Upcoming Class Rebalance

bardx86

Ok every class has CC, CC break, Vigor, can have passive dodge with Evasion, dunno what "continued dodge roll" even means, all stamina classes can do that.

NB's have high burst and fear, that's probably what you really meant, right? Well they also are a high risk, high reward class, they have to get in close to get their kills and as most competent players know, they are usually quite squishy and fold pretty fast if their burst fails.[/quote]

Not Every class can can use vigor, CC break indefinitely, and dodge role forever. That is innate to the Stam Classes, which we agree on. How is being able to spam vigor while avoiding 75% of damage have any risk involved? A well played NB's doesn't need cloak. Run around rock for 2 sec and full health. Personally I think most are being to myopic on shield stack and not looking at the bigger picture.

bardx86

Essiaga wrote: »

Johngo0036 wrote: »

I agree with all except 2.

Also i feel that the stamina drain is a little to high when blocking of dodge rolling,

You missed,
Dark cloak or any morphs should be exponentially more expensive, Just like streak...
It is unfair that one mobility/get away skill is penalized while another remains unpenalized for over usage..

I don't think Dark Cloak should get the Dodge Roll/Streak Treatment. There just needs to be more counters to it. In most games DoTs keep stealth class from dropping into stealth. In ESO Cloak negates DoTs. NB have the only in class anti-stealth skill. I think Templars Backlash should also work like Mark Target.

Also when you strike someone in real life, even with your eyes closed, you know you struck it. Cloaked targets should blink red when struck. Not their whole body but maybe a little red dot where they weapon impacted. If you hit them with a projectile the projectile would impact and stop or something. There needs to be a tell when you are striking a Cloaked enemy.

My recommended change to Cloak ...
No long removes DoTs but increases stealth speed while slotted. Remove that buff from Concealed Weapon and replace with Breech (Spell Resistance debuff) ... and Mark Target can lose Fracture and Breech as it already does so many things and Sneak Attack already gives Fracture.

If people feel Marked Target would be to weak then give it Stam regen for each attack against the target. Kinda like an Elemental Drain only for stamina. It would give NB more utility in groups

More speed for NB's? No just NO dude! I can already see 1/2 this message board salivating over that one, lol.

CP5

Essiaga wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Makkir wrote: »

Rayste wrote: »

12) Healing Ward, many of you will argue, is OP and needs nerfed, but I view it as a good tool to use against that OP stamina damage that is running rampant in Cyrodiil. I'm sure this will warrant further discussion.

No.

Currently sorcs do not have any class heals. You ruin Healing Ward and suddenly sorcs wont be taken into vet groups to heal.

Healing Ward is THE staple heal for any Sorc that is healing in PvE.

My NB healer agrees, I personally am ok with how it works currently. Harness on the other hand....

Corellon Thromorin wrote: »

We should compile the threads ZOS should ignore. Let's start with this one on the list.

The issue with Healing Ward and Harness is Sorc's Hardened Ward. If Hardened Ward wasn't so high by it's self (3x larger then they next magicka class shield due to all other shields being based on health) then shield stacking wouldn't be an issue as no one cares when other classes do it.

I posted a few times about a Major/Minor Shield buff (an idea borrowed from another forum poster which I'm sorry i won't be able to properly credit) that would bring all shields in line. Major Shield would 20% and Minor 10% of either magicka or health, whichever is higher. Being that there are only 2 buffs you could never stack more then 2 shields and never for more then 30% max magicka or health. All class shields would be Major Shield Buff. All non-class would be Minor.

Healing Ward - I think all classes besides Templar should get a passive that increases the shield on ally by 50%. This would mean they would give essentially a 15% shield to the ally. This would help to bridge the gap between Templar and other classes playing the healer role, though of course there will still be a gap.

Also Sorc's do have class heals in Surge, Blood Magic, and Dark Exchange. They have access to Consuming Trap, Blood Alter, Energy Orb, Cleanse, and any abilities in Restorations staff Tree, including Blessing of Protection which some use over Healing Ward and can heal as strong as Breath of Life.

Sorc's also have other defensive skills such as Bolt Escape, Lightning Form which grants Expedition, Conjured Ward, and a bunch of CCs that also allow them to control or escape fight. They also have monster DPS compared to other magicka builds.

Over all I think the only legit complaint about the Sorc is they have Burst DPS over sustain DPS but that's the reason people play Sorcs over the other magicka classes. They lack the weaknesses other classes have due to Ward being such a large shield. That is easily overcome with use of Destruction staff, but the issue is that Sorcs want their cake and ice cream and cookies and pie and want it all with in the class so as to not sacrifice Spell damage for utility. So on the DPS bar they would need Force Shock, and on the defensive/buff bar they need a Resto ability. They'll lose 2% spell damage on each bar by going outside of their tree and more by not using Duel Wield. I would suggest a Crystal Shards morph that would basically be Force Shock. It would not have the burst damage that CF has but I don't think anyone that PVPs will morph away from CF.

They are low risk, high reward where as the other classes have a good bit of risk compared to reward as they can not escape or depend on shield that is based on health and screwed by Battle Spirit in PVP. Many other magicka builds are using Sword and Shield and stamina abilities such as Evasion to make up for their lack of mitigation and mobility.

Healing Ward is the best shields a Magicka NB has as they do not have a class shield. While NB have some quality self heals and mobility they're stuck being a stealthier class to survive (as they should) where as a Sorc will dance around taunting enemies to exploit the situation. They don't have to run away or escape. They can Stand and Fight or Bolt Away or Nuke.

In short nerf sorc's shields buff other classes shields a bit and shields stacking wan't matter much.

Surge, so RNG with some more RNG? Need to have a crit, and have it be a strong crit, against a non-shielded non-blocking target. Wouldn't call that reliable.

Blood Magic, 8%, sorry, 4% max health heal tied to expensive skills that demand large magicka pools to be useful. And what skill should a sorc use to reliably proc this passive? Hard cast frags?

Dark Exchange, i've seen some say otherwise but this slow clunky 'heal' takes to long and does far to little in my opinion.

Consuming Trap, need to kill the target, and honestly how many people do you see using this skill anywhere aside from filling soul gems?

Blood Alter, only provides the health regen major buff to the caster as they can't ever use the synergy.

Energy Orb, Cleanse, not that fond of chasing the orbs around for heals but I guess restricting yourself to its movement to get heals can't be that bad.

Restorations staff, most known for the healing ward spam which is a very strong shield and I wouldn't really Blessing of Protection spam should be what a class relies on for staying alive, its bad enough saying 'x class must use y'.

I'll also add two heals you missed, the Clannfear and Twilight. The clannfear is a pet that zos turned into a sacrificial decoy, sure provides a heal but why even have it as a pet if that's the intent (also that 'change' came with a cast time for the whole skill), and the twilight's heal is a channel that only procs at low health that damages the twilight as it cast it with a 30s cooldown and it is on a pet that is already fond enough of killing itself.

Honestly you're underplaying harness magicka and healing ward, so if sorcs didn't need to rely on spamming shields to survive then by all means change how they work, but i'm not seeing alternatives in these kind of threads, only revenge nerfing.

DHale

I am glad zos only reads a little of this crud you put on the forum. I love ppl making recommendations on classes they don't even play. Many of the classes we both play I completely disagree with many of the posters. Why doesn't zos just make one class and you get one single target and one aoe skill that's... it then we can just all be the meta... Run around and pew pew. Great can't wait for that update.

Anzriel

CP5 wrote: »

Essiaga wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Makkir wrote: »

Rayste wrote: »

12) Healing Ward, many of you will argue, is OP and needs nerfed, but I view it as a good tool to use against that OP stamina damage that is running rampant in Cyrodiil. I'm sure this will warrant further discussion.

No.

Currently sorcs do not have any class heals. You ruin Healing Ward and suddenly sorcs wont be taken into vet groups to heal.

Healing Ward is THE staple heal for any Sorc that is healing in PvE.

My NB healer agrees, I personally am ok with how it works currently. Harness on the other hand....

Corellon Thromorin wrote: »

We should compile the threads ZOS should ignore. Let's start with this one on the list.

The issue with Healing Ward and Harness is Sorc's Hardened Ward. If Hardened Ward wasn't so high by it's self (3x larger then they next magicka class shield due to all other shields being based on health) then shield stacking wouldn't be an issue as no one cares when other classes do it.

I posted a few times about a Major/Minor Shield buff (an idea borrowed from another forum poster which I'm sorry i won't be able to properly credit) that would bring all shields in line. Major Shield would 20% and Minor 10% of either magicka or health, whichever is higher. Being that there are only 2 buffs you could never stack more then 2 shields and never for more then 30% max magicka or health. All class shields would be Major Shield Buff. All non-class would be Minor.

Healing Ward - I think all classes besides Templar should get a passive that increases the shield on ally by 50%. This would mean they would give essentially a 15% shield to the ally. This would help to bridge the gap between Templar and other classes playing the healer role, though of course there will still be a gap.

Also Sorc's do have class heals in Surge, Blood Magic, and Dark Exchange. They have access to Consuming Trap, Blood Alter, Energy Orb, Cleanse, and any abilities in Restorations staff Tree, including Blessing of Protection which some use over Healing Ward and can heal as strong as Breath of Life.

Sorc's also have other defensive skills such as Bolt Escape, Lightning Form which grants Expedition, Conjured Ward, and a bunch of CCs that also allow them to control or escape fight. They also have monster DPS compared to other magicka builds.

Over all I think the only legit complaint about the Sorc is they have Burst DPS over sustain DPS but that's the reason people play Sorcs over the other magicka classes. They lack the weaknesses other classes have due to Ward being such a large shield. That is easily overcome with use of Destruction staff, but the issue is that Sorcs want their cake and ice cream and cookies and pie and want it all with in the class so as to not sacrifice Spell damage for utility. So on the DPS bar they would need Force Shock, and on the defensive/buff bar they need a Resto ability. They'll lose 2% spell damage on each bar by going outside of their tree and more by not using Duel Wield. I would suggest a Crystal Shards morph that would basically be Force Shock. It would not have the burst damage that CF has but I don't think anyone that PVPs will morph away from CF.

They are low risk, high reward where as the other classes have a good bit of risk compared to reward as they can not escape or depend on shield that is based on health and screwed by Battle Spirit in PVP. Many other magicka builds are using Sword and Shield and stamina abilities such as Evasion to make up for their lack of mitigation and mobility.

Healing Ward is the best shields a Magicka NB has as they do not have a class shield. While NB have some quality self heals and mobility they're stuck being a stealthier class to survive (as they should) where as a Sorc will dance around taunting enemies to exploit the situation. They don't have to run away or escape. They can Stand and Fight or Bolt Away or Nuke.

In short nerf sorc's shields buff other classes shields a bit and shields stacking wan't matter much.

Surge, so RNG with some more RNG? Need to have a crit, and have it be a strong crit, against a non-shielded non-blocking target. Wouldn't call that reliable.

Blood Magic, 8%, sorry, 4% max health heal tied to expensive skills that demand large magicka pools to be useful. And what skill should a sorc use to reliably proc this passive? Hard cast frags?

Dark Exchange, i've seen some say otherwise but this slow clunky 'heal' takes to long and does far to little in my opinion.

Consuming Trap, need to kill the target, and honestly how many people do you see using this skill anywhere aside from filling soul gems?

Blood Alter, only provides the health regen major buff to the caster as they can't ever use the synergy.

Energy Orb, Cleanse, not that fond of chasing the orbs around for heals but I guess restricting yourself to its movement to get heals can't be that bad.

Restorations staff, most known for the healing ward spam which is a very strong shield and I wouldn't really Blessing of Protection spam should be what a class relies on for staying alive, its bad enough saying 'x class must use y'.

I'll also add two heals you missed, the Clannfear and Twilight. The clannfear is a pet that zos turned into a sacrificial decoy, sure provides a heal but why even have it as a pet if that's the intent (also that 'change' came with a cast time for the whole skill), and the twilight's heal is a channel that only procs at low health that damages the twilight as it cast it with a 30s cooldown and it is on a pet that is already fond enough of killing itself.

Honestly you're underplaying harness magicka and healing ward, so if sorcs didn't need to rely on spamming shields to survive then by all means change how they work, but i'm not seeing alternatives in these kind of threads, only revenge nerfing.

This is why I'm glad that supposedly they're also talking with people behind the scenes who know what they're talking about. Most people on the forums just want to nerf classes for, as you put it, revenge rather than having balance.

bardx86

CP5 wrote: »

Essiaga wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Makkir wrote: »

Rayste wrote: »

12) Healing Ward, many of you will argue, is OP and needs nerfed, but I view it as a good tool to use against that OP stamina damage that is running rampant in Cyrodiil. I'm sure this will warrant further discussion.

No.

Currently sorcs do not have any class heals. You ruin Healing Ward and suddenly sorcs wont be taken into vet groups to heal.

Healing Ward is THE staple heal for any Sorc that is healing in PvE.

My NB healer agrees, I personally am ok with how it works currently. Harness on the other hand....

Corellon Thromorin wrote: »

We should compile the threads ZOS should ignore. Let's start with this one on the list.

The issue with Healing Ward and Harness is Sorc's Hardened Ward. If Hardened Ward wasn't so high by it's self (3x larger then they next magicka class shield due to all other shields being based on health) then shield stacking wouldn't be an issue as no one cares when other classes do it.

I posted a few times about a Major/Minor Shield buff (an idea borrowed from another forum poster which I'm sorry i won't be able to properly credit) that would bring all shields in line. Major Shield would 20% and Minor 10% of either magicka or health, whichever is higher. Being that there are only 2 buffs you could never stack more then 2 shields and never for more then 30% max magicka or health. All class shields would be Major Shield Buff. All non-class would be Minor.

Healing Ward - I think all classes besides Templar should get a passive that increases the shield on ally by 50%. This would mean they would give essentially a 15% shield to the ally. This would help to bridge the gap between Templar and other classes playing the healer role, though of course there will still be a gap.

Also Sorc's do have class heals in Surge, Blood Magic, and Dark Exchange. They have access to Consuming Trap, Blood Alter, Energy Orb, Cleanse, and any abilities in Restorations staff Tree, including Blessing of Protection which some use over Healing Ward and can heal as strong as Breath of Life.

Sorc's also have other defensive skills such as Bolt Escape, Lightning Form which grants Expedition, Conjured Ward, and a bunch of CCs that also allow them to control or escape fight. They also have monster DPS compared to other magicka builds.

Over all I think the only legit complaint about the Sorc is they have Burst DPS over sustain DPS but that's the reason people play Sorcs over the other magicka classes. They lack the weaknesses other classes have due to Ward being such a large shield. That is easily overcome with use of Destruction staff, but the issue is that Sorcs want their cake and ice cream and cookies and pie and want it all with in the class so as to not sacrifice Spell damage for utility. So on the DPS bar they would need Force Shock, and on the defensive/buff bar they need a Resto ability. They'll lose 2% spell damage on each bar by going outside of their tree and more by not using Duel Wield. I would suggest a Crystal Shards morph that would basically be Force Shock. It would not have the burst damage that CF has but I don't think anyone that PVPs will morph away from CF.

They are low risk, high reward where as the other classes have a good bit of risk compared to reward as they can not escape or depend on shield that is based on health and screwed by Battle Spirit in PVP. Many other magicka builds are using Sword and Shield and stamina abilities such as Evasion to make up for their lack of mitigation and mobility.

Healing Ward is the best shields a Magicka NB has as they do not have a class shield. While NB have some quality self heals and mobility they're stuck being a stealthier class to survive (as they should) where as a Sorc will dance around taunting enemies to exploit the situation. They don't have to run away or escape. They can Stand and Fight or Bolt Away or Nuke.

In short nerf sorc's shields buff other classes shields a bit and shields stacking wan't matter much.

Surge, so RNG with some more RNG? Need to have a crit, and have it be a strong crit, against a non-shielded non-blocking target. Wouldn't call that reliable.

Blood Magic, 8%, sorry, 4% max health heal tied to expensive skills that demand large magicka pools to be useful. And what skill should a sorc use to reliably proc this passive? Hard cast frags?

Dark Exchange, i've seen some say otherwise but this slow clunky 'heal' takes to long and does far to little in my opinion.

Consuming Trap, need to kill the target, and honestly how many people do you see using this skill anywhere aside from filling soul gems?

Blood Alter, only provides the health regen major buff to the caster as they can't ever use the synergy.

Energy Orb, Cleanse, not that fond of chasing the orbs around for heals but I guess restricting yourself to its movement to get heals can't be that bad.

Restorations staff, most known for the healing ward spam which is a very strong shield and I wouldn't really Blessing of Protection spam should be what a class relies on for staying alive, its bad enough saying 'x class must use y'.

I'll also add two heals you missed, the Clannfear and Twilight. The clannfear is a pet that zos turned into a sacrificial decoy, sure provides a heal but why even have it as a pet if that's the intent (also that 'change' came with a cast time for the whole skill), and the twilight's heal is a channel that only procs at low health that damages the twilight as it cast it with a 30s cooldown and it is on a pet that is already fond enough of killing itself.

Honestly you're underplaying harness magicka and healing ward, so if sorcs didn't need to rely on spamming shields to survive then by all means change how they work, but i'm not seeing alternatives in these kind of threads, only revenge nerfing.

Exactly!

dodgehopper_ESO

Solariken wrote: »

I like the spirit of the suggestions and broadly agree, but here's my two cents on a few of them:

1) Harness Magicka should not stack with Hardened Ward. Period. I shouldn't have to explain why at this point.
Simply making these not stack would just be a band-aid. Damage shields need a conceptual overhaul to be consistent with other buffs. I would suggest using a major/minor buff system that we already have for other abilities. There should be one for physical and one for spell. Skills like Hardened Ward or Blazing Shield could provide both buff types while Harness Magicka would only provide the spell type. Casting them together would simply refresh the spell shield buff. Also, the strength of the shield should be a FIXED value that does not scale with anything other than Bastion from the Champion tree.

2) Any and every ability should take the user out of stealth/Cloak. Yes, this includes Vigor, Camo Hunter, Rally, etc.
I do not think self-buffing abilities (Camo Hunter, Merciless Resolve) should break stealth but all healing and group buffs (Vigor, Obsidian Shield) should.

3) Surprise Attack should at the very minimum lose its built in armor debuff, it is too stupid OP atm.
Yep. Adding stuns and debuffs to spammable, high DPS abilities is generally a terrible idea.

4) Dragon Blood should actually heal the 33% of missing health it says it does. No brainer.
And Blazing Shield should get the stated benefit OR rework the skill! That ability is so worthless at current.

5) If we must have AoE caps, Barrier and Purge need to be subject to them as well.
But we mustn't have AoE caps!

11) Molten Weapons could use a slight duration buff.
It should also apply to light attacks.

12) Healing Ward, many of you will argue, is OP and needs nerfed, but I view it as a good tool to use against that OP stamina damage that is running rampant in Cyrodiil. I'm sure this will warrant further discussion.
It doesn't need nerfed per se - see my comment in #1 above.

13) Please look into making Templar ultimates more worthwhile in PvP.
Radial sweep needs a damage increase and a range increase. Nova needs to be fire damage (it is a "fragment of the sun" afterall) and it needs to include an AoE knockdown (no stun). Rite of Passage shouldn't hinder mobility AND projectiles should also hit enemies for damage.

15) If you're a vamp/werewolf, you shouldn't need a skill slotted to enjoy the perks thereof, cause DB will still wreck you without it.
I disagree, I think the slotted skill requirement was a good change. HOWEVER, I think that players should have to slot a Fighter's Guild skill to receive benefit from the Slayer, Banish the Wicked, and Skilled Tracker passives.

16) DK Chains should be less random.
I think it should always pull the target to you but it should have a minimum range for use like other gap closers.

17) I dunno about everyone else, but I don't think immovable potions should be a thing.
I really like them, and I think they help drive the consumables market.

I like the way you think @Solariken. I agree with almost everything you said except the Chains effect should pull you to the target, making it a gap closer if the target is cc immune in some way. Additionally, and related to that point, they need to rollback some of the cost changes given to dodge roll and blocking. The Reason? Talons does not increase in cost every time you fire it, but the counter to break out of talons does climb in cost. This would make Chains OP if they could yank you to them, and talon you to oblivion as they position behind you and start to whale away at you when you run out of stamina. The cost of Roll/Block vs. skills like Talons needs reconsideration, or Talon needs to have its own form of cc immunity. I prefer they simply rethink the stupidity of the Roll/Block cost changes (and health multipliers).

Please bring back the Tank role.

dodgehopper_ESO

CP5 wrote: »

Essiaga wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Makkir wrote: »

Rayste wrote: »

12) Healing Ward, many of you will argue, is OP and needs nerfed, but I view it as a good tool to use against that OP stamina damage that is running rampant in Cyrodiil. I'm sure this will warrant further discussion.

No.

Currently sorcs do not have any class heals. You ruin Healing Ward and suddenly sorcs wont be taken into vet groups to heal.

Healing Ward is THE staple heal for any Sorc that is healing in PvE.

My NB healer agrees, I personally am ok with how it works currently. Harness on the other hand....

Corellon Thromorin wrote: »

We should compile the threads ZOS should ignore. Let's start with this one on the list.

The issue with Healing Ward and Harness is Sorc's Hardened Ward. If Hardened Ward wasn't so high by it's self (3x larger then they next magicka class shield due to all other shields being based on health) then shield stacking wouldn't be an issue as no one cares when other classes do it.

I posted a few times about a Major/Minor Shield buff (an idea borrowed from another forum poster which I'm sorry i won't be able to properly credit) that would bring all shields in line. Major Shield would 20% and Minor 10% of either magicka or health, whichever is higher. Being that there are only 2 buffs you could never stack more then 2 shields and never for more then 30% max magicka or health. All class shields would be Major Shield Buff. All non-class would be Minor.

Healing Ward - I think all classes besides Templar should get a passive that increases the shield on ally by 50%. This would mean they would give essentially a 15% shield to the ally. This would help to bridge the gap between Templar and other classes playing the healer role, though of course there will still be a gap.

Also Sorc's do have class heals in Surge, Blood Magic, and Dark Exchange. They have access to Consuming Trap, Blood Alter, Energy Orb, Cleanse, and any abilities in Restorations staff Tree, including Blessing of Protection which some use over Healing Ward and can heal as strong as Breath of Life.

Sorc's also have other defensive skills such as Bolt Escape, Lightning Form which grants Expedition, Conjured Ward, and a bunch of CCs that also allow them to control or escape fight. They also have monster DPS compared to other magicka builds.

Over all I think the only legit complaint about the Sorc is they have Burst DPS over sustain DPS but that's the reason people play Sorcs over the other magicka classes. They lack the weaknesses other classes have due to Ward being such a large shield. That is easily overcome with use of Destruction staff, but the issue is that Sorcs want their cake and ice cream and cookies and pie and want it all with in the class so as to not sacrifice Spell damage for utility. So on the DPS bar they would need Force Shock, and on the defensive/buff bar they need a Resto ability. They'll lose 2% spell damage on each bar by going outside of their tree and more by not using Duel Wield. I would suggest a Crystal Shards morph that would basically be Force Shock. It would not have the burst damage that CF has but I don't think anyone that PVPs will morph away from CF.

They are low risk, high reward where as the other classes have a good bit of risk compared to reward as they can not escape or depend on shield that is based on health and screwed by Battle Spirit in PVP. Many other magicka builds are using Sword and Shield and stamina abilities such as Evasion to make up for their lack of mitigation and mobility.

Healing Ward is the best shields a Magicka NB has as they do not have a class shield. While NB have some quality self heals and mobility they're stuck being a stealthier class to survive (as they should) where as a Sorc will dance around taunting enemies to exploit the situation. They don't have to run away or escape. They can Stand and Fight or Bolt Away or Nuke.

In short nerf sorc's shields buff other classes shields a bit and shields stacking wan't matter much.

Surge, so RNG with some more RNG? Need to have a crit, and have it be a strong crit, against a non-shielded non-blocking target. Wouldn't call that reliable.

Blood Magic, 8%, sorry, 4% max health heal tied to expensive skills that demand large magicka pools to be useful. And what skill should a sorc use to reliably proc this passive? Hard cast frags?

Dark Exchange, i've seen some say otherwise but this slow clunky 'heal' takes to long and does far to little in my opinion.

Consuming Trap, need to kill the target, and honestly how many people do you see using this skill anywhere aside from filling soul gems?

Blood Alter, only provides the health regen major buff to the caster as they can't ever use the synergy.

Energy Orb, Cleanse, not that fond of chasing the orbs around for heals but I guess restricting yourself to its movement to get heals can't be that bad.

Restorations staff, most known for the healing ward spam which is a very strong shield and I wouldn't really Blessing of Protection spam should be what a class relies on for staying alive, its bad enough saying 'x class must use y'.

I'll also add two heals you missed, the Clannfear and Twilight. The clannfear is a pet that zos turned into a sacrificial decoy, sure provides a heal but why even have it as a pet if that's the intent (also that 'change' came with a cast time for the whole skill), and the twilight's heal is a channel that only procs at low health that damages the twilight as it cast it with a 30s cooldown and it is on a pet that is already fond enough of killing itself.

Honestly you're underplaying harness magicka and healing ward, so if sorcs didn't need to rely on spamming shields to survive then by all means change how they work, but i'm not seeing alternatives in these kind of threads, only revenge nerfing.

I actually feel exchange can be an 'okay' heal but its certainly not breath of life. It does have the bonus of healing the stat not drawn from though which is nice. I'll just say that I've used it to some decent effect, but it requires me to utilize terrain and bolt escape/streak or shield through my foes generally. I wouldn't discount Surge and Blood magic. While they are less than reliable with respect to an obvious spam skill like Breath of Life, they are heals that fire in the process of attacking the enemy, and those buffs also come with other benefits as well. Mines and Frags are both reasonable ways to proc the blood magic effect particularly in close quarters. Frags happen with regularity and are one of the Sorcs bread and butter form of magical ranged dps. Surge can be extremely powerful in the right situations, for instance steel tornadoing mobs while speed buffed and hitting a player while in execute range. In this example (a reasonable IC example) the sorc can maneuver in such a way that he's healing himself and using line of sight to continually sustain damage on mobs for self heal. I've seen it done. The two effects in tandem with a shield and boundless do an amazing job at keeping Sorcs alive.

The issue of bubbles getting in the way of Surge effects, or the Templar piercing aedric spear effects is a whole other issue entirely that needs to be revisited by the developers I think.

I agree with you that Blood Altar was probably never that good, and was made even less useful when they placed major/minor effects on it.


Everything is in a state of flux, and the hope is that they will balance all the classes more or less equally. In my mind at least, I would like it even more if all skills were open to everyone, and the game were balanced around that. I've played games where you can play anything and I find I like that system more. It would also mean that players could have more fun time playing one character than 1 or 2 (magic &/or stamina race). That's not how the system is though and while that's what I would have wanted for ESO that's not what it is. The best we can hope for is all the classes being balanced between each other.

CP5

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

Essiaga wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Makkir wrote: »

Rayste wrote: »

12) Healing Ward, many of you will argue, is OP and needs nerfed, but I view it as a good tool to use against that OP stamina damage that is running rampant in Cyrodiil. I'm sure this will warrant further discussion.

No.

Currently sorcs do not have any class heals. You ruin Healing Ward and suddenly sorcs wont be taken into vet groups to heal.

Healing Ward is THE staple heal for any Sorc that is healing in PvE.

My NB healer agrees, I personally am ok with how it works currently. Harness on the other hand....

Corellon Thromorin wrote: »

We should compile the threads ZOS should ignore. Let's start with this one on the list.

The issue with Healing Ward and Harness is Sorc's Hardened Ward. If Hardened Ward wasn't so high by it's self (3x larger then they next magicka class shield due to all other shields being based on health) then shield stacking wouldn't be an issue as no one cares when other classes do it.

I posted a few times about a Major/Minor Shield buff (an idea borrowed from another forum poster which I'm sorry i won't be able to properly credit) that would bring all shields in line. Major Shield would 20% and Minor 10% of either magicka or health, whichever is higher. Being that there are only 2 buffs you could never stack more then 2 shields and never for more then 30% max magicka or health. All class shields would be Major Shield Buff. All non-class would be Minor.

Healing Ward - I think all classes besides Templar should get a passive that increases the shield on ally by 50%. This would mean they would give essentially a 15% shield to the ally. This would help to bridge the gap between Templar and other classes playing the healer role, though of course there will still be a gap.

Also Sorc's do have class heals in Surge, Blood Magic, and Dark Exchange. They have access to Consuming Trap, Blood Alter, Energy Orb, Cleanse, and any abilities in Restorations staff Tree, including Blessing of Protection which some use over Healing Ward and can heal as strong as Breath of Life.

Sorc's also have other defensive skills such as Bolt Escape, Lightning Form which grants Expedition, Conjured Ward, and a bunch of CCs that also allow them to control or escape fight. They also have monster DPS compared to other magicka builds.

Over all I think the only legit complaint about the Sorc is they have Burst DPS over sustain DPS but that's the reason people play Sorcs over the other magicka classes. They lack the weaknesses other classes have due to Ward being such a large shield. That is easily overcome with use of Destruction staff, but the issue is that Sorcs want their cake and ice cream and cookies and pie and want it all with in the class so as to not sacrifice Spell damage for utility. So on the DPS bar they would need Force Shock, and on the defensive/buff bar they need a Resto ability. They'll lose 2% spell damage on each bar by going outside of their tree and more by not using Duel Wield. I would suggest a Crystal Shards morph that would basically be Force Shock. It would not have the burst damage that CF has but I don't think anyone that PVPs will morph away from CF.

They are low risk, high reward where as the other classes have a good bit of risk compared to reward as they can not escape or depend on shield that is based on health and screwed by Battle Spirit in PVP. Many other magicka builds are using Sword and Shield and stamina abilities such as Evasion to make up for their lack of mitigation and mobility.

Healing Ward is the best shields a Magicka NB has as they do not have a class shield. While NB have some quality self heals and mobility they're stuck being a stealthier class to survive (as they should) where as a Sorc will dance around taunting enemies to exploit the situation. They don't have to run away or escape. They can Stand and Fight or Bolt Away or Nuke.

In short nerf sorc's shields buff other classes shields a bit and shields stacking wan't matter much.

Surge, so RNG with some more RNG? Need to have a crit, and have it be a strong crit, against a non-shielded non-blocking target. Wouldn't call that reliable.

Blood Magic, 8%, sorry, 4% max health heal tied to expensive skills that demand large magicka pools to be useful. And what skill should a sorc use to reliably proc this passive? Hard cast frags?

Dark Exchange, i've seen some say otherwise but this slow clunky 'heal' takes to long and does far to little in my opinion.

Consuming Trap, need to kill the target, and honestly how many people do you see using this skill anywhere aside from filling soul gems?

Blood Alter, only provides the health regen major buff to the caster as they can't ever use the synergy.

Energy Orb, Cleanse, not that fond of chasing the orbs around for heals but I guess restricting yourself to its movement to get heals can't be that bad.

Restorations staff, most known for the healing ward spam which is a very strong shield and I wouldn't really Blessing of Protection spam should be what a class relies on for staying alive, its bad enough saying 'x class must use y'.

I'll also add two heals you missed, the Clannfear and Twilight. The clannfear is a pet that zos turned into a sacrificial decoy, sure provides a heal but why even have it as a pet if that's the intent (also that 'change' came with a cast time for the whole skill), and the twilight's heal is a channel that only procs at low health that damages the twilight as it cast it with a 30s cooldown and it is on a pet that is already fond enough of killing itself.

Honestly you're underplaying harness magicka and healing ward, so if sorcs didn't need to rely on spamming shields to survive then by all means change how they work, but i'm not seeing alternatives in these kind of threads, only revenge nerfing.

I actually feel exchange can be an 'okay' heal but its certainly not breath of life. It does have the bonus of healing the stat not drawn from though which is nice. I'll just say that I've used it to some decent effect, but it requires me to utilize terrain and bolt escape/streak or shield through my foes generally. I wouldn't discount Surge and Blood magic. While they are less than reliable with respect to an obvious spam skill like Breath of Life, they are heals that fire in the process of attacking the enemy, and those buffs also come with other benefits as well. Mines and Frags are both reasonable ways to proc the blood magic effect particularly in close quarters. Frags happen with regularity and are one of the Sorcs bread and butter form of magical ranged dps. Surge can be extremely powerful in the right situations, for instance steel tornadoing mobs while speed buffed and hitting a player while in execute range. In this example (a reasonable IC example) the sorc can maneuver in such a way that he's healing himself and using line of sight to continually sustain damage on mobs for self heal. I've seen it done. The two effects in tandem with a shield and boundless do an amazing job at keeping Sorcs alive.

The issue of bubbles getting in the way of Surge effects, or the Templar piercing aedric spear effects is a whole other issue entirely that needs to be revisited by the developers I think.

I agree with you that Blood Altar was probably never that good, and was made even less useful when they placed major/minor effects on it.


Everything is in a state of flux, and the hope is that they will balance all the classes more or less equally. In my mind at least, I would like it even more if all skills were open to everyone, and the game were balanced around that. I've played games where you can play anything and I find I like that system more. It would also mean that players could have more fun time playing one character than 1 or 2 (magic &/or stamina race). That's not how the system is though and while that's what I would have wanted for ESO that's not what it is. The best we can hope for is all the classes being balanced between each other.

Problem is I don't feel ZOS can do this when they put so much time between balance passes. The more they wait the more will change. The changes they make will be based around the meta that has long since gone stale but the changes will create an entirely new playing field and we will be right back to where we are in no time.

A while ago I played a bit of mass effect 3's multi-player. They did weekly balance changes for a while then went to bi-weekly before they stopped updates. By the time they were done I felt I could reliably take any combination of things I wanted to and make them work. Yes a majority of those changes were down to number changes so they could be updated frequently, but the fact that ZOS built this game is such a way that it can't be updated regularly is more an error on their end than a bonus to Bioware, this is an MMO, it needs to be able to adapt and change. What we have now isn't and at this rate won't.

Edgar_Baerland

I wouldn't want to nerf Sorc/NB. That's counter-intuitive.

Templar and DK just need to be buffed to be on the same level. PVP isn't interesting when 2/4 classes dominate the other two.

Obviously, there are a few exceptional templars and DK's. But PVP isn't about the top 5% of players. Great players with elite gear are going to find ways to excel at whatever class they play. PVP is about having the game be competitive for your casual-to-competitive players.

I can't speak too much to DK but playing a PVP Templar is basically saying I love puncturing sweeps, because its the only thing we have to keep us relevant/in a fight. And it's very, very hard to beat any player with a brain who knows what your one main method of attack. Outside of that we can heal ourselves until someone else shows up or we can throw down a few utility skills. Stamplars obviously struggle on the whole because they're basically melee glass cannons with poor healing.

Mag temp is the only way to go, and the only ranged class skill that's useful regularly is darkflare, and its dodgeable, interruptible, and has a huge cast time.

The best skill/most class defining skill templars have (and people might raise their eyebrows at this) is eclipse. It's an aggressive counter to spellcasters that allows a window for us to go on the offensive. Problem is its EXTREMELY easy to counter if the player is paying attention. The best use of it honestly, is waiting for a sorc to almost finish frags and pop it on them so it fires back. even then you won't have enough time to take them down before they bolt away.

again. WE SHOULD NOT BE LOOKING TO NERF SORC/NB. We should be looking on how to improve Temp/DK

nordsavage

This thread is little more than Sorc and Nightblade bashing. I bet he likes using a Templar. This guy seems to have a biased point of view and this thread should be mostly ignored by the devs.

melloni_aleb16_ESO

Abob wrote: »

The truth is this:

1. NB's, both magicka and stamina, need some buffs for pvp, increase their sustain and buff cloak, it has too many counters, and it makes nb's feel underpowered against other classes. I'd say it would be optimal to add a cooldown of 1 minute after cloak has bien countered, so that it can't be countered again until the minute has passed. Also, increased damage when coming out of cloak for 20 secs (damage is too low) and increased resource regeneration while cloaked, as well as reduce cloak magicka cost by 50%.

2. Sorcs feel too underpowered too, their sustain is subpar when compared to other classes (e.g. templar) so the Best solution would be to increase regeneration per shield stacked, and to this add some more spell damage per shield stacked should be added. Some passives to increase shield strength per shield stacked would be nice too. Stamina sorcs are really weak too, increase their mobility and buff them.

3. DK's, especially stamina, are really weak nowadays, their sustain is really low and having the only ult in game scaling off physical damage makes them feel discriminated, so please just increase damage done or change it to a combination of magicka and physical damage for it to be useful. Make them have 2k stamina regen just from passives.

4. Templars passives are too OP, especially for stamina, decrease balanced warrior passive by 50%. To balance their regen, make repentance only give 5% increase regen instead of 10%. Nerf eclipse, it completely negates magicka classes. Just nerf templars in general, please.

Thank you.

ahaahahhaahahahahahahahaahhahahahaaahahhahhahah thk for laugh XD

LegacyDM

CP5 wrote: »

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

xXNesTXx wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

NBs are by far the strongest class in PvP right now. Why do you think 95% of sewer gankers are Nightblades? The only thing these guys need more than a nerf is a BAN for griefing everybody else!

First one....in Ps4, the number of sewers gankers is the same for all classes....because become hidden when crouch are available for all....

Second one, be a ganker not means be strong....means be a moth%r Fu#k&"rs

Third one, gankers are crap but....is illegal? i don't think so.... then ... a ban? are you seriously?

If you are ganked....come back, kill him, and do some tbag.....that is so much better than a ban.....at least...it's more fun

Being a ganker doesn't make you the strongest class in PvP. I would argue sorcs are the strongest. They have Insane shield stacking, mobility, insane range damage, and can heal. Lets looks at all the classes and see what they get:

SORCs
Shields
Mobility
DPS
Heals

NB
Mobility
DPS
Heals

DK
Heals
Shields/Armor Mitigation
DPS (Some may say otherwise)

Templar
Heals
Shields
DPS (Some may say otherwise)

Clearly, Sorcs are the only class that accelerate and have access to all 4 categories without sacrificing too much. Sorcs are easy mode. I saw a sorc tank and kill 8 players in sewers by kiting a sewer boss back and forth through them while absorbing the damage from both the players and the boss. Eventually, he and the boss killed them all off. All he was doing was shield stacking, weaving in attacks, and healing...

Which class heals was that sorc using then?

Lol. They get heals from crits and healing ward stacks and complements shield stacking more so than any other class. Spare me the Sorcs don't get healing argument.

CyrusArya

@joshdm2001_ESO crit surge healing is irrelevant in PvP compared to other standard heals like vigor/rally or BoL or swallow soul spam or even less orthodox strategies like Igneous shield/coag/inhale etc. You can't control crit surge heals. It's not viable for self healing, just as a damage buff. Healing ward is not a class skill. The claim wasn't sorcs have no healing. Obviously sorcs aren't keeling over dead from not being able to heal themselves. The point is sorcs rely on shield stacking as their primary and really only means of survival. Your pointing out healing ward only proves this point. Without shield stacking (hardened/healing) sorcs have no means to survive. So the point is, you can't address shield stacking without giving sorcs another viable way to mitigate damage and sustain health.

RoamingRiverElk

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Nerfs to damage shields, well any nerfs for that matter to any class im not on board with, not in the current state of the game with CP and such.

Damage Shields have been nerfed substantially twice in the past year and yet people are still crying about it....

Bolt Escape has been nerfed a record 7 times and folks are still crying about Sorcs....

Sorry I just can't get on board with anymore nerfs.....the changes ZOS has made already concerning nerfs have driven many people away...i rarely log anymore because of it.

The nerfs to damage shields, Bolt Escape, Dodge roll, Healing, etc have done NOTHING but promote zerg warfare...most of these changes listed in the OP will do nothing but empower zergs.

Everyone wants penalties for using any defensive skill that makes it harder to kill you.

Where are the penalties for spamming Wrecking Blow?

Where are the penalties for spamming Ambush? or any other gap close

Where the the penalties for spamming any "offensive attack" for that matter?

There are none, yet folks continually get on here and rail and demand they nerf every single defensive mechanic in the game....

This in turn has ruined the game, ESO right now is in the worst shape it has ever been in from a combat perspective, and its not because of AOE caps, its because of constant changes and nerfs to defensive skills and abilities with no inverse nerfs to spamming offensive abilities which does nothing but promote zerg warfare.

@Ezareth summed it up a few months ago, an "uninteresting combat system" is what they created with the IPC patch moving forward....

You do nothing but create a zergfest when you nerf and put restrictive penalties on defensive skills while putting no such penalties on offensive skills.

Look at Bolt Escape, if you use it twice within 4 seconds, it costs 50% more cost increase stack and keeps increasing with each cast.

Look at Critical Charge you can spam it over and over and over, it has a longer range then Bolt Escape, Costs less, Has a hidden silence and stun built in, does damage, has no cost increase penalty, and can be spammed over and over and over without penalty and we wonder why this game is a full on zergfest.

Its no secret this game went from fighting all over the map with people traveling alone or in groups of 2-3 with fights all over the place to everyone running in giant 40+ man zergs, because they have tipped the scales so far in favor of full blown offense that using any defensive measures is penalized so heavily that it makes far more sense to run with a large group of other players to offset the penalties associated with using any defensive skills....

Please understand, im not trying to be harsh, but every update they have nerfed defensive and survival skills and every update the zerg gets worse and worse to the point the game is almost unplalyable, i will be watching the next update very carefully and if its once again nothing but nerfs to defensive and survival skills with no such nerfs to offensive skills i will be finished with the game for good.

Yes they do need to make DK healing work, on top of that they need to remove these stupid penalties from Bolt Escape, Dodge rolling, and add 25% of the value back to damage sheilds...VR16 Weapons are actually the equivalent of VR20 weapons in terms of how much damage they give you ad gold value, and the nerf to shields currently is far more then what many realize. Its part of what have made DK and Templar's have such a hard time because their damage sheilds are useless under the current system, and Sorc's Ward is just barely viable as Ward is good for absorbing one Wrecking Blow before it needs recast.

if we continue down this path of nerfs to defensive skills and survival skills with no nerfs to offensive skills this game will become 100% zergfest dominated with no other playstyle viable, and thats a game I want no part in playing....and if their podcasts are any indication, then many of those streamers you listed don't want no part of playing such a game either...

This is so, so true. Amazing post, thank you for writing it.

Essiaga

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

xXNesTXx wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

NBs are by far the strongest class in PvP right now. Why do you think 95% of sewer gankers are Nightblades? The only thing these guys need more than a nerf is a BAN for griefing everybody else!

First one....in Ps4, the number of sewers gankers is the same for all classes....because become hidden when crouch are available for all....

Second one, be a ganker not means be strong....means be a moth%r Fu#k&"rs

Third one, gankers are crap but....is illegal? i don't think so.... then ... a ban? are you seriously?

If you are ganked....come back, kill him, and do some tbag.....that is so much better than a ban.....at least...it's more fun

Being a ganker doesn't make you the strongest class in PvP. I would argue sorcs are the strongest. They have Insane shield stacking, mobility, insane range damage, and can heal. Lets looks at all the classes and see what they get:

SORCs
Shields
Mobility
DPS
Heals

NB
Mobility
DPS
Heals

DK
Heals
Shields/Armor Mitigation
DPS (Some may say otherwise)

Templar
Heals
Shields
DPS (Some may say otherwise)

Clearly, Sorcs are the only class that accelerate and have access to all 4 categories without sacrificing too much. Sorcs are easy mode. I saw a sorc tank and kill 8 players in sewers by kiting a sewer boss back and forth through them while absorbing the damage from both the players and the boss. Eventually, he and the boss killed them all off. All he was doing was shield stacking, weaving in attacks, and healing...

Have you lost your mind.

what about
NB
CC ability
continued dodge role
passive dodge
continued CC break
Vigor

wow dude just wow

Ok every class has CC, CC break, Vigor, can have passive dodge with Evasion, dunno what "continued dodge roll" even means, all stamina classes can do that.

NB's have high burst and fear, that's probably what you really meant, right? Well they also are a high risk, high reward class, they have to get in close to get their kills and as most competent players know, they are usually quite squishy and fold pretty fast if their burst fails.

I agree.

Though CC are not even across the board (templar lacks AOE CC and hands out CC immunity on skills i don't believe warrant it). Also CC break, dodge roll, block, and evasion all come at the cost of Stamina. Which is where shields come in but temp/dk ... NB are very well put together as they are able to kill and be killed but also have all the tools to escape (cloak expedition, evasion, shade teleport). Just to point out they do have access to 2 shields in Harness Magick and Bone Shield, though they the are limited to the types of damage they can protect against, in addition to Resto shield.

Vigor is another animal as escape classes have vigor in addition to DPS, CC, Mobility, etc. I hate Vigor since a stamplar has no real viable self heals. The entire identity of the class and no stamina healing (nor do their magicka heals remain very viable), and no escape options unless they go vamp. The templar class need NO MORE DAMAGE but instead more mitigation (viable shields, debuffs, and buffs). Templar and DK lack mobility so they need to be able to weaken their opponent to win. They need to take away damage, take away movement speed, and a counter to stealth (which class shield could be with longer duration and changes to balance out shields a little more).

The only adjustment to NB I would say is its hard to break free of fear and with the DPS a NB can put out its super powerful against class that depend on heals or active mitigation. I'm sure most NB find fear more useful against Templars and DK then against Sorcs due to the shields.

Essiaga

bardx86 wrote: »

Essiaga wrote: »

Johngo0036 wrote: »

I agree with all except 2.

Also i feel that the stamina drain is a little to high when blocking of dodge rolling,

You missed,
Dark cloak or any morphs should be exponentially more expensive, Just like streak...
It is unfair that one mobility/get away skill is penalized while another remains unpenalized for over usage..

I don't think Dark Cloak should get the Dodge Roll/Streak Treatment. There just needs to be more counters to it. In most games DoTs keep stealth class from dropping into stealth. In ESO Cloak negates DoTs. NB have the only in class anti-stealth skill. I think Templars Backlash should also work like Mark Target.

Also when you strike someone in real life, even with your eyes closed, you know you struck it. Cloaked targets should blink red when struck. Not their whole body but maybe a little red dot where they weapon impacted. If you hit them with a projectile the projectile would impact and stop or something. There needs to be a tell when you are striking a Cloaked enemy.

My recommended change to Cloak ...
No long removes DoTs but increases stealth speed while slotted. Remove that buff from Concealed Weapon and replace with Breech (Spell Resistance debuff) ... and Mark Target can lose Fracture and Breech as it already does so many things and Sneak Attack already gives Fracture.

If people feel Marked Target would be to weak then give it Stam regen for each attack against the target. Kinda like an Elemental Drain only for stamina. It would give NB more utility in groups

More speed for NB's? No just NO dude! I can already see 1/2 this message board salivating over that one, lol.

I hear you. Though It really wouldn't be more speed. The pretty much already get it depending which way they morph a skill.

I honestly think if it were all or nothing the majority of NB would vote down the changes I proposed.

Essiaga

CP5 wrote: »

Essiaga wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Makkir wrote: »

Rayste wrote: »

12) Healing Ward, many of you will argue, is OP and needs nerfed, but I view it as a good tool to use against that OP stamina damage that is running rampant in Cyrodiil. I'm sure this will warrant further discussion.

No.

Currently sorcs do not have any class heals. You ruin Healing Ward and suddenly sorcs wont be taken into vet groups to heal.

Healing Ward is THE staple heal for any Sorc that is healing in PvE.

My NB healer agrees, I personally am ok with how it works currently. Harness on the other hand....

Corellon Thromorin wrote: »

We should compile the threads ZOS should ignore. Let's start with this one on the list.

The issue with Healing Ward and Harness is Sorc's Hardened Ward. If Hardened Ward wasn't so high by it's self (3x larger then they next magicka class shield due to all other shields being based on health) then shield stacking wouldn't be an issue as no one cares when other classes do it.

I posted a few times about a Major/Minor Shield buff (an idea borrowed from another forum poster which I'm sorry i won't be able to properly credit) that would bring all shields in line. Major Shield would 20% and Minor 10% of either magicka or health, whichever is higher. Being that there are only 2 buffs you could never stack more then 2 shields and never for more then 30% max magicka or health. All class shields would be Major Shield Buff. All non-class would be Minor.

Healing Ward - I think all classes besides Templar should get a passive that increases the shield on ally by 50%. This would mean they would give essentially a 15% shield to the ally. This would help to bridge the gap between Templar and other classes playing the healer role, though of course there will still be a gap.

Also Sorc's do have class heals in Surge, Blood Magic, and Dark Exchange. They have access to Consuming Trap, Blood Alter, Energy Orb, Cleanse, and any abilities in Restorations staff Tree, including Blessing of Protection which some use over Healing Ward and can heal as strong as Breath of Life.

Sorc's also have other defensive skills such as Bolt Escape, Lightning Form which grants Expedition, Conjured Ward, and a bunch of CCs that also allow them to control or escape fight. They also have monster DPS compared to other magicka builds.

Over all I think the only legit complaint about the Sorc is they have Burst DPS over sustain DPS but that's the reason people play Sorcs over the other magicka classes. They lack the weaknesses other classes have due to Ward being such a large shield. That is easily overcome with use of Destruction staff, but the issue is that Sorcs want their cake and ice cream and cookies and pie and want it all with in the class so as to not sacrifice Spell damage for utility. So on the DPS bar they would need Force Shock, and on the defensive/buff bar they need a Resto ability. They'll lose 2% spell damage on each bar by going outside of their tree and more by not using Duel Wield. I would suggest a Crystal Shards morph that would basically be Force Shock. It would not have the burst damage that CF has but I don't think anyone that PVPs will morph away from CF.

They are low risk, high reward where as the other classes have a good bit of risk compared to reward as they can not escape or depend on shield that is based on health and screwed by Battle Spirit in PVP. Many other magicka builds are using Sword and Shield and stamina abilities such as Evasion to make up for their lack of mitigation and mobility.

Healing Ward is the best shields a Magicka NB has as they do not have a class shield. While NB have some quality self heals and mobility they're stuck being a stealthier class to survive (as they should) where as a Sorc will dance around taunting enemies to exploit the situation. They don't have to run away or escape. They can Stand and Fight or Bolt Away or Nuke.

In short nerf sorc's shields buff other classes shields a bit and shields stacking wan't matter much.

Surge, so RNG with some more RNG? Need to have a crit, and have it be a strong crit, against a non-shielded non-blocking target. Wouldn't call that reliable. (So you want BOL?)

Blood Magic, 8%, sorry, 4% max health heal tied to expensive skills that demand large magicka pools to be useful. And what skill should a sorc use to reliably proc this passive? Hard cast frags? (Daedric Mines - CC, Damage, Heal x 5)

Dark Exchange, i've seen some say otherwise but this slow clunky 'heal' takes to long and does far to little in my opinion.(agree. its a PVE skill )

Consuming Trap, need to kill the target, and honestly how many people do you see using this skill anywhere aside from filling soul gems? (Mark Target - need to kill)

Blood Alter, only provides the health regen major buff to the caster as they can't ever use the synergy.

Energy Orb, Cleanse, not that fond of chasing the orbs around for heals but I guess restricting yourself to its movement to get heals can't be that bad. (Streak to them. Try standing in Rune.)

Restorations staff, most known for the healing ward spam which is a very strong shield and I wouldn't really Blessing of Protection spam should be what a class relies on for staying alive, its bad enough saying 'x class must use y'. (BOP is about as strong as BOL ... so Templar advantage?)

I'll also add two heals you missed, the Clannfear and Twilight. The clannfear is a pet that zos turned into a sacrificial decoy, sure provides a heal but why even have it as a pet if that's the intent (also that 'change' came with a cast time for the whole skill), and the twilight's heal is a channel that only procs at low health that damages the twilight as it cast it with a 30s cooldown and it is on a pet that is already fond enough of killing itself. (Pets alway stink and are hard to balance as no one wants to depend on them. They want them in Addition to everything else)

Honestly you're underplaying harness magicka and healing ward, so if sorcs didn't need to rely on spamming shields to survive then by all means change how they work, but i'm not seeing alternatives in these kind of threads, only revenge nerfing.

Replied in your quote with bold text.

I wouldn't call NB heals truly reliable. However there are fewer MagBlade complaints that they don't have shields then Sorcs complaints that they don't have heals. As far as "X class must use Y" ... we already have that. Templar lacks mitigation and shield stinks, so many use Evasion or are vamps, etc. DK has no ranged attacks aside from Stone fist so they must use Destro, Resto, or bow. NB has no shields and really can do just about everything in class. They just seem to supplement with destro, resto, 2hand, DW, etc. Every class has a weakness or 2. Some are more easily overcome. You want BOL in exchange for ward and Streak? No you want it in addition to it but not via Resto staff as you pretty much already have access to it, but yet its the argument against all things Templar where as we can't get CF damage, Wards shields, streaks mobility ...

Again the issue with Ward and shield stacking is that the only counter to it is raw damage that some classes lack as magicka builds. So you either increase everyone's DPS (either in class or with weapon abilities) or you nerf the shields that need nerfed and buff the shields that need buffed.

Would you like to trade Destro staff their spamable (Force Shock) for CF so that we ALL can have magicka WB for all magicka classes? That would balance Hardened Ward but unbalance other classes ... The Blood Magic passive is one of the reason you have CF over a spamable skill. No skill in this line could be spamable or Sorcs would never die or the passive would need changed.

Sorc's don't NEED more class heals or shields 3x larger then everyone else BEFORE being stacked. They can find other ways. Ask a Templar. Templar and DKs need to be able Mitigate to make up for low dps ... how do you mitigate opposing players shields?

Shields are not balanced so changing things up a bit isn't reinventing the game. Besides when Blinding Flashes was removed you don't think Templars had an adjustment to make? We weren't given anything to off set it (no evasion or maim in place of miss chance). I'm suggesting less shields, not no shields.

Yes. Sorcs will die more but they'll only die as much as everyone else. If you see revenge nerfs in what i posted when i cited so many different reason then I'm afraid I think you are only looking through fearful eyes. The sky wouldn't fall, sorcs would just be coming down to earth, or nirn i guess. I'm suggesting equality. If what I presented isn't equality then recommend another fix rather then basically calling me, and everyone who things Hardened Ward is OP, petty. Might not be they way it was intended but nothing constructive to suggest otherwise.

Alternatives?

CP5

Essiaga wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

Essiaga wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Makkir wrote: »

Rayste wrote: »

12) Healing Ward, many of you will argue, is OP and needs nerfed, but I view it as a good tool to use against that OP stamina damage that is running rampant in Cyrodiil. I'm sure this will warrant further discussion.

No.

Currently sorcs do not have any class heals. You ruin Healing Ward and suddenly sorcs wont be taken into vet groups to heal.

Healing Ward is THE staple heal for any Sorc that is healing in PvE.

My NB healer agrees, I personally am ok with how it works currently. Harness on the other hand....

Corellon Thromorin wrote: »

We should compile the threads ZOS should ignore. Let's start with this one on the list.

The issue with Healing Ward and Harness is Sorc's Hardened Ward. If Hardened Ward wasn't so high by it's self (3x larger then they next magicka class shield due to all other shields being based on health) then shield stacking wouldn't be an issue as no one cares when other classes do it.

I posted a few times about a Major/Minor Shield buff (an idea borrowed from another forum poster which I'm sorry i won't be able to properly credit) that would bring all shields in line. Major Shield would 20% and Minor 10% of either magicka or health, whichever is higher. Being that there are only 2 buffs you could never stack more then 2 shields and never for more then 30% max magicka or health. All class shields would be Major Shield Buff. All non-class would be Minor.

Healing Ward - I think all classes besides Templar should get a passive that increases the shield on ally by 50%. This would mean they would give essentially a 15% shield to the ally. This would help to bridge the gap between Templar and other classes playing the healer role, though of course there will still be a gap.

Also Sorc's do have class heals in Surge, Blood Magic, and Dark Exchange. They have access to Consuming Trap, Blood Alter, Energy Orb, Cleanse, and any abilities in Restorations staff Tree, including Blessing of Protection which some use over Healing Ward and can heal as strong as Breath of Life.

Sorc's also have other defensive skills such as Bolt Escape, Lightning Form which grants Expedition, Conjured Ward, and a bunch of CCs that also allow them to control or escape fight. They also have monster DPS compared to other magicka builds.

Over all I think the only legit complaint about the Sorc is they have Burst DPS over sustain DPS but that's the reason people play Sorcs over the other magicka classes. They lack the weaknesses other classes have due to Ward being such a large shield. That is easily overcome with use of Destruction staff, but the issue is that Sorcs want their cake and ice cream and cookies and pie and want it all with in the class so as to not sacrifice Spell damage for utility. So on the DPS bar they would need Force Shock, and on the defensive/buff bar they need a Resto ability. They'll lose 2% spell damage on each bar by going outside of their tree and more by not using Duel Wield. I would suggest a Crystal Shards morph that would basically be Force Shock. It would not have the burst damage that CF has but I don't think anyone that PVPs will morph away from CF.

They are low risk, high reward where as the other classes have a good bit of risk compared to reward as they can not escape or depend on shield that is based on health and screwed by Battle Spirit in PVP. Many other magicka builds are using Sword and Shield and stamina abilities such as Evasion to make up for their lack of mitigation and mobility.

Healing Ward is the best shields a Magicka NB has as they do not have a class shield. While NB have some quality self heals and mobility they're stuck being a stealthier class to survive (as they should) where as a Sorc will dance around taunting enemies to exploit the situation. They don't have to run away or escape. They can Stand and Fight or Bolt Away or Nuke.

In short nerf sorc's shields buff other classes shields a bit and shields stacking wan't matter much.

Surge, so RNG with some more RNG? Need to have a crit, and have it be a strong crit, against a non-shielded non-blocking target. Wouldn't call that reliable. (So you want BOL?)

Blood Magic, 8%, sorry, 4% max health heal tied to expensive skills that demand large magicka pools to be useful. And what skill should a sorc use to reliably proc this passive? Hard cast frags? (Daedric Mines - CC, Damage, Heal x 5)

Dark Exchange, i've seen some say otherwise but this slow clunky 'heal' takes to long and does far to little in my opinion.(agree. its a PVE skill )

Consuming Trap, need to kill the target, and honestly how many people do you see using this skill anywhere aside from filling soul gems? (Mark Target - need to kill)

Blood Alter, only provides the health regen major buff to the caster as they can't ever use the synergy.

Energy Orb, Cleanse, not that fond of chasing the orbs around for heals but I guess restricting yourself to its movement to get heals can't be that bad. (Streak to them. Try standing in Rune.)

Restorations staff, most known for the healing ward spam which is a very strong shield and I wouldn't really Blessing of Protection spam should be what a class relies on for staying alive, its bad enough saying 'x class must use y'. (BOP is about as strong as BOL ... so Templar advantage?)

I'll also add two heals you missed, the Clannfear and Twilight. The clannfear is a pet that zos turned into a sacrificial decoy, sure provides a heal but why even have it as a pet if that's the intent (also that 'change' came with a cast time for the whole skill), and the twilight's heal is a channel that only procs at low health that damages the twilight as it cast it with a 30s cooldown and it is on a pet that is already fond enough of killing itself. (Pets alway stink and are hard to balance as no one wants to depend on them. They want them in Addition to everything else)

Honestly you're underplaying harness magicka and healing ward, so if sorcs didn't need to rely on spamming shields to survive then by all means change how they work, but i'm not seeing alternatives in these kind of threads, only revenge nerfing.

Replied in your quote with bold text.

I wouldn't call NB heals truly reliable. However there are fewer MagBlade complaints that they don't have shields then Sorcs complaints that they don't have heals. As far as "X class must use Y" ... we already have that. Templar lacks mitigation and shield stinks, so many use Evasion or are vamps, etc. DK has no ranged attacks aside from Stone fist so they must use Destro, Resto, or bow. NB has no shields and really can do just about everything in class. They just seem to supplement with destro, resto, 2hand, DW, etc. Every class has a weakness or 2. Some are more easily overcome. You want BOL in exchange for ward and Streak? No you want it in addition to it but not via Resto staff as you pretty much already have access to it, but yet its the argument against all things Templar where as we can't get CF damage, Wards shields, streaks mobility ...

Again the issue with Ward and shield stacking is that the only counter to it is raw damage that some classes lack as magicka builds. So you either increase everyone's DPS (either in class or with weapon abilities) or you nerf the shields that need nerfed and buff the shields that need buffed.

Would you like to trade Destro staff their spamable (Force Shock) for CF so that we ALL can have magicka WB for all magicka classes? That would balance Hardened Ward but unbalance other classes ... The Blood Magic passive is one of the reason you have CF over a spamable skill. No skill in this line could be spamable or Sorcs would never die or the passive would need changed.

Sorc's don't NEED more class heals or shields 3x larger then everyone else BEFORE being stacked. They can find other ways. Ask a Templar. Templar and DKs need to be able Mitigate to make up for low dps ... how do you mitigate opposing players shields?

Shields are not balanced so changing things up a bit isn't reinventing the game. Besides when Blinding Flashes was removed you don't think Templars had an adjustment to make? We weren't given anything to off set it (no evasion or maim in place of miss chance). I'm suggesting less shields, not no shields.

Yes. Sorcs will die more but they'll only die as much as everyone else. If you see revenge nerfs in what i posted when i cited so many different reason then I'm afraid I think you are only looking through fearful eyes. The sky wouldn't fall, sorcs would just be coming down to earth, or nirn i guess. I'm suggesting equality. If what I presented isn't equality then recommend another fix rather then basically calling me, and everyone who things Hardened Ward is OP, petty. Might not be they way it was intended but nothing constructive to suggest otherwise.

Alternatives?

My point is the heals they have are niche and relatively unreliable. You can't count on surge saving you, blood magic is, in cyrodiil a 4% max health heal but is in a tree that has expensive skills that require large magicka pools to both use and make useful. Consuming trap is a small dot thats heal is as strong as blood magic (with some resource regen thrown in) on kills where as mark target provides major armor debuffs and is a much larger % heal, as well as either giving a damage buff and bigger heal or rendering other nb's cloaks moot. Streaking to orbs gets rid of the sorc's advantage of using mines, unless they want to keep recasting mines (omitting the fact that the common morph keeps the arming time, and people can walk between the mines or simply stay out of range).

I don't enjoy the meta revolving around 'must max dps' and having damage be the only factor. I don't like how the counter for most things is just kill as fast as possible. But people just keep hurling rage post at all sorcs as if they are the cause of all the worlds problems and don't see that they are being pushed into a corner just as bad as everyone else. My bow using sorc doesn't have mines, or ward, or streak spam so what in class is there? I know that in pvp I can not rely on surge to keep me alive at all, and my magicka sorc? Try as much as I want I keep coming back to having to adopt the same old fotm build to stay alive. I would love to use alternatives but the thing is sorc's don't have them.

Essiaga

RoamingRiverElk wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Nerfs to damage shields, well any nerfs for that matter to any class im not on board with, not in the current state of the game with CP and such.

Damage Shields have been nerfed substantially twice in the past year and yet people are still crying about it....

Bolt Escape has been nerfed a record 7 times and folks are still crying about Sorcs....

Sorry I just can't get on board with anymore nerfs.....the changes ZOS has made already concerning nerfs have driven many people away...i rarely log anymore because of it.

The nerfs to damage shields, Bolt Escape, Dodge roll, Healing, etc have done NOTHING but promote zerg warfare...most of these changes listed in the OP will do nothing but empower zergs.

Everyone wants penalties for using any defensive skill that makes it harder to kill you.

Where are the penalties for spamming Wrecking Blow?

Where are the penalties for spamming Ambush? or any other gap close

Where the the penalties for spamming any "offensive attack" for that matter?

There are none, yet folks continually get on here and rail and demand they nerf every single defensive mechanic in the game....

This in turn has ruined the game, ESO right now is in the worst shape it has ever been in from a combat perspective, and its not because of AOE caps, its because of constant changes and nerfs to defensive skills and abilities with no inverse nerfs to spamming offensive abilities which does nothing but promote zerg warfare.

@Ezareth summed it up a few months ago, an "uninteresting combat system" is what they created with the IPC patch moving forward....

You do nothing but create a zergfest when you nerf and put restrictive penalties on defensive skills while putting no such penalties on offensive skills.

Look at Bolt Escape, if you use it twice within 4 seconds, it costs 50% more cost increase stack and keeps increasing with each cast.

Look at Critical Charge you can spam it over and over and over, it has a longer range then Bolt Escape, Costs less, Has a hidden silence and stun built in, does damage, has no cost increase penalty, and can be spammed over and over and over without penalty and we wonder why this game is a full on zergfest.

Its no secret this game went from fighting all over the map with people traveling alone or in groups of 2-3 with fights all over the place to everyone running in giant 40+ man zergs, because they have tipped the scales so far in favor of full blown offense that using any defensive measures is penalized so heavily that it makes far more sense to run with a large group of other players to offset the penalties associated with using any defensive skills....

Please understand, im not trying to be harsh, but every update they have nerfed defensive and survival skills and every update the zerg gets worse and worse to the point the game is almost unplalyable, i will be watching the next update very carefully and if its once again nothing but nerfs to defensive and survival skills with no such nerfs to offensive skills i will be finished with the game for good.

Yes they do need to make DK healing work, on top of that they need to remove these stupid penalties from Bolt Escape, Dodge rolling, and add 25% of the value back to damage sheilds...VR16 Weapons are actually the equivalent of VR20 weapons in terms of how much damage they give you ad gold value, and the nerf to shields currently is far more then what many realize. Its part of what have made DK and Templar's have such a hard time because their damage sheilds are useless under the current system, and Sorc's Ward is just barely viable as Ward is good for absorbing one Wrecking Blow before it needs recast.

if we continue down this path of nerfs to defensive skills and survival skills with no nerfs to offensive skills this game will become 100% zergfest dominated with no other playstyle viable, and thats a game I want no part in playing....and if their podcasts are any indication, then many of those streamers you listed don't want no part of playing such a game either...

This is so, so true. Amazing post, thank you for writing it.

Few things ...
Agree with the not nerfing defensive skills but it they were done in the name of balance. Every class needs an equal chance to kill and be killed. Mitigation and escape are 2 different discussions. As a magicka templar we tend to lack both, along with DPS.

Those who excel at DPS need to be counteracted with skills that mitigate or reduce damage.(maim/protection/resolve/ward/evasion, etc ... and shields)

Those who excel at movement need to be counteracted with CC and speed debuff which are countered with CC break, dodge roll ... basically stamina.

How do you counter Streak? It breaks roots and snares. No debuff keeps it from happening. They're simply isn't a viable counter. Perhaps they could make it so a DOTed sorc can't streak or perhaps just Mark and Backlash could keep Sorcs from streaking as DK have some viable counters to sorcs. IDK but infinite streaks and dodge rolls leave us where we are. Sorcs and stam builds (mobility and DPS is the current meta. Heavy armor/tanky builds are dead). Perhaps a simple increase in cost of Streak would suffice but either way it is a mobility with no counter and no equal. Its the most powerful escape ability in the game and coupled with the most powerful single target spell and by far the largest shields makes for a pretty kick ass class.

So if we increase the cost of Steak as a counter why not just increase the cost of dodge roll as well? Well even though magicka classes can't infinite dodge roll it doesn't mean they don't need to do it every now and then and the also need to be able to block and since Sorcs have the only shield that last more then 6 secs and is larger enough to take more then a hit or 2 they have an advantage in having to cast less and having to block less. They don't need to roll since they Streak and they don't have to worry about collision either as they'll streak through the attacker. Tough spot. Do we just let dodge rollers and streakers the ability to never be caught by other magicka builds? Seems a little unfair as those are the classes with weak shields, weak dps, weak mobility, and in the case of the templar weak CC.

How do you counter Shields? There's not Debuff for shields. The skills that are said to do more damage to shields have not worked in some time. So the only counter for shields is raw DPS. Templars and DK do not excel at DPS. So do we raise the DPS of these classes which will make them out shine Sorcs in PVE? Perhaps the sorc will need a DPS increase to off set this, but then they'll do more damage with the other classes getting no more mitigation.

Do we Decrease all shield size? The Battel spirit nerf was a blanket nerf to shields which effects all shields and shield stacking is only being complained about when it comes to sorcs. This also does nothing to give those lower dps, low to no mobility classes back their shields that are already to small to justify using. So Sorcs will take a nerf to shields but that won't improve the other classes lack of mobility or survival skills.

Increasing shield 25% would helps Templar/DK survive more but also make shield stacking sorcs a larger problem. so instead of 15-17k shield stacking we'll be seeing to 20k+. Sorcs will still be OP. So to kill a sorc you'll need to do enough damage to kill them atleast twice if the choose not to pop another shield or streak off before you get the chance to kill them, which again for templars and DK might take quite some time.

So what do we do? Address these imbalances? Balance the classes by balancing? Rebalance the entire game through increasing dps across the board and buffing 2 shields ... or addressing the skills that are the source of the inbalance?

Streak is still mighty annoying in PVP but is more limited. Let it ride as it is.

Dodge Roll is keeping those with more stamina from abusing it while still allowing magicka users a dodge roll, maybe even 2 if they don't care to block or CC break, etc. So let it ride.

Shields need rebalanced to be more equal with the bottom getting a buff and top getting nerfed. This will help balance out dodge roll as well.

Crit charge requires distance and a target. It gets you into trouble, not out, which is the case of any gap closer.

Ambush and WB do need addressed and many of the same people calling for Shield balance are calling for this as well. Ambush is the only gap closer that doesn't require distance making it completely spamable. Give it a distance.
WB empowers, stuns, knockdowns and can't be interrupted. Making it interrupt-able would be great but I think that's a larger issue. Removing Empower and removing the stun would be great. It would be less spam-able but still worth spam-ing.

I would also point out the most zerg friendly skills are not WB, Ambush, Crit Charge, or any others discussed in your post or my reply. I would say the are the Alliance Skills, Resto Skill, and Steel Tornado. I believe the Alliance skills and CP are unbalancing the classes and creating imbalance among players so that true blance is going to be hard to achieve.

I already called for a removal of Alliance Skills in a number of threads to combat zerging and improve server performance and @Wrobel already stated Steel Tornado would receive a nerf.

I get where your coming from and agree we need effective counters to DPS, not more DPS, but that's going to require a little buffing and a little nerfing

CP5 wrote: »

Essiaga wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

Essiaga wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Makkir wrote: »

Rayste wrote: »

12) Healing Ward, many of you will argue, is OP and needs nerfed, but I view it as a good tool to use against that OP stamina damage that is running rampant in Cyrodiil. I'm sure this will warrant further discussion.

No.

Currently sorcs do not have any class heals. You ruin Healing Ward and suddenly sorcs wont be taken into vet groups to heal.

Healing Ward is THE staple heal for any Sorc that is healing in PvE.

My NB healer agrees, I personally am ok with how it works currently. Harness on the other hand....

Corellon Thromorin wrote: »

We should compile the threads ZOS should ignore. Let's start with this one on the list.

The issue with Healing Ward and Harness is Sorc's Hardened Ward. If Hardened Ward wasn't so high by it's self (3x larger then they next magicka class shield due to all other shields being based on health) then shield stacking wouldn't be an issue as no one cares when other classes do it.

I posted a few times about a Major/Minor Shield buff (an idea borrowed from another forum poster which I'm sorry i won't be able to properly credit) that would bring all shields in line. Major Shield would 20% and Minor 10% of either magicka or health, whichever is higher. Being that there are only 2 buffs you could never stack more then 2 shields and never for more then 30% max magicka or health. All class shields would be Major Shield Buff. All non-class would be Minor.

Healing Ward - I think all classes besides Templar should get a passive that increases the shield on ally by 50%. This would mean they would give essentially a 15% shield to the ally. This would help to bridge the gap between Templar and other classes playing the healer role, though of course there will still be a gap.

Also Sorc's do have class heals in Surge, Blood Magic, and Dark Exchange. They have access to Consuming Trap, Blood Alter, Energy Orb, Cleanse, and any abilities in Restorations staff Tree, including Blessing of Protection which some use over Healing Ward and can heal as strong as Breath of Life.

Sorc's also have other defensive skills such as Bolt Escape, Lightning Form which grants Expedition, Conjured Ward, and a bunch of CCs that also allow them to control or escape fight. They also have monster DPS compared to other magicka builds.

Over all I think the only legit complaint about the Sorc is they have Burst DPS over sustain DPS but that's the reason people play Sorcs over the other magicka classes. They lack the weaknesses other classes have due to Ward being such a large shield. That is easily overcome with use of Destruction staff, but the issue is that Sorcs want their cake and ice cream and cookies and pie and want it all with in the class so as to not sacrifice Spell damage for utility. So on the DPS bar they would need Force Shock, and on the defensive/buff bar they need a Resto ability. They'll lose 2% spell damage on each bar by going outside of their tree and more by not using Duel Wield. I would suggest a Crystal Shards morph that would basically be Force Shock. It would not have the burst damage that CF has but I don't think anyone that PVPs will morph away from CF.

They are low risk, high reward where as the other classes have a good bit of risk compared to reward as they can not escape or depend on shield that is based on health and screwed by Battle Spirit in PVP. Many other magicka builds are using Sword and Shield and stamina abilities such as Evasion to make up for their lack of mitigation and mobility.

Healing Ward is the best shields a Magicka NB has as they do not have a class shield. While NB have some quality self heals and mobility they're stuck being a stealthier class to survive (as they should) where as a Sorc will dance around taunting enemies to exploit the situation. They don't have to run away or escape. They can Stand and Fight or Bolt Away or Nuke.

In short nerf sorc's shields buff other classes shields a bit and shields stacking wan't matter much.

Surge, so RNG with some more RNG? Need to have a crit, and have it be a strong crit, against a non-shielded non-blocking target. Wouldn't call that reliable. (So you want BOL?)

Blood Magic, 8%, sorry, 4% max health heal tied to expensive skills that demand large magicka pools to be useful. And what skill should a sorc use to reliably proc this passive? Hard cast frags? (Daedric Mines - CC, Damage, Heal x 5)

Dark Exchange, i've seen some say otherwise but this slow clunky 'heal' takes to long and does far to little in my opinion.(agree. its a PVE skill )

Consuming Trap, need to kill the target, and honestly how many people do you see using this skill anywhere aside from filling soul gems? (Mark Target - need to kill)

Blood Alter, only provides the health regen major buff to the caster as they can't ever use the synergy.

Energy Orb, Cleanse, not that fond of chasing the orbs around for heals but I guess restricting yourself to its movement to get heals can't be that bad. (Streak to them. Try standing in Rune.)

Restorations staff, most known for the healing ward spam which is a very strong shield and I wouldn't really Blessing of Protection spam should be what a class relies on for staying alive, its bad enough saying 'x class must use y'. (BOP is about as strong as BOL ... so Templar advantage?)

I'll also add two heals you missed, the Clannfear and Twilight. The clannfear is a pet that zos turned into a sacrificial decoy, sure provides a heal but why even have it as a pet if that's the intent (also that 'change' came with a cast time for the whole skill), and the twilight's heal is a channel that only procs at low health that damages the twilight as it cast it with a 30s cooldown and it is on a pet that is already fond enough of killing itself. (Pets alway stink and are hard to balance as no one wants to depend on them. They want them in Addition to everything else)

Honestly you're underplaying harness magicka and healing ward, so if sorcs didn't need to rely on spamming shields to survive then by all means change how they work, but i'm not seeing alternatives in these kind of threads, only revenge nerfing.

Replied in your quote with bold text.

I wouldn't call NB heals truly reliable. However there are fewer MagBlade complaints that they don't have shields then Sorcs complaints that they don't have heals. As far as "X class must use Y" ... we already have that. Templar lacks mitigation and shield stinks, so many use Evasion or are vamps, etc. DK has no ranged attacks aside from Stone fist so they must use Destro, Resto, or bow. NB has no shields and really can do just about everything in class. They just seem to supplement with destro, resto, 2hand, DW, etc. Every class has a weakness or 2. Some are more easily overcome. You want BOL in exchange for ward and Streak? No you want it in addition to it but not via Resto staff as you pretty much already have access to it, but yet its the argument against all things Templar where as we can't get CF damage, Wards shields, streaks mobility ...

Again the issue with Ward and shield stacking is that the only counter to it is raw damage that some classes lack as magicka builds. So you either increase everyone's DPS (either in class or with weapon abilities) or you nerf the shields that need nerfed and buff the shields that need buffed.

Would you like to trade Destro staff their spamable (Force Shock) for CF so that we ALL can have magicka WB for all magicka classes? That would balance Hardened Ward but unbalance other classes ... The Blood Magic passive is one of the reason you have CF over a spamable skill. No skill in this line could be spamable or Sorcs would never die or the passive would need changed.

Sorc's don't NEED more class heals or shields 3x larger then everyone else BEFORE being stacked. They can find other ways. Ask a Templar. Templar and DKs need to be able Mitigate to make up for low dps ... how do you mitigate opposing players shields?

Shields are not balanced so changing things up a bit isn't reinventing the game. Besides when Blinding Flashes was removed you don't think Templars had an adjustment to make? We weren't given anything to off set it (no evasion or maim in place of miss chance). I'm suggesting less shields, not no shields.

Yes. Sorcs will die more but they'll only die as much as everyone else. If you see revenge nerfs in what i posted when i cited so many different reason then I'm afraid I think you are only looking through fearful eyes. The sky wouldn't fall, sorcs would just be coming down to earth, or nirn i guess. I'm suggesting equality. If what I presented isn't equality then recommend another fix rather then basically calling me, and everyone who things Hardened Ward is OP, petty. Might not be they way it was intended but nothing constructive to suggest otherwise.

Alternatives?

My point is the heals they have are niche and relatively unreliable. You can't count on surge saving you, blood magic is, in cyrodiil a 4% max health heal but is in a tree that has expensive skills that require large magicka pools to both use and make useful. Consuming trap is a small dot thats heal is as strong as blood magic (with some resource regen thrown in) on kills where as mark target provides major armor debuffs and is a much larger % heal, as well as either giving a damage buff and bigger heal or rendering other nb's cloaks moot. Streaking to orbs gets rid of the sorc's advantage of using mines, unless they want to keep recasting mines (omitting the fact that the common morph keeps the arming time, and people can walk between the mines or simply stay out of range).

I don't enjoy the meta revolving around 'must max dps' and having damage be the only factor. I don't like how the counter for most things is just kill as fast as possible. But people just keep hurling rage post at all sorcs as if they are the cause of all the worlds problems and don't see that they are being pushed into a corner just as bad as everyone else. My bow using sorc doesn't have mines, or ward, or streak spam so what in class is there? I know that in pvp I can not rely on surge to keep me alive at all, and my magicka sorc? Try as much as I want I keep coming back to having to adopt the same old fotm build to stay alive. I would love to use alternatives but the thing is sorc's don't have them.

Niche and Unreliable. Yes. Their a DPS class ... So go out side the class, couple of staffs and you're good to go. Tell me were to get a shield similar to hardened ward or a anything resembling streak?

I get that you use what works to make you the most effective you can be. If the game changes you'll find away. There has to be a legit counter to everything in the game and there really isn't one to Streak or Shield Stacking aside from rolling a Sorc.

Eclipse doesn't stop you from streaking nor break shields. You'll CC break and be no worse off. DK uses reflect and you streak and run away and never have to fight a fight you don't think you can win. Both classes lack mobility so people cry for more mobility via Expedition, but that can be countered by snares and CC. How do you counter Steak and shields?

As for your stam-sorc you use Vigor and Rally and Evasion like every other stamina class. Dodge roll for expedition (or use Lighting Form), CC with scatter shot or bombard maybe defensive rune, and streak to get some distance. Or just spin to win and WB spam. Either way you're doing better then magicka templar and DK as there're standing still and doing less damage and poor mitigation along with it. They're just missing 'miss chance.'

Whats a stam-plar use? Vigor and rally and evasion ... They'd HAVE to use a bow for expedition and CC as the class simple doesn't offer it, even at the cost of magicka.

Now compare the buffs and debuffs of stamina weapons to that of staves. Sorc don't care but Magicka templars are using bows. BOWS!

CP5

@Essiaga

Perhaps a simple increase in cost of Streak would suffice - It stacks to an infinite cost, no other skill in the game punishes continued use and all gap closers can keep up with it except chains when it bugs out and leap since its an ultimate. If you are running a build without a gap closer or speed buff then you're accepting that you don't have control over the range of fights.

They don't need to roll since they Streak and they don't have to worry about collision either as they'll streak through the attacker - If you don't roll when streaking you'll get clobbered by people who know how to chase you down and you do collide, with walls, trees, pebbles, cliffs. And if rooted you have no say which direction you'll go in.

Their a DPS class ... - So we end up with the meta we have right now where all stam builds run vigor since there is no alternative that holds up to it, and magicka builds spam healing ward. If we are going 'they are a dps class' then its A ok that templars have low damage since they are 'a healer class' and dk's are fine with their lower damage since they are 'a tank class'. This is eso, those classifications aren't part of this game.

So go out side the class, couple of staffs and you're good to go. Tell me were to get a shield similar to hardened ward or a anything resembling streak? - Shield wise, healing ward, good magicka nb's can be a royal pain beyond belief if they use it. And streak? Try, rapids? Or any of the major speed buffs? Its designed to quickly change the caster's position, why not use other skills that help you do the same (ie, buff your ability to walk?). Again, its the only skill in the game that punishes the caster for using it, and so many people are just throwing hate threads at the whole class and i'm not even sure if these people know how to walk sometimes.

As for magicka templars using bows, sorry but a speed buff on dodge rolls and poison damage scaling with spell damage kind of support that. Now my magicka templar is using a 2h on one bar because that's how zos wants the game. Rather than continuing the "nerf sorc" train why not go to some of the recent templar threads and put suggestions there. People have been shouting to nerf sorcs for a long time now, how many more nerfs will people want before they finally decide that they just need to see how they are doing things?

bardx86

CP5 wrote: »

@Essiaga

Perhaps a simple increase in cost of Streak would suffice - It stacks to an infinite cost, no other skill in the game punishes continued use and all gap closers can keep up with it except chains when it bugs out and leap since its an ultimate. If you are running a build without a gap closer or speed buff then you're accepting that you don't have control over the range of fights.

They don't need to roll since they Streak and they don't have to worry about collision either as they'll streak through the attacker - If you don't roll when streaking you'll get clobbered by people who know how to chase you down and you do collide, with walls, trees, pebbles, cliffs. And if rooted you have no say which direction you'll go in.

Their a DPS class ... - So we end up with the meta we have right now where all stam builds run vigor since there is no alternative that holds up to it, and magicka builds spam healing ward. If we are going 'they are a dps class' then its A ok that templars have low damage since they are 'a healer class' and dk's are fine with their lower damage since they are 'a tank class'. This is eso, those classifications aren't part of this game.

So go out side the class, couple of staffs and you're good to go. Tell me were to get a shield similar to hardened ward or a anything resembling streak? - Shield wise, healing ward, good magicka nb's can be a royal pain beyond belief if they use it. And streak? Try, rapids? Or any of the major speed buffs? Its designed to quickly change the caster's position, why not use other skills that help you do the same (ie, buff your ability to walk?). Again, its the only skill in the game that punishes the caster for using it, and so many people are just throwing hate threads at the whole class and i'm not even sure if these people know how to walk sometimes.

As for magicka templars using bows, sorry but a speed buff on dodge rolls and poison damage scaling with spell damage kind of support that. Now my magicka templar is using a 2h on one bar because that's how zos wants the game. Rather than continuing the "nerf sorc" train why not go to some of the recent templar threads and put suggestions there. People have been shouting to nerf sorcs for a long time now, how many more nerfs will people want before they finally decide that they just need to see how they are doing things?

Good Post!

WreckfulAbandon

CP5 wrote: »

@Essiaga

Perhaps a simple increase in cost of Streak would suffice - It stacks to an infinite cost, no other skill in the game punishes continued use and all gap closers can keep up with it except chains when it bugs out and leap since its an ultimate. If you are running a build without a gap closer or speed buff then you're accepting that you don't have control over the range of fights.

They don't need to roll since they Streak and they don't have to worry about collision either as they'll streak through the attacker - If you don't roll when streaking you'll get clobbered by people who know how to chase you down and you do collide, with walls, trees, pebbles, cliffs. And if rooted you have no say which direction you'll go in.

Their a DPS class ... - So we end up with the meta we have right now where all stam builds run vigor since there is no alternative that holds up to it, and magicka builds spam healing ward. If we are going 'they are a dps class' then its A ok that templars have low damage since they are 'a healer class' and dk's are fine with their lower damage since they are 'a tank class'. This is eso, those classifications aren't part of this game.

So go out side the class, couple of staffs and you're good to go. Tell me were to get a shield similar to hardened ward or a anything resembling streak? - Shield wise, healing ward, good magicka nb's can be a royal pain beyond belief if they use it. And streak? Try, rapids? Or any of the major speed buffs? Its designed to quickly change the caster's position, why not use other skills that help you do the same (ie, buff your ability to walk?). Again, its the only skill in the game that punishes the caster for using it, and so many people are just throwing hate threads at the whole class and i'm not even sure if these people know how to walk sometimes.

As for magicka templars using bows, sorry but a speed buff on dodge rolls and poison damage scaling with spell damage kind of support that. Now my magicka templar is using a 2h on one bar because that's how zos wants the game. Rather than continuing the "nerf sorc" train why not go to some of the recent templar threads and put suggestions there. People have been shouting to nerf sorcs for a long time now, how many more nerfs will people want before they finally decide that they just need to see how they are doing things?

No need to jump on the 'nerf sorc' train, the best way to bring magicka sorcs back down to nirn regarding their ridiculous ability to tank magic damage is to change how Harness Magicka works. Maybe make it buff spell resistance and still return magic, make it heal you when hit by a magic attack (similar to the other defensive stance morph), I dunno how it should be changed but this is the core problem with shield stacking.

Anyone can use Healing Ward to be annoying and sorcs can use it with Hardened Ward and be extremely survivable. I think most reasonable ppl have accepted that sorcs have good damage, good mobility, good utility (mines, decent CC, class major sorcery buff), and the best shield in the game. What ppl mostly complain about is shield-stacking.

And I don't think that shield-stacking even needs to be an issue, I see nothing wrong with it if a few changes are made to non class shields. Annulment and Barrier are the only 2 shields that need to be reworked as they contribute to unbalance in PvP. How can some ppl not see or admit that sorcs bolting around nuking ppl with Harness and Hardened shield stacks as big as their health is unbalanced, especially considering how magic damage is already much easier to mitigate than physical damage and your average magicka user is less bursty than your average stamina user?

Jade1986

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

xXNesTXx wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

NBs are by far the strongest class in PvP right now. Why do you think 95% of sewer gankers are Nightblades? The only thing these guys need more than a nerf is a BAN for griefing everybody else!

First one....in Ps4, the number of sewers gankers is the same for all classes....because become hidden when crouch are available for all....

Second one, be a ganker not means be strong....means be a moth%r Fu#k&"rs

Third one, gankers are crap but....is illegal? i don't think so.... then ... a ban? are you seriously?

If you are ganked....come back, kill him, and do some tbag.....that is so much better than a ban.....at least...it's more fun

Being a ganker doesn't make you the strongest class in PvP. I would argue sorcs are the strongest. They have Insane shield stacking, mobility, insane range damage, and can heal. Lets looks at all the classes and see what they get:

SORCs
Shields
Mobility
DPS
Heals

NB
Mobility
DPS
Heals

DK
Heals
Shields/Armor Mitigation
DPS (Some may say otherwise)

Templar
Heals
Shields
DPS (Some may say otherwise)

Clearly, Sorcs are the only class that accelerate and have access to all 4 categories without sacrificing too much. Sorcs are easy mode. I saw a sorc tank and kill 8 players in sewers by kiting a sewer boss back and forth through them while absorbing the damage from both the players and the boss. Eventually, he and the boss killed them all off. All he was doing was shield stacking, weaving in attacks, and healing...

Have you lost your mind.

what about
NB
CC ability
continued dodge role
passive dodge
continued CC break
Vigor

wow dude just wow

Ok every class has CC, CC break, Vigor, can have passive dodge with Evasion, dunno what "continued dodge roll" even means, all stamina classes can do that.

NB's have high burst and fear, that's probably what you really meant, right? Well they also are a high risk, high reward class, they have to get in close to get their kills and as most competent players know, they are usually quite squishy and fold pretty fast if their burst fails.

IF their burst fails, you are usually dead within 1.5 seconds if you get hit off your horse or get hit from a ganker nb. Their burst rarley, if ever, fails. NBs either need to be seriously toned down, or DKs and Templars need to be severely buffed. The shields on dks are just pathetic atm.

WreckfulAbandon

laced wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

xXNesTXx wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

NBs are by far the strongest class in PvP right now. Why do you think 95% of sewer gankers are Nightblades? The only thing these guys need more than a nerf is a BAN for griefing everybody else!

First one....in Ps4, the number of sewers gankers is the same for all classes....because become hidden when crouch are available for all....

Second one, be a ganker not means be strong....means be a moth%r Fu#k&"rs

Third one, gankers are crap but....is illegal? i don't think so.... then ... a ban? are you seriously?

If you are ganked....come back, kill him, and do some tbag.....that is so much better than a ban.....at least...it's more fun

Being a ganker doesn't make you the strongest class in PvP. I would argue sorcs are the strongest. They have Insane shield stacking, mobility, insane range damage, and can heal. Lets looks at all the classes and see what they get:

SORCs
Shields
Mobility
DPS
Heals

NB
Mobility
DPS
Heals

DK
Heals
Shields/Armor Mitigation
DPS (Some may say otherwise)

Templar
Heals
Shields
DPS (Some may say otherwise)

Clearly, Sorcs are the only class that accelerate and have access to all 4 categories without sacrificing too much. Sorcs are easy mode. I saw a sorc tank and kill 8 players in sewers by kiting a sewer boss back and forth through them while absorbing the damage from both the players and the boss. Eventually, he and the boss killed them all off. All he was doing was shield stacking, weaving in attacks, and healing...

Have you lost your mind.

what about
NB
CC ability
continued dodge role
passive dodge
continued CC break
Vigor

wow dude just wow

Ok every class has CC, CC break, Vigor, can have passive dodge with Evasion, dunno what "continued dodge roll" even means, all stamina classes can do that.

NB's have high burst and fear, that's probably what you really meant, right? Well they also are a high risk, high reward class, they have to get in close to get their kills and as most competent players know, they are usually quite squishy and fold pretty fast if their burst fails.

IF their burst fails, you are usually dead within 1.5 seconds if you get hit off your horse or get hit from a ganker nb. Their burst rarley, if ever, fails. NBs either need to be seriously toned down, or DKs and Templars need to be severely buffed. The shields on dks are just pathetic atm.

Everyone gets killed if knocked off their horse by a competent player, DK's can oneshot you off your horse.

Surviving a gank attempt really isn't too terrible in 1.7 if you are built well and know what you're doing and NOT on your horse. If you're a glass cannon, you're probably gonna get ganked though.

You're right about DK and Temp class shields, they're a joke atm and need to be looked at. I get that major mending is great but DK's are supposed to be a fighter, in your face melee class and currently don't have the shield strength or class melee abilities to support this description. Whip should hit a bit harder IMO.

Essiaga

CP5 wrote: »

@Essiaga

Perhaps a simple increase in cost of Streak would suffice - It stacks to an infinite cost, no other skill in the game punishes continued use and all gap closers can keep up with it except chains when it bugs out and leap since its an ultimate. If you are running a build without a gap closer or speed buff then you're accepting that you don't have control over the range of fights.

They don't need to roll since they Streak and they don't have to worry about collision either as they'll streak through the attacker - If you don't roll when streaking you'll get clobbered by people who know how to chase you down and you do collide, with walls, trees, pebbles, cliffs. And if rooted you have no say which direction you'll go in.

Their a DPS class ... - So we end up with the meta we have right now where all stam builds run vigor since there is no alternative that holds up to it, and magicka builds spam healing ward. If we are going 'they are a dps class' then its A ok that templars have low damage since they are 'a healer class' and dk's are fine with their lower damage since they are 'a tank class'. This is eso, those classifications aren't part of this game.

So go out side the class, couple of staffs and you're good to go. Tell me were to get a shield similar to hardened ward or a anything resembling streak? - Shield wise, healing ward, good magicka nb's can be a royal pain beyond belief if they use it. And streak? Try, rapids? Or any of the major speed buffs? Its designed to quickly change the caster's position, why not use other skills that help you do the same (ie, buff your ability to walk?). Again, its the only skill in the game that punishes the caster for using it, and so many people are just throwing hate threads at the whole class and i'm not even sure if these people know how to walk sometimes.

As for magicka templars using bows, sorry but a speed buff on dodge rolls and poison damage scaling with spell damage kind of support that. Now my magicka templar is using a 2h on one bar because that's how zos wants the game. Rather than continuing the "nerf sorc" train why not go to some of the recent templar threads and put suggestions there. People have been shouting to nerf sorcs for a long time now, how many more nerfs will people want before they finally decide that they just need to see how they are doing things?

If you are running a build without a gap closer or speed buff then you're accepting that you don't have control over the range of fights. Toppling charge is also bugged to hell and pretty much always has been. For dodge rolling I was saying streak through WB or even gap closers rather then having to Dodge roll in defense ... and 1 direction from root, so its less then 100% of the time? ouch.

I was recommending a substitute for stack to infinite cost, which I agree is harsh but what are the alternatives? What if it was a just higher cost? You'd have to make the same judgment call as with any other skill. although you'd screw stam-sorcs unless they get stam streak. Again hard to balance.

Their a DPS class ... No you end up with balance. With out having some sorta idea how a class is to perform you can't have classes compete against each other. If you have 1 class that 5/5 and another that's 2/5 then why would people play the crappier class? Hence the crap ton of NB and Sorcs, and signifigantly less Templars and DKs. They have be able to perform on the same level in different ways ... No defined class ... play your way ... lets be real. Those are lines ZOS used to sell the game. While you can fill dungeon rolls with "non-traditional" classes, its pretty obvious that each class certainly has aspects they excel at otherwise every class would have a tanking tree, adps tree, and a healing tree but that's another discussion.

Shield wise so when you stack Hardened with Healing your Shields double? Yes NB do well even with out shields. See thread about people asking how a magicka templar kills a sorc ... the gist of it is luck or crappy Sorc.

And streak? Try, rapids? Sorc has the speed buff in their class so they cancel each other out which leaves Streak and no counter for it.

As for magicka templars using bows... because that's how zos wants the game. Same point. silly concept yet another conversation.

I've recommended things to balance the classes ... which is the topic. Sorcs are the toughest class in PVP. Big shield require big damage to get through. Raise dps? Nerf the big shield? Seems like a no brainer.

People have been shouting to nerf sorcs for a long time now, how many more nerfs will people want before ... just one ... it probably the one that would have keep Streak from getting nerfed.

DPS in the entire game should not be based on Sorc's ability to stack shields. PVE is pretty balanced so DPS creep to offset shield would hurt PVE and so much for unique play styles. Even NB is pretty balanced as it doesn't take massive amount of DPS to bring down a NB. Templar and DK don't need more DPS. They need Mitigation to with stand damage and allow them to utilize heals.

However to get of the topic of Sorcs ...

Templar
Radial Sweep - add execute to one of the morphs (get rid of other RD for all I care.)
Rune Focus - Add Protection buff to reduce damage while standing still.
Solar Barrage - Maim debuff to reduce enemy damage in rune.
Sun Shield - have be based on magicka or health around 20%ish, and adjust so that it's not a calculation night mare in PVP. One more magicka, other stamina.
Backlash - add anti-Stealth like Piercing Mark.

I'd like to see Toppling charge get Evasion. Might be a bit much.

I have several stam morphs i like to see as well including Charge, Shield, and Ritual.

WreckfulAbandon

Essiaga wrote: »

...
People have been shouting to nerf sorcs for a long time now, how many more nerfs will people want before ... just one ... it probably the one that would have keep Streak from getting nerfed.

DPS in the entire game should not be based on Sorc's ability to stack shields. PVE is pretty balanced so DPS creep to offset shield would hurt PVE and so much for unique play styles. Even NB is pretty balanced as it doesn't take massive amount of DPS to bring down a NB. Templar and DK don't need more DPS. They need Mitigation to with stand damage and allow them to utilize heals.
...

So much truth in that paragraph, not to say the rest wasn't accurate as well.

If shields had been addressed earlier, you sorcs would probably still be able to streak from keep to keep.

Essiaga

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

@Essiaga

Perhaps a simple increase in cost of Streak would suffice - It stacks to an infinite cost, no other skill in the game punishes continued use and all gap closers can keep up with it except chains when it bugs out and leap since its an ultimate. If you are running a build without a gap closer or speed buff then you're accepting that you don't have control over the range of fights.

They don't need to roll since they Streak and they don't have to worry about collision either as they'll streak through the attacker - If you don't roll when streaking you'll get clobbered by people who know how to chase you down and you do collide, with walls, trees, pebbles, cliffs. And if rooted you have no say which direction you'll go in.

Their a DPS class ... - So we end up with the meta we have right now where all stam builds run vigor since there is no alternative that holds up to it, and magicka builds spam healing ward. If we are going 'they are a dps class' then its A ok that templars have low damage since they are 'a healer class' and dk's are fine with their lower damage since they are 'a tank class'. This is eso, those classifications aren't part of this game.

So go out side the class, couple of staffs and you're good to go. Tell me were to get a shield similar to hardened ward or a anything resembling streak? - Shield wise, healing ward, good magicka nb's can be a royal pain beyond belief if they use it. And streak? Try, rapids? Or any of the major speed buffs? Its designed to quickly change the caster's position, why not use other skills that help you do the same (ie, buff your ability to walk?). Again, its the only skill in the game that punishes the caster for using it, and so many people are just throwing hate threads at the whole class and i'm not even sure if these people know how to walk sometimes.

As for magicka templars using bows, sorry but a speed buff on dodge rolls and poison damage scaling with spell damage kind of support that. Now my magicka templar is using a 2h on one bar because that's how zos wants the game. Rather than continuing the "nerf sorc" train why not go to some of the recent templar threads and put suggestions there. People have been shouting to nerf sorcs for a long time now, how many more nerfs will people want before they finally decide that they just need to see how they are doing things?

No need to jump on the 'nerf sorc' train, the best way to bring magicka sorcs back down to nirn regarding their ridiculous ability to tank magic damage is to change how Harness Magicka works....

And I don't think that shield-stacking even needs to be an issue, I see nothing wrong with it if a few changes are made to non class shields.

So you want to fix Sorc's OP shield by nerfing shields that other classes use? They already did this and DKs and Templars are pretty upset. Now we should go for what remains and what NB can uses. Go to the source and nerf the sorc.

I do see later in your post you acknowledge the crappy DK and Templar shields. Shield size and DPS have a direct connection. DPS can be mitigated. So the standard for DPS in PVP is the Max Shield size and health. Shields can only be countered by DPS. They would need to add another Debuff specifically for shields but that again would effect all classes and all shields instead of the one that is OP.

Suggest reading prior post about changing to shield buffs (a borrowed idea from another poster) if you haven't already.

Grymhawk

Before looking at specific skills I think some fundamentals need to be revised first..

(I'm sure some of this is just a repeat of what others have said time and time again)

1. Add a soft cap to damage. People are melting tanky builds in PVP again. This has become a game of who has highest damage and I hate the play style offence is your best defense. Can't cap defense and leave offence unrestricted.

2. Damage and healing should be mutually exclusive. Want to be a glass cannon damage dealer? You shouldn't get uber strong healing. There have to be repercussions with putting all your eggs in one basket. Have ability damage scale off weapon or spell damage. Have utility and healing scale off of associated resource pool. Don't scale everything off both resource and s/w damage.

3. Fix CC immunity and the ability to chain CC. Lengthen CC immunity, there is too much (and broken) CC in this game right now.

4. Add cool downs to abilities that are considered nukes (I'm looking at you WB, CF, etc..). Or increase the cost of spamming. Or decrease their effectiveness if spammed (damage penalties).

5. Make blocking viable again. Even with a high recovery build blocking in PVP just drains your stamina pool too quickly.

6. Make heavy armor viable!

CP5

Grymhawk wrote: »

Before looking at specific skills I think some fundamentals need to be revised first..

(I'm sure some of this is just a repeat of what others have said time and time again)

1. Add a soft cap to damage. People are melting tanky builds in PVP again. This has become a game of who has highest damage and I hate the play style offence is your best defense. Can't cap defense and leave offence unrestricted.

2. Damage and healing should be mutually exclusive. Want to be a glass cannon damage dealer? You shouldn't get uber strong healing. There have to be repercussions with putting all your eggs in one basket. Have ability damage scale off weapon or spell damage. Have utility and healing scale off of associated resource pool. Don't scale everything off both resource and s/w damage.

3. Fix CC immunity and the ability to chain CC. Lengthen CC immunity, there is too much (and broken) CC in this game right now.

4. Add cool downs to abilities that are considered nukes (I'm looking at you WB, CF, etc..). Or increase the cost of spamming. Or decrease their effectiveness if spammed (damage penalties).

5. Make blocking viable again. Even with a high recovery build blocking in PVP just drains your stamina pool too quickly.

6. Make heavy armor viable!

Good points, however I want to comment on a few. A lack of cooldowns are one of the things that drew people to this game, adding them would not go over well. Making heavy armor/blocking more valuable to fight against the insane damage meta we have is something I hope no one would be against.

But the best point I see is #2. How ZOS thinks they can have a game where you get more powerful skills by pouring points into the maximum resource sizes, but also be able to have builds that don't rely on gaining very high levels of both resources and damage is beyond me. This is something that should be a thing, else all the high damage builds will always have the best survivability, and anyone who doesn't stack everything to one damage type ends up gimping themselves (ie, hybrid builds) and ends up maintaining the meta that's running.

Also, @Essiaga, thank you for again giving your perspective.

If you really feel that ZOS's original design of 'any class any role, just how they do their roles is different' is not possible then sure, we can accept sorc's taking a hit in their shields so long as templars and dk's maintain their roles of healers and tanks, meaning if anything they would take hits to damage output. Not something the community would agree on, and better to try to go for the original design where classes are different methods of getting things done, not locks in what you can do.

Templar
Radial Sweep - add execute to one of the morphs (get rid of other RD for all I care.) that could prove very useful
Rune Focus - Add Protection buff to reduce damage while standing still. like the idea of encouraging a class not designed for mobility to stay still and be rewarded
Solar Barrage - Maim debuff to reduce enemy damage in rune.
Sun Shield - have be based on magicka or health around 20%ish, and adjust so that it's not a calculation night mare in PVP. One more magicka, other stamina.
Backlash - add anti-Stealth like Piercing Mark. Not a fan of zos giving the best anti-nb skill to nb's so this would be welcome to me and likely both of my templars would likely try it at least

I'd like to see Toppling charge get Evasion. Might be a bit much.

I have several stam morphs i like to see as well including Charge, Shield, and Ritual.

These things, and toppling charge are points where templars can be improved. The thread about magicka templars not having luck killing magicka sorcs revolves around templars not having a reliable method to get the burst needed to down shield users, and that charge is bugged to heck and back. If charge worked properly I could see templars being a great class to counter sorcs (eclypse to counter a burst rotation, toppling to chase the sorc with a magicka charge that has knock down, exc.), but that comes down to the delay in these bug fixes and balance passes.

If it weren't for how ZOS has handled the balance passes and bug fixes I don't think many of these threads would be coming up. I just feel that the frustration comes from ZOS leaving this meta sit for as long as it has and that people are bent on just seeing the classes that have frustrated them nerfed. Guess all we can hope for is the theives guild dlc swooping in and saving the day without making a new, even more frustrating meta in its wake.