Upcoming Class Rebalance

WreckfulAbandon

To my understanding ZOS is planning a major class rebalance/overhaul sometime in early 2016. There are a ton of threads floating around discussing this or that aspect of PvP that have plenty of merit, but I would like to consolidate the discussion for the benefit of all (and ZOS ) so let's do that. This is a discussion for the PvP aspects of the game, but feel free to chime in if any of the proposed changes/tweaks would adversely affect PvE to a great extent. This discussion should be in the best interest of PvPers to promote a more balanced battlefield in Cyrodiil but not at the expense of the PvE content most of us participate in as well.

1) Harness Magicka should not stack with Hardened Ward. Period. I shouldn't have to explain why at this point.

2) Any and every ability should take the user out of stealth/Cloak. Yes, this includes Vigor, Camo Hunter, Rally, etc.

3) Surprise Attack should at the very minimum lose its built in armor debuff, it is too stupid OP atm.

4) Dragon Blood should actually heal the 33% of missing health it says it does. No brainer.

5) If we must have AoE caps, Barrier and Purge need to be subject to them as well.

6) For the love of Talos, can Toppling Charge please work every time?

7) Ambush should not be locking ppl out of using abilities.

8) Overload needs a rehaul. I know the argument, "blah blah toggles," but in reality the 3rd bar is used as a dedicated utility bar by any competent sorc in PvP. My Templar would like an extra utility bar too but that wouldn't be fair.

9) Eclipse should not be limited to one target if it is CC breakable.

10) Camo Hunter should not proc the stealth bonus more than once. Period. If more calculations are necessary to make this happen then so be it.

11) Molten Weapons could use a slight duration buff.

12) Healing Ward, many of you will argue, is OP and needs nerfed, but I view it as a good tool to use against that OP stamina damage that is running rampant in Cyrodiil. I'm sure this will warrant further discussion.

13) Please look into making Templar ultimates more worthwhile in PvP.

14) DK whip needs a slight damage buff, it really is pathetic.

15) If you're a vamp/werewolf, you shouldn't need a skill slotted to enjoy the perks thereof, cause DB will still wreck you without it.

16) DK Chains should be less random.

17) I dunno about everyone else, but I don't think immovable potions should be a thing.

I was on vacation for a bit so haven't played much lately, this is what I could think of off the top of my head. I play all classes and have no hidden agenda. I'm doing this so that we can have 4 balanced classes that each are effective in their own way while still being competitive vs the other 3 classes. And for the record, I am strongly against any Cloak/Hardened Ward nerfs. These abilities have powerful synergies with other abilities and that it what needs to be looked at, not the abilities themselves.

I'm sure I missed some things and I'm sure some of these points some ppl will disagree with, but not a bad starting point IMO.

Corellon Thromorin

We should compile the threads ZOS should ignore. Let's start with this one on the list.

Bashev

Corellon Thromorin wrote: »

We should compile the threads ZOS should ignore. Let's start with this one on the list.

And why ZoS should ignore this thread? According to me 80-90% from OP's list is correct.

Rayste

Bashev wrote: »

Corellon Thromorin wrote: »

We should compile the threads ZOS should ignore. Let's start with this one on the list.

And why ZoS should ignore this thread? According to me 80-90% from OP's list is correct.

Agree, that all sounds fairly reasonable and are concerns that have come up recently.

Angarato

i wouldnt mind if suprise attack got the same stealth speed bonus as concealed. i get my major breach from piercing mark anyway

Makkir

Rayste wrote: »

12) Healing Ward, many of you will argue, is OP and needs nerfed, but I view it as a good tool to use against that OP stamina damage that is running rampant in Cyrodiil. I'm sure this will warrant further discussion.

No.

Currently sorcs do not have any class heals. You ruin Healing Ward and suddenly sorcs wont be taken into vet groups to heal.

Healing Ward is THE staple heal for any Sorc that is healing in PvE.

DannyLV702

I agree with all, except 17.

ostrapz

Sounds good on pretty much every point. I dont think major fracture whould be removed, maybe moved to minor on suprise attack.

ostrapz

Also , pvp talk from zos on twitch stream tomorow

WreckfulAbandon

Makkir wrote: »

Rayste wrote: »

12) Healing Ward, many of you will argue, is OP and needs nerfed, but I view it as a good tool to use against that OP stamina damage that is running rampant in Cyrodiil. I'm sure this will warrant further discussion.

No.

Currently sorcs do not have any class heals. You ruin Healing Ward and suddenly sorcs wont be taken into vet groups to heal.

Healing Ward is THE staple heal for any Sorc that is healing in PvE.

My NB healer agrees, I personally am ok with how it works currently. Harness on the other hand....

Corellon Thromorin wrote: »

We should compile the threads ZOS should ignore. Let's start with this one on the list.

dday3six

DK and to a much lesser extent Templar need to be looked at.p, and updated first. Once they are, and the dust has settles. Then, if needed, Sorc and NB should be re-evaluated. Asking for nerfs to either NB or Sorc before DK and Templar have had their issues addressed is asking that they be balanced against something that as we know is already unbalanced.

FriedEggSandwich

On point op, agree with everything. As a sorc my biggest wish is that they prevent harness from stacking on hardened. I would also like it if battle spirit wasn't all that came between pvp and pve; that is to say why can't they adjust skills independently? Why does an overload nerf in pvp have to mean an overload nerf in pve? Just chose that as an example.

LegacyDM

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

To my understanding ZOS is planning a major class rebalance/overhaul sometime in early 2016.

Source?

blur

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

To my understanding ZOS is planning a major class rebalance/overhaul sometime in early 2016. There are a ton of threads floating around discussing this or that aspect of PvP that have plenty of merit, but I would like to consolidate the discussion for the benefit of all (and ZOS ) so let's do that.

Another terrible thread with horrible bias.

Why don't you just be brief and direct? Say what you really mean: Nerf Nightblades, Nerf Sorcs, buff DKs and Templars.
See? Not difficult. You think ZOS has no idea what has been posted over and over for the past year on these forums? Did you think you would squeak this buy like a tiny fart hoping nobody would smell the stink?

Emma_Overload

TL;DR for this thread: Nerf Sorcs, buff Templars....

Nice try!

WreckfulAbandon

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

To my understanding ZOS is planning a major class rebalance/overhaul sometime in early 2016.

Source?

I believe it was announced that there would be a major class rebalance included with the first major DLC in 2016 (Thieve's Guild)

I'll do some digging tomorrow and try to peg down the exact source.

dday3six wrote: »

DK and to a much lesser extent Templar need to be looked at.p, and updated first. Once they are, and the dust has settles. Then, if needed, Sorc and NB should be re-evaluated. Asking for nerfs to either NB or Sorc before DK and Templar have had their issues addressed is asking that they be balanced against something that as we know is already unbalanced.

At the very least some of the aforementioned synergies that led to the mass QQ against abilities like Cloak and Hardened could be addressed without ruining the class, amirite?

Some of the ppl complaining about Hardened probably don't fully appreciate that it's Harness that is allowing the sorc to shrug off all their damage.

Ditto with some of the Cloak whiners, the current mechanics allow NB's to do too much while Cloaked. In the other Elder Scrolls games doing anything while invisible took you out of it, so why should players in an MMO get to buff and heal while invisible? It seems like a commonsense change to me and it would actually take the heat off of Cloak (coincidentally most of the heat is already off Cloak as ppl realized it was only in IC that Cloak by itself could be considered really powerful)

blur wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

To my understanding ZOS is planning a major class rebalance/overhaul sometime in early 2016. There are a ton of threads floating around discussing this or that aspect of PvP that have plenty of merit, but I would like to consolidate the discussion for the benefit of all (and ZOS ) so let's do that.

Another terrible thread with horrible bias.

Why don't you just be brief and direct? Say what you really mean: Nerf Nightblades, Nerf Sorcs, buff DKs and Templars.
See? Not difficult. You think ZOS has no idea what has been posted over and over for the past year on these forums? Did you think you would squeak this buy like a tiny fart hoping nobody would smell the stink?

I want to know the name of the person who agreed with this tripe.

I'm trying to facilitate a discussion about balance and all you can do is knock it on the (mistaken) belief that I'm gunning for NB's and sorcs?

Sorcerers shrugging off all magic damage while specced for max damage is unbalanced, that should be pretty universally accepted. You should have to make sacrifices to be that tanky, the fact that they can do it while speccing for full burst is asinine. It's Harness Magicka that allows them to do it, so not really a sorc nerf is it?

As for NB's, I don't think they should be able to use abilities and remain cloaked. Call it what you will but I consider it more of a change in the mechanics of the game because I don't think any class should be able to remain undetected while using abilities.

If you want to join the discussion please do so but, just warning you beforehand, we're talking specifics here, I would never just say "nerf NB" or "nerf sorc," it's about finding the underlying concerns to why things are the way they are (unbalanced and a bit cheesy).

WreckfulAbandon

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

TL;DR for this thread: Nerf Sorcs, buff Templars....

Nice try!

This is why we can't have nice things... If you don't read stuff then what do you really know?

Kutsuu

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

TL;DR for this thread: Nerf Sorcs, buff Templars....

Nice try!

Close, but it's fairly obvious the OP plays a DK.

My hope is that ZOS can, for once, use moderation and incremental changes to adjust balance instead of continuing to pander to the loudest complainers on these forums and reddit. Balance shouldn't be based on biased anecdotal feedback... I mean look what it's turned this game into thus far.

WreckfulAbandon

Can we get some experienced PvPers in here to weigh in on these proposed changes and perhaps add to the conversation without dismissing everything offhand?

@Sypher
@FENGRUSH
@Joy_Division
@Akinos
@ChannelTribes
@Rylana
@Alcast
@Zavus
@Mythk
@Crown
@sabresandiego_ESO
@Derra
@Ezareth
@Satiar
@Teargrants
@WRX

Obviously I missed some ppl but if half of you provide your input this thread will be better for it. I've seen some of you in the forums talking sense, seen some vids, fought against others, fought with others still, hell I even summoned my brother here.

Let's turn this discussion up to 11.

Satiar

I'll try to post something comprehensive tonight or tomorrow, thank you for hosting this.

blur

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

I want to know the name of the person who agreed with this tripe.

I'm trying to facilitate a discussion about balance and all you can do is knock it on the (mistaken) belief that I'm gunning for NB's and sorcs?

Sorcerers shrugging off all magic damage while specced for max damage is unbalanced, that should be pretty universally accepted. You should have to make sacrifices to be that tanky, the fact that they can do it while speccing for full burst is asinine. It's Harness Magicka that allows them to do it, so not really a sorc nerf is it?

As for NB's, I don't think they should be able to use abilities and remain cloaked. Call it what you will but I consider it more of a change in the mechanics of the game because I don't think any class should be able to remain undetected while using abilities.

If you want to join the discussion please do so but, just warning you beforehand, we're talking specifics here, I would never just say "nerf NB" or "nerf sorc," it's about finding the underlying concerns to why things are the way they are (unbalanced and a bit cheesy).

If you were trying to facilitate a discussion about balance you would not have listed the things you did, let alone in the manner you did them.

Sorcerers don't shrug off all magicka damage while specced for max damage. That is utter horseshit.
You talk to me about sacrifice for being tanky? *** DKs can tank and spank just about anything in the game when built/itemized properly.

Oh you don't think NBs should be able to do anything while cloaked?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c

You want to talk to me as if you are searching for balance and are some type of paragon of objectivity yet speak about the outright gutting of stamina NBs and a major nerf to Magicka as well. You might convince others, but I am not fooled. For the record asking for DK and Templar buffs (particularly to abilities that are already out of control) while asking for the destruction of Nightblades is neither searching for balance nor being objective. You can dress it up however you like, but you can only polish a turd so much. Yes let's buff whip... DKs need to be completely unstoppable. While we are at it, let's make MA last forever, it's not like you can't two-shot players with heavy attacks... oh wait, yes, yes you can.

You want to get to the bottoms of things and find the "underlying concerns?" How about you stop parroting the whining bandwagon? How about we hold ZOS accountable and get them to fix this buggy ass game instead of constantly moving forward and making an even deeper hole and bigger mess? It's been almost 2 years and they still have not fixed several issues that go back to the beta, things I wrote essays on while reporting everything I could.

In fact, the only thing with merit in your original post was a possible fix to templar charge which has been bugged for over 2 years (YES ZOS ITS BEEN BUGGED SINCE 2013 AND YOU ARE JUST NOW TELLING US IT MIGHT BE FIXED IN THE THIEVES GUILD DLC... WOW...). Everything else is quite the obvious bias and hardly objective let alone facilitating a discussion about balance.

Gilvoth

Corellon Thromorin wrote: »

We should compile the threads ZOS should ignore. Let's start with this one on the list.

i agree with you

Rylana

1) Harness Magicka should not stack with Hardened Ward. Period. I shouldn't have to explain why at this point.

- Harness should only work vs magic damage, provide the same size shield it does now, and not stack. Dampen should be a smaller shield but also apply to physical damage and also not be able to stack.

2) Any and every ability should take the user out of stealth/Cloak. Yes, this includes Vigor, Camo Hunter, Rally, etc.

-Agreed

3) Surprise Attack should at the very minimum lose its built in armor debuff, it is too stupid OP atm.

-The armor debuff is fine, the stunlock needs addressed

4) Dragon Blood should actually heal the 33% of missing health it says it does. No brainer.

- Agreed

5) If we must have AoE caps, Barrier and Purge need to be subject to them as well.

- Agreed

6) For the love of Talos, can Toppling Charge please work every time?

- For the love of Sheogorath, agreed.

7) Ambush should not be locking ppl out of using abilities.

- Ambush should have a minimum range, like invasion.

8) Overload needs a rehaul. I know the argument, "blah blah toggles," but in reality the 3rd bar is used as a dedicated utility bar by any competent sorc in PvP. My Templar would like an extra utility bar too but that wouldn't be fair.

- Nothing from the third bar should carry over or sustain duration if the ultimate is switched off.

9) Eclipse should not be limited to one target if it is CC breakable.

- Agreed

10) Camo Hunter should not proc the stealth bonus more than once. Period. If more calculations are necessary to make this happen then so be it.

- Agreed, also fix the doubleproc exploit
-
11) Molten Weapons could use a slight duration buff.

- Agreed

12) Healing Ward, many of you will argue, is OP and needs nerfed, but I view it as a good tool to use against that OP stamina damage that is running rampant in Cyrodiil. I'm sure this will warrant further discussion.

- Healing ward needs to obey line of sight rules, be the first priority shield hit, and have a higher cost

13) Please look into making Templar ultimates more worthwhile in PvP.

- Only the Aedric Spear ultimate really needs help. Its a low cost like soul harvest but does less than half the damage.

14) DK whip needs a slight damage buff, it really is pathetic.

- Agreed, and a stamina morph

15) If you're a vamp/werewolf, you shouldn't need a skill slotted to enjoy the perks thereof, cause DB will still wreck you without it.

- As long as Vampire requires it, so should WW

16) DK Chains should be less random.

- DK chains should be reverted to work like they did in 1.1

17) I dunno about everyone else, but I don't think immovable potions should be a thing.

- Disagree, immovability is a good thing, it has a 33 percent uptime at best, so there is balance built in.

WreckfulAbandon

blur wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

I want to know the name of the person who agreed with this tripe.

I'm trying to facilitate a discussion about balance and all you can do is knock it on the (mistaken) belief that I'm gunning for NB's and sorcs?

Sorcerers shrugging off all magic damage while specced for max damage is unbalanced, that should be pretty universally accepted. You should have to make sacrifices to be that tanky, the fact that they can do it while speccing for full burst is asinine. It's Harness Magicka that allows them to do it, so not really a sorc nerf is it?

As for NB's, I don't think they should be able to use abilities and remain cloaked. Call it what you will but I consider it more of a change in the mechanics of the game because I don't think any class should be able to remain undetected while using abilities.

If you want to join the discussion please do so but, just warning you beforehand, we're talking specifics here, I would never just say "nerf NB" or "nerf sorc," it's about finding the underlying concerns to why things are the way they are (unbalanced and a bit cheesy).

If you were trying to facilitate a discussion about balance you would not have listed the things you did, let alone in the manner you did them.

Sorcerers don't shrug off all magicka damage while specced for max damage. That is utter horseshit.
You talk to me about sacrifice for being tanky? *** DKs can tank and spank just about anything in the game when built/itemized properly.

Oh you don't think NBs should be able to do anything while cloaked?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c

You want to talk to me as if you are searching for balance and are some type of paragon of objectivity yet speak about the outright gutting of stamina NBs and a major nerf to Magicka as well. You might convince others, but I am not fooled. For the record asking for DK and Templar buffs (particularly to abilities that are already out of control) while asking for the destruction of Nightblades is neither searching for balance nor being objective. You can dress it up however you like, but you can only polish a turd so much. Yes let's buff whip... DKs need to be completely unstoppable. While we are at it, let's make MA last forever, it's not like you can't two-shot players with heavy attacks... oh wait, yes, yes you can.

You want to get to the bottoms of things and find the "underlying concerns?" How about you stop parroting the whining bandwagon? How about we hold ZOS accountable and get them to fix this buggy ass game instead of constantly moving forward and making an even deeper hole and bigger mess? It's been almost 2 years and they still have not fixed several issues that go back to the beta, things I wrote essays on while reporting everything I could.

In fact, the only thing with merit in your original post was a possible fix to templar charge which has been bugged for over 2 years (YES ZOS ITS BEEN BUGGED SINCE 2013 AND YOU ARE JUST NOW TELLING US IT MIGHT BE FIXED IN THE THIEVES GUILD DLC... WOW...). Everything else is quite the obvious bias and hardly objective let alone facilitating a discussion about balance.

You think I consider the points I raised as the only valuable talking points in a discussion about class balance? My points were a springboard, I wanted to hear other ppl's thoughts on this issue as I'm fairly certain a MAJOR class rebalance is in the works. And for the record NB is my favorite class and I would not want to see it "gutted" in any way.

If you disagree so strongly, please take the time to refute as many of my points as you see fit to/have time to. I'm not going to waste any more time with this back and forth, I'm here to try and get something approaching a consensus on class balance. I gave my opinion, I would love to hear yours, and everyone who knows what they're talking about concerning PvP.

blur

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

blur wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

I want to know the name of the person who agreed with this tripe.

I'm trying to facilitate a discussion about balance and all you can do is knock it on the (mistaken) belief that I'm gunning for NB's and sorcs?

Sorcerers shrugging off all magic damage while specced for max damage is unbalanced, that should be pretty universally accepted. You should have to make sacrifices to be that tanky, the fact that they can do it while speccing for full burst is asinine. It's Harness Magicka that allows them to do it, so not really a sorc nerf is it?

As for NB's, I don't think they should be able to use abilities and remain cloaked. Call it what you will but I consider it more of a change in the mechanics of the game because I don't think any class should be able to remain undetected while using abilities.

If you want to join the discussion please do so but, just warning you beforehand, we're talking specifics here, I would never just say "nerf NB" or "nerf sorc," it's about finding the underlying concerns to why things are the way they are (unbalanced and a bit cheesy).

If you were trying to facilitate a discussion about balance you would not have listed the things you did, let alone in the manner you did them.

Sorcerers don't shrug off all magicka damage while specced for max damage. That is utter horseshit.
You talk to me about sacrifice for being tanky? *** DKs can tank and spank just about anything in the game when built/itemized properly.

Oh you don't think NBs should be able to do anything while cloaked?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c

You want to talk to me as if you are searching for balance and are some type of paragon of objectivity yet speak about the outright gutting of stamina NBs and a major nerf to Magicka as well. You might convince others, but I am not fooled. For the record asking for DK and Templar buffs (particularly to abilities that are already out of control) while asking for the destruction of Nightblades is neither searching for balance nor being objective. You can dress it up however you like, but you can only polish a turd so much. Yes let's buff whip... DKs need to be completely unstoppable. While we are at it, let's make MA last forever, it's not like you can't two-shot players with heavy attacks... oh wait, yes, yes you can.

You want to get to the bottoms of things and find the "underlying concerns?" How about you stop parroting the whining bandwagon? How about we hold ZOS accountable and get them to fix this buggy ass game instead of constantly moving forward and making an even deeper hole and bigger mess? It's been almost 2 years and they still have not fixed several issues that go back to the beta, things I wrote essays on while reporting everything I could.

In fact, the only thing with merit in your original post was a possible fix to templar charge which has been bugged for over 2 years (YES ZOS ITS BEEN BUGGED SINCE 2013 AND YOU ARE JUST NOW TELLING US IT MIGHT BE FIXED IN THE THIEVES GUILD DLC... WOW...). Everything else is quite the obvious bias and hardly objective let alone facilitating a discussion about balance.

You think I consider the points I raised as the only valuable talking points in a discussion about class balance? My points were a springboard, I wanted to hear other ppl's thoughts on this issue as I'm fairly certain a MAJOR class rebalance is in the works. And for the record NB is my favorite class and I would not want to see it "gutted" in any way.

If you disagree so strongly, please take the time to refute as many of my points as you see fit to/have time to. I'm not going to waste any more time with this back and forth, I'm here to try and get something approaching a consensus on class balance. I gave my opinion, I would love to hear yours, and everyone who knows what they're talking about concerning PvP.

The fact of the matter is you stated your view under the guise of balance and searching for truth. In fact just about everything regarding the NB, Sorc, and DK you mentioned has been beaten to death for over a year. If you took the time to do any research at all you would see tons of experienced players giving their opinion on the matter. It doesn't matter what people say when they disagree with NB/Sorc nerfs. People plug their ears and ignore you. You think this is the first time this topic has been breached? Again, if you cared enough about this topic you would not make a clone thread that's been done to death and just researched the matter yourself and seen both sides. Call it what you like, but this is nothing more than the typical parroting of bias.

For the record I am a Templar and Stam Sorc. I don't even have a Nightblade.

WreckfulAbandon

blur wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

blur wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

I want to know the name of the person who agreed with this tripe.

I'm trying to facilitate a discussion about balance and all you can do is knock it on the (mistaken) belief that I'm gunning for NB's and sorcs?

Sorcerers shrugging off all magic damage while specced for max damage is unbalanced, that should be pretty universally accepted. You should have to make sacrifices to be that tanky, the fact that they can do it while speccing for full burst is asinine. It's Harness Magicka that allows them to do it, so not really a sorc nerf is it?

As for NB's, I don't think they should be able to use abilities and remain cloaked. Call it what you will but I consider it more of a change in the mechanics of the game because I don't think any class should be able to remain undetected while using abilities.

If you want to join the discussion please do so but, just warning you beforehand, we're talking specifics here, I would never just say "nerf NB" or "nerf sorc," it's about finding the underlying concerns to why things are the way they are (unbalanced and a bit cheesy).

If you were trying to facilitate a discussion about balance you would not have listed the things you did, let alone in the manner you did them.

Sorcerers don't shrug off all magicka damage while specced for max damage. That is utter horseshit.
You talk to me about sacrifice for being tanky? *** DKs can tank and spank just about anything in the game when built/itemized properly.

Oh you don't think NBs should be able to do anything while cloaked?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c

You want to talk to me as if you are searching for balance and are some type of paragon of objectivity yet speak about the outright gutting of stamina NBs and a major nerf to Magicka as well. You might convince others, but I am not fooled. For the record asking for DK and Templar buffs (particularly to abilities that are already out of control) while asking for the destruction of Nightblades is neither searching for balance nor being objective. You can dress it up however you like, but you can only polish a turd so much. Yes let's buff whip... DKs need to be completely unstoppable. While we are at it, let's make MA last forever, it's not like you can't two-shot players with heavy attacks... oh wait, yes, yes you can.

You want to get to the bottoms of things and find the "underlying concerns?" How about you stop parroting the whining bandwagon? How about we hold ZOS accountable and get them to fix this buggy ass game instead of constantly moving forward and making an even deeper hole and bigger mess? It's been almost 2 years and they still have not fixed several issues that go back to the beta, things I wrote essays on while reporting everything I could.

In fact, the only thing with merit in your original post was a possible fix to templar charge which has been bugged for over 2 years (YES ZOS ITS BEEN BUGGED SINCE 2013 AND YOU ARE JUST NOW TELLING US IT MIGHT BE FIXED IN THE THIEVES GUILD DLC... WOW...). Everything else is quite the obvious bias and hardly objective let alone facilitating a discussion about balance.

You think I consider the points I raised as the only valuable talking points in a discussion about class balance? My points were a springboard, I wanted to hear other ppl's thoughts on this issue as I'm fairly certain a MAJOR class rebalance is in the works. And for the record NB is my favorite class and I would not want to see it "gutted" in any way.

If you disagree so strongly, please take the time to refute as many of my points as you see fit to/have time to. I'm not going to waste any more time with this back and forth, I'm here to try and get something approaching a consensus on class balance. I gave my opinion, I would love to hear yours, and everyone who knows what they're talking about concerning PvP.

The fact of the matter is you stated your view under the guise of balance and searching for truth. In fact just about everything regarding the NB, Sorc, and DK you mentioned has been beaten to death for over a year. If you took the time to do any research at all you would see tons of experienced players giving their opinion on the matter. It doesn't matter what people say when they disagree with NB/Sorc nerfs. People plug their ears and ignore you. You think this is the first time this topic has been breached? Again, if you cared enough about this topic you would not make a clone thread that's been done to death and just researched the matter yourself and seen both sides. Call it what you like, but this is nothing more than the typical parroting of bias.

For the record I am a Templar and Stam Sorc. I don't even have a Nightblade.

I know I said I was done with this...

I called plenty of experienced players to come weigh in here so I ain't scurred. I did my homework, I PvP enough to know what I'm talking about. You are trying to tell me what I am really trying to say.

I stated in the intro that this is merely a consolidation thread that (I hope) will see plenty of different players who understand class balance come in here and give their opinion. Everything here has been discussed before, I wanted it to be in one nice package for ZOS when they consider which abilities to buff/nerf. Of course we won't all see eye to eye, but the main thing is that experienced PvPers will be giving their input on something that matters to all of us, class balance.

By the way you can look at my post history, you'll find some experienced players agreeing with me from time to time, please stop telling me what I'm really trying to say and just look at what I'm actually saying? I don't want Lava Whip to hit for 10k but it is laughable as is, which is why I used the word "slight." The only thing you could call me a crusader about would be sorcs stacking Hardened and Harness, my bias against that is clear as night and day.

Mythk

If you are going to summon me, I would like to be summoned under the guise of :
"@Mythk, the renowned and feared Germantrocity"

1. Cloak needs a rework so no abilities can be used while staying stealthed. Simple as that.

2. Harness magicka and hardened ward should be able to stack, however, harness magicka should never return more than its magicka cost to the user.

3. Surprise attack can keep its armor debuff, but other direct damage abilities should be looked into to deal damage that is more on par with surprise attack.

4. As far as DK whip goes, I think it should scale more steeply with spell damage, making it do much more damage with lower spell damage, but dropping off on damage at the higher numbers, like a diminishing returns effect. DK DPS in PvE is already pretty insane (I can pull 30k+ on my DK with roughly 350 CP) which is why I think this needs to be tweaked very carefully.

5. Fix toppling charge definitely, as well as eclipse being able to be cast on multiple targets.

6. DK dragon blood is a joke, it says 33%. Make it heal for 33%.

7. Honestly, just buff up DK and tweak the other classes slightly so that everything is on par with each other.



All my points are just my opinion that I'd like to add to the discussion.

There is no nerf NB and sorc conspriacy, everything should be buffed or tweaked equally so that it is on par with each other AND working as intended.

Ok, serious pants coming off now.

WreckfulAbandon

Mythk wrote: »

If you are going to summon me, I would like to be summoned under the guise of :
"@Mythk, the renowned and feared Germantrocity"

1. Cloak needs a rework so no abilities can be used while staying stealthed. Simple as that.

2. Harness magicka and hardened ward should be able to stack, however, harness magicka should never return more than its magicka cost to the user.

3. Surprise attack can keep its armor debuff, but other direct damage abilities should be looked into to deal damage that is more on par with surprise attack.

4. As far as DK whip goes, I think it should scale more steeply with spell damage, making it do much more damage with lower spell damage, but dropping off on damage at the higher numbers, like a diminishing returns effect. DK DPS in PvE is already pretty insane (I can pull 30k+ on my DK with roughly 350 CP) which is why I think this needs to be tweaked very carefully.

5. Fix toppling charge definitely, as well as eclipse being able to be cast on multiple targets.

6. DK dragon blood is a joke, it says 33%. Make it heal for 33%.

7. Honestly, just buff up DK and tweak the other classes slightly so that everything is on par with each other.



All my points are just my opinion that I'd like to add to the discussion.

There is no nerf NB and sorc conspriacy, everything should be buffed or tweaked equally so that it is on par with each other AND working as intended.

Ok, serious pants coming off now.

Thanks for the contribution.

And don't mind that noise, it's just the sound of my teeth grinding at your second point...

It's not even that I'm against shield stacking (it's not my favorite mechanic though) but the dreaded triple sorc shield of trololo is really making my magicka users wish they could explore outer space too.

Ezareth

I'll point out the things of most interest to me.

Harness magicka shouldn't stack with Hardened. Being able to prebuff your hitpoints with 2 different shields that last 20+ seconds is too strong.

The fact Harness currently gives you magicka is just something else entirely that needs addressed.

I don't believe abilities should take you out of stealth but I can get behind to abilities pulling you out of cloak. If you're going to stealth attack something you need the ability to self-buff yourself.

Surprise attack I feel is balanced where it is. Proccing shadow barrier is a nice bonus but not OP.

Agree on GDB and whip.

AoE caps are it's own discussion.

Ministun should just be removed from ambush or the stun from gap closers needs removed. One or the other. Either way ambush should definitely take you out of invis and it doesn't.

I think the heal on healing ward should be slightly buffed and the shield value should be slightly nerfed. That is the best way to balance it without nerfing too hard. The primary difference is sorcs (only class running 100 bastion) will benefit less from it and it.

Immovable pots are fine, they have an opportunity cost and choosing the right pot use is often the difference between life and death.

Eclipse I agree should be able to be cast on multiple targets, but I don't see them making a reversal on that one.

Personally I think Overload is fine. The third bar has some utility but it is absolutely needed since you lose access to all of your weapon skills and your weapon passives when you're in overload mode. I over load is the last thing that makes sorc fun for me to play because it gives you a form of complicated combat rotation of weapon swapping and critting.

If there weren't so many counters to it I'd say the damage could be toned down but to be honest it's the wrecking blow of Magick damage. The counters exist and its one wing flap or defensive posture/eclipse from killing the sorc using it.

Johngo0036

I agree with all except 2.

Also i feel that the stamina drain is a little to high when blocking of dodge rolling,

You missed,
Dark cloak or any morphs should be exponentially more expensive, Just like streak...
It is unfair that one mobility/get away skill is penalized while another remains unpenalized for over usage..

DaveMoeDee

The Vamp/WW suggestion is poorly thought out.

Vamp should get buffs so long as they also have debuffs, like with fire damage. Since vamps always have certain debuffs, there is nothing wrong with them also always having buffs, regardless of what is slotted.

This is not the case for WW. I say this as someone who has multiple magicka characters that are still WW from back when it was a no cost stam regen boost. That was unacceptable design, though all my higher level characters are still werewolves since there was no reason to get cured.

If you don't want to require slotting a WW ability to get the buff, than there needs to be some sort of debuff that WW always have, even when not in WW form. We can't go back to giving free buffs to WW with zero cost.