Essiaga wrote: »

RoamingRiverElk wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Nerfs to damage shields, well any nerfs for that matter to any class im not on board with, not in the current state of the game with CP and such.

Damage Shields have been nerfed substantially twice in the past year and yet people are still crying about it....

Bolt Escape has been nerfed a record 7 times and folks are still crying about Sorcs....

Sorry I just can't get on board with anymore nerfs.....the changes ZOS has made already concerning nerfs have driven many people away...i rarely log anymore because of it.

The nerfs to damage shields, Bolt Escape, Dodge roll, Healing, etc have done NOTHING but promote zerg warfare...most of these changes listed in the OP will do nothing but empower zergs.

Everyone wants penalties for using any defensive skill that makes it harder to kill you.

Where are the penalties for spamming Wrecking Blow?

Where are the penalties for spamming Ambush? or any other gap close

Where the the penalties for spamming any "offensive attack" for that matter?

There are none, yet folks continually get on here and rail and demand they nerf every single defensive mechanic in the game....

This in turn has ruined the game, ESO right now is in the worst shape it has ever been in from a combat perspective, and its not because of AOE caps, its because of constant changes and nerfs to defensive skills and abilities with no inverse nerfs to spamming offensive abilities which does nothing but promote zerg warfare.

@Ezareth summed it up a few months ago, an "uninteresting combat system" is what they created with the IPC patch moving forward....

You do nothing but create a zergfest when you nerf and put restrictive penalties on defensive skills while putting no such penalties on offensive skills.

Look at Bolt Escape, if you use it twice within 4 seconds, it costs 50% more cost increase stack and keeps increasing with each cast.

Look at Critical Charge you can spam it over and over and over, it has a longer range then Bolt Escape, Costs less, Has a hidden silence and stun built in, does damage, has no cost increase penalty, and can be spammed over and over and over without penalty and we wonder why this game is a full on zergfest.

Its no secret this game went from fighting all over the map with people traveling alone or in groups of 2-3 with fights all over the place to everyone running in giant 40+ man zergs, because they have tipped the scales so far in favor of full blown offense that using any defensive measures is penalized so heavily that it makes far more sense to run with a large group of other players to offset the penalties associated with using any defensive skills....

Please understand, im not trying to be harsh, but every update they have nerfed defensive and survival skills and every update the zerg gets worse and worse to the point the game is almost unplalyable, i will be watching the next update very carefully and if its once again nothing but nerfs to defensive and survival skills with no such nerfs to offensive skills i will be finished with the game for good.

Yes they do need to make DK healing work, on top of that they need to remove these stupid penalties from Bolt Escape, Dodge rolling, and add 25% of the value back to damage sheilds...VR16 Weapons are actually the equivalent of VR20 weapons in terms of how much damage they give you ad gold value, and the nerf to shields currently is far more then what many realize. Its part of what have made DK and Templar's have such a hard time because their damage sheilds are useless under the current system, and Sorc's Ward is just barely viable as Ward is good for absorbing one Wrecking Blow before it needs recast.

if we continue down this path of nerfs to defensive skills and survival skills with no nerfs to offensive skills this game will become 100% zergfest dominated with no other playstyle viable, and thats a game I want no part in playing....and if their podcasts are any indication, then many of those streamers you listed don't want no part of playing such a game either...

This is so, so true. Amazing post, thank you for writing it.

Few things ...
Agree with the not nerfing defensive skills but it they were done in the name of balance. Every class needs an equal chance to kill and be killed. Mitigation and escape are 2 different discussions. As a magicka templar we tend to lack both, along with DPS.

Those who excel at DPS need to be counteracted with skills that mitigate or reduce damage.(maim/protection/resolve/ward/evasion, etc ... and shields)

Those who excel at movement need to be counteracted with CC and speed debuff which are countered with CC break, dodge roll ... basically stamina.

How do you counter Streak? It breaks roots and snares. No debuff keeps it from happening. They're simply isn't a viable counter. Perhaps they could make it so a DOTed sorc can't streak or perhaps just Mark and Backlash could keep Sorcs from streaking as DK have some viable counters to sorcs. IDK but infinite streaks and dodge rolls leave us where we are. Sorcs and stam builds (mobility and DPS is the current meta. Heavy armor/tanky builds are dead). Perhaps a simple increase in cost of Streak would suffice but either way it is a mobility with no counter and no equal. Its the most powerful escape ability in the game and coupled with the most powerful single target spell and by far the largest shields makes for a pretty kick ass class.

So if we increase the cost of Steak as a counter why not just increase the cost of dodge roll as well? Well even though magicka classes can't infinite dodge roll it doesn't mean they don't need to do it every now and then and the also need to be able to block and since Sorcs have the only shield that last more then 6 secs and is larger enough to take more then a hit or 2 they have an advantage in having to cast less and having to block less. They don't need to roll since they Streak and they don't have to worry about collision either as they'll streak through the attacker. Tough spot. Do we just let dodge rollers and streakers the ability to never be caught by other magicka builds? Seems a little unfair as those are the classes with weak shields, weak dps, weak mobility, and in the case of the templar weak CC.

How do you counter Shields? There's not Debuff for shields. The skills that are said to do more damage to shields have not worked in some time. So the only counter for shields is raw DPS. Templars and DK do not excel at DPS. So do we raise the DPS of these classes which will make them out shine Sorcs in PVE? Perhaps the sorc will need a DPS increase to off set this, but then they'll do more damage with the other classes getting no more mitigation.

Do we Decrease all shield size? The Battel spirit nerf was a blanket nerf to shields which effects all shields and shield stacking is only being complained about when it comes to sorcs. This also does nothing to give those lower dps, low to no mobility classes back their shields that are already to small to justify using. So Sorcs will take a nerf to shields but that won't improve the other classes lack of mobility or survival skills.

Increasing shield 25% would helps Templar/DK survive more but also make shield stacking sorcs a larger problem. so instead of 15-17k shield stacking we'll be seeing to 20k+. Sorcs will still be OP. So to kill a sorc you'll need to do enough damage to kill them atleast twice if the choose not to pop another shield or streak off before you get the chance to kill them, which again for templars and DK might take quite some time.

So what do we do? Address these imbalances? Balance the classes by balancing? Rebalance the entire game through increasing dps across the board and buffing 2 shields ... or addressing the skills that are the source of the inbalance?

Streak is still mighty annoying in PVP but is more limited. Let it ride as it is.

Dodge Roll is keeping those with more stamina from abusing it while still allowing magicka users a dodge roll, maybe even 2 if they don't care to block or CC break, etc. So let it ride.

Shields need rebalanced to be more equal with the bottom getting a buff and top getting nerfed. This will help balance out dodge roll as well.

Crit charge requires distance and a target. It gets you into trouble, not out, which is the case of any gap closer.

Ambush and WB do need addressed and many of the same people calling for Shield balance are calling for this as well. Ambush is the only gap closer that doesn't require distance making it completely spamable. Give it a distance.
WB empowers, stuns, knockdowns and can't be interrupted. Making it interrupt-able would be great but I think that's a larger issue. Removing Empower and removing the stun would be great. It would be less spam-able but still worth spam-ing.

I would also point out the most zerg friendly skills are not WB, Ambush, Crit Charge, or any others discussed in your post or my reply. I would say the are the Alliance Skills, Resto Skill, and Steel Tornado. I believe the Alliance skills and CP are unbalancing the classes and creating imbalance among players so that true blance is going to be hard to achieve.

I already called for a removal of Alliance Skills in a number of threads to combat zerging and improve server performance and @Wrobel already stated Steel Tornado would receive a nerf.

I get where your coming from and agree we need effective counters to DPS, not more DPS, but that's going to require a little buffing and a little nerfing

CP5 wrote: »

Essiaga wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

Essiaga wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Makkir wrote: »

Rayste wrote: »

12) Healing Ward, many of you will argue, is OP and needs nerfed, but I view it as a good tool to use against that OP stamina damage that is running rampant in Cyrodiil. I'm sure this will warrant further discussion.

No.

Currently sorcs do not have any class heals. You ruin Healing Ward and suddenly sorcs wont be taken into vet groups to heal.

Healing Ward is THE staple heal for any Sorc that is healing in PvE.

My NB healer agrees, I personally am ok with how it works currently. Harness on the other hand....

Corellon Thromorin wrote: »

We should compile the threads ZOS should ignore. Let's start with this one on the list.

The issue with Healing Ward and Harness is Sorc's Hardened Ward. If Hardened Ward wasn't so high by it's self (3x larger then they next magicka class shield due to all other shields being based on health) then shield stacking wouldn't be an issue as no one cares when other classes do it.

I posted a few times about a Major/Minor Shield buff (an idea borrowed from another forum poster which I'm sorry i won't be able to properly credit) that would bring all shields in line. Major Shield would 20% and Minor 10% of either magicka or health, whichever is higher. Being that there are only 2 buffs you could never stack more then 2 shields and never for more then 30% max magicka or health. All class shields would be Major Shield Buff. All non-class would be Minor.

Healing Ward - I think all classes besides Templar should get a passive that increases the shield on ally by 50%. This would mean they would give essentially a 15% shield to the ally. This would help to bridge the gap between Templar and other classes playing the healer role, though of course there will still be a gap.

Also Sorc's do have class heals in Surge, Blood Magic, and Dark Exchange. They have access to Consuming Trap, Blood Alter, Energy Orb, Cleanse, and any abilities in Restorations staff Tree, including Blessing of Protection which some use over Healing Ward and can heal as strong as Breath of Life.

Sorc's also have other defensive skills such as Bolt Escape, Lightning Form which grants Expedition, Conjured Ward, and a bunch of CCs that also allow them to control or escape fight. They also have monster DPS compared to other magicka builds.

Over all I think the only legit complaint about the Sorc is they have Burst DPS over sustain DPS but that's the reason people play Sorcs over the other magicka classes. They lack the weaknesses other classes have due to Ward being such a large shield. That is easily overcome with use of Destruction staff, but the issue is that Sorcs want their cake and ice cream and cookies and pie and want it all with in the class so as to not sacrifice Spell damage for utility. So on the DPS bar they would need Force Shock, and on the defensive/buff bar they need a Resto ability. They'll lose 2% spell damage on each bar by going outside of their tree and more by not using Duel Wield. I would suggest a Crystal Shards morph that would basically be Force Shock. It would not have the burst damage that CF has but I don't think anyone that PVPs will morph away from CF.

They are low risk, high reward where as the other classes have a good bit of risk compared to reward as they can not escape or depend on shield that is based on health and screwed by Battle Spirit in PVP. Many other magicka builds are using Sword and Shield and stamina abilities such as Evasion to make up for their lack of mitigation and mobility.

Healing Ward is the best shields a Magicka NB has as they do not have a class shield. While NB have some quality self heals and mobility they're stuck being a stealthier class to survive (as they should) where as a Sorc will dance around taunting enemies to exploit the situation. They don't have to run away or escape. They can Stand and Fight or Bolt Away or Nuke.

In short nerf sorc's shields buff other classes shields a bit and shields stacking wan't matter much.

Surge, so RNG with some more RNG? Need to have a crit, and have it be a strong crit, against a non-shielded non-blocking target. Wouldn't call that reliable. (So you want BOL?)

Blood Magic, 8%, sorry, 4% max health heal tied to expensive skills that demand large magicka pools to be useful. And what skill should a sorc use to reliably proc this passive? Hard cast frags? (Daedric Mines - CC, Damage, Heal x 5)

Dark Exchange, i've seen some say otherwise but this slow clunky 'heal' takes to long and does far to little in my opinion.(agree. its a PVE skill )

Consuming Trap, need to kill the target, and honestly how many people do you see using this skill anywhere aside from filling soul gems? (Mark Target - need to kill)

Blood Alter, only provides the health regen major buff to the caster as they can't ever use the synergy.

Energy Orb, Cleanse, not that fond of chasing the orbs around for heals but I guess restricting yourself to its movement to get heals can't be that bad. (Streak to them. Try standing in Rune.)

Restorations staff, most known for the healing ward spam which is a very strong shield and I wouldn't really Blessing of Protection spam should be what a class relies on for staying alive, its bad enough saying 'x class must use y'. (BOP is about as strong as BOL ... so Templar advantage?)

I'll also add two heals you missed, the Clannfear and Twilight. The clannfear is a pet that zos turned into a sacrificial decoy, sure provides a heal but why even have it as a pet if that's the intent (also that 'change' came with a cast time for the whole skill), and the twilight's heal is a channel that only procs at low health that damages the twilight as it cast it with a 30s cooldown and it is on a pet that is already fond enough of killing itself. (Pets alway stink and are hard to balance as no one wants to depend on them. They want them in Addition to everything else)

Honestly you're underplaying harness magicka and healing ward, so if sorcs didn't need to rely on spamming shields to survive then by all means change how they work, but i'm not seeing alternatives in these kind of threads, only revenge nerfing.

Replied in your quote with bold text.

I wouldn't call NB heals truly reliable. However there are fewer MagBlade complaints that they don't have shields then Sorcs complaints that they don't have heals. As far as "X class must use Y" ... we already have that. Templar lacks mitigation and shield stinks, so many use Evasion or are vamps, etc. DK has no ranged attacks aside from Stone fist so they must use Destro, Resto, or bow. NB has no shields and really can do just about everything in class. They just seem to supplement with destro, resto, 2hand, DW, etc. Every class has a weakness or 2. Some are more easily overcome. You want BOL in exchange for ward and Streak? No you want it in addition to it but not via Resto staff as you pretty much already have access to it, but yet its the argument against all things Templar where as we can't get CF damage, Wards shields, streaks mobility ...

Again the issue with Ward and shield stacking is that the only counter to it is raw damage that some classes lack as magicka builds. So you either increase everyone's DPS (either in class or with weapon abilities) or you nerf the shields that need nerfed and buff the shields that need buffed.

Would you like to trade Destro staff their spamable (Force Shock) for CF so that we ALL can have magicka WB for all magicka classes? That would balance Hardened Ward but unbalance other classes ... The Blood Magic passive is one of the reason you have CF over a spamable skill. No skill in this line could be spamable or Sorcs would never die or the passive would need changed.

Sorc's don't NEED more class heals or shields 3x larger then everyone else BEFORE being stacked. They can find other ways. Ask a Templar. Templar and DKs need to be able Mitigate to make up for low dps ... how do you mitigate opposing players shields?

Shields are not balanced so changing things up a bit isn't reinventing the game. Besides when Blinding Flashes was removed you don't think Templars had an adjustment to make? We weren't given anything to off set it (no evasion or maim in place of miss chance). I'm suggesting less shields, not no shields.

Yes. Sorcs will die more but they'll only die as much as everyone else. If you see revenge nerfs in what i posted when i cited so many different reason then I'm afraid I think you are only looking through fearful eyes. The sky wouldn't fall, sorcs would just be coming down to earth, or nirn i guess. I'm suggesting equality. If what I presented isn't equality then recommend another fix rather then basically calling me, and everyone who things Hardened Ward is OP, petty. Might not be they way it was intended but nothing constructive to suggest otherwise.

Alternatives?

My point is the heals they have are niche and relatively unreliable. You can't count on surge saving you, blood magic is, in cyrodiil a 4% max health heal but is in a tree that has expensive skills that require large magicka pools to both use and make useful. Consuming trap is a small dot thats heal is as strong as blood magic (with some resource regen thrown in) on kills where as mark target provides major armor debuffs and is a much larger % heal, as well as either giving a damage buff and bigger heal or rendering other nb's cloaks moot. Streaking to orbs gets rid of the sorc's advantage of using mines, unless they want to keep recasting mines (omitting the fact that the common morph keeps the arming time, and people can walk between the mines or simply stay out of range).

I don't enjoy the meta revolving around 'must max dps' and having damage be the only factor. I don't like how the counter for most things is just kill as fast as possible. But people just keep hurling rage post at all sorcs as if they are the cause of all the worlds problems and don't see that they are being pushed into a corner just as bad as everyone else. My bow using sorc doesn't have mines, or ward, or streak spam so what in class is there? I know that in pvp I can not rely on surge to keep me alive at all, and my magicka sorc? Try as much as I want I keep coming back to having to adopt the same old fotm build to stay alive. I would love to use alternatives but the thing is sorc's don't have them.

Niche and Unreliable. Yes. Their a DPS class ... So go out side the class, couple of staffs and you're good to go. Tell me were to get a shield similar to hardened ward or a anything resembling streak?

I get that you use what works to make you the most effective you can be. If the game changes you'll find away. There has to be a legit counter to everything in the game and there really isn't one to Streak or Shield Stacking aside from rolling a Sorc.

Eclipse doesn't stop you from streaking nor break shields. You'll CC break and be no worse off. DK uses reflect and you streak and run away and never have to fight a fight you don't think you can win. Both classes lack mobility so people cry for more mobility via Expedition, but that can be countered by snares and CC. How do you counter Steak and shields?

As for your stam-sorc you use Vigor and Rally and Evasion like every other stamina class. Dodge roll for expedition (or use Lighting Form), CC with scatter shot or bombard maybe defensive rune, and streak to get some distance. Or just spin to win and WB spam. Either way you're doing better then magicka templar and DK as there're standing still and doing less damage and poor mitigation along with it. They're just missing 'miss chance.'

Whats a stam-plar use? Vigor and rally and evasion ... They'd HAVE to use a bow for expedition and CC as the class simple doesn't offer it, even at the cost of magicka.

Now compare the buffs and debuffs of stamina weapons to that of staves. Sorc don't care but Magicka templars are using bows. BOWS!

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

Makkir wrote: »

Rayste wrote: »

12) Healing Ward, many of you will argue, is OP and needs nerfed, but I view it as a good tool to use against that OP stamina damage that is running rampant in Cyrodiil. I'm sure this will warrant further discussion.

No.

Currently sorcs do not have any class heals. You ruin Healing Ward and suddenly sorcs wont be taken into vet groups to heal.

Healing Ward is THE staple heal for any Sorc that is healing in PvE.

That's funny, I heard about sorc's just using crit surge to heal themselves through the entire vet Maelstrom Arena

Stam sorcs yes, because crit rush is 100% crit. For magicka sorcs surge is merely a buff unless you have 70%+ crit.

As a magicka sorc I disagree, with 64% spell crit and 3.5k spell dmg I can reliably heal myself with Power Surge in vMA. The only reason why I can rely on the small surge heals is because Hardened Ward gives a dmg 25k shield and Harness Magicka gives a 18k spell shield. For pve its perfectly fine, especially during boss fights when overloads crits for 35k.

For pvp the surge heals are way too small and unreliable to heal yourself consistently.