, frag, spectral bow. Not lash, frag + passives, spectral bow + other skills.

Spectral bow needs 5 light attacks to proc so it basically has a longer cooldown than power lash. The skill is beyond clunky, the projectile very slow, dodgeable, reflectable, you can easily predict when its coming, no cc or heal or resources attached to it and has a cost. You have to use it in a combo.

Frag again does not heal you. That is a passive which is completely irrelevant. But since you mentioned that passive let me tell you what it does. Its 8% of ur hp. That means 4% of ur hp in cyro. That means less than 1k heal. That is one of the most useless passives considering the only way you proc it is with frag and mines. It doesnt even worth the 2 skill points you put into it. Power lash on the other hand has a breath of life attached to it. Not from a passive.

Frags most certainly have visual cues. They last 6-7 seconds, you always know when they are ready since sorc hands glow with crystals around them and even if u cant see that you can ALWAYS predict when they are coming. Sorcs have the most predictable burst in the game. Frags will come with curse. And im not even going to get into addons like Miats that basically tells you about incoming frags without even having the sorc in ur screen. If you cant predict their burst you are doing something very very wrong. They have no sustained dmg. Frags are harmless without a combo. They also have no CC attached to it, they are slow, reflectable and dodgeable.

The point isnt which ability is better. All 3 of them have their pros and cons. The point is that both frags and spectral bow need to be used in combos otherwise they are easily countered. That doesnt make the abilities useless. Power lash gets the same treatment. Stop feeling entitled to undodgeable lashes for no reason at all and instead work with your combos.

MIATs is getting disabled, which entirely defeats one of your points, and the other points aren't even worth the energy to type a response to because it's just more line-toeing for non-DK classes in a DK balance thread.

MIAT's wasnt even a point. It was just the icing of the cake and if its actually getting disabled and not just the cast time notifications then good riddance. Will finally be free of potatoes with eyes behind their back.

As far as the other points are concerned you wont answer them because there is really nothing you can say. Those are facts and not stupid biased statements like talons is bad for your class. Lmao. If its so bad feel free to give it to templars. Im sure they'd love it. Feel free to join the other thread too with the other biased guy who believes spectral bow hits for 30k.

PS. The bolded parts really made me lol. So according to you a ranged class should be punished for being able to stay at range. And melee classes should be rewarded for not being able to keep their opponents in melee.

And range is favoured in this game and they never have to go in melee. In a game where everyone and their mother has roots snares and spammable gap closers range is in favour. Wasnt you the one who were complaining about snares and roots? Now range is in favour?

And they dont have to go in melee. You do realise that magblades literally have to go in melee range to use their fear-ult-spectral bow combo right? Do you even think before you post?

Do you think at all?

LA > Swallow Soul > LA > Crippling Grasp > LA > Shooting Star > LA > Prolonged Suffering to drop block > Assassin's Will > Impale

There's freedom in that rotation as well, because you can add another Swallow Soul before Impale if you're confident in your weaving.

You can skip weaving the light attacks and just have the Assassin's Will built up already but if you're good at weaving, there's no reason not to do it even if you have the proc already, since they do nice chip damage. And guess what, you can use Shade or Cloak away to escape if you fail to kill your target.

MagDK has to get close before even being able to drop enemy block and once they get close, they're pretty much stuck there without spamming Elusive Mist and even that can fall through if the enemy has any form of snares.

JobooAGS

FlamingBeard wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

susniand wrote: »

Let me say that Im reading these forums, along with Reddit, on daily basis and until now I didnt feel the need to post anything here.

I read all 13 pages over last two days and suddenly have urge to post something, so I went and requested forum invite via support and registered - the reason is DDuke and his attidute.
He made first and only mdk build, not that original not great on the first place, and suddenly hes acting like Mr. Knowitall, arguing with everyone with diferent oppinion from himself. Is it clear that he has his personal agenda of somekind, against magicka dragonknight proffesion. The number of posts in this and every other thread involving magicka dragonknight in unbelievable, but the thing is, all posts are exacly the same.

When you are talking/writing, you are only repeating what you already know, try listening others and learn something new.

But lets get back on topic; mDK, power leash cooldown, combos.
What everyone forget is Shattering Rocks morph. Let me explain:

Power Lash ability was designed to not have cooldown nor be dodgeable. Why?
Cooldown:
Shattering rocks is designed to set enemies in 8m radius offbalance with 50% chance rate, so you can get more Power lashes, therefore more heals. With 3s cooldown, Shattering rocks doesnt serve its purpose.
Dodgeable:
Power lash can be used only on offblance enemies, therefore its 3rd ability in a chain, witch means target knows it comming 3 seconds beforehand. It musn't get dodgeable since Flame lash is dodgeable and if you evade it, you ruin attackers combo and not get offbalanced on the first place.

Well thats my peronal opinion, I voiced it, so should everyone else, except DDuke as he read his too many times already.

Well, thing is I'm actually testing these changes on PTS (limited to dueling, unfortunately) & I'm not noticing any negative, unnecessary effects from these changes in 1v1 situations - quite the contrary. That is not an "opinion", that is a fact based on performance.


How mDK will perform in open world after these changes, who knows - but as a pretty experienced theorycrafter (on all classes) with pretty good idea of every class & game mechanic, I'd say it'll do fine. We'll see.

Nobody here can QQ about mDK getting nerfed, because they haven't tested it in open world yet.


I don't think anyone who has tested it extensively on PTS can claim it's getting nerfed in duels either.

There is zero factual basis for that claim - so far the changes have made my mDK stronger all around vs builds I'd struggle against before.


So if you have a problem with my attitude, take it to pms. I'm one of the few people actually testing & theorycrafting things and not just QQing.


P.S. Nobody uses Shattering Rocks, that morph needs massive buffing/revamp (maybe it could even get its 15m range back since it has no root attached). Other DK skills/morphs that could use buffs (see, I do have an agenda: a better game): Hardened Armor, Reflective Plate, Deep Breath, Igneous Weapons, Obsidian Shield (both morphs), Ash Cloud (both morphs).

P.P.S. I'll still gladly prove to anyone why this Power Lash change was necessary (on Live) & why mDK still works more than fine on PTS. I'm available for PTS (and Live) duels/testing at all times.

The only way to make Power Lash powerful on Live is to build for it (forsaking a Restoration Staff for a Lightning Staff to apply Off-Balance with Blockade) which means MagDK is the ONLY class that has to use a specific build type to make their class-based proc skill more viable.

This also means MagDK is the only class with a skill proc which has to sacrifice drastic amounts of survivability to do so.

For the other proc skill-toting classes, all you need to do is weave in some light and heavy attacks (which is normal for Magblades anyway) or literally just use your usual normal abilities until you get the proc every few seconds (Sorcerer).

---

What truly needs to happen to block-dropping hard CCs is that more ranged and mobile classes need to receive shorter ranges for these types of stuns since they can get in and get out of close range as needed, and MagDK needs the longer range block-dropper CC because it has to catch up to its enemies (even with your silly bugged Chains, you won't be staying on a legitimately mobile build's tail for long without running out of magicka).

You SHOULD be punished offensively for running away which is not currently the case for Sorcerer which has a lot of time-delayed burst damage from range including a passive execute and semi-passive skill-based execute.

It's not fair to melee classes which have to work harder to maintain pressure when ranged builds of other classes can do just as well from range and without putting themselves in as much danger.

---

pieratsos wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Quantum_V wrote: »

So from testing in PTS:

magDK is not bad - lets get that out of the way.

BUT

mDK feels clunky, doesn't feel smooth at all, double powerlashing is a mechanic that you rarely see specially when your opponent (specially magsorcs) realize that if they dodge the first powerlash they're good. mDK playstyle was changed significantly and it was just a matter of time until the stamplars and stamblades I was fighting to realize that dodging backwards or dodging and then immediately blocking was an effective way to quickly shutdown mDKs offensive windows.

There is no magicka sorc in the universe that can sustain dodging & CC breaking every 7s, especially now that Immovable potions are nerfed. If you find that a sorc has the impulse to dodge Fossilize->FL->PL, then what you can do is hold that PL for a second, cast embers , chains, rebuff/whatever & watch that sorc spend 1/4th of his stamina bar dodge rolling for nothing.

It's about outplaying your opponent now rather than having guaranteed damage, and the exact same goes for stamina builds as well.

I'm still missing lots of PLs as well on PTS (around 50% of them) vs stamina builds, but it's all about adjusting, getting the Fossilize->FL->PL rotation out of your muscle memory & replacing it with something else. Stam build CC breaks, rolls backwards?

You leap (lands before dodge roll animation ends)->LA+PL & if they're still alive they're at 20-30% health, low stam and about to die to your next Fossilize if they've no Rally built up.

Treat PL more as a proc and less as some guaranteed burst. Just like Assassin's Will, Frags etc, land them when you know (or are very certain atleast) you can land them.

Takes some practice, but that's a good thing.

Melee-ranged abilities should be more rewarding to use than ranged abilities, hands down.

Nightblades get resources back just for doing light attacks during Grim Focus, and Sorcerers get health back for firing off their Dark Magic abilities which Crystal Fragments is.

It's also A LOT easier to tell when a magDK has a Power Lash ready because the whole process is telegraphed right in your face with their stun or immobilize.

You can't use visual effects of Crystal Fragments to predict the Sorcerer firing it because they can hold it for a while and have no cooldown on getting another proc right after if rng is on their side. The same thing applies to Assassin's Will; you can't keep a constant count of how many light and heavy attacks someone has fired off throughout a fight, so there's no way to predict when they'll fire it.

For Power Lash, you only get it if you hit someone from melee-range with Flame Lash first while they're also immobilized or CC'd. Those CCs or immobilizations TELL them you're definitely going to be attempting a Power Lash, and dodge the first one, and simply stay away from you or stun you to prevent the second Power Lash.

On PTS, it's now much easier to predict and evade Power Lash (a very limited proc now with a cooldown and stuck at melee range) from hitting you than it is to predict and dodge Assassin's Will or Crystal Fragments (two ranged procs which give you more freedom of movement and freedom of choice to use them at certain times).

ESO is now rewarding being a ranged magicka build and running away to pew pew at your opponent from afar, rather than rewarding those who stay and fight head-on.

Your insight on other classes and ur comparisons are tragic to say the least. Your bias is all over the place. You are comparing apples with oranges, u are adding other skills and passives into the comparison to make frags and spectral bow look stronger and power lash weaker. You are comparing lash, frag, spectral bow. Not lash, frag + passives, spectral bow + other skills.

Spectral bow needs 5 light attacks to proc so it basically has a longer cooldown than power lash. The skill is beyond clunky, the projectile very slow, dodgeable, reflectable, you can easily predict when its coming, no cc or heal or resources attached to it and has a cost. You have to use it in a combo.

Frag again does not heal you. That is a passive which is completely irrelevant. But since you mentioned that passive let me tell you what it does. Its 8% of ur hp. That means 4% of ur hp in cyro. That means less than 1k heal. That is one of the most useless passives considering the only way you proc it is with frag and mines. It doesnt even worth the 2 skill points you put into it. Power lash on the other hand has a breath of life attached to it. Not from a passive.

Frags most certainly have visual cues. They last 6-7 seconds, you always know when they are ready since sorc hands glow with crystals around them and even if u cant see that you can ALWAYS predict when they are coming. Sorcs have the most predictable burst in the game. Frags will come with curse. And im not even going to get into addons like Miats that basically tells you about incoming frags without even having the sorc in ur screen. If you cant predict their burst you are doing something very very wrong. They have no sustained dmg. Frags are harmless without a combo. They also have no CC attached to it, they are slow, reflectable and dodgeable.

The point isnt which ability is better. All 3 of them have their pros and cons. The point is that both frags and spectral bow need to be used in combos otherwise they are easily countered. That doesnt make the abilities useless. Power lash gets the same treatment. Stop feeling entitled to undodgeable lashes for no reason at all and instead work with your combos.

MIATs is getting disabled, which entirely defeats one of your points, and the other points aren't even worth the energy to type a response to because it's just more line-toeing for non-DK classes in a DK balance thread.

MIAT's wasnt even a point. It was just the icing of the cake and if its actually getting disabled and not just the cast time notifications then good riddance. Will finally be free of potatoes with eyes behind their back.

As far as the other points are concerned you wont answer them because there is really nothing you can say. Those are facts and not stupid biased statements like talons is bad for your class. Lmao. If its so bad feel free to give it to templars. Im sure they'd love it. Feel free to join the other thread too with the other biased guy who believes spectral bow hits for 30k.

PS. The bolded parts really made me lol. So according to you a ranged class should be punished for being able to stay at range. And melee classes should be rewarded for not being able to keep their opponents in melee.

And range is favoured in this game and they never have to go in melee. In a game where everyone and their mother has roots snares and spammable gap closers range is in favour. Wasnt you the one who were complaining about snares and roots? Now range is in favour?

And they dont have to go in melee. You do realise that magblades literally have to go in melee range to use their fear-ult-spectral bow combo right? Do you even think before you post?

Do you think at all?

LA > Swallow Soul > LA > Crippling Grasp > LA > Shooting Star > LA > Prolonged Suffering to drop block > Assassin's Will > Impale

There's freedom in that rotation as well, because you can add another Swallow Soul before Impale if you're confident in your weaving.

You can skip weaving the light attacks and just have the Assassin's Will built up already but if you're good at weaving, there's no reason not to do it even if you have the proc already, since they do nice chip damage. And guess what, you can use Shade or Cloak away to escape if you fail to kill your target.

MagDK has to get close before even being able to drop enemy block and once they get close, they're pretty much stuck there without spamming Elusive Mist and even that can fall through if the enemy has any form of snares.

you do realize that prolonged suffering no longer exists....

DDuke

JobooAGS wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

susniand wrote: »

Let me say that Im reading these forums, along with Reddit, on daily basis and until now I didnt feel the need to post anything here.

I read all 13 pages over last two days and suddenly have urge to post something, so I went and requested forum invite via support and registered - the reason is DDuke and his attidute.
He made first and only mdk build, not that original not great on the first place, and suddenly hes acting like Mr. Knowitall, arguing with everyone with diferent oppinion from himself. Is it clear that he has his personal agenda of somekind, against magicka dragonknight proffesion. The number of posts in this and every other thread involving magicka dragonknight in unbelievable, but the thing is, all posts are exacly the same.

When you are talking/writing, you are only repeating what you already know, try listening others and learn something new.

But lets get back on topic; mDK, power leash cooldown, combos.
What everyone forget is Shattering Rocks morph. Let me explain:

Power Lash ability was designed to not have cooldown nor be dodgeable. Why?
Cooldown:
Shattering rocks is designed to set enemies in 8m radius offbalance with 50% chance rate, so you can get more Power lashes, therefore more heals. With 3s cooldown, Shattering rocks doesnt serve its purpose.
Dodgeable:
Power lash can be used only on offblance enemies, therefore its 3rd ability in a chain, witch means target knows it comming 3 seconds beforehand. It musn't get dodgeable since Flame lash is dodgeable and if you evade it, you ruin attackers combo and not get offbalanced on the first place.

Well thats my peronal opinion, I voiced it, so should everyone else, except DDuke as he read his too many times already.

Well, thing is I'm actually testing these changes on PTS (limited to dueling, unfortunately) & I'm not noticing any negative, unnecessary effects from these changes in 1v1 situations - quite the contrary. That is not an "opinion", that is a fact based on performance.


How mDK will perform in open world after these changes, who knows - but as a pretty experienced theorycrafter (on all classes) with pretty good idea of every class & game mechanic, I'd say it'll do fine. We'll see.

Nobody here can QQ about mDK getting nerfed, because they haven't tested it in open world yet.


I don't think anyone who has tested it extensively on PTS can claim it's getting nerfed in duels either.

There is zero factual basis for that claim - so far the changes have made my mDK stronger all around vs builds I'd struggle against before.


So if you have a problem with my attitude, take it to pms. I'm one of the few people actually testing & theorycrafting things and not just QQing.


P.S. Nobody uses Shattering Rocks, that morph needs massive buffing/revamp (maybe it could even get its 15m range back since it has no root attached). Other DK skills/morphs that could use buffs (see, I do have an agenda: a better game): Hardened Armor, Reflective Plate, Deep Breath, Igneous Weapons, Obsidian Shield (both morphs), Ash Cloud (both morphs).

P.P.S. I'll still gladly prove to anyone why this Power Lash change was necessary (on Live) & why mDK still works more than fine on PTS. I'm available for PTS (and Live) duels/testing at all times.

The only way to make Power Lash powerful on Live is to build for it (forsaking a Restoration Staff for a Lightning Staff to apply Off-Balance with Blockade) which means MagDK is the ONLY class that has to use a specific build type to make their class-based proc skill more viable.

This also means MagDK is the only class with a skill proc which has to sacrifice drastic amounts of survivability to do so.

For the other proc skill-toting classes, all you need to do is weave in some light and heavy attacks (which is normal for Magblades anyway) or literally just use your usual normal abilities until you get the proc every few seconds (Sorcerer).

---

What truly needs to happen to block-dropping hard CCs is that more ranged and mobile classes need to receive shorter ranges for these types of stuns since they can get in and get out of close range as needed, and MagDK needs the longer range block-dropper CC because it has to catch up to its enemies (even with your silly bugged Chains, you won't be staying on a legitimately mobile build's tail for long without running out of magicka).

You SHOULD be punished offensively for running away which is not currently the case for Sorcerer which has a lot of time-delayed burst damage from range including a passive execute and semi-passive skill-based execute.

It's not fair to melee classes which have to work harder to maintain pressure when ranged builds of other classes can do just as well from range and without putting themselves in as much danger.

---

pieratsos wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Quantum_V wrote: »

So from testing in PTS:

magDK is not bad - lets get that out of the way.

BUT

mDK feels clunky, doesn't feel smooth at all, double powerlashing is a mechanic that you rarely see specially when your opponent (specially magsorcs) realize that if they dodge the first powerlash they're good. mDK playstyle was changed significantly and it was just a matter of time until the stamplars and stamblades I was fighting to realize that dodging backwards or dodging and then immediately blocking was an effective way to quickly shutdown mDKs offensive windows.

There is no magicka sorc in the universe that can sustain dodging & CC breaking every 7s, especially now that Immovable potions are nerfed. If you find that a sorc has the impulse to dodge Fossilize->FL->PL, then what you can do is hold that PL for a second, cast embers , chains, rebuff/whatever & watch that sorc spend 1/4th of his stamina bar dodge rolling for nothing.

It's about outplaying your opponent now rather than having guaranteed damage, and the exact same goes for stamina builds as well.

I'm still missing lots of PLs as well on PTS (around 50% of them) vs stamina builds, but it's all about adjusting, getting the Fossilize->FL->PL rotation out of your muscle memory & replacing it with something else. Stam build CC breaks, rolls backwards?

You leap (lands before dodge roll animation ends)->LA+PL & if they're still alive they're at 20-30% health, low stam and about to die to your next Fossilize if they've no Rally built up.

Treat PL more as a proc and less as some guaranteed burst. Just like Assassin's Will, Frags etc, land them when you know (or are very certain atleast) you can land them.

Takes some practice, but that's a good thing.

Melee-ranged abilities should be more rewarding to use than ranged abilities, hands down.

Nightblades get resources back just for doing light attacks during Grim Focus, and Sorcerers get health back for firing off their Dark Magic abilities which Crystal Fragments is.

It's also A LOT easier to tell when a magDK has a Power Lash ready because the whole process is telegraphed right in your face with their stun or immobilize.

You can't use visual effects of Crystal Fragments to predict the Sorcerer firing it because they can hold it for a while and have no cooldown on getting another proc right after if rng is on their side. The same thing applies to Assassin's Will; you can't keep a constant count of how many light and heavy attacks someone has fired off throughout a fight, so there's no way to predict when they'll fire it.

For Power Lash, you only get it if you hit someone from melee-range with Flame Lash first while they're also immobilized or CC'd. Those CCs or immobilizations TELL them you're definitely going to be attempting a Power Lash, and dodge the first one, and simply stay away from you or stun you to prevent the second Power Lash.

On PTS, it's now much easier to predict and evade Power Lash (a very limited proc now with a cooldown and stuck at melee range) from hitting you than it is to predict and dodge Assassin's Will or Crystal Fragments (two ranged procs which give you more freedom of movement and freedom of choice to use them at certain times).

ESO is now rewarding being a ranged magicka build and running away to pew pew at your opponent from afar, rather than rewarding those who stay and fight head-on.

Your insight on other classes and ur comparisons are tragic to say the least. Your bias is all over the place. You are comparing apples with oranges, u are adding other skills and passives into the comparison to make frags and spectral bow look stronger and power lash weaker. You are comparing lash, frag, spectral bow. Not lash, frag + passives, spectral bow + other skills.

Spectral bow needs 5 light attacks to proc so it basically has a longer cooldown than power lash. The skill is beyond clunky, the projectile very slow, dodgeable, reflectable, you can easily predict when its coming, no cc or heal or resources attached to it and has a cost. You have to use it in a combo.

Frag again does not heal you. That is a passive which is completely irrelevant. But since you mentioned that passive let me tell you what it does. Its 8% of ur hp. That means 4% of ur hp in cyro. That means less than 1k heal. That is one of the most useless passives considering the only way you proc it is with frag and mines. It doesnt even worth the 2 skill points you put into it. Power lash on the other hand has a breath of life attached to it. Not from a passive.

Frags most certainly have visual cues. They last 6-7 seconds, you always know when they are ready since sorc hands glow with crystals around them and even if u cant see that you can ALWAYS predict when they are coming. Sorcs have the most predictable burst in the game. Frags will come with curse. And im not even going to get into addons like Miats that basically tells you about incoming frags without even having the sorc in ur screen. If you cant predict their burst you are doing something very very wrong. They have no sustained dmg. Frags are harmless without a combo. They also have no CC attached to it, they are slow, reflectable and dodgeable.

The point isnt which ability is better. All 3 of them have their pros and cons. The point is that both frags and spectral bow need to be used in combos otherwise they are easily countered. That doesnt make the abilities useless. Power lash gets the same treatment. Stop feeling entitled to undodgeable lashes for no reason at all and instead work with your combos.

MIATs is getting disabled, which entirely defeats one of your points, and the other points aren't even worth the energy to type a response to because it's just more line-toeing for non-DK classes in a DK balance thread.

MIAT's wasnt even a point. It was just the icing of the cake and if its actually getting disabled and not just the cast time notifications then good riddance. Will finally be free of potatoes with eyes behind their back.

As far as the other points are concerned you wont answer them because there is really nothing you can say. Those are facts and not stupid biased statements like talons is bad for your class. Lmao. If its so bad feel free to give it to templars. Im sure they'd love it. Feel free to join the other thread too with the other biased guy who believes spectral bow hits for 30k.

PS. The bolded parts really made me lol. So according to you a ranged class should be punished for being able to stay at range. And melee classes should be rewarded for not being able to keep their opponents in melee.

And range is favoured in this game and they never have to go in melee. In a game where everyone and their mother has roots snares and spammable gap closers range is in favour. Wasnt you the one who were complaining about snares and roots? Now range is in favour?

And they dont have to go in melee. You do realise that magblades literally have to go in melee range to use their fear-ult-spectral bow combo right? Do you even think before you post?

Do you think at all?

LA > Swallow Soul > LA > Crippling Grasp > LA > Shooting Star > LA > Prolonged Suffering to drop block > Assassin's Will > Impale

There's freedom in that rotation as well, because you can add another Swallow Soul before Impale if you're confident in your weaving.

You can skip weaving the light attacks and just have the Assassin's Will built up already but if you're good at weaving, there's no reason not to do it even if you have the proc already, since they do nice chip damage. And guess what, you can use Shade or Cloak away to escape if you fail to kill your target.

MagDK has to get close before even being able to drop enemy block and once they get close, they're pretty much stuck there without spamming Elusive Mist and even that can fall through if the enemy has any form of snares.

you do realize that prolonged suffering no longer exists....

This entire thread is prolonged suffering.

pieratsos

FlamingBeard wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

susniand wrote: »

Let me say that Im reading these forums, along with Reddit, on daily basis and until now I didnt feel the need to post anything here.

I read all 13 pages over last two days and suddenly have urge to post something, so I went and requested forum invite via support and registered - the reason is DDuke and his attidute.
He made first and only mdk build, not that original not great on the first place, and suddenly hes acting like Mr. Knowitall, arguing with everyone with diferent oppinion from himself. Is it clear that he has his personal agenda of somekind, against magicka dragonknight proffesion. The number of posts in this and every other thread involving magicka dragonknight in unbelievable, but the thing is, all posts are exacly the same.

When you are talking/writing, you are only repeating what you already know, try listening others and learn something new.

But lets get back on topic; mDK, power leash cooldown, combos.
What everyone forget is Shattering Rocks morph. Let me explain:

Power Lash ability was designed to not have cooldown nor be dodgeable. Why?
Cooldown:
Shattering rocks is designed to set enemies in 8m radius offbalance with 50% chance rate, so you can get more Power lashes, therefore more heals. With 3s cooldown, Shattering rocks doesnt serve its purpose.
Dodgeable:
Power lash can be used only on offblance enemies, therefore its 3rd ability in a chain, witch means target knows it comming 3 seconds beforehand. It musn't get dodgeable since Flame lash is dodgeable and if you evade it, you ruin attackers combo and not get offbalanced on the first place.

Well thats my peronal opinion, I voiced it, so should everyone else, except DDuke as he read his too many times already.

Well, thing is I'm actually testing these changes on PTS (limited to dueling, unfortunately) & I'm not noticing any negative, unnecessary effects from these changes in 1v1 situations - quite the contrary. That is not an "opinion", that is a fact based on performance.


How mDK will perform in open world after these changes, who knows - but as a pretty experienced theorycrafter (on all classes) with pretty good idea of every class & game mechanic, I'd say it'll do fine. We'll see.

Nobody here can QQ about mDK getting nerfed, because they haven't tested it in open world yet.


I don't think anyone who has tested it extensively on PTS can claim it's getting nerfed in duels either.

There is zero factual basis for that claim - so far the changes have made my mDK stronger all around vs builds I'd struggle against before.


So if you have a problem with my attitude, take it to pms. I'm one of the few people actually testing & theorycrafting things and not just QQing.


P.S. Nobody uses Shattering Rocks, that morph needs massive buffing/revamp (maybe it could even get its 15m range back since it has no root attached). Other DK skills/morphs that could use buffs (see, I do have an agenda: a better game): Hardened Armor, Reflective Plate, Deep Breath, Igneous Weapons, Obsidian Shield (both morphs), Ash Cloud (both morphs).

P.P.S. I'll still gladly prove to anyone why this Power Lash change was necessary (on Live) & why mDK still works more than fine on PTS. I'm available for PTS (and Live) duels/testing at all times.

The only way to make Power Lash powerful on Live is to build for it (forsaking a Restoration Staff for a Lightning Staff to apply Off-Balance with Blockade) which means MagDK is the ONLY class that has to use a specific build type to make their class-based proc skill more viable.

This also means MagDK is the only class with a skill proc which has to sacrifice drastic amounts of survivability to do so.

For the other proc skill-toting classes, all you need to do is weave in some light and heavy attacks (which is normal for Magblades anyway) or literally just use your usual normal abilities until you get the proc every few seconds (Sorcerer).

---

What truly needs to happen to block-dropping hard CCs is that more ranged and mobile classes need to receive shorter ranges for these types of stuns since they can get in and get out of close range as needed, and MagDK needs the longer range block-dropper CC because it has to catch up to its enemies (even with your silly bugged Chains, you won't be staying on a legitimately mobile build's tail for long without running out of magicka).

You SHOULD be punished offensively for running away which is not currently the case for Sorcerer which has a lot of time-delayed burst damage from range including a passive execute and semi-passive skill-based execute.

It's not fair to melee classes which have to work harder to maintain pressure when ranged builds of other classes can do just as well from range and without putting themselves in as much danger.

---

pieratsos wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Quantum_V wrote: »

So from testing in PTS:

magDK is not bad - lets get that out of the way.

BUT

mDK feels clunky, doesn't feel smooth at all, double powerlashing is a mechanic that you rarely see specially when your opponent (specially magsorcs) realize that if they dodge the first powerlash they're good. mDK playstyle was changed significantly and it was just a matter of time until the stamplars and stamblades I was fighting to realize that dodging backwards or dodging and then immediately blocking was an effective way to quickly shutdown mDKs offensive windows.

There is no magicka sorc in the universe that can sustain dodging & CC breaking every 7s, especially now that Immovable potions are nerfed. If you find that a sorc has the impulse to dodge Fossilize->FL->PL, then what you can do is hold that PL for a second, cast embers , chains, rebuff/whatever & watch that sorc spend 1/4th of his stamina bar dodge rolling for nothing.

It's about outplaying your opponent now rather than having guaranteed damage, and the exact same goes for stamina builds as well.

I'm still missing lots of PLs as well on PTS (around 50% of them) vs stamina builds, but it's all about adjusting, getting the Fossilize->FL->PL rotation out of your muscle memory & replacing it with something else. Stam build CC breaks, rolls backwards?

You leap (lands before dodge roll animation ends)->LA+PL & if they're still alive they're at 20-30% health, low stam and about to die to your next Fossilize if they've no Rally built up.

Treat PL more as a proc and less as some guaranteed burst. Just like Assassin's Will, Frags etc, land them when you know (or are very certain atleast) you can land them.

Takes some practice, but that's a good thing.

Melee-ranged abilities should be more rewarding to use than ranged abilities, hands down.

Nightblades get resources back just for doing light attacks during Grim Focus, and Sorcerers get health back for firing off their Dark Magic abilities which Crystal Fragments is.

It's also A LOT easier to tell when a magDK has a Power Lash ready because the whole process is telegraphed right in your face with their stun or immobilize.

You can't use visual effects of Crystal Fragments to predict the Sorcerer firing it because they can hold it for a while and have no cooldown on getting another proc right after if rng is on their side. The same thing applies to Assassin's Will; you can't keep a constant count of how many light and heavy attacks someone has fired off throughout a fight, so there's no way to predict when they'll fire it.

For Power Lash, you only get it if you hit someone from melee-range with Flame Lash first while they're also immobilized or CC'd. Those CCs or immobilizations TELL them you're definitely going to be attempting a Power Lash, and dodge the first one, and simply stay away from you or stun you to prevent the second Power Lash.

On PTS, it's now much easier to predict and evade Power Lash (a very limited proc now with a cooldown and stuck at melee range) from hitting you than it is to predict and dodge Assassin's Will or Crystal Fragments (two ranged procs which give you more freedom of movement and freedom of choice to use them at certain times).

ESO is now rewarding being a ranged magicka build and running away to pew pew at your opponent from afar, rather than rewarding those who stay and fight head-on.

Your insight on other classes and ur comparisons are tragic to say the least. Your bias is all over the place. You are comparing apples with oranges, u are adding other skills and passives into the comparison to make frags and spectral bow look stronger and power lash weaker. You are comparing lash, frag, spectral bow. Not lash, frag + passives, spectral bow + other skills.

Spectral bow needs 5 light attacks to proc so it basically has a longer cooldown than power lash. The skill is beyond clunky, the projectile very slow, dodgeable, reflectable, you can easily predict when its coming, no cc or heal or resources attached to it and has a cost. You have to use it in a combo.

Frag again does not heal you. That is a passive which is completely irrelevant. But since you mentioned that passive let me tell you what it does. Its 8% of ur hp. That means 4% of ur hp in cyro. That means less than 1k heal. That is one of the most useless passives considering the only way you proc it is with frag and mines. It doesnt even worth the 2 skill points you put into it. Power lash on the other hand has a breath of life attached to it. Not from a passive.

Frags most certainly have visual cues. They last 6-7 seconds, you always know when they are ready since sorc hands glow with crystals around them and even if u cant see that you can ALWAYS predict when they are coming. Sorcs have the most predictable burst in the game. Frags will come with curse. And im not even going to get into addons like Miats that basically tells you about incoming frags without even having the sorc in ur screen. If you cant predict their burst you are doing something very very wrong. They have no sustained dmg. Frags are harmless without a combo. They also have no CC attached to it, they are slow, reflectable and dodgeable.

The point isnt which ability is better. All 3 of them have their pros and cons. The point is that both frags and spectral bow need to be used in combos otherwise they are easily countered. That doesnt make the abilities useless. Power lash gets the same treatment. Stop feeling entitled to undodgeable lashes for no reason at all and instead work with your combos.

MIATs is getting disabled, which entirely defeats one of your points, and the other points aren't even worth the energy to type a response to because it's just more line-toeing for non-DK classes in a DK balance thread.

MIAT's wasnt even a point. It was just the icing of the cake and if its actually getting disabled and not just the cast time notifications then good riddance. Will finally be free of potatoes with eyes behind their back.

As far as the other points are concerned you wont answer them because there is really nothing you can say. Those are facts and not stupid biased statements like talons is bad for your class. Lmao. If its so bad feel free to give it to templars. Im sure they'd love it. Feel free to join the other thread too with the other biased guy who believes spectral bow hits for 30k.

PS. The bolded parts really made me lol. So according to you a ranged class should be punished for being able to stay at range. And melee classes should be rewarded for not being able to keep their opponents in melee.

And range is favoured in this game and they never have to go in melee. In a game where everyone and their mother has roots snares and spammable gap closers range is in favour. Wasnt you the one who were complaining about snares and roots? Now range is in favour?

And they dont have to go in melee. You do realise that magblades literally have to go in melee range to use their fear-ult-spectral bow combo right? Do you even think before you post?

Do you think at all?

LA > Swallow Soul > LA > Crippling Grasp > LA > Shooting Star > LA > Prolonged Suffering to drop block > Assassin's Will > Impale

There's freedom in that rotation as well, because you can add another Swallow Soul before Impale if you're confident in your weaving.

You can skip weaving the light attacks and just have the Assassin's Will built up already but if you're good at weaving, there's no reason not to do it even if you have the proc already, since they do nice chip damage. And guess what, you can use Shade or Cloak away to escape if you fail to kill your target.

MagDK has to get close before even being able to drop enemy block and once they get close, they're pretty much stuck there without spamming Elusive Mist and even that can fall through if the enemy has any form of snares.

Prolonged suffering? And you are asking me if i think? Lmao. Did you actually just say that? There is an old saying it goes like this. Better keep ur mouth and let them think you are stupid than to open it and prove them right. Prolonged suffering literally changed months ago. Do you even play the game at all? At this point you are just embarrassing urself.

FlamingBeard

pieratsos wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

susniand wrote: »

Let me say that Im reading these forums, along with Reddit, on daily basis and until now I didnt feel the need to post anything here.

I read all 13 pages over last two days and suddenly have urge to post something, so I went and requested forum invite via support and registered - the reason is DDuke and his attidute.
He made first and only mdk build, not that original not great on the first place, and suddenly hes acting like Mr. Knowitall, arguing with everyone with diferent oppinion from himself. Is it clear that he has his personal agenda of somekind, against magicka dragonknight proffesion. The number of posts in this and every other thread involving magicka dragonknight in unbelievable, but the thing is, all posts are exacly the same.

When you are talking/writing, you are only repeating what you already know, try listening others and learn something new.

But lets get back on topic; mDK, power leash cooldown, combos.
What everyone forget is Shattering Rocks morph. Let me explain:

Power Lash ability was designed to not have cooldown nor be dodgeable. Why?
Cooldown:
Shattering rocks is designed to set enemies in 8m radius offbalance with 50% chance rate, so you can get more Power lashes, therefore more heals. With 3s cooldown, Shattering rocks doesnt serve its purpose.
Dodgeable:
Power lash can be used only on offblance enemies, therefore its 3rd ability in a chain, witch means target knows it comming 3 seconds beforehand. It musn't get dodgeable since Flame lash is dodgeable and if you evade it, you ruin attackers combo and not get offbalanced on the first place.

Well thats my peronal opinion, I voiced it, so should everyone else, except DDuke as he read his too many times already.

Well, thing is I'm actually testing these changes on PTS (limited to dueling, unfortunately) & I'm not noticing any negative, unnecessary effects from these changes in 1v1 situations - quite the contrary. That is not an "opinion", that is a fact based on performance.


How mDK will perform in open world after these changes, who knows - but as a pretty experienced theorycrafter (on all classes) with pretty good idea of every class & game mechanic, I'd say it'll do fine. We'll see.

Nobody here can QQ about mDK getting nerfed, because they haven't tested it in open world yet.


I don't think anyone who has tested it extensively on PTS can claim it's getting nerfed in duels either.

There is zero factual basis for that claim - so far the changes have made my mDK stronger all around vs builds I'd struggle against before.


So if you have a problem with my attitude, take it to pms. I'm one of the few people actually testing & theorycrafting things and not just QQing.


P.S. Nobody uses Shattering Rocks, that morph needs massive buffing/revamp (maybe it could even get its 15m range back since it has no root attached). Other DK skills/morphs that could use buffs (see, I do have an agenda: a better game): Hardened Armor, Reflective Plate, Deep Breath, Igneous Weapons, Obsidian Shield (both morphs), Ash Cloud (both morphs).

P.P.S. I'll still gladly prove to anyone why this Power Lash change was necessary (on Live) & why mDK still works more than fine on PTS. I'm available for PTS (and Live) duels/testing at all times.

The only way to make Power Lash powerful on Live is to build for it (forsaking a Restoration Staff for a Lightning Staff to apply Off-Balance with Blockade) which means MagDK is the ONLY class that has to use a specific build type to make their class-based proc skill more viable.

This also means MagDK is the only class with a skill proc which has to sacrifice drastic amounts of survivability to do so.

For the other proc skill-toting classes, all you need to do is weave in some light and heavy attacks (which is normal for Magblades anyway) or literally just use your usual normal abilities until you get the proc every few seconds (Sorcerer).

---

What truly needs to happen to block-dropping hard CCs is that more ranged and mobile classes need to receive shorter ranges for these types of stuns since they can get in and get out of close range as needed, and MagDK needs the longer range block-dropper CC because it has to catch up to its enemies (even with your silly bugged Chains, you won't be staying on a legitimately mobile build's tail for long without running out of magicka).

You SHOULD be punished offensively for running away which is not currently the case for Sorcerer which has a lot of time-delayed burst damage from range including a passive execute and semi-passive skill-based execute.

It's not fair to melee classes which have to work harder to maintain pressure when ranged builds of other classes can do just as well from range and without putting themselves in as much danger.

---

pieratsos wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Quantum_V wrote: »

So from testing in PTS:

magDK is not bad - lets get that out of the way.

BUT

mDK feels clunky, doesn't feel smooth at all, double powerlashing is a mechanic that you rarely see specially when your opponent (specially magsorcs) realize that if they dodge the first powerlash they're good. mDK playstyle was changed significantly and it was just a matter of time until the stamplars and stamblades I was fighting to realize that dodging backwards or dodging and then immediately blocking was an effective way to quickly shutdown mDKs offensive windows.

There is no magicka sorc in the universe that can sustain dodging & CC breaking every 7s, especially now that Immovable potions are nerfed. If you find that a sorc has the impulse to dodge Fossilize->FL->PL, then what you can do is hold that PL for a second, cast embers , chains, rebuff/whatever & watch that sorc spend 1/4th of his stamina bar dodge rolling for nothing.

It's about outplaying your opponent now rather than having guaranteed damage, and the exact same goes for stamina builds as well.

I'm still missing lots of PLs as well on PTS (around 50% of them) vs stamina builds, but it's all about adjusting, getting the Fossilize->FL->PL rotation out of your muscle memory & replacing it with something else. Stam build CC breaks, rolls backwards?

You leap (lands before dodge roll animation ends)->LA+PL & if they're still alive they're at 20-30% health, low stam and about to die to your next Fossilize if they've no Rally built up.

Treat PL more as a proc and less as some guaranteed burst. Just like Assassin's Will, Frags etc, land them when you know (or are very certain atleast) you can land them.

Takes some practice, but that's a good thing.

Melee-ranged abilities should be more rewarding to use than ranged abilities, hands down.

Nightblades get resources back just for doing light attacks during Grim Focus, and Sorcerers get health back for firing off their Dark Magic abilities which Crystal Fragments is.

It's also A LOT easier to tell when a magDK has a Power Lash ready because the whole process is telegraphed right in your face with their stun or immobilize.

You can't use visual effects of Crystal Fragments to predict the Sorcerer firing it because they can hold it for a while and have no cooldown on getting another proc right after if rng is on their side. The same thing applies to Assassin's Will; you can't keep a constant count of how many light and heavy attacks someone has fired off throughout a fight, so there's no way to predict when they'll fire it.

For Power Lash, you only get it if you hit someone from melee-range with Flame Lash first while they're also immobilized or CC'd. Those CCs or immobilizations TELL them you're definitely going to be attempting a Power Lash, and dodge the first one, and simply stay away from you or stun you to prevent the second Power Lash.

On PTS, it's now much easier to predict and evade Power Lash (a very limited proc now with a cooldown and stuck at melee range) from hitting you than it is to predict and dodge Assassin's Will or Crystal Fragments (two ranged procs which give you more freedom of movement and freedom of choice to use them at certain times).

ESO is now rewarding being a ranged magicka build and running away to pew pew at your opponent from afar, rather than rewarding those who stay and fight head-on.

Your insight on other classes and ur comparisons are tragic to say the least. Your bias is all over the place. You are comparing apples with oranges, u are adding other skills and passives into the comparison to make frags and spectral bow look stronger and power lash weaker. You are comparing lash, frag, spectral bow. Not lash, frag + passives, spectral bow + other skills.

Spectral bow needs 5 light attacks to proc so it basically has a longer cooldown than power lash. The skill is beyond clunky, the projectile very slow, dodgeable, reflectable, you can easily predict when its coming, no cc or heal or resources attached to it and has a cost. You have to use it in a combo.

Frag again does not heal you. That is a passive which is completely irrelevant. But since you mentioned that passive let me tell you what it does. Its 8% of ur hp. That means 4% of ur hp in cyro. That means less than 1k heal. That is one of the most useless passives considering the only way you proc it is with frag and mines. It doesnt even worth the 2 skill points you put into it. Power lash on the other hand has a breath of life attached to it. Not from a passive.

Frags most certainly have visual cues. They last 6-7 seconds, you always know when they are ready since sorc hands glow with crystals around them and even if u cant see that you can ALWAYS predict when they are coming. Sorcs have the most predictable burst in the game. Frags will come with curse. And im not even going to get into addons like Miats that basically tells you about incoming frags without even having the sorc in ur screen. If you cant predict their burst you are doing something very very wrong. They have no sustained dmg. Frags are harmless without a combo. They also have no CC attached to it, they are slow, reflectable and dodgeable.

The point isnt which ability is better. All 3 of them have their pros and cons. The point is that both frags and spectral bow need to be used in combos otherwise they are easily countered. That doesnt make the abilities useless. Power lash gets the same treatment. Stop feeling entitled to undodgeable lashes for no reason at all and instead work with your combos.

MIATs is getting disabled, which entirely defeats one of your points, and the other points aren't even worth the energy to type a response to because it's just more line-toeing for non-DK classes in a DK balance thread.

MIAT's wasnt even a point. It was just the icing of the cake and if its actually getting disabled and not just the cast time notifications then good riddance. Will finally be free of potatoes with eyes behind their back.

As far as the other points are concerned you wont answer them because there is really nothing you can say. Those are facts and not stupid biased statements like talons is bad for your class. Lmao. If its so bad feel free to give it to templars. Im sure they'd love it. Feel free to join the other thread too with the other biased guy who believes spectral bow hits for 30k.

PS. The bolded parts really made me lol. So according to you a ranged class should be punished for being able to stay at range. And melee classes should be rewarded for not being able to keep their opponents in melee.

And range is favoured in this game and they never have to go in melee. In a game where everyone and their mother has roots snares and spammable gap closers range is in favour. Wasnt you the one who were complaining about snares and roots? Now range is in favour?

And they dont have to go in melee. You do realise that magblades literally have to go in melee range to use their fear-ult-spectral bow combo right? Do you even think before you post?

Do you think at all?

LA > Swallow Soul > LA > Crippling Grasp > LA > Shooting Star > LA > Prolonged Suffering to drop block > Assassin's Will > Impale

There's freedom in that rotation as well, because you can add another Swallow Soul before Impale if you're confident in your weaving.

You can skip weaving the light attacks and just have the Assassin's Will built up already but if you're good at weaving, there's no reason not to do it even if you have the proc already, since they do nice chip damage. And guess what, you can use Shade or Cloak away to escape if you fail to kill your target.

MagDK has to get close before even being able to drop enemy block and once they get close, they're pretty much stuck there without spamming Elusive Mist and even that can fall through if the enemy has any form of snares.

Prolonged suffering? And you are asking me if i think? Lmao. Did you actually just say that? There is an old saying it goes like this. Better keep ur mouth and let them think you are stupid than to open it and prove them right. Prolonged suffering literally changed some months ago. Its a heal that drains ur health now. Not a cc. When was the last time that you logged into the game? Morrowind? Do you even play the game at all? At this point you are just embarrassing urself.

Lmao I haven't looked at my magblade's tooltips in some time except for slotting PvE skills so forgive me for that error.

It still stands that you can do the same rotation except with a Lotus Fan > Fear > Impale and use Shade or Cloak to retreat if necessary.

You can try as hard as you want to say Magblade is weak but it is one of the strongest setups for nearly guaranteed 1v1 kills in Cyrodiil and Battlegrounds unless you're against a heavy armor Troll King Warden which nearly no class can kill easily.