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[PvP] mDK changes in 3.3.2
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pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭And can we get rid of the *** argument that they doubled the heal on powerlash.
THAT IS A BUG AND IS NOT INTENDED
That is obvious as it wasn't stated in the patch notes. Whoever is trying to use this argument is just out of any reasonable proposals and justification towards the unnecessary powerlash nerf and is resorting to GLITCHES to prove their point. That's not cool.
Powerlash being undodgeable was also a bug and not intended. You are the one using the mDK being weak argument to justify bad mechanics and bugs just to prove ur point. Thats also not cool.5 -
FlamingBeard✭✭✭✭✭
Then it's sad that ZOS' bugs are more balanced than their own code
If you don't want to be Power Lashed, use a ranged build or one of the dozens of immovability potion Major Expedition medium armor builds out there and bide time to burst the Dragonknight.
Nightblade in medium armor can easily drop a Dragonknight's block by fearing and follow up with the easy-peasy Incap rotation that you can kill nearly any light armor user with except maybe a petSorc.
Flame Lash itself was already dodgeable and was already a basis for counters and allowed you to immediately predict a coming Power Lash and follow up with a defensive or offensive counterplay. Power Lash proc being dodgeable just gives spoiled medium builds who never want to be touched as they spam two hander abilities even more leg room than they deserve. lol1 -
ThulsaDoomDC✭✭✭I'm just a PvP guy, so without PvE in mind this is all I have to say;
If mag wardens get undodgeable birds with no counterplay AT ALL to them, then why is an undodgeable power lash an issue?XBOX NA - mDK CP 488
Better Dead Than Red8 -
Kilandros✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭usmcjdking wrote: »The issues with power lash were issues with off balance.
And instead of making off balance less stupid, they nerf powerlash - one of the few abilities that have any special interactions with off balance.
There is nothing they can do to 'fix' power lash because power lash isn't what's even broken here.
This x10000000000Invictus
Kilandros - Dragonknight / Grand Overlord
Deimos - Templar / Grand Warlord
Sias - Sorcerer / PrefectZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Short answer is DKs likely won't be seeing a ton of changes before we go live; this class is still quite powerful (as it should be being a tank), even after some of the adjustments we've made to other classes and abilities.
DK IS NOT JUST A TANK CLASS. #PLAYTHEWAYYOUWANT5 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ThulsaDoomDC wrote: »I'm just a PvP guy, so without PvE in mind this is all I have to say;
If mag wardens get undodgeable birds with no counterplay AT ALL to them, then why is an undodgeable power lash an issue?
Cliff Racer is undodgeable because of the not very well designed animation. It simply wouldn’t hit at all if you could dodge it. It’s a different story with a close range ability like Lash. The sheer amount of things you can’t dodge anymore is not good for the game.Edited by Feanor on 25 January 2018 14:16Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 50 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭ThulsaDoomDC wrote: »I'm just a PvP guy, so without PvE in mind this is all I have to say;
If mag wardens get undodgeable birds with no counterplay AT ALL to them, then why is an undodgeable power lash an issue?
From my stamblade perspective:- Easily cloaked, magicka Wardens have very few cloak breaker abilities.
- They still deal far less unavoidable damage than mDKs. Warden undodgeable skills: birds, shalks (avoidable though if you outplay them), Swarm, Northern Storm (slow dmg & also avoidable if you outplay them).
- Warden has no gap closer to prevent kiting.
- Birds deal around 10-20% less damage than Power Lash and have a long travel time, which means getting "bursted" by them isn't really something that just happens.
Thanks to cloak, they're only really a big issue for non-NB dodge roll builds and luckily the only unavoidable burst Warden has.
That's just how I've perceived them so far, it's entirely possible there's some Warden build I haven't thought of that can get guaranteed kills on dodge rollers, I just don't see how without a gap closer (yes, I know birds are ranged but you also need to land other things to outdamage Troll King, Vigor & Rally spam).Edited by DDuke on 25 January 2018 14:260 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭FlamingBeard wrote: »
Then it's sad that ZOS' bugs are more balanced than their own code
If you don't want to be Power Lashed, use a ranged build or one of the dozens of immovability potion Major Expedition medium armor builds out there and bide time to burst the Dragonknight.
Nightblade in medium armor can easily drop a Dragonknight's block by fearing and follow up with the easy-peasy Incap rotation that you can kill nearly any light armor user with except maybe a petSorc.
Flame Lash itself was already dodgeable and was already a basis for counters and allowed you to immediately predict a coming Power Lash and follow up with a defensive or offensive counterplay. Power Lash proc being dodgeable just gives spoiled medium builds who never want to be touched as they spam two hander abilities even more leg room than they deserve. lol
If a NB fears and follow up with incap then u can cc them and follow up with power lash. If other classes have to take their time to burst you down then you have to take your time to take them down. You cant have it both ways.
You dont get to ask for people to play skillfully to outplay their opponents but at the same time want ur class to have one trick pony abilites ignoring base game mechanics for no reason at all and call it balanced.2 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ThulsaDoomDC wrote: »I'm just a PvP guy, so without PvE in mind this is all I have to say;
If mag wardens get undodgeable birds with no counterplay AT ALL to them, then why is an undodgeable power lash an issue?
So you are saying instead of fixing the bad things lets just make everything bad to have balance. What a wonderful logic. And then we are wondering why PVP is so.....2 -
Malthorne✭✭✭✭✭
✭And can we get rid of the *** argument that they doubled the heal on powerlash.
THAT IS A BUG AND IS NOT INTENDED
That is obvious as it wasn't stated in the patch notes. Whoever is trying to use this argument is just out of any reasonable proposals and justification towards the unnecessary powerlash nerf and is resorting to GLITCHES to prove their point. That's not cool.
Powerlash being undodgeable was also a bug and not intended. You are the one using the mDK being weak argument to justify bad mechanics and bugs just to prove ur point. Thats also not cool.
A “bug” that has been around since beta versus a bug just introduced this PTS cycle. Powerlash has worked this way for 4 years. If it was a bug it should have been fixed a long time ago or at the very least mentioned somewhere as an ability not working as intended.Edited by Malthorne on 25 January 2018 14:291 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭And can we get rid of the *** argument that they doubled the heal on powerlash.
THAT IS A BUG AND IS NOT INTENDED
That is obvious as it wasn't stated in the patch notes. Whoever is trying to use this argument is just out of any reasonable proposals and justification towards the unnecessary powerlash nerf and is resorting to GLITCHES to prove their point. That's not cool.
Powerlash being undodgeable was also a bug and not intended. You are the one using the mDK being weak argument to justify bad mechanics and bugs just to prove ur point. Thats also not cool.
A “bug” that has been around since beta versus a bug just introduced this PTS cycle. Powerlash has worked this way for 4 years. If it was a bug it should have been fixed a long time ago or at the very least mentioned somewhere as an ability not working as interested.
When the combat changed soul harvest and power lash were left out and they remained undodgeable like before. They were both addressed this patch. Thats not a coincidence. Ironically those changes came shortly after gilliam mentioned them in his videos. But just because it took them so long it doesnt mean that they were no longer bugged. Thats like saying a criminal is no longer a criminal if he doesnt get arrested immediately after the crime. That doesnt even make sense.
If you have a specific issue with certain abilities then feel free to ask for nerfs or buffs. However, abilities ignoring basic rules that were designed to keep those types of abilities in check is not the way to buff abilities and its certainly not balanced. And just because birds are also undodgeable, its still not a reason to let more abilities perform this way too. Otherwise sorcs would come and ask for their frags to be undodgeable and then NBs ask for their spectral bows and swallow souls to be undodgeable. Does that sound good to you?
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Quantum_VClass Representative
You might wanna consider practicing reading comprehension skills before puking the forums with reductio ad absurdum logical argumentative fallacies.Please understand I'm not here asking for mDKs buffs, I said it before and I'll say it again, mDKs are an exceptional class.And honestly, mDKs need no further buffs apart from maybe reworking banner as an ult.
I made an entire forum post talking about on how powerlash changes 3.3.0 should be reverted back as it was way to strong and a clear overbuff to mDKs.
Here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/389237/pvp-mdk-changes/p1
I've asked for mDK changes inumerous times before - being it for nerfs or buffs. Making such an ill, unfounded, bottomless and unjustifiable comment only proves that you're illiterate on the topic and misjudging of my persona. Do not jump to conclusions like that.
I come to the forums simply to present my opinion on what - through my scope of reality - could be fair and balanced changes. You've got all the right to disagree, you just don't have the right to claim that I'm using 'the mDK being weak argument to justify bad mechanics and bugs to prove ur point'. Specially when bugs (like powerlash healing for twice as much in pts) were used as arguments from people that mostly differ from my points. As I have never said a single time mDK is weak, on the contrary I think mDKs are exceptional in this game. BUT as I said before, we aren't in a position to take any nerfs and having undodgeable whips is a core mechanic on what makes mDK a fluid and a mechanically elaborate class.Edited by Quantum_V on 25 January 2018 15:103 -
Malthorne✭✭✭✭✭
✭And can we get rid of the *** argument that they doubled the heal on powerlash.
THAT IS A BUG AND IS NOT INTENDED
That is obvious as it wasn't stated in the patch notes. Whoever is trying to use this argument is just out of any reasonable proposals and justification towards the unnecessary powerlash nerf and is resorting to GLITCHES to prove their point. That's not cool.
Powerlash being undodgeable was also a bug and not intended. You are the one using the mDK being weak argument to justify bad mechanics and bugs just to prove ur point. Thats also not cool.
A “bug” that has been around since beta versus a bug just introduced this PTS cycle. Powerlash has worked this way for 4 years. If it was a bug it should have been fixed a long time ago or at the very least mentioned somewhere as an ability not working as interested.
When the combat changed soul harvest and power lash were left out and they remained undodgeable like before. They were both addressed this patch. Thats not a coincidence. Ironically those changes came shortly after gilliam mentioned them in his videos. But just because it took them so long it doesnt mean that they were no longer bugged. Thats like saying a criminal is no longer a criminal if he doesnt get arrested immediately after the crime. That doesnt even make sense.
If you have a specific issue with certain abilities then feel free to ask for nerfs or buffs. However, abilities ignoring basic rules that were designed to keep those types of abilities in check is not the way to buff abilities and its certainly not balanced. And just because birds are also undodgeable, its still not a reason to let more abilities perform this way too. Otherwise sorcs would come and ask for their frags to be undodgeable and then NBs ask for their spectral bows and swallow souls to be undodgeable. Does that sound good to you?
You are all over the place and making false assumptions. This is a DK thread and has nothing to do with Wardens, NBs, Sorcs etc4 -
CaliMade✭✭✭✭I just want to know why all of a sudden powerlash is being made into this god level medium armor build killer thats has gone unchecked and unchallenged for years. Making is way across cyrodiil destroying every stambuild mercilessly with its instant cast, being spammed to ruin the lives of anyone who dare wear medium armor.
I asked before but i guess my comment got caught up in the ether. Why was nobody asking for powerlash nerfs before hand? and if they were then link the threads. Please. If you cant find any then stop trying to destroy this skill so you can have one more thing you can mindlessly avoid.
This is not surprise attack or flame lash or force pulse or swallow soul or and of the many instant cast single target abilities. Power lash, due to the telegraphed nature of its proc, by all means has a 2 second cast time. How any of you tried landing a Dizzy Swing in lag??? Thats how its gonna be trya hit these rolley-poleys.
If you want more counterplay than what already exsists please make a logical argument. Power lash cant be dodged on live, this patch drops and it will always be dodged. Thats a 0-100 change thats not healthy for the game. If powerlash must be dodgeable to fufill your no impen wearing fatasies then make it proc off the actual CC, not the follow-up flame lash.
XB1 GT- Cali Made
Praetorian Stam DK Redguard
Brigadier Stam/magblade (whatever i feel like running) Redguard
Major Mag DK Dark Elf
lieutenant Mag/stamplar (whatever i feel like running) Redguard8 -
Ragnaroek93✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I just want to know why all of a sudden powerlash is being made into this god level medium armor build killer thats has gone unchecked and unchallenged for years. Making is way across cyrodiil destroying every stambuild mercilessly with its instant cast, being spammed to ruin the lives of anyone who dare wear medium armor.
I asked before but i guess my comment got caught up in the ether. Why was nobody asking for powerlash nerfs before hand? and if they were then link the threads. Please. If you cant find any then stop trying to destroy this skill so you can have one more thing you can mindlessly avoid.
This is not surprise attack or flame lash or force pulse or swallow soul or and of the many instant cast single target abilities. Power lash, due to the telegraphed nature of its proc, by all means has a 2 second cast time. How any of you tried landing a Dizzy Swing in lag??? Thats how its gonna be trya hit these rolley-poleys.
If you want more counterplay than what already exsists please make a logical argument. Power lash cant be dodged on live, this patch drops and it will always be dodged. Thats a 0-100 change thats not healthy for the game. If powerlash must be dodgeable to fufill your no impen wearing fatasies then make it proc off the actual CC, not the follow-up flame lash.
Medium armor players are asking for stuff to be dodgeable again for years now...I used to think that PvP was a tragedy, but now I realize, it's a comedy.1 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
You might wanna consider practicing reading comprehension skills before puking the forums with reductio ad absurdum logical argumentative fallacies.Please understand I'm not here asking for mDKs buffs, I said it before and I'll say it again, mDKs are an exceptional class.And honestly, mDKs need no further buffs apart from maybe reworking banner as an ult.
I made an entire forum post talking about on how powerlash changes 3.3.0 should be reverted back as it was way to strong and a clear overbuff to mDKs.
Here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/389237/pvp-mdk-changes/p1
I've asked for mDK changes inumerous times before - being it for nerfs or buffs. Making such an ill, unfounded, bottomless and unjustifiable comment only proves that you're illiterate on the topic and misjudging of my persona. Do not jump to conclusions like that.
I come to the forums simply to present my opinion on what - through my scope of reality - could be fair and balanced changes. You've got all the right to disagree, you just don't have the right to claim that I'm using 'the mDK being weak argument to justify bad mechanics and bugs to prove ur point'. Specially when bugs (like powerlash healing for twice as much in pts) were used as arguments from people that mostly differ from my points. As I have never said a single time mDK is weak, on the contrary I think mDKs are exceptional in this game. BUT as I said before, we aren't in a position to take any nerfs and having undodgeable whips is a core mechanic on what makes mDK a fluid and a mechanically elaborate class.
You are the one not reading or maybe just choosing to read whatever suits u. So dont talk to me about fallacies. This thread is filled with them. With people taking medium armor bleed stamplar builds as a standard to say that medium armor dodge roll builds are good against mDK. Or saying that power lash being dodgeable will be useless as if every dodgeable ability in the game is useless. Or saying that NBs can fear before using their incap which also happens to be dodgeable but refuse to use the same logic for mDK. Or saying that stamblades dont get to take a lot of dmg when they can dish out a lot of dmg but apparently refuse to use the same (but reversed) logic on mDK. Or saying that birds are undodgeable so lash should be undodgeable. We can go back and forth on fallacies.
And Im not gonna argue whether mDK is good or not. Thats a whole different discussion but if u ask me i dont think they are. They rely on a bunch of different stupid mechanics that have absolutely nothing to do with mDK in the first place like skoria and they give the idea that they are good but without those mechanics i highly doubt about their performance.
I just simply pointed that undodgeable lashes were also a bug. And the "DK being weak" argument is like a figure of speech. I mean the issues with DKs or whatever you want to call it. And i made that comment in response to ur comment that the double heal on lashes is a bug. It goes both ways. And imo a bug that was very well fixed. Abilities ignoring mechanics shouldnt exist. Doesnt matter how it affects a class. If someone is rolling away from DK roots then he is doing something right. Getting punished for doing something right doesnt make much sense if u ask me.
2 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭And can we get rid of the *** argument that they doubled the heal on powerlash.
THAT IS A BUG AND IS NOT INTENDED
That is obvious as it wasn't stated in the patch notes. Whoever is trying to use this argument is just out of any reasonable proposals and justification towards the unnecessary powerlash nerf and is resorting to GLITCHES to prove their point. That's not cool.
Powerlash being undodgeable was also a bug and not intended. You are the one using the mDK being weak argument to justify bad mechanics and bugs just to prove ur point. Thats also not cool.
A “bug” that has been around since beta versus a bug just introduced this PTS cycle. Powerlash has worked this way for 4 years. If it was a bug it should have been fixed a long time ago or at the very least mentioned somewhere as an ability not working as interested.
When the combat changed soul harvest and power lash were left out and they remained undodgeable like before. They were both addressed this patch. Thats not a coincidence. Ironically those changes came shortly after gilliam mentioned them in his videos. But just because it took them so long it doesnt mean that they were no longer bugged. Thats like saying a criminal is no longer a criminal if he doesnt get arrested immediately after the crime. That doesnt even make sense.
If you have a specific issue with certain abilities then feel free to ask for nerfs or buffs. However, abilities ignoring basic rules that were designed to keep those types of abilities in check is not the way to buff abilities and its certainly not balanced. And just because birds are also undodgeable, its still not a reason to let more abilities perform this way too. Otherwise sorcs would come and ask for their frags to be undodgeable and then NBs ask for their spectral bows and swallow souls to be undodgeable. Does that sound good to you?
You are all over the place and making false assumptions. This is a DK thread and has nothing to do with Wardens, NBs, Sorcs etc
But people didnt have an issue using the warden undodgeable birds argument as a reason for lash to be undodgeable.
Cherry picking only what suits you and making arguments that make zero sense in the first place and avoiding to actually answer anything. Seems to me that you are the one all over the place.
But that really doesnt change anything. It was a bug. Just because you refuse to acknowledge it as such doesnt mean it wasnt. Feel free to read the patch notes for both lash and soul harvest. It says fixed.2 -
ak_pvp✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭It was a bug.
It is now fixed. Just do the same to bird pls.
DK has many other issues. Whip isn't really a massive one. After all, it still stuns and has a more consistent high frequency. (lighting and interrupting not withstanding, but now it's 3s consistent instead of 5s+random interrupt/concuss)
Maybe they will actually increase the heal to 4s, and its a ninja change that will be reflected next patch notes. (like prison cost changes)
Actual issues:
Survivability: ZOS even said its a tank class, as pointed to via passives, it can be run other ways but less effective than other classes. Wings. Bug fixed but still pretty ***. Range hurts DK worse than others because gap closing is dodgy, slow class and chains not commonly ran, Foss is short ranged and so much isn't reflected. Tldr wings should be 3 projectiles and 4s. But be a per person count. Less duel cancer. Better in ow.
Sustain: Worst main stat sustain of all classes. Sad. Awful for PvE.
Mobility: Not needed exactly. But reliance on most is bad. Wings one morph snare removal pls.
Stamdk as a whole tbh, old 7th build was great for 1vx, but class sucks. Stamdk needs a reverse backlash. Dealing damage based on how much incoming in a certain time. Wings snare remove allows for burst heal from rally. Or even gdb change. World in ruin is literally useless atm, only one aoe poison ult which no one uses generally.
Maybe the reverse backlash could be on the ult. 10s 3% damage cap, but every hit increases the damage done at the end by 500 up to like 30k. Would be amazing and only strong vs zergs.MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
Best houseknight EU.1 -
Quantum_VClass Representative
You might wanna consider practicing reading comprehension skills before puking the forums with reductio ad absurdum logical argumentative fallacies.Please understand I'm not here asking for mDKs buffs, I said it before and I'll say it again, mDKs are an exceptional class.And honestly, mDKs need no further buffs apart from maybe reworking banner as an ult.
I made an entire forum post talking about on how powerlash changes 3.3.0 should be reverted back as it was way to strong and a clear overbuff to mDKs.
Here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/389237/pvp-mdk-changes/p1
I've asked for mDK changes inumerous times before - being it for nerfs or buffs. Making such an ill, unfounded, bottomless and unjustifiable comment only proves that you're illiterate on the topic and misjudging of my persona. Do not jump to conclusions like that.
I come to the forums simply to present my opinion on what - through my scope of reality - could be fair and balanced changes. You've got all the right to disagree, you just don't have the right to claim that I'm using 'the mDK being weak argument to justify bad mechanics and bugs to prove ur point'. Specially when bugs (like powerlash healing for twice as much in pts) were used as arguments from people that mostly differ from my points. As I have never said a single time mDK is weak, on the contrary I think mDKs are exceptional in this game. BUT as I said before, we aren't in a position to take any nerfs and having undodgeable whips is a core mechanic on what makes mDK a fluid and a mechanically elaborate class.
You are the one not reading or maybe just choosing to read whatever suits u. So dont talk to me about fallacies. This thread is filled with them. With people taking medium armor bleed stamplar builds as a standard to say that medium armor dodge roll builds are good against mDK. Or saying that power lash being dodgeable will be useless as if every dodgeable ability in the game is useless. Or saying that NBs can fear before using their incap which also happens to be dodgeable but refuse to use the same logic for mDK. Or saying that stamblades dont get to take a lot of dmg when they can dish out a lot of dmg but apparently refuse to use the same (but reversed) logic on mDK. Or saying that birds are undodgeable so lash should be undodgeable. We can go back and forth on fallacies.
And Im not gonna argue whether mDK is good or not. Thats a whole different discussion but if u ask me i dont think they are. They rely on a bunch of different stupid mechanics that have absolutely nothing to do with mDK in the first place like skoria and they give the idea that they are good but without those mechanics i highly doubt about their performance.
I just simply pointed that undodgeable lashes were also a bug. And the "DK being weak" argument is like a figure of speech. I mean the issues with DKs or whatever you want to call it. And i made that comment in response to ur comment that the double heal on lashes is a bug. It goes both ways. And imo a bug that was very well fixed. Abilities ignoring mechanics shouldnt exist. Doesnt matter how it affects a class. If someone is rolling away from DK roots then he is doing something right. Getting punished for doing something right doesnt make much sense if u ask me.With people taking medium armor bleed stamplar builds as a standard to say that medium armor dodge roll builds are good against mDK.
I'm pretty sure most of us here agreed that stamblade v magDK is an unfavorable matchup towards the the NB. Nonetheless, inumerous arguments were also presented to disprove the fallacy that it's an impossible match up, specially arguments that revolve around DoTs, mobility and incaps which are at the nbs disposal and can be used effectively by the latter. I'll repeat though, it's an unfavorable match up, that is not a reason to change mDK as a whole. It's similar to what happened with TK, people said it was too strong and instead of nerfing TK, ZOS buffed Defile to a point that it's too strong against anybody. mDK being strong against stamblades is not a good cause to change mDK's mechanics completely. I've been playing on PTS everyday and mDK feels cluncky.Or saying that power lash being dodgeable will be useless as if every dodgeable ability in the game is useless.
As mentioned countless times powerlash differs from other skills when it comes to it being undodgeable. The reason for that is simple: to proc powerlash, you need to use roots (basically) which triggers an immediate rolldodge response. In short, the proc to powerlash is the reason for its demise. Due to this fact, powerlash will have a much higher dodge rate than any other already dodgeable skill - rendering the comparison between powerlash and surprise attack or any other skill useless. Oh, and btw, powerlash is a proc, not a spammable - the spammable, flame lash is dodgeable.Or saying that stamblades dont get to take a lot of dmg when they can dish out a lot of dmg but apparently refuse to use the same (but reversed) logic on mDK.
We do use the same logic for mDKs. A light armor high-damaging mDK will be squishy. Fears correctly timed when shields are down followed by incaps is a very strong mechanic to duel a DK. It'll make up the matchup somewhat similar to sorcs (considering curse is undodgeable and has a hit rate similar to powerlash proc).Edited by Quantum_V on 25 January 2018 17:123 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Alright, more PTS discoveries being made:
You get the Power Lash heal even if damaging portion gets dodged on PTS.
...and yes, still having no problems vs dodge rollers on my mDK based on PTS duels. Meanwhile, I've started beating TK+Heavy Armor meta dueling builds on my mDK, probably mostly thanks to the extra lashes I can land on them (2 per CC instead of 1).Edited by DDuke on 25 January 2018 17:043 -
FlamingBeard✭✭✭✭✭
You might wanna consider practicing reading comprehension skills before puking the forums with reductio ad absurdum logical argumentative fallacies.Please understand I'm not here asking for mDKs buffs, I said it before and I'll say it again, mDKs are an exceptional class.And honestly, mDKs need no further buffs apart from maybe reworking banner as an ult.
I made an entire forum post talking about on how powerlash changes 3.3.0 should be reverted back as it was way to strong and a clear overbuff to mDKs.
Here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/389237/pvp-mdk-changes/p1
I've asked for mDK changes inumerous times before - being it for nerfs or buffs. Making such an ill, unfounded, bottomless and unjustifiable comment only proves that you're illiterate on the topic and misjudging of my persona. Do not jump to conclusions like that.
I come to the forums simply to present my opinion on what - through my scope of reality - could be fair and balanced changes. You've got all the right to disagree, you just don't have the right to claim that I'm using 'the mDK being weak argument to justify bad mechanics and bugs to prove ur point'. Specially when bugs (like powerlash healing for twice as much in pts) were used as arguments from people that mostly differ from my points. As I have never said a single time mDK is weak, on the contrary I think mDKs are exceptional in this game. BUT as I said before, we aren't in a position to take any nerfs and having undodgeable whips is a core mechanic on what makes mDK a fluid and a mechanically elaborate class.
You are the one not reading or maybe just choosing to read whatever suits u. So dont talk to me about fallacies. This thread is filled with them. With people taking medium armor bleed stamplar builds as a standard to say that medium armor dodge roll builds are good against mDK. Or saying that power lash being dodgeable will be useless as if every dodgeable ability in the game is useless. Or saying that NBs can fear before using their incap which also happens to be dodgeable but refuse to use the same logic for mDK. Or saying that stamblades dont get to take a lot of dmg when they can dish out a lot of dmg but apparently refuse to use the same (but reversed) logic on mDK. Or saying that birds are undodgeable so lash should be undodgeable. We can go back and forth on fallacies.
And Im not gonna argue whether mDK is good or not. Thats a whole different discussion but if u ask me i dont think they are. They rely on a bunch of different stupid mechanics that have absolutely nothing to do with mDK in the first place like skoria and they give the idea that they are good but without those mechanics i highly doubt about their performance.
I just simply pointed that undodgeable lashes were also a bug. And the "DK being weak" argument is like a figure of speech. I mean the issues with DKs or whatever you want to call it. And i made that comment in response to ur comment that the double heal on lashes is a bug. It goes both ways. And imo a bug that was very well fixed. Abilities ignoring mechanics shouldnt exist. Doesnt matter how it affects a class. If someone is rolling away from DK roots then he is doing something right. Getting punished for doing something right doesnt make much sense if u ask me.With people taking medium armor bleed stamplar builds as a standard to say that medium armor dodge roll builds are good against mDK.
I'm pretty sure most of us here agreed that stamblade v magDK is an unfavorable matchup towards the the NB. Nonetheless, inumerous arguments were also presented to disprove the fallacy that it's an impossible match up, specially arguments that revolve around DoTs, mobility and incaps which are at the nbs disposal and can be used effectively by the latter. I'll repeat though, it's an unfavorable match up, that is not a reason to change mDK as a whole. It's similar to what happened with TK, people said it was too strong and instead of nerfing TK, ZOS buffed Defile to a point that it's too strong against anybody. mDK being strong against stamblades is not a good cause to change mDK's mechanics completely. I've been playing on PTS everyday and mDK feels cluncky.Or saying that power lash being dodgeable will be useless as if every dodgeable ability in the game is useless.
As mentioned countless times powerlash differs from other skills when it comes to it being undodgeable. The reason for that is simple: to proc powerlash, you need to use roots (basically) which triggers an immediate rolldodge response. In short, the proc to powerlash is the reason for it's demise. Due to this fact, powerlash will have a much higher dodge rate than any other already dodgeable skill - rendering the comparison between powerlash and surprise attack or any other skill useless. Oh, and btw, powerlash is a proc, not a spammable - the spammable, flame lash is dodgeable.Or saying that stamblades dont get to take a lot of dmg when they can dish out a lot of dmg but apparently refuse to use the same (but reversed) logic on mDK.
We do use the same logic for mDKs. A light armor high-damaging mDK will be squishy. Fears correctly timed when shields are down followed by incaps is a very strong mechanic to duel a DK. It'll make up the matchup somewhat similar to sorcs (considering curse is undodgeable and has a hit rate similar to powerlash proc).
What most of these stam players don't realize, is that you just have to CC the magDK as they're rooting you, then escape the root, PREVENTING THEM FROM SETTING YOU OFF-BALANCE in the first place.
They'll never be happy until they can play the game by dodgerolling 100% of all damage until they whittle your health down.
Edited by FlamingBeard on 25 January 2018 17:124 -
Ragnaroek93✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
You might wanna consider practicing reading comprehension skills before puking the forums with reductio ad absurdum logical argumentative fallacies.Please understand I'm not here asking for mDKs buffs, I said it before and I'll say it again, mDKs are an exceptional class.And honestly, mDKs need no further buffs apart from maybe reworking banner as an ult.
I made an entire forum post talking about on how powerlash changes 3.3.0 should be reverted back as it was way to strong and a clear overbuff to mDKs.
Here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/389237/pvp-mdk-changes/p1
I've asked for mDK changes inumerous times before - being it for nerfs or buffs. Making such an ill, unfounded, bottomless and unjustifiable comment only proves that you're illiterate on the topic and misjudging of my persona. Do not jump to conclusions like that.
I come to the forums simply to present my opinion on what - through my scope of reality - could be fair and balanced changes. You've got all the right to disagree, you just don't have the right to claim that I'm using 'the mDK being weak argument to justify bad mechanics and bugs to prove ur point'. Specially when bugs (like powerlash healing for twice as much in pts) were used as arguments from people that mostly differ from my points. As I have never said a single time mDK is weak, on the contrary I think mDKs are exceptional in this game. BUT as I said before, we aren't in a position to take any nerfs and having undodgeable whips is a core mechanic on what makes mDK a fluid and a mechanically elaborate class.
You are the one not reading or maybe just choosing to read whatever suits u. So dont talk to me about fallacies. This thread is filled with them. With people taking medium armor bleed stamplar builds as a standard to say that medium armor dodge roll builds are good against mDK. Or saying that power lash being dodgeable will be useless as if every dodgeable ability in the game is useless. Or saying that NBs can fear before using their incap which also happens to be dodgeable but refuse to use the same logic for mDK. Or saying that stamblades dont get to take a lot of dmg when they can dish out a lot of dmg but apparently refuse to use the same (but reversed) logic on mDK. Or saying that birds are undodgeable so lash should be undodgeable. We can go back and forth on fallacies.
And Im not gonna argue whether mDK is good or not. Thats a whole different discussion but if u ask me i dont think they are. They rely on a bunch of different stupid mechanics that have absolutely nothing to do with mDK in the first place like skoria and they give the idea that they are good but without those mechanics i highly doubt about their performance.
I just simply pointed that undodgeable lashes were also a bug. And the "DK being weak" argument is like a figure of speech. I mean the issues with DKs or whatever you want to call it. And i made that comment in response to ur comment that the double heal on lashes is a bug. It goes both ways. And imo a bug that was very well fixed. Abilities ignoring mechanics shouldnt exist. Doesnt matter how it affects a class. If someone is rolling away from DK roots then he is doing something right. Getting punished for doing something right doesnt make much sense if u ask me.With people taking medium armor bleed stamplar builds as a standard to say that medium armor dodge roll builds are good against mDK.
I'm pretty sure most of us here agreed that stamblade v magDK is an unfavorable matchup towards the the NB. Nonetheless, inumerous arguments were also presented to disprove the fallacy that it's an impossible match up, specially arguments that revolve around DoTs, mobility and incaps which are at the nbs disposal and can be used effectively by the latter. I'll repeat though, it's an unfavorable match up, that is not a reason to change mDK as a whole. It's similar to what happened with TK, people said it was too strong and instead of nerfing TK, ZOS buffed Defile to a point that it's too strong against anybody. mDK being strong against stamblades is not a good cause to change mDK's mechanics completely. I've been playing on PTS everyday and mDK feels cluncky.
But it's not about stamblade vs magDk. I'm doing just fine on heavy armor stamblade against them (have lost to one mag Dk on my heavy armor build since Morrowind until I stopped playing it - in my opinion this matchup is even in favour of the heavy armor nightblade because heavy armor nightblade can pressure magdks so well but that's again not the point), it's about mag Dks have been able to completely shut down a whole armor skill line. I'm fine with counters to dodge (most classes have some kind of damage which goes through dodge) but making literally every single ability on one class undodgeable is a bit extreme, don't you think that as well?
I even agree on some points which mag Dks do but this argument that you should be able to shut down a complete armor skill line is hilarious. I'm pretty sure that most players would actually listen and be up for some good changes which would affect mag Dk in a positive way if you wouldn't make such a fuss about hardcounters getting "nerfed" (you will still do fine against medium armor, you will still get the heal from whip even if it's dodged, there is nothing to worry about).I used to think that PvP was a tragedy, but now I realize, it's a comedy.0 -
Quantum_VClass RepresentativeRagnaroek93 wrote: »
You might wanna consider practicing reading comprehension skills before puking the forums with reductio ad absurdum logical argumentative fallacies.Please understand I'm not here asking for mDKs buffs, I said it before and I'll say it again, mDKs are an exceptional class.And honestly, mDKs need no further buffs apart from maybe reworking banner as an ult.
I made an entire forum post talking about on how powerlash changes 3.3.0 should be reverted back as it was way to strong and a clear overbuff to mDKs.
Here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/389237/pvp-mdk-changes/p1
I've asked for mDK changes inumerous times before - being it for nerfs or buffs. Making such an ill, unfounded, bottomless and unjustifiable comment only proves that you're illiterate on the topic and misjudging of my persona. Do not jump to conclusions like that.
I come to the forums simply to present my opinion on what - through my scope of reality - could be fair and balanced changes. You've got all the right to disagree, you just don't have the right to claim that I'm using 'the mDK being weak argument to justify bad mechanics and bugs to prove ur point'. Specially when bugs (like powerlash healing for twice as much in pts) were used as arguments from people that mostly differ from my points. As I have never said a single time mDK is weak, on the contrary I think mDKs are exceptional in this game. BUT as I said before, we aren't in a position to take any nerfs and having undodgeable whips is a core mechanic on what makes mDK a fluid and a mechanically elaborate class.
You are the one not reading or maybe just choosing to read whatever suits u. So dont talk to me about fallacies. This thread is filled with them. With people taking medium armor bleed stamplar builds as a standard to say that medium armor dodge roll builds are good against mDK. Or saying that power lash being dodgeable will be useless as if every dodgeable ability in the game is useless. Or saying that NBs can fear before using their incap which also happens to be dodgeable but refuse to use the same logic for mDK. Or saying that stamblades dont get to take a lot of dmg when they can dish out a lot of dmg but apparently refuse to use the same (but reversed) logic on mDK. Or saying that birds are undodgeable so lash should be undodgeable. We can go back and forth on fallacies.
And Im not gonna argue whether mDK is good or not. Thats a whole different discussion but if u ask me i dont think they are. They rely on a bunch of different stupid mechanics that have absolutely nothing to do with mDK in the first place like skoria and they give the idea that they are good but without those mechanics i highly doubt about their performance.
I just simply pointed that undodgeable lashes were also a bug. And the "DK being weak" argument is like a figure of speech. I mean the issues with DKs or whatever you want to call it. And i made that comment in response to ur comment that the double heal on lashes is a bug. It goes both ways. And imo a bug that was very well fixed. Abilities ignoring mechanics shouldnt exist. Doesnt matter how it affects a class. If someone is rolling away from DK roots then he is doing something right. Getting punished for doing something right doesnt make much sense if u ask me.With people taking medium armor bleed stamplar builds as a standard to say that medium armor dodge roll builds are good against mDK.
I'm pretty sure most of us here agreed that stamblade v magDK is an unfavorable matchup towards the the NB. Nonetheless, inumerous arguments were also presented to disprove the fallacy that it's an impossible match up, specially arguments that revolve around DoTs, mobility and incaps which are at the nbs disposal and can be used effectively by the latter. I'll repeat though, it's an unfavorable match up, that is not a reason to change mDK as a whole. It's similar to what happened with TK, people said it was too strong and instead of nerfing TK, ZOS buffed Defile to a point that it's too strong against anybody. mDK being strong against stamblades is not a good cause to change mDK's mechanics completely. I've been playing on PTS everyday and mDK feels cluncky.
But it's not about stamblade vs magDk. I'm doing just fine on heavy armor stamblade against them (have lost to one mag Dk on my heavy armor build since Morrowind until I stopped playing it - in my opinion this matchup is even in favour of the heavy armor nightblade because heavy armor nightblade can pressure magdks so well but that's again not the point), it's about mag Dks have been able to completely shut down a whole armor skill line. I'm fine with counters to dodge (most classes have some kind of damage which goes through dodge) but making literally every single ability on one class undodgeable is a bit extreme, don't you think that as well?
I even agree on some points which mag Dks do but this argument that you should be able to shut down a complete armor skill line is hilarious. I'm pretty sure that most players would actually listen and be up for some good changes which would affect mag Dk in a positive way if you wouldn't make such a fuss about hardcounters getting "nerfed" (you will still do fine against medium armor, you will still get the heal from whip even if it's dodged, there is nothing to worry about).
Thanks for your input. I also understand where you're coming from. What we're actually complaining is that powerlash nerf has severe other implications that exceeds fighting your stamina nightblade, once the dodge mechanic is innate to rooting people. I just think the changes made are pointing at the wrong direction. Make most of mDKs skills dodgeable like any regular skill from other classes, but don't make powerlash, a skill that basically ONLY hits people due to the fact that it is undodgeable (yes, I exaggerated a bit, it's just to get my point through clearly). Furthermore, it's been too long since medium armor has been bad, specially in dueling scenarios, but even still there are sets like Fortified brass, pariah, impreg etc... that makes stamblades in medium comparable to heavy armor ones. One of the best duelists out there rn, that won the past Legends tournament runs Impreg on his medium armor stamplar for instance.1 -
FlamingBeard✭✭✭✭✭Ragnaroek93 wrote: »
You might wanna consider practicing reading comprehension skills before puking the forums with reductio ad absurdum logical argumentative fallacies.Please understand I'm not here asking for mDKs buffs, I said it before and I'll say it again, mDKs are an exceptional class.And honestly, mDKs need no further buffs apart from maybe reworking banner as an ult.
I made an entire forum post talking about on how powerlash changes 3.3.0 should be reverted back as it was way to strong and a clear overbuff to mDKs.
Here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/389237/pvp-mdk-changes/p1
I've asked for mDK changes inumerous times before - being it for nerfs or buffs. Making such an ill, unfounded, bottomless and unjustifiable comment only proves that you're illiterate on the topic and misjudging of my persona. Do not jump to conclusions like that.
I come to the forums simply to present my opinion on what - through my scope of reality - could be fair and balanced changes. You've got all the right to disagree, you just don't have the right to claim that I'm using 'the mDK being weak argument to justify bad mechanics and bugs to prove ur point'. Specially when bugs (like powerlash healing for twice as much in pts) were used as arguments from people that mostly differ from my points. As I have never said a single time mDK is weak, on the contrary I think mDKs are exceptional in this game. BUT as I said before, we aren't in a position to take any nerfs and having undodgeable whips is a core mechanic on what makes mDK a fluid and a mechanically elaborate class.
You are the one not reading or maybe just choosing to read whatever suits u. So dont talk to me about fallacies. This thread is filled with them. With people taking medium armor bleed stamplar builds as a standard to say that medium armor dodge roll builds are good against mDK. Or saying that power lash being dodgeable will be useless as if every dodgeable ability in the game is useless. Or saying that NBs can fear before using their incap which also happens to be dodgeable but refuse to use the same logic for mDK. Or saying that stamblades dont get to take a lot of dmg when they can dish out a lot of dmg but apparently refuse to use the same (but reversed) logic on mDK. Or saying that birds are undodgeable so lash should be undodgeable. We can go back and forth on fallacies.
And Im not gonna argue whether mDK is good or not. Thats a whole different discussion but if u ask me i dont think they are. They rely on a bunch of different stupid mechanics that have absolutely nothing to do with mDK in the first place like skoria and they give the idea that they are good but without those mechanics i highly doubt about their performance.
I just simply pointed that undodgeable lashes were also a bug. And the "DK being weak" argument is like a figure of speech. I mean the issues with DKs or whatever you want to call it. And i made that comment in response to ur comment that the double heal on lashes is a bug. It goes both ways. And imo a bug that was very well fixed. Abilities ignoring mechanics shouldnt exist. Doesnt matter how it affects a class. If someone is rolling away from DK roots then he is doing something right. Getting punished for doing something right doesnt make much sense if u ask me.With people taking medium armor bleed stamplar builds as a standard to say that medium armor dodge roll builds are good against mDK.
I'm pretty sure most of us here agreed that stamblade v magDK is an unfavorable matchup towards the the NB. Nonetheless, inumerous arguments were also presented to disprove the fallacy that it's an impossible match up, specially arguments that revolve around DoTs, mobility and incaps which are at the nbs disposal and can be used effectively by the latter. I'll repeat though, it's an unfavorable match up, that is not a reason to change mDK as a whole. It's similar to what happened with TK, people said it was too strong and instead of nerfing TK, ZOS buffed Defile to a point that it's too strong against anybody. mDK being strong against stamblades is not a good cause to change mDK's mechanics completely. I've been playing on PTS everyday and mDK feels cluncky.
But it's not about stamblade vs magDk. I'm doing just fine on heavy armor stamblade against them (have lost to one mag Dk on my heavy armor build since Morrowind until I stopped playing it - in my opinion this matchup is even in favour of the heavy armor nightblade because heavy armor nightblade can pressure magdks so well but that's again not the point), it's about mag Dks have been able to completely shut down a whole armor skill line. I'm fine with counters to dodge (most classes have some kind of damage which goes through dodge) but making literally every single ability on one class undodgeable is a bit extreme, don't you think that as well?
I even agree on some points which mag Dks do but this argument that you should be able to shut down a complete armor skill line is hilarious. I'm pretty sure that most players would actually listen and be up for some good changes which would affect mag Dk in a positive way if you wouldn't make such a fuss about hardcounters getting "nerfed" (you will still do fine against medium armor, you will still get the heal from whip even if it's dodged, there is nothing to worry about).
On the class with the most difficult resource management and least mobility out of every class, yes I do believe that MELEE-RANGED abilities that they must use in order to survive or deal damage, should be undodgeable unless the class is given better mobility and/or resource sustain.
This same concept is why magicka Templar's spammable and its execute are not dodgeable; if they didn't have some unavoidable burst, everyone would just run away from the Templar and never be at much risk of being killed by one.
This is why MagDK needs to retain as much of its undodgeable burst as posisble.
Nightblade has a ton of mobility, so it doesn't need undodgeable skills so much, because it never has any issue keeping up with its targets. The same thing applies to Sorcerer and Warden.
MagDK must work to maintain pressure on a target who could get away at any time if they are any good at Nightblade, Sorcerer, or Warden.Edited by FlamingBeard on 25 January 2018 17:264 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭FlamingBeard wrote: »
You might wanna consider practicing reading comprehension skills before puking the forums with reductio ad absurdum logical argumentative fallacies.Please understand I'm not here asking for mDKs buffs, I said it before and I'll say it again, mDKs are an exceptional class.And honestly, mDKs need no further buffs apart from maybe reworking banner as an ult.
I made an entire forum post talking about on how powerlash changes 3.3.0 should be reverted back as it was way to strong and a clear overbuff to mDKs.
Here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/389237/pvp-mdk-changes/p1
I've asked for mDK changes inumerous times before - being it for nerfs or buffs. Making such an ill, unfounded, bottomless and unjustifiable comment only proves that you're illiterate on the topic and misjudging of my persona. Do not jump to conclusions like that.
I come to the forums simply to present my opinion on what - through my scope of reality - could be fair and balanced changes. You've got all the right to disagree, you just don't have the right to claim that I'm using 'the mDK being weak argument to justify bad mechanics and bugs to prove ur point'. Specially when bugs (like powerlash healing for twice as much in pts) were used as arguments from people that mostly differ from my points. As I have never said a single time mDK is weak, on the contrary I think mDKs are exceptional in this game. BUT as I said before, we aren't in a position to take any nerfs and having undodgeable whips is a core mechanic on what makes mDK a fluid and a mechanically elaborate class.
You are the one not reading or maybe just choosing to read whatever suits u. So dont talk to me about fallacies. This thread is filled with them. With people taking medium armor bleed stamplar builds as a standard to say that medium armor dodge roll builds are good against mDK. Or saying that power lash being dodgeable will be useless as if every dodgeable ability in the game is useless. Or saying that NBs can fear before using their incap which also happens to be dodgeable but refuse to use the same logic for mDK. Or saying that stamblades dont get to take a lot of dmg when they can dish out a lot of dmg but apparently refuse to use the same (but reversed) logic on mDK. Or saying that birds are undodgeable so lash should be undodgeable. We can go back and forth on fallacies.
And Im not gonna argue whether mDK is good or not. Thats a whole different discussion but if u ask me i dont think they are. They rely on a bunch of different stupid mechanics that have absolutely nothing to do with mDK in the first place like skoria and they give the idea that they are good but without those mechanics i highly doubt about their performance.
I just simply pointed that undodgeable lashes were also a bug. And the "DK being weak" argument is like a figure of speech. I mean the issues with DKs or whatever you want to call it. And i made that comment in response to ur comment that the double heal on lashes is a bug. It goes both ways. And imo a bug that was very well fixed. Abilities ignoring mechanics shouldnt exist. Doesnt matter how it affects a class. If someone is rolling away from DK roots then he is doing something right. Getting punished for doing something right doesnt make much sense if u ask me.With people taking medium armor bleed stamplar builds as a standard to say that medium armor dodge roll builds are good against mDK.
I'm pretty sure most of us here agreed that stamblade v magDK is an unfavorable matchup towards the the NB. Nonetheless, inumerous arguments were also presented to disprove the fallacy that it's an impossible match up, specially arguments that revolve around DoTs, mobility and incaps which are at the nbs disposal and can be used effectively by the latter. I'll repeat though, it's an unfavorable match up, that is not a reason to change mDK as a whole. It's similar to what happened with TK, people said it was too strong and instead of nerfing TK, ZOS buffed Defile to a point that it's too strong against anybody. mDK being strong against stamblades is not a good cause to change mDK's mechanics completely. I've been playing on PTS everyday and mDK feels cluncky.Or saying that power lash being dodgeable will be useless as if every dodgeable ability in the game is useless.
As mentioned countless times powerlash differs from other skills when it comes to it being undodgeable. The reason for that is simple: to proc powerlash, you need to use roots (basically) which triggers an immediate rolldodge response. In short, the proc to powerlash is the reason for it's demise. Due to this fact, powerlash will have a much higher dodge rate than any other already dodgeable skill - rendering the comparison between powerlash and surprise attack or any other skill useless. Oh, and btw, powerlash is a proc, not a spammable - the spammable, flame lash is dodgeable.Or saying that stamblades dont get to take a lot of dmg when they can dish out a lot of dmg but apparently refuse to use the same (but reversed) logic on mDK.
We do use the same logic for mDKs. A light armor high-damaging mDK will be squishy. Fears correctly timed when shields are down followed by incaps is a very strong mechanic to duel a DK. It'll make up the matchup somewhat similar to sorcs (considering curse is undodgeable and has a hit rate similar to powerlash proc).
What most of these stam players don't realize, is that you just have to CC the magDK as they're rooting you, then escape the root, PREVENTING THEM FROM SETTING YOU OFF-BALANCE in the first place.
They'll never be happy until they can play the game by dodgerolling 100% of all damage until they whittle your health down.
This is too cute. The same can be said the other way around about mDK:
They'll never be happy until they can play the game by ingoring dodgerolling 100% of all damage until they whittle your health down.
Ups...1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Ragnaroek93 wrote: »
You might wanna consider practicing reading comprehension skills before puking the forums with reductio ad absurdum logical argumentative fallacies.Please understand I'm not here asking for mDKs buffs, I said it before and I'll say it again, mDKs are an exceptional class.And honestly, mDKs need no further buffs apart from maybe reworking banner as an ult.
I made an entire forum post talking about on how powerlash changes 3.3.0 should be reverted back as it was way to strong and a clear overbuff to mDKs.
Here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/389237/pvp-mdk-changes/p1
I've asked for mDK changes inumerous times before - being it for nerfs or buffs. Making such an ill, unfounded, bottomless and unjustifiable comment only proves that you're illiterate on the topic and misjudging of my persona. Do not jump to conclusions like that.
I come to the forums simply to present my opinion on what - through my scope of reality - could be fair and balanced changes. You've got all the right to disagree, you just don't have the right to claim that I'm using 'the mDK being weak argument to justify bad mechanics and bugs to prove ur point'. Specially when bugs (like powerlash healing for twice as much in pts) were used as arguments from people that mostly differ from my points. As I have never said a single time mDK is weak, on the contrary I think mDKs are exceptional in this game. BUT as I said before, we aren't in a position to take any nerfs and having undodgeable whips is a core mechanic on what makes mDK a fluid and a mechanically elaborate class.
You are the one not reading or maybe just choosing to read whatever suits u. So dont talk to me about fallacies. This thread is filled with them. With people taking medium armor bleed stamplar builds as a standard to say that medium armor dodge roll builds are good against mDK. Or saying that power lash being dodgeable will be useless as if every dodgeable ability in the game is useless. Or saying that NBs can fear before using their incap which also happens to be dodgeable but refuse to use the same logic for mDK. Or saying that stamblades dont get to take a lot of dmg when they can dish out a lot of dmg but apparently refuse to use the same (but reversed) logic on mDK. Or saying that birds are undodgeable so lash should be undodgeable. We can go back and forth on fallacies.
And Im not gonna argue whether mDK is good or not. Thats a whole different discussion but if u ask me i dont think they are. They rely on a bunch of different stupid mechanics that have absolutely nothing to do with mDK in the first place like skoria and they give the idea that they are good but without those mechanics i highly doubt about their performance.
I just simply pointed that undodgeable lashes were also a bug. And the "DK being weak" argument is like a figure of speech. I mean the issues with DKs or whatever you want to call it. And i made that comment in response to ur comment that the double heal on lashes is a bug. It goes both ways. And imo a bug that was very well fixed. Abilities ignoring mechanics shouldnt exist. Doesnt matter how it affects a class. If someone is rolling away from DK roots then he is doing something right. Getting punished for doing something right doesnt make much sense if u ask me.With people taking medium armor bleed stamplar builds as a standard to say that medium armor dodge roll builds are good against mDK.
I'm pretty sure most of us here agreed that stamblade v magDK is an unfavorable matchup towards the the NB. Nonetheless, inumerous arguments were also presented to disprove the fallacy that it's an impossible match up, specially arguments that revolve around DoTs, mobility and incaps which are at the nbs disposal and can be used effectively by the latter. I'll repeat though, it's an unfavorable match up, that is not a reason to change mDK as a whole. It's similar to what happened with TK, people said it was too strong and instead of nerfing TK, ZOS buffed Defile to a point that it's too strong against anybody. mDK being strong against stamblades is not a good cause to change mDK's mechanics completely. I've been playing on PTS everyday and mDK feels cluncky.
But it's not about stamblade vs magDk. I'm doing just fine on heavy armor stamblade against them (have lost to one mag Dk on my heavy armor build since Morrowind until I stopped playing it - in my opinion this matchup is even in favour of the heavy armor nightblade because heavy armor nightblade can pressure magdks so well but that's again not the point), it's about mag Dks have been able to completely shut down a whole armor skill line. I'm fine with counters to dodge (most classes have some kind of damage which goes through dodge) but making literally every single ability on one class undodgeable is a bit extreme, don't you think that as well?
I even agree on some points which mag Dks do but this argument that you should be able to shut down a complete armor skill line is hilarious. I'm pretty sure that most players would actually listen and be up for some good changes which would affect mag Dk in a positive way if you wouldn't make such a fuss about hardcounters getting "nerfed" (you will still do fine against medium armor, you will still get the heal from whip even if it's dodged, there is nothing to worry about).
Thanks for your input. I also understand where you're coming from. What we're actually complaining is that powerlash nerf has severe other implications that exceeds fighting your stamina nightblade, once the dodge mechanic is innate to rooting people. I just think the changes made are pointing at the wrong direction. Make most of mDKs skills dodgeable like any regular skill from other classes, but don't make powerlash, a skill that basically ONLY hits people due to the fact that it is undodgeable (yes, I exaggerated a bit, it's just to get my point through clearly). Furthermore, it's been too long since medium armor has been bad, specially in dueling scenarios, but even still there are sets like Fortified brass, pariah, impreg etc... that makes stamblades in medium comparable to heavy armor ones. One of the best duelists out there rn, that won the past Legends tournament runs Impreg on his medium armor stamplar for instance.
If that were true, I'd be struggling right now on PTS.
Truth is, vs light/heavy builds I land 90%++ of Power Lashes and vs medium armor builds around 50% of them (number can be improved). These hyperboles don't help your argument.
Also, I'm on PTS (yes, where the Lash is dodgeable on top of it all) if you'd wish to show me how you survive vs high dmg mDK with Fortified Brass or Impreg (sets which no one who wants to get kills uses on Live) on a dodge roll build.
Go on, make a template if you don't have a stam character & whisper @DDuke . Show me how it's done if you're so sure of it.
P.S. last time a medium armor build won any tournament, we were in proc set meta.Edited by DDuke on 25 January 2018 17:370 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
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You might wanna consider practicing reading comprehension skills before puking the forums with reductio ad absurdum logical argumentative fallacies.Please understand I'm not here asking for mDKs buffs, I said it before and I'll say it again, mDKs are an exceptional class.And honestly, mDKs need no further buffs apart from maybe reworking banner as an ult.
I made an entire forum post talking about on how powerlash changes 3.3.0 should be reverted back as it was way to strong and a clear overbuff to mDKs.
Here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/389237/pvp-mdk-changes/p1
I've asked for mDK changes inumerous times before - being it for nerfs or buffs. Making such an ill, unfounded, bottomless and unjustifiable comment only proves that you're illiterate on the topic and misjudging of my persona. Do not jump to conclusions like that.
I come to the forums simply to present my opinion on what - through my scope of reality - could be fair and balanced changes. You've got all the right to disagree, you just don't have the right to claim that I'm using 'the mDK being weak argument to justify bad mechanics and bugs to prove ur point'. Specially when bugs (like powerlash healing for twice as much in pts) were used as arguments from people that mostly differ from my points. As I have never said a single time mDK is weak, on the contrary I think mDKs are exceptional in this game. BUT as I said before, we aren't in a position to take any nerfs and having undodgeable whips is a core mechanic on what makes mDK a fluid and a mechanically elaborate class.
You are the one not reading or maybe just choosing to read whatever suits u. So dont talk to me about fallacies. This thread is filled with them. With people taking medium armor bleed stamplar builds as a standard to say that medium armor dodge roll builds are good against mDK. Or saying that power lash being dodgeable will be useless as if every dodgeable ability in the game is useless. Or saying that NBs can fear before using their incap which also happens to be dodgeable but refuse to use the same logic for mDK. Or saying that stamblades dont get to take a lot of dmg when they can dish out a lot of dmg but apparently refuse to use the same (but reversed) logic on mDK. Or saying that birds are undodgeable so lash should be undodgeable. We can go back and forth on fallacies.
And Im not gonna argue whether mDK is good or not. Thats a whole different discussion but if u ask me i dont think they are. They rely on a bunch of different stupid mechanics that have absolutely nothing to do with mDK in the first place like skoria and they give the idea that they are good but without those mechanics i highly doubt about their performance.
I just simply pointed that undodgeable lashes were also a bug. And the "DK being weak" argument is like a figure of speech. I mean the issues with DKs or whatever you want to call it. And i made that comment in response to ur comment that the double heal on lashes is a bug. It goes both ways. And imo a bug that was very well fixed. Abilities ignoring mechanics shouldnt exist. Doesnt matter how it affects a class. If someone is rolling away from DK roots then he is doing something right. Getting punished for doing something right doesnt make much sense if u ask me.With people taking medium armor bleed stamplar builds as a standard to say that medium armor dodge roll builds are good against mDK.
I'm pretty sure most of us here agreed that stamblade v magDK is an unfavorable matchup towards the the NB. Nonetheless, inumerous arguments were also presented to disprove the fallacy that it's an impossible match up, specially arguments that revolve around DoTs, mobility and incaps which are at the nbs disposal and can be used effectively by the latter. I'll repeat though, it's an unfavorable match up, that is not a reason to change mDK as a whole. It's similar to what happened with TK, people said it was too strong and instead of nerfing TK, ZOS buffed Defile to a point that it's too strong against anybody. mDK being strong against stamblades is not a good cause to change mDK's mechanics completely. I've been playing on PTS everyday and mDK feels cluncky.Or saying that power lash being dodgeable will be useless as if every dodgeable ability in the game is useless.
As mentioned countless times powerlash differs from other skills when it comes to it being undodgeable. The reason for that is simple: to proc powerlash, you need to use roots (basically) which triggers an immediate rolldodge response. In short, the proc to powerlash is the reason for it's demise. Due to this fact, powerlash will have a much higher dodge rate than any other already dodgeable skill - rendering the comparison between powerlash and surprise attack or any other skill useless. Oh, and btw, powerlash is a proc, not a spammable - the spammable, flame lash is dodgeable.Or saying that stamblades dont get to take a lot of dmg when they can dish out a lot of dmg but apparently refuse to use the same (but reversed) logic on mDK.
We do use the same logic for mDKs. A light armor high-damaging mDK will be squishy. Fears correctly timed when shields are down followed by incaps is a very strong mechanic to duel a DK. It'll make up the matchup somewhat similar to sorcs (considering curse is undodgeable and has a hit rate similar to powerlash proc).
I am not making a debate on stamblade vs mDK either. Just stated some fallacies regarding stamblade vs mDK in this thread.
And i completely agree with you that defile is way over the top and it mostly affects mDK and makes dragon blood not healing for [snip].
You can hit a power lash right after a cc just like an incap after a fear. It doesnt matter if talons trigger a reaction to roll. Using the same logic, watching a sorc's hands glow indicate an incoming frag. Watching a magblade light attacks indicate an incoming spectral bow. Watching a stamblade jumping you indicate an incoming incap. Watching a giant beam of light on ur character indicate an incoming burst. And the list goes on. All that trigger a reaction to counter. Thats skillful and smart gameplay. This is what we need. If someone reacted to ur roots to avoid an incoming power lash then he did something good. You shouldnt punish people for playing good. Im all for punishing people that are in ur roots and u are pummeling them. They should be screwed in those cases. Not just simply sit there and take it. But not when they are actually playing good.
Id say something about the warden too but the only reaction that wardens trigger is the reaction of getting prepared to be abused to death with their stupid mechanics.
[Edited to remove profanity]Edited by ZOS_KatP on 26 January 2018 21:450 -
Quantum_VClass RepresentativeRagnaroek93 wrote: »
You might wanna consider practicing reading comprehension skills before puking the forums with reductio ad absurdum logical argumentative fallacies.Please understand I'm not here asking for mDKs buffs, I said it before and I'll say it again, mDKs are an exceptional class.And honestly, mDKs need no further buffs apart from maybe reworking banner as an ult.
I made an entire forum post talking about on how powerlash changes 3.3.0 should be reverted back as it was way to strong and a clear overbuff to mDKs.
Here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/389237/pvp-mdk-changes/p1
I've asked for mDK changes inumerous times before - being it for nerfs or buffs. Making such an ill, unfounded, bottomless and unjustifiable comment only proves that you're illiterate on the topic and misjudging of my persona. Do not jump to conclusions like that.
I come to the forums simply to present my opinion on what - through my scope of reality - could be fair and balanced changes. You've got all the right to disagree, you just don't have the right to claim that I'm using 'the mDK being weak argument to justify bad mechanics and bugs to prove ur point'. Specially when bugs (like powerlash healing for twice as much in pts) were used as arguments from people that mostly differ from my points. As I have never said a single time mDK is weak, on the contrary I think mDKs are exceptional in this game. BUT as I said before, we aren't in a position to take any nerfs and having undodgeable whips is a core mechanic on what makes mDK a fluid and a mechanically elaborate class.
You are the one not reading or maybe just choosing to read whatever suits u. So dont talk to me about fallacies. This thread is filled with them. With people taking medium armor bleed stamplar builds as a standard to say that medium armor dodge roll builds are good against mDK. Or saying that power lash being dodgeable will be useless as if every dodgeable ability in the game is useless. Or saying that NBs can fear before using their incap which also happens to be dodgeable but refuse to use the same logic for mDK. Or saying that stamblades dont get to take a lot of dmg when they can dish out a lot of dmg but apparently refuse to use the same (but reversed) logic on mDK. Or saying that birds are undodgeable so lash should be undodgeable. We can go back and forth on fallacies.
And Im not gonna argue whether mDK is good or not. Thats a whole different discussion but if u ask me i dont think they are. They rely on a bunch of different stupid mechanics that have absolutely nothing to do with mDK in the first place like skoria and they give the idea that they are good but without those mechanics i highly doubt about their performance.
I just simply pointed that undodgeable lashes were also a bug. And the "DK being weak" argument is like a figure of speech. I mean the issues with DKs or whatever you want to call it. And i made that comment in response to ur comment that the double heal on lashes is a bug. It goes both ways. And imo a bug that was very well fixed. Abilities ignoring mechanics shouldnt exist. Doesnt matter how it affects a class. If someone is rolling away from DK roots then he is doing something right. Getting punished for doing something right doesnt make much sense if u ask me.With people taking medium armor bleed stamplar builds as a standard to say that medium armor dodge roll builds are good against mDK.
I'm pretty sure most of us here agreed that stamblade v magDK is an unfavorable matchup towards the the NB. Nonetheless, inumerous arguments were also presented to disprove the fallacy that it's an impossible match up, specially arguments that revolve around DoTs, mobility and incaps which are at the nbs disposal and can be used effectively by the latter. I'll repeat though, it's an unfavorable match up, that is not a reason to change mDK as a whole. It's similar to what happened with TK, people said it was too strong and instead of nerfing TK, ZOS buffed Defile to a point that it's too strong against anybody. mDK being strong against stamblades is not a good cause to change mDK's mechanics completely. I've been playing on PTS everyday and mDK feels cluncky.
But it's not about stamblade vs magDk. I'm doing just fine on heavy armor stamblade against them (have lost to one mag Dk on my heavy armor build since Morrowind until I stopped playing it - in my opinion this matchup is even in favour of the heavy armor nightblade because heavy armor nightblade can pressure magdks so well but that's again not the point), it's about mag Dks have been able to completely shut down a whole armor skill line. I'm fine with counters to dodge (most classes have some kind of damage which goes through dodge) but making literally every single ability on one class undodgeable is a bit extreme, don't you think that as well?
I even agree on some points which mag Dks do but this argument that you should be able to shut down a complete armor skill line is hilarious. I'm pretty sure that most players would actually listen and be up for some good changes which would affect mag Dk in a positive way if you wouldn't make such a fuss about hardcounters getting "nerfed" (you will still do fine against medium armor, you will still get the heal from whip even if it's dodged, there is nothing to worry about).
Thanks for your input. I also understand where you're coming from. What we're actually complaining is that powerlash nerf has severe other implications that exceeds fighting your stamina nightblade, once the dodge mechanic is innate to rooting people. I just think the changes made are pointing at the wrong direction. Make most of mDKs skills dodgeable like any regular skill from other classes, but don't make powerlash, a skill that basically ONLY hits people due to the fact that it is undodgeable (yes, I exaggerated a bit, it's just to get my point through clearly). Furthermore, it's been too long since medium armor has been bad, specially in dueling scenarios, but even still there are sets like Fortified brass, pariah, impreg etc... that makes stamblades in medium comparable to heavy armor ones. One of the best duelists out there rn, that won the past Legends tournament runs Impreg on his medium armor stamplar for instance.
If that were true, I'd be struggling right now on PTS.
Truth is, vs light/heavy builds I land 90%++ of Power Lashes and vs medium armor builds around 50% of them (number can be improved). These hyperboles don't help your argument.
Also, I'm on PTS (yes, where the Lash is dodgeable on top of it all) if you'd wish to show me how you survive vs high dmg mDK with Fortified Brass or Impreg (sets which no one who wants to get kills uses on Live) on a dodge roll build.
Go on, make a template if you don't have a stam character & whisper @DDuke . Show me how it's done if you're so sure of it.
P.S. last time a medium armor build won any tournament, we were in proc set meta.
Duke, why do you talk about things you've got no clue about?
Last time a medium armor build won a dueling tournament was last week, and not only it was a dueling tournament it is the biggest tournament from EU and NA. Kirimoto won, with a medium armor stamplar. Like, if you're gonna make statements AT LEAST figure out what you're talking about. First bringing forth wrong numbers from CC immunity, now establishing LIES about how last time medium armor won tournaments was in proc set meta... Like, do you just make random stuff up and expect people to believe in it as if was an aboslute truth or what?
Duke, I've got no idea on how to play stam classes, haven't played nothing but mDK for the past two years. And I bet a bugged powerlash with double healing and healing people when it misses has got to be helping out.
If you're just gonna lie and throw out blunt disinformation you might aswell just stop commenting under this thread.Edited by Quantum_V on 25 January 2018 17:474 -
Jawasa✭✭✭Yes make all magdk skills undodgeable and go past block. They need it. Why just powerlash going past dodge normal whip should do it like it did 2 years ago!! LOL0
