Upcoming Class Rebalance

Jade1986

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

laced wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

xXNesTXx wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

NBs are by far the strongest class in PvP right now. Why do you think 95% of sewer gankers are Nightblades? The only thing these guys need more than a nerf is a BAN for griefing everybody else!

First one....in Ps4, the number of sewers gankers is the same for all classes....because become hidden when crouch are available for all....

Second one, be a ganker not means be strong....means be a moth%r Fu#k&"rs

Third one, gankers are crap but....is illegal? i don't think so.... then ... a ban? are you seriously?

If you are ganked....come back, kill him, and do some tbag.....that is so much better than a ban.....at least...it's more fun

Being a ganker doesn't make you the strongest class in PvP. I would argue sorcs are the strongest. They have Insane shield stacking, mobility, insane range damage, and can heal. Lets looks at all the classes and see what they get:

SORCs
Shields
Mobility
DPS
Heals

NB
Mobility
DPS
Heals

DK
Heals
Shields/Armor Mitigation
DPS (Some may say otherwise)

Templar
Heals
Shields
DPS (Some may say otherwise)

Clearly, Sorcs are the only class that accelerate and have access to all 4 categories without sacrificing too much. Sorcs are easy mode. I saw a sorc tank and kill 8 players in sewers by kiting a sewer boss back and forth through them while absorbing the damage from both the players and the boss. Eventually, he and the boss killed them all off. All he was doing was shield stacking, weaving in attacks, and healing...

Have you lost your mind.

what about
NB
CC ability
continued dodge role
passive dodge
continued CC break
Vigor

wow dude just wow

Ok every class has CC, CC break, Vigor, can have passive dodge with Evasion, dunno what "continued dodge roll" even means, all stamina classes can do that.

NB's have high burst and fear, that's probably what you really meant, right? Well they also are a high risk, high reward class, they have to get in close to get their kills and as most competent players know, they are usually quite squishy and fold pretty fast if their burst fails.

IF their burst fails, you are usually dead within 1.5 seconds if you get hit off your horse or get hit from a ganker nb. Their burst rarley, if ever, fails. NBs either need to be seriously toned down, or DKs and Templars need to be severely buffed. The shields on dks are just pathetic atm.

Everyone gets killed if knocked off their horse by a competent player, DK's can oneshot you off your horse.

Surviving a gank attempt really isn't too terrible in 1.7 if you are built well and know what you're doing and NOT on your horse. If you're a glass cannon, you're probably gonna get ganked though.

You're right about DK and Temp class shields, they're a joke atm and need to be looked at. I get that major mending is great but DK's are supposed to be a fighter, in your face melee class and currently don't have the shield strength or class melee abilities to support this description. Whip should hit a bit harder IMO.

One thing that could work is to reduce the cost of magma armor, right now it takes FAR FAR too long to get that ultimate up, same with dk standard, WAY too long. If magma armor was down to 100 ultimate like leap, then dks would be a bit more fierce, but atm......pretty much our only viable option is leap.

Rune_Relic

Solution.

Class skills are MAJOR version.
Non Class skills have a MINOR version of all class skills.
This makes all classes Specialists with a certain skill (ie best) ....but not unique.
This keeps classes relevant without giving them a monopoly on powerful skills.

The argument than becomes ..What is the best way to split those minor class skills up across the non class skill trees.
Is...
DK = tank specialist
Temp = Heal specialist
Sorc = mag DPS specialist
NB = stam DPS specialist
...an acceptable template ?

Should there be non class skills that are equally powerful as class skills and stand in their own right ?
ie MAJOR weapon skills.
I am sure there are Classless people that want to be competitive without being forced into a specific class.

I would also consider...
If DPS depends on magicka/stamina
If Tanking depends on health.
Switching healing to be based on balanced stats that's amplified by equality.

This makes Health tank specific only (greater health = Greater mitigation only).
This makes magicka DPS specific only (greater magicka = Greater magicka dps only).
This makes stamina DPS specific only (greater stamina = Greater stamina dps only).
This makes hybrid healing specific only (lower stat & resource variation + higher mean resource = Greater Healing).
This then fixes all of the class vs role cross over issues.

[EDIT. It becomes apparent there is a problem with the notion of weapon damage increasing healing ability. If you increase damage you should sacrifice healing. So weapon/spell damage on healing staff should be minimal or negate healing ability]

Essiaga

CP5 wrote: »

Grymhawk wrote: »

Before looking at specific skills I think some fundamentals need to be revised first..

(I'm sure some of this is just a repeat of what others have said time and time again)

1. Add a soft cap to damage. People are melting tanky builds in PVP again. This has become a game of who has highest damage and I hate the play style offence is your best defense. Can't cap defense and leave offence unrestricted.

2. Damage and healing should be mutually exclusive. Want to be a glass cannon damage dealer? You shouldn't get uber strong healing. There have to be repercussions with putting all your eggs in one basket. Have ability damage scale off weapon or spell damage. Have utility and healing scale off of associated resource pool. Don't scale everything off both resource and s/w damage.

3. Fix CC immunity and the ability to chain CC. Lengthen CC immunity, there is too much (and broken) CC in this game right now.

4. Add cool downs to abilities that are considered nukes (I'm looking at you WB, CF, etc..). Or increase the cost of spamming. Or decrease their effectiveness if spammed (damage penalties).

5. Make blocking viable again. Even with a high recovery build blocking in PVP just drains your stamina pool too quickly.

6. Make heavy armor viable!

Good points, however I want to comment on a few. A lack of cooldowns are one of the things that drew people to this game, adding them would not go over well. Making heavy armor/blocking more valuable to fight against the insane damage meta we have is something I hope no one would be against.

But the best point I see is #2. How ZOS thinks they can have a game where you get more powerful skills by pouring points into the maximum resource sizes, but also be able to have builds that don't rely on gaining very high levels of both resources and damage is beyond me. This is something that should be a thing, else all the high damage builds will always have the best survivability, and anyone who doesn't stack everything to one damage type ends up gimping themselves (ie, hybrid builds) and ends up maintaining the meta that's running.

Also, @Essiaga, thank you for again giving your perspective.

If you really feel that ZOS's original design of 'any class any role, just how they do their roles is different' is not possible then sure, we can accept sorc's taking a hit in their shields so long as templars and dk's maintain their roles of healers and tanks, meaning if anything they would take hits to damage output. Not something the community would agree on, and better to try to go for the original design where classes are different methods of getting things done, not locks in what you can do.

Templar
Radial Sweep - add execute to one of the morphs (get rid of other RD for all I care.) that could prove very useful
Rune Focus - Add Protection buff to reduce damage while standing still. like the idea of encouraging a class not designed for mobility to stay still and be rewarded
Solar Barrage - Maim debuff to reduce enemy damage in rune.
Sun Shield - have be based on magicka or health around 20%ish, and adjust so that it's not a calculation night mare in PVP. One more magicka, other stamina.
Backlash - add anti-Stealth like Piercing Mark. Not a fan of zos giving the best anti-nb skill to nb's so this would be welcome to me and likely both of my templars would likely try it at least

I'd like to see Toppling charge get Evasion. Might be a bit much.

I have several stam morphs i like to see as well including Charge, Shield, and Ritual.

These things, and toppling charge are points where templars can be improved. The thread about magicka templars not having luck killing magicka sorcs revolves around templars not having a reliable method to get the burst needed to down shield users, and that charge is bugged to heck and back. If charge worked properly I could see templars being a great class to counter sorcs (eclypse to counter a burst rotation, toppling to chase the sorc with a magicka charge that has knock down, exc.), but that comes down to the delay in these bug fixes and balance passes.

If it weren't for how ZOS has handled the balance passes and bug fixes I don't think many of these threads would be coming up. I just feel that the frustration comes from ZOS leaving this meta sit for as long as it has and that people are bent on just seeing the classes that have frustrated them nerfed. Guess all we can hope for is the theives guild dlc swooping in and saving the day without making a new, even more frustrating meta in its wake.

I agree 100%. ZOS balance and bugs ... and Templars could be very solid vs Sorcs with some slight changes. However I don't trust ZOS to do them.

I'd love to see a DK and Templar class skill that was a shield debuffer (30-50% reduction). Then I'd like to see mobs and bosses start using shields. Perhaps Backlash could be a double debuff (stealth and shields). However the skills that should do more damage to shields don't work and most of the Templar skills are buggy at best.

Eclipse under performs due to CC break and immunity. If it applied any CC I could accept that but the target is free to defend or run if they don't choose to break it.

At least with DK's Chains that PULL they've moved the enemy and CC can be justified. Not when the DK is pulled to the enemy though. (Chains...ZOS fix pls.)

ZOS should change Eclipse so damage should apply when broken, but not Purged. I'd love to see it active on more then one target (multiple cast of course).

I actually think ZOS has done a fairly good job of balancing PVE. Templar and DK damage options are there but in a way that is hard to pull off in PVP. So filling any role is possible but not optimal. MagmaShell is clearly a tanking Ult. Remembrance clearly a Healer. Hell even Nova seems more like a healer skill.

In PVP a templer or DK cannot just settle into a rotation and crush the enemies because the enemies is no longer AI. Players can do a great many things to counter sustain DPS that NPC don't do. Skills that are bread and butter in PVE are hazardous to your health or to easily mitigated in PVP. That leaves the sustain DPS classes less likely to get through shields.

Dark Flare - you can simply spam this skill and do adequate damage for most pve encounters. It hits pretty hard and if you could get this skill off against a sorc shield it should do a substantial dent. However it's cast time, and players abilities, make this skill hard to use and in that 1 second cast time a Sorc can go offence and blow you up. DF is a group skill.

CFrags - insta-cast makes this skill ideal for PVP. Drop the boom with out the tell. Yes it can be dodged, etc. but when it hits its almost instant victory.

DOTs ... /giggle. There so many ways to counter DOTS and DK DPS is very wrapped up in DOTS. They are also given 2 Class stam DOTs I rarely see used, but then again I rarely see any stam build using many skills beyond STornado, CCharge, and WB. CP and Purge have made them weak or irrelevant. They haven't worked on shields, though I think I saw some posts suggesting that they are now.

Shields in general. I don't see the value of shields in 97+% of PVE. Sun shield I use for the extra DPS every bit or more then for protection. There was like 3 bosses in the game that shields were useful for. ZOS increasing burst damage on some bosses in recent updates that have made shields more valuable (and NB more squishy). Shields seem like they were intended for PVP. They are protection vs burst DPS. However against sustain DPS they are simply OP.

Here is how i'd like to see the classes work out in PVP and I think they used to and were intended to ...

Sorcs/NB should Buff them selves. (Prophecy,Brutality,Bersek).
Sorc/NB should actively escape. (streak, cloak, shade).
Heavier single target, with fairly limited class AOE. (CF,curse, Sneak attack, impale ...)(Liquid lighting, Drain)

DK/Templar should Debuff their enemies. (Maim, Defile, Fracture, Breech).
DK/Templar best defense should be to stand and fight. (Block and heal ... evasion, protection as well as snares and root and shields).(Ash Cloud, Cleansing Ritual, Rune Focus)
Stronger AOE, with fairly limited single target.(Ash, Breath, Inhale, Sweep/Jabs, Shield, solor barrage, blinding flashes(/sobs).(Searing, Whip, flare, Sun fire)

NB and Templar heal and crit damage. Aggressive ... DK and Sorc mitigate and straight damage. Counter Punchers.

Different ways of getting to the same place. Of course weapon selection, etc, would help fill holes which all classes should have. I think the classes used to work more like this but the issue is Devs decided (with customer comments like these) that burst DPS (remove of hard caps) and mobility rule and Sustain and mitigation stink ... and here we are talking about Hardened Ward ...

Metemsycosis

Re: shield stacking. It's fine the way it is, but I'd like to see a shield debuff skill at some point. A poison pot or the like.

Reduce the effectiveness of shields by x %.

Win.

Maybe magic shields can be held for too long, relative to other options. bone shield could be changed to remain as long as annulment, for example.

I noticed that in the open world sorcs have trouble 1vs x competent players who know how to drain stamina, and there isn't one class I haven't witnessed drawing the attention of like five to ten people and living for a little while. Temps with endless elusive mists and breaths of life. Purging warding blurring nbs or vigor cloaking stamblades. Dks that have 99.99% damage mitigation, or so it seemed to me. Let sorcs have their shields. This isn't mortal kombat and I think sorcs are vulnerable in every other context besides solo one vs one type of play. Watched a few duels that changed my mind about that too. (Stam dk)


I think Templars are strong. Both varieties. you know when they're missing from the battlefield and they are always a priority target. Who used binding javelin for damage ? They have sweeps magicka snipe and soul assault with a magicka cost. Buff their shield. Buff class crit resistance. Make templar tanking more viable. I'm convinced the dps is fine.

magicka dks with slightly stronger whip would be good. DK shields should be relevant.

please leave teleport strike alone. Nbs are all about welltimed aggression, which is most effective when relentless. You're not supposed to escape a nb very easily.

I also think wrecking blow should cost more when you miss with it, and keep it the same otherwise. It's a beautifully scary skill.

I want variable detect pots. Farther range shorter duration, shorter range longer duration or whatever.

I want detonation to be assault level two and come with a stam morph, as well.

Essiaga

Metemsycosis wrote: »

Re: shield stacking. It's fine the way it is, but I'd like to see a shield debuff skill at some point. A poison pot or the like.

Reduce the effectiveness of shields by x %.

Win.

Maybe magic shields can be held for too long, relative to other options. bone shield could be changed to remain as long as annulment, for example.

I noticed that in the open world sorcs have trouble 1vs x competent players who know how to drain stamina, and there isn't one class I haven't witnessed drawing the attention of like five to ten people and living for a little while. Temps with endless elusive mists and breaths of life. Purging warding blurring nbs or vigor cloaking stamblades. Dks that have 99.99% damage mitigation, or so it seemed to me. Let sorcs have their shields. This isn't mortal kombat and I think sorcs are vulnerable in every other context besides solo one vs one type of play. Watched a few duels that changed my mind about that too. (Stam dk)


I think Templars are strong. Both varieties. you know when they're missing from the battlefield and they are always a priority target. Who used binding javelin for damage ? They have sweeps magicka snipe and soul assault with a magicka cost. Buff their shield. Buff class crit resistance. Make templar tanking more viable. I'm convinced the dps is fine.

magicka dks with slightly stronger whip would be good. DK shields should be relevant.

please leave teleport strike alone. Nbs are all about welltimed aggression, which is most effective when relentless. You're not supposed to escape a nb very easily.

I also think wrecking blow should cost more when you miss with it, and keep it the same otherwise. It's a beautifully scary skill.

I want variable detect pots. Farther range shorter duration, shorter range longer duration or whatever.

I want detonation to be assault level two and come with a stam morph, as well.

Non-Class shield debuff would be crazy OP for NB/stam build. It would balance nothing. Classes that don't have the burst to get through shields NEED something.

Elusive Mist is not a Templar skill, its a vampire skill. Soul Assault from Soul Magic? Also not a Templar skill. Do you mean Radiant (dodge roll, cloak, purge, interrupt) Destruction?

Crit charge, WB, Magick Det? Sounds OP. Cloak, Ambush, sneak attack, ka-boom!? That would be crazy OP. How would anyone survive that? All shields would need to be like Hardened Ward x 3 to be able to compete.

Magicka Det is the only magicka skill in the Assault tree so I agree it needs moved up at least ahead of Caltrops ... no stam morph. Does Vigor even belong with Assault? Seems more like a Support tree skill.

Rapids should have a magicka morph. Stam users can get with a bow and dodge roll. Magicka classes that lack mobility shouldn't need physical weapons or have to be vamps.

Solariken

Edgar_Baerland wrote: »

I wouldn't want to nerf Sorc/NB. That's counter-intuitive.

Templar and DK just need to be buffed to be on the same level. PVP isn't interesting when 2/4 classes dominate the other two.

Obviously, there are a few exceptional templars and DK's. But PVP isn't about the top 5% of players. Great players with elite gear are going to find ways to excel at whatever class they play. PVP is about having the game be competitive for your casual-to-competitive players.

I can't speak too much to DK but playing a PVP Templar is basically saying I love puncturing sweeps, because its the only thing we have to keep us relevant/in a fight. And it's very, very hard to beat any player with a brain who knows what your one main method of attack. Outside of that we can heal ourselves until someone else shows up or we can throw down a few utility skills. Stamplars obviously struggle on the whole because they're basically melee glass cannons with poor healing.

Mag temp is the only way to go, and the only ranged class skill that's useful regularly is darkflare, and its dodgeable, interruptible, and has a huge cast time.

The best skill/most class defining skill templars have (and people might raise their eyebrows at this) is eclipse. It's an aggressive counter to spellcasters that allows a window for us to go on the offensive. Problem is its EXTREMELY easy to counter if the player is paying attention. The best use of it honestly, is waiting for a sorc to almost finish frags and pop it on them so it fires back. even then you won't have enough time to take them down before they bolt away.

again. WE SHOULD NOT BE LOOKING TO NERF SORC/NB. We should be looking on how to improve Temp/DK

I agree with the spirit of your comment, but I think there is a fundamental problem with the way magicka sorcs (and magicka nightblades to a lesser extent) are designed at the moment. The only reason to have a class system at all is to create a system of strengths and weaknesses wherein group play is a complex game of rock-paper-scissors. This intent fails utterly when some classes are given all of the advantageous gameplay tools while suffering no weaknesses.

If we are going to have a class system, it needs to force the player to build very strongly for one category, be decent in another category, but be pretty bad at the third/fourth. In this game, I think those broad categories are damage output, damage mitigation, mobility, and self-healing.

Magicka sorcs, the greatest offenders, truly have it all. Without much effort, they can be built for maximum damage, maximum mitigation, maximum mobility, and very good self-healing. This is terrible game design, and I can't believe the developers don't have a better handle on this and that they have been silent for SO friggin' long.

I'm not calling for explicit nerfs, but a comprehensive balancing does need to take place. Shield-stacking is the obvious place start and some very good ideas have been put forth. I also believe strongly that self-healing across the board is too powerful and needs to be addressed. This is an MMO afterall and there should be a need to run healers in groups.

Essiaga

Solariken wrote: »

Edgar_Baerland wrote: »

I wouldn't want to nerf Sorc/NB. That's counter-intuitive.

Templar and DK just need to be buffed to be on the same level. PVP isn't interesting when 2/4 classes dominate the other two.

Obviously, there are a few exceptional templars and DK's. But PVP isn't about the top 5% of players. Great players with elite gear are going to find ways to excel at whatever class they play. PVP is about having the game be competitive for your casual-to-competitive players.

I can't speak too much to DK but playing a PVP Templar is basically saying I love puncturing sweeps, because its the only thing we have to keep us relevant/in a fight. And it's very, very hard to beat any player with a brain who knows what your one main method of attack. Outside of that we can heal ourselves until someone else shows up or we can throw down a few utility skills. Stamplars obviously struggle on the whole because they're basically melee glass cannons with poor healing.

Mag temp is the only way to go, and the only ranged class skill that's useful regularly is darkflare, and its dodgeable, interruptible, and has a huge cast time.

The best skill/most class defining skill templars have (and people might raise their eyebrows at this) is eclipse. It's an aggressive counter to spellcasters that allows a window for us to go on the offensive. Problem is its EXTREMELY easy to counter if the player is paying attention. The best use of it honestly, is waiting for a sorc to almost finish frags and pop it on them so it fires back. even then you won't have enough time to take them down before they bolt away.

again. WE SHOULD NOT BE LOOKING TO NERF SORC/NB. We should be looking on how to improve Temp/DK

I agree with the spirit of your comment, but I think there is a fundamental problem with the way magicka sorcs (and magicka nightblades to a lesser extent) are designed at the moment. The only reason to have a class system at all is to create a system of strengths and weaknesses wherein group play is a complex game of rock-paper-scissors. This intent fails utterly when some classes are given all of the advantageous gameplay tools while suffering no weaknesses.

If we are going to have a class system, it needs to force the player to build very strongly for one category, be decent in another category, but be pretty bad at the third/fourth. In this game, I think those broad categories are damage output, damage mitigation, mobility, and self-healing.

Magicka sorcs, the greatest offenders, truly have it all. Without much effort, they can be built for maximum damage, maximum mitigation, maximum mobility, and very good self-healing. This is terrible game design, and I can't believe the developers don't have a better handle on this and that they have been silent for SO friggin' long.

I'm not calling for explicit nerfs, but a comprehensive balancing does need to take place. Shield-stacking is the obvious place start and some very good ideas have been put forth. I also believe strongly that self-healing across the board is too powerful and needs to be addressed.This is an MMO afterall and there should be a need to run healers in groups.

Totally agree ... until the 2 last sentence and it might just be the way I'm reading it. I'm reading this as dedicated healer or dedicated healing class and I think we can get away from that as ZOS has tried and failed to do. The issue becomes the tools in your tool box and crappy class balance. I'd actually love to see only self heals and no group heals in class. Resto Staff would be the group heals and be based purely on level so no class out shines the other. (Play your way.) I'd also love if the Resto Staff could not be used in PVP and other non-class heals were removed.

Dungeons used to require everyone self heal and/or mitigate damage for themselves (Dragon blood, Ward, Siphon Skills) because even a Templar couldn't burst heal a group through. Of course Templars HAD to be dedicated healers because of BOL and the fact that its a group heal. Now its all about min/maxing. If someone dies its the healers fault. If the Boss agros on DPS its the tanks fault. Keep yourself alive and expect random crap to happen.

Dungeons could be more about over coming odds rather then learning mechanics and min/maxing. We have groups wipe because dps doesn't want to ruin their rotation to mitigate or even rez for Wrobel's sake. Still the healers fault though. Look at IC and Ors Walking/World Bosses. Best thing ZOS has done since launch. Random stuff killing random people despite tanking and if you die its on you. Its like they were placed there from a better game. Hope that is what the future of ESO looks like. My only complaint is the damage was a bit high last I bothered with either. BOL doesn't help when you get hit with a 40k one shot.

Trials could still be mechanics driven, as of course is tradition. Some people really enjoy mastering that stuff. No need to take it way.

Look at VMA. DPS wins ... Tanks and Heals go find a DSA group for your V14 Masters drops, with all the DPS farming VMA. Better yet. Just respec DPS. Frankly I think leader boards rewards ruin games. ("Zerg harder ... I'm pushing Emp!" "You must have xxxxxxx DPS to join our Group." "1 tank in a 12 man Trial.") They kill the "play your way" concept. No gear should be locked behind solo content when the game is so unbalanced. Its just perpetuating the DPS FTW!! meta.

Endless progression means sheet gets easy and then we complain there's no challenge. Others are just happy to 1 shot kill everything and see no reason why they shouldn't just win, even in PVP. So we get lots of Sorcs and NBs. Not saying all Sorcs and NB, but there are those that roll a new toon to be OP when the "balance updates" come. There's a lot of dusty DKs out there.

Millerman34n

If u nerf sorc's u will see even more Stan nb's!!!!!! Uhhhh I don't know how to beat sorc's ... So let's make it so shields don't stack and healing ward is terrible!!! Other than you hate for sorc's and Majica builds in general I agree.

Xvorg

Millerman34n wrote: »

If u nerf sorc's u will see even more Stan nb's!!!!!! Uhhhh I don't know how to beat sorc's ... So let's make it so shields don't stack and healing ward is terrible!!! Other than you hate for sorc's and Majica builds in general I agree.

Sorcs, the class that is tankier than the tanks intended.

I would like to see any sorc trying to get down a magicka DK with an obsidian shield as powerful as hardened ward

Minno

Should be noted, any nerfs to purge should not effect the templar's purge skill.

Why? Reasons below:

1) instacast purge only works on you. Allies have to cycle via synergy activate.

2) with blazing shield nerfed and flashes removed, purifying ritual has stepped up to become the mitigation/dmg shield skill templars need to be pvp viable.

Why is this class skill important to templars?
- you can negate curse, crystal frags, meteor's, and a multitude of ranged skills.
- buff to healing skills
- AOE heal.

Nerf alliance skill purge, protect templars!

Edgar_Baerland

@Solariken
Well, you make a convincing argument sir.
The main reason I shy away from nerfs, is because in general I don't like the idea of any one of the classes getting screwed. A game where every class is strong and competitive is just SO much more fun and interesting to play. The last thing I'd want is for Temps and DKs to get buffed and sorcs and NBs get cut down. To me that's just as bad as the way things are now (even though I'm a Temp through and through)

Though I think Sorcs, in all honesty could stand to be toned down slightly in one area, like you said. Shield stacking is the most obvious one; let sorcs stay mobile, powerful, with some self heals, but remove the ability to just pop up insane amounts of temporary health. If I were a sorc I'd think my class should stay very strong and crafty, but have to be tactical in playing keep-away and outmaneuvering opponents. spamming hardened ward is a little ridic, especially given that the templar equivalent (sun shield) got utterly crippled to uselessness.

Minno

Edgar_Baerland wrote: »

@Solariken
Well, you make a convincing argument sir.
The main reason I shy away from nerfs, is because in general I don't like the idea of any one of the classes getting screwed. A game where every class is strong and competitive is just SO much more fun and interesting to play. The last thing I'd want is for Temps and DKs to get buffed and sorcs and NBs get cut down. To me that's just as bad as the way things are now (even though I'm a Temp through and through)

Though I think Sorcs, in all honesty could stand to be toned down slightly in one area, like you said. Shield stacking is the most obvious one; let sorcs stay mobile, powerful, with some self heals, but remove the ability to just pop up insane amounts of temporary health. If I were a sorc I'd think my class should stay very strong and crafty, but have to be tactical in playing keep-away and outmaneuvering opponents. spamming hardened ward is a little ridic, especially given that the templar equivalent (sun shield) got utterly crippled to uselessness.

I agree. No class should not be gimped. Obviously a Templar should not be coming from stealth instagibbing people like a Nightblade. But I should be able to take down a shield or have some reliable burst .

We are all speaking the same language.

(Edit: "should not")

Ragnaroek93

Please stop this madness calling for nerfs here and buffs there. The game is very complicated and NO ONE can actually balance it by saying do this 20 changes and the game will be fine because it won't be. The best thing ZOS can do is to ignore all this nonsense which is even worse than broscience and balance with the help of statistics. We need a PvP Arena for that so ZOS can take a look on the statistic and if a class is far below 50% winrate it should be buffed in slow steps and not by reworking all 4 classes at the same time.

And the next thing is Dragonknight. I'm getting asked why I am wasting my time by leveling a Dragonknight and I should please delete that moronic class because they heard from someone that Dragonknights are useless. What the hell am I missing? In my opinion Dragonknights are extremely strong (on Stamina) and I would prefer my Dragonknight over my OP faceroll Nightblade if she would have vigor yet. I'm pretty sure there will be a lot of QQ after DK gets buffed.

aLi3nZ

What are you suggesting be changed in overlord? If you want another utility bar go ware wolf. Don't touch my overload. I will be using that a lot until I get my proximity detonation.

Witar

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure there will be a lot of QQ after DK gets buffed.

Been this way from the beginning. Nothing to be surprised about.

WreckfulAbandon

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Please stop this madness calling for nerfs here and buffs there. The game is very complicated and NO ONE can actually balance it by saying do this 20 changes and the game will be fine because it won't be. The best thing ZOS can do is to ignore all this nonsense which is even worse than broscience and balance with the help of statistics. We need a PvP Arena for that so ZOS can take a look on the statistic and if a class is far below 50% winrate it should be buffed in slow steps and not by reworking all 4 classes at the same time.

And the next thing is Dragonknight. I'm getting asked why I am wasting my time by leveling a Dragonknight and I should please delete that moronic class because they heard from someone that Dragonknights are useless. What the hell am I missing? In my opinion Dragonknights are extremely strong (on Stamina) and I would prefer my Dragonknight over my OP faceroll Nightblade if she would have vigor yet. I'm pretty sure there will be a lot of QQ after DK gets buffed.

You're right about the whole "slow steps" thing with regards to changes, but I have some bad news for you...



Unless the way PvP changes are implemented is changed to one that slowly tweaks skills in a meta (as opposed to blowing up the old meta and replacing it a couple of times a year) these threads will always happen, since sadly there is very little transparency with how PvP changes are made.

I know I'm not the only one wondering what this "class rebalance" is going to entail so that's why I made this thread, and despite plenty of good points being made and a nice discussion going on, we still haven't been graced with a single nod by anyone who works on this game. It's pretty frustrating and a little disheartening.

I'll support this game for as long as I'm able, it is a great game and I love the Elder Scrolls series, but I'm just worried that once again an update is going to eradicate certain playstyles. If some of my proposed changes seem a little heavy-handed, it's to save something worse from being nerfed: I believe Cloak should get no nerf whatsoever so I focused on synergies with Cloak and stealth in general, same principle with Hardened Ward, etc.

Minno

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Please stop this madness calling for nerfs here and buffs there. The game is very complicated and NO ONE can actually balance it by saying do this 20 changes and the game will be fine because it won't be. The best thing ZOS can do is to ignore all this nonsense which is even worse than broscience and balance with the help of statistics. We need a PvP Arena for that so ZOS can take a look on the statistic and if a class is far below 50% winrate it should be buffed in slow steps and not by reworking all 4 classes at the same time.

And the next thing is Dragonknight. I'm getting asked why I am wasting my time by leveling a Dragonknight and I should please delete that moronic class because they heard from someone that Dragonknights are useless. What the hell am I missing? In my opinion Dragonknights are extremely strong (on Stamina) and I would prefer my Dragonknight over my OP faceroll Nightblade if she would have vigor yet. I'm pretty sure there will be a lot of QQ after DK gets buffed.

You're right about the whole "slow steps" thing with regards to changes, but I have some bad news for you...



Unless the way PvP changes are implemented is changed to one that slowly tweaks skills in a meta (as opposed to blowing up the old meta and replacing it a couple of times a year) these threads will always happen, since sadly there is very little transparency with how PvP changes are made.

I know I'm not the only one wondering what this "class rebalance" is going to entail so that's why I made this thread, and despite plenty of good points being made and a nice discussion going on, we still haven't been graced with a single nod by anyone who works on this game. It's pretty frustrating and a little disheartening.

I'll support this game for as long as I'm able, it is a great game and I love the Elder Scrolls series, but I'm just worried that once again an update is going to eradicate certain playstyles. If some of my proposed changes seem a little heavy-handed, it's to save something worse from being nerfed: I believe Cloak should get no nerf whatsoever so I focused on synergies with Cloak and stealth in general, same principle with Hardened Ward, etc.

I'll support this game till a equally vibrant MMO that's not Korean comes along.

With that said you are correct in that the timeline for these changes need to be on an expedited basis. End-game ESO, sans trials, is dependant on these pvp upgrades. Without them, at a transparent level, the game could fall further and further away from the developers intent.

Solariken

Essiaga wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Edgar_Baerland wrote: »

I wouldn't want to nerf Sorc/NB. That's counter-intuitive.

Templar and DK just need to be buffed to be on the same level. PVP isn't interesting when 2/4 classes dominate the other two.

Obviously, there are a few exceptional templars and DK's. But PVP isn't about the top 5% of players. Great players with elite gear are going to find ways to excel at whatever class they play. PVP is about having the game be competitive for your casual-to-competitive players.

I can't speak too much to DK but playing a PVP Templar is basically saying I love puncturing sweeps, because its the only thing we have to keep us relevant/in a fight. And it's very, very hard to beat any player with a brain who knows what your one main method of attack. Outside of that we can heal ourselves until someone else shows up or we can throw down a few utility skills. Stamplars obviously struggle on the whole because they're basically melee glass cannons with poor healing.

Mag temp is the only way to go, and the only ranged class skill that's useful regularly is darkflare, and its dodgeable, interruptible, and has a huge cast time.

The best skill/most class defining skill templars have (and people might raise their eyebrows at this) is eclipse. It's an aggressive counter to spellcasters that allows a window for us to go on the offensive. Problem is its EXTREMELY easy to counter if the player is paying attention. The best use of it honestly, is waiting for a sorc to almost finish frags and pop it on them so it fires back. even then you won't have enough time to take them down before they bolt away.

again. WE SHOULD NOT BE LOOKING TO NERF SORC/NB. We should be looking on how to improve Temp/DK

I agree with the spirit of your comment, but I think there is a fundamental problem with the way magicka sorcs (and magicka nightblades to a lesser extent) are designed at the moment. The only reason to have a class system at all is to create a system of strengths and weaknesses wherein group play is a complex game of rock-paper-scissors. This intent fails utterly when some classes are given all of the advantageous gameplay tools while suffering no weaknesses.

If we are going to have a class system, it needs to force the player to build very strongly for one category, be decent in another category, but be pretty bad at the third/fourth. In this game, I think those broad categories are damage output, damage mitigation, mobility, and self-healing.

Magicka sorcs, the greatest offenders, truly have it all. Without much effort, they can be built for maximum damage, maximum mitigation, maximum mobility, and very good self-healing. This is terrible game design, and I can't believe the developers don't have a better handle on this and that they have been silent for SO friggin' long.

I'm not calling for explicit nerfs, but a comprehensive balancing does need to take place. Shield-stacking is the obvious place start and some very good ideas have been put forth. I also believe strongly that self-healing across the board is too powerful and needs to be addressed.This is an MMO afterall and there should be a need to run healers in groups.

Totally agree ... until the 2 last sentence and it might just be the way I'm reading it. I'm reading this as dedicated healer or dedicated healing class and I think we can get away from that as ZOS has tried and failed to do. The issue becomes the tools in your tool box and crappy class balance. I'd actually love to see only self heals and no group heals in class. Resto Staff would be the group heals and be based purely on level so no class out shines the other. (Play your way.) I'd also love if the Resto Staff could not be used in PVP and other non-class heals were removed.

Dungeons used to require everyone self heal and/or mitigate damage for themselves (Dragon blood, Ward, Siphon Skills) because even a Templar couldn't burst heal a group through. Of course Templars HAD to be dedicated healers because of BOL and the fact that its a group heal. Now its all about min/maxing. If someone dies its the healers fault. If the Boss agros on DPS its the tanks fault. Keep yourself alive and expect random crap to happen.

Dungeons could be more about over coming odds rather then learning mechanics and min/maxing. We have groups wipe because dps doesn't want to ruin their rotation to mitigate or even rez for Wrobel's sake. Still the healers fault though. Look at IC and Ors Walking/World Bosses. Best thing ZOS has done since launch. Random stuff killing random people despite tanking and if you die its on you. Its like they were placed there from a better game. Hope that is what the future of ESO looks like. My only complaint is the damage was a bit high last I bothered with either. BOL doesn't help when you get hit with a 40k one shot.

Trials could still be mechanics driven, as of course is tradition. Some people really enjoy mastering that stuff. No need to take it way.

Look at VMA. DPS wins ... Tanks and Heals go find a DSA group for your V14 Masters drops, with all the DPS farming VMA. Better yet. Just respec DPS. Frankly I think leader boards rewards ruin games. ("Zerg harder ... I'm pushing Emp!" "You must have xxxxxxx DPS to join our Group." "1 tank in a 12 man Trial.") They kill the "play your way" concept. No gear should be locked behind solo content when the game is so unbalanced. Its just perpetuating the DPS FTW!! meta.

Endless progression means sheet gets easy and then we complain there's no challenge. Others are just happy to 1 shot kill everything and see no reason why they shouldn't just win, even in PVP. So we get lots of Sorcs and NBs. Not saying all Sorcs and NB, but there are those that roll a new toon to be OP when the "balance updates" come. There's a lot of dusty DKs out there.

I would very much support a design decision to COMPLETELY remove all group heals from ALL class trees and make the resto staff the exclusive source of group heals. I think this would be very, very good for the game.

ZOS would then be able to make Templars competitive with regard to damage output and utility, no longer slave to the mentality of "but they have Breath of Life!" that has been holding them back. The restoring light tree could still contain some nuance passives that give them a competitive edge in healing overall but at the end of the day they would be much easier to balance with the other classes.

I definitely think group healing should still be available (and prominent) in PvP though. A really fun aspect of PvP is discovering who the healer is and giving everything you've got to nuke them down. Also having to protect your healer adds a fun layer of strategy that I would surely miss.

Solariken

Edgar_Baerland wrote: »

I wouldn't want to nerf Sorc/NB. That's counter-intuitive.

Templar and DK just need to be buffed to be on the same level. PVP isn't interesting when 2/4 classes dominate the other two.

Obviously, there are a few exceptional templars and DK's. But PVP isn't about the top 5% of players. Great players with elite gear are going to find ways to excel at whatever class they play. PVP is about having the game be competitive for your casual-to-competitive players.

I can't speak too much to DK but playing a PVP Templar is basically saying I love puncturing sweeps, because its the only thing we have to keep us relevant/in a fight. And it's very, very hard to beat any player with a brain who knows what your one main method of attack. Outside of that we can heal ourselves until someone else shows up or we can throw down a few utility skills. Stamplars obviously struggle on the whole because they're basically melee glass cannons with poor healing.

Mag temp is the only way to go, and the only ranged class skill that's useful regularly is darkflare, and its dodgeable, interruptible, and has a huge cast time.

The best skill/most class defining skill templars have (and people might raise their eyebrows at this) is eclipse. It's an aggressive counter to spellcasters that allows a window for us to go on the offensive. Problem is its EXTREMELY easy to counter if the player is paying attention. The best use of it honestly, is waiting for a sorc to almost finish frags and pop it on them so it fires back. even then you won't have enough time to take them down before they bolt away.

again. WE SHOULD NOT BE LOOKING TO NERF SORC/NB. We should be looking on how to improve Temp/DK

I understand the fear of the nerf bat, but I don't understand why the playerbase is always so unwilling to even discuss design adjustments that may tone down the effectiveness of certain builds. The philosophy of "NO NERFS, ONLY BUFFS TO OTHER CLASSES" is not sustainable because eventually every class will become homogeneous, being excellent at everything and having no weakness. See my other posts about class design and the necessity of rock-paper-scissors.

DKs and Templars need buffs/changes because ZOS has (probably unknowingly) forced the intended gameplay of these classes to become obsolete (tanking and sustained DPS especially).

Sorcerers and Nightblades are extremely well-designed in gameplay at this point, but both need very slight adjustments to keep them within the bounds of their design. Neither should be excellent at damage soaking when they are built for burst and escape/mobility.

I've already suggested that active damage shields need a complete overhaul across the board. Obviously this will affect magicka Sorcs and NBs the most but it is completely necessary. There are great suggestions floating around the forums regarding how shields scale, what the strengths/weaknesses should be, and alternatives to shield stacking in general.

Additionally, it doesn't make any sense that stacking magicka increases damage output, shield strength, and self-healing together. There needs to be a choice between building for one category at the expense of the others. There are great suggestions about these as well, such as using health to scale shields.

I welcome nerfs and balance changes when they are justified, but ZOS ABSOLUTELY MUST STOP making massive amounts of balance changes to every class all at once. They always end up doing just as much harm as good. They need to be addressing class balance in an incremental fashion AT LEAST monthly.

CP5

Solariken wrote: »

Edgar_Baerland wrote: »

I wouldn't want to nerf Sorc/NB. That's counter-intuitive.

Templar and DK just need to be buffed to be on the same level. PVP isn't interesting when 2/4 classes dominate the other two.

Obviously, there are a few exceptional templars and DK's. But PVP isn't about the top 5% of players. Great players with elite gear are going to find ways to excel at whatever class they play. PVP is about having the game be competitive for your casual-to-competitive players.

I can't speak too much to DK but playing a PVP Templar is basically saying I love puncturing sweeps, because its the only thing we have to keep us relevant/in a fight. And it's very, very hard to beat any player with a brain who knows what your one main method of attack. Outside of that we can heal ourselves until someone else shows up or we can throw down a few utility skills. Stamplars obviously struggle on the whole because they're basically melee glass cannons with poor healing.

Mag temp is the only way to go, and the only ranged class skill that's useful regularly is darkflare, and its dodgeable, interruptible, and has a huge cast time.

The best skill/most class defining skill templars have (and people might raise their eyebrows at this) is eclipse. It's an aggressive counter to spellcasters that allows a window for us to go on the offensive. Problem is its EXTREMELY easy to counter if the player is paying attention. The best use of it honestly, is waiting for a sorc to almost finish frags and pop it on them so it fires back. even then you won't have enough time to take them down before they bolt away.

again. WE SHOULD NOT BE LOOKING TO NERF SORC/NB. We should be looking on how to improve Temp/DK

I understand the fear of the nerf bat, but I don't understand why the playerbase is always so unwilling to even discuss design adjustments that may tone down the effectiveness of certain builds. The philosophy of "NO NERFS, ONLY BUFFS TO OTHER CLASSES" is not sustainable because eventually every class will become homogeneous, being excellent at everything and having no weakness. See my other posts about class design and the necessity of rock-paper-scissors.

DKs and Templars need buffs/changes because ZOS has (probably unknowingly) forced the intended gameplay of these classes to become obsolete (tanking and sustained DPS especially).

Sorcerers and Nightblades are extremely well-designed in gameplay at this point, but both need very slight adjustments to keep them within the bounds of their design. Neither should be excellent at damage soaking when they are built for burst and escape/mobility.

I've already suggested that active damage shields need a complete overhaul across the board. Obviously this will affect magicka Sorcs and NBs the most but it is completely necessary. There are great suggestions floating around the forums regarding how shields scale, what the strengths/weaknesses should be, and alternatives to shield stacking in general.

Additionally, it doesn't make any sense that stacking magicka increases damage output, shield strength, and self-healing together. There needs to be a choice between building for one category at the expense of the others. There are great suggestions about these as well, such as using health to scale shields.

I welcome nerfs and balance changes when they are justified, but ZOS ABSOLUTELY MUST STOP making massive amounts of balance changes to every class all at once. They always end up doing just as much harm as good. They need to be addressing class balance in an incremental fashion AT LEAST monthly.

Sorry, I can't give more agrees and awesomes to go with this post. It makes sense that people don't want the words 'nerf' anywhere near what they like but I really wish more people would understand these points. To people who read the above post but still are a bit lost here's an example.

One, single skill is overpowered (imagining the whole game is perfectly balanced), do you A. Nerf this one skill back into line or B. Buff every skill, all health pools (to compensate for buffed damage), all mobs, everything, so that at the end of the day you end up with a situation where the game is just as balanced, but the one skill was brought into line by changing literally everything else in game? Sure what we have is not as extreme, but you can't have a balanced game without nerfs unless you expect everything to inflate, not to mention the excessive amount of work needed.

Stravokov

Corellon Thromorin wrote: »

We should compile the threads ZOS should ignore. Let's start with this one on the list.

why? they will ignore it regardless. no need to waste your time.

Septimus_Magna

CP5 wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Edgar_Baerland wrote: »

I wouldn't want to nerf Sorc/NB. That's counter-intuitive.

Templar and DK just need to be buffed to be on the same level. PVP isn't interesting when 2/4 classes dominate the other two.

Obviously, there are a few exceptional templars and DK's. But PVP isn't about the top 5% of players. Great players with elite gear are going to find ways to excel at whatever class they play. PVP is about having the game be competitive for your casual-to-competitive players.

I can't speak too much to DK but playing a PVP Templar is basically saying I love puncturing sweeps, because its the only thing we have to keep us relevant/in a fight. And it's very, very hard to beat any player with a brain who knows what your one main method of attack. Outside of that we can heal ourselves until someone else shows up or we can throw down a few utility skills. Stamplars obviously struggle on the whole because they're basically melee glass cannons with poor healing.

Mag temp is the only way to go, and the only ranged class skill that's useful regularly is darkflare, and its dodgeable, interruptible, and has a huge cast time.

The best skill/most class defining skill templars have (and people might raise their eyebrows at this) is eclipse. It's an aggressive counter to spellcasters that allows a window for us to go on the offensive. Problem is its EXTREMELY easy to counter if the player is paying attention. The best use of it honestly, is waiting for a sorc to almost finish frags and pop it on them so it fires back. even then you won't have enough time to take them down before they bolt away.

again. WE SHOULD NOT BE LOOKING TO NERF SORC/NB. We should be looking on how to improve Temp/DK

I understand the fear of the nerf bat, but I don't understand why the playerbase is always so unwilling to even discuss design adjustments that may tone down the effectiveness of certain builds. The philosophy of "NO NERFS, ONLY BUFFS TO OTHER CLASSES" is not sustainable because eventually every class will become homogeneous, being excellent at everything and having no weakness. See my other posts about class design and the necessity of rock-paper-scissors.

DKs and Templars need buffs/changes because ZOS has (probably unknowingly) forced the intended gameplay of these classes to become obsolete (tanking and sustained DPS especially).

Sorcerers and Nightblades are extremely well-designed in gameplay at this point, but both need very slight adjustments to keep them within the bounds of their design. Neither should be excellent at damage soaking when they are built for burst and escape/mobility.

I've already suggested that active damage shields need a complete overhaul across the board. Obviously this will affect magicka Sorcs and NBs the most but it is completely necessary. There are great suggestions floating around the forums regarding how shields scale, what the strengths/weaknesses should be, and alternatives to shield stacking in general.

Additionally, it doesn't make any sense that stacking magicka increases damage output, shield strength, and self-healing together. There needs to be a choice between building for one category at the expense of the others. There are great suggestions about these as well, such as using health to scale shields.

I welcome nerfs and balance changes when they are justified, but ZOS ABSOLUTELY MUST STOP making massive amounts of balance changes to every class all at once. They always end up doing just as much harm as good. They need to be addressing class balance in an incremental fashion AT LEAST monthly.

Sorry, I can't give more agrees and awesomes to go with this post. It makes sense that people don't want the words 'nerf' anywhere near what they like but I really wish more people would understand these points. To people who read the above post but still are a bit lost here's an example.

One, single skill is overpowered (imagining the whole game is perfectly balanced), do you A. Nerf this one skill back into line or B. Buff every skill, all health pools (to compensate for buffed damage), all mobs, everything, so that at the end of the day you end up with a situation where the game is just as balanced, but the one skill was brought into line by changing literally everything else in game? Sure what we have is not as extreme, but you can't have a balanced game without nerfs unless you expect everything to inflate, not to mention the excessive amount of work needed.

Unfortunately its not so black and white in the case of class balance.

I dont think there's a single case where a single skill is OP, its the synergy with other skills that makes them strong.

For example, you can spam Hardened Ward all you like but without Healing Ward you'll eventually die to a hard CC and well-timed burst. So should Hardened Ward be nerfed? Should Healing Ward be nerfed? Should the burst be buffed? Or should the shield stacking mechanism be changed?

There are so many variables that affect class balance, change one variable too much and it becomes rock always wins from scissors story (and I dont think anyone would want something like that).

In terms of class balance I think Templars and magicka DKs need the some improvement, the rest seems to be on par.

kaithuzar

Makkir wrote: »

Rayste wrote: »

12) Healing Ward, many of you will argue, is OP and needs nerfed, but I view it as a good tool to use against that OP stamina damage that is running rampant in Cyrodiil. I'm sure this will warrant further discussion.

No.

Currently sorcs do not have any class heals. You ruin Healing Ward and suddenly sorcs wont be taken into vet groups to heal.

Healing Ward is THE staple heal for any Sorc that is healing in PvE.

That's funny, I heard about sorc's just using crit surge to heal themselves through the entire vet Maelstrom Arena

kaithuzar

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Can we get some experienced PvPers in here to weigh in on these proposed changes and perhaps add to the conversation without dismissing everything offhand?

@Sypher
@FENGRUSH
@Joy_Division
@Akinos
@ChannelTribes
@Rylana
@Alcast
@Zavus
@Mythk
@Crown
@sabresandiego_ESO
@Derra
@Ezareth
@Satiar
@Teargrants
@WRX

Obviously I missed some ppl but if half of you provide your input this thread will be better for it. I've seen some of you in the forums talking sense, seen some vids, fought against others, fought with others still, hell I even summoned my brother here.

Let's turn this discussion up to 11.

There's a few people I would definitely not put on that list XD

Alcast

It is simple, no matter what ZOS does, they will f...it up anyways

Crown

We can make all the suggestions that we want, ultimately what would be best in my opinion is if @ZOS_BrianWheeler @Wrobel and whoever else is involved would give us an indication of what they're THINKING ABOUT for any particular skill, the reasoning for it, and what they would like to see different. We could then have an entire thread debating each of the points, and the person(s) ultimately responsible for each point would have a good reference model for input from the players. As it stands, the mish mash of comments from some informed/educated/intelligent people mixed in with complete stupidity that comes up every time there's a discussion like this probably doesn't help the decision makers who DO NOT play the game as much as many of us do, and haven't lived through all the changes to work out the new min/max and numbers for each revision.

If they don't have someone who is able / willing to do that, and they want what's best for their game, then they should hire someone to do so. Someone who has played the game with a minimum of 50 days /played in PvP (arbitrary number that seems reasonable to me).

Many of us who make comments here are ***. We know that we're ***, and it's just part of our nature. If I think you've done something stupid to a game that I love to play, I will call you out on it. That doesn't mean that I'm right, or that there wouldn't be a better way to do so, though by this point in the lifecycle of the game I'm sure that the ZOS people can appreciate our being frustrated at more than a few things.

I'm going to start an experiment to keep the information organized and relevant. I've started a new thread to discuss ONLY Teleport Strike and morphs (Ambush and Lotus Fan). Lets see if that works any better.

havok561

dday3six wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

DK and to a much lesser extent Templar need to be looked at.p, and updated first. Once they are, and the dust has settles. Then, if needed, Sorc and NB should be re-evaluated. Asking for nerfs to either NB or Sorc before DK and Templar have had their issues addressed is asking that they be balanced against something that as we know is already unbalanced.

At the very least some of the aforementioned synergies that led to the mass QQ against abilities like Cloak and Hardened could be addressed without ruining the class, amirite?

Some of the ppl complaining about Hardened probably don't fully appreciate that it's Harness that is allowing the sorc to shrug off all their damage.

Ditto with some of the Cloak whiners, the current mechanics allow NB's to do too much while Cloaked. In the other Elder Scrolls games doing anything while invisible took you out of it, so why should players in an MMO get to buff and heal while invisible? It seems like a commonsense change to me and it would actually take the heat off of Cloak (coincidentally most of the heat is already off Cloak as ppl realized it was only in IC that Cloak by itself could be considered really powerful)

Shield stacking it's self isn't the issue it's that they cannot be crit or dot'ed. Many Sorcs aren't using Harness Magicka anymore as Hardened Ward + Healing Ward is enough. The real trouble, aside from no crit/dot, is that many players don't know how to CC effectively. It's surprising just how many players don't know just how important proper CC usage is.

The thing with Teleport and it's morphs locking people out of skills is the same with all gap closers. It's the game's net coding that pauses the player while the other player is closing the distance. Gap closers are needed, but they are implemented poorly.

You cannot compare singleplayer TES titles for ESO multiplayer aspects. If you ask me, the game would be a lot better if some players would remember it's both a TES title as well as an MMO and thus stop directly comparing ESO to other TES series titles to justify bad suggestions and decisions alike.

That said buffs/heals in stealth solidify stealth game play, and the style is commonly seen and enjoyed enough to warrant supporting. If NB's couldn't buff or heal in cloak they are pretty much neutered. Both rely on the ability to reset encounters as their main defensive option. If it's effectiveness were lessened that much they would need something to take it's place.

@dday3six I agree 100% But also they should not have this effect current pve kind of like ffxiv. If any changes carry over to pve I'd most likely retire this game. It's great now but but I'm pretty zos doing major balancing could potentially be dangerous if not done properly.

davey1107

Sorry, OP, but it totally makes sense in the context of the story to have Nighblades with a heavy stealth factor. Just lamely suggesting that all abilities wreck cloak won't make this a better game, it will make it a zergier game (as if that's possible).

Stealth is the centerpiece of the Nighblade build. They will totally prep for a fight from stealth, ambush you, then ruin your world while you're stunned. Don't like it? Build better armor - you've probably give up a lot of defense so you can run w the Zerg. If it's not an armor issue, stop running around Cyrodiil away from your group while stupidly standing up in the open. There are assassins about - what the hell do you expect to happen?

CP5

davey1107 wrote: »

Sorry, OP, but it totally makes sense in the context of the story to have Nighblades with a heavy stealth factor. Just lamely suggesting that all abilities wreck cloak won't make this a better game, it will make it a zergier game (as if that's possible).

Stealth is the centerpiece of the Nighblade build. They will totally prep for a fight from stealth, ambush you, then ruin your world while you're stunned. Don't like it? Build better armor - you've probably give up a lot of defense so you can run w the Zerg. If it's not an armor issue, stop running around Cyrodiil away from your group while stupidly standing up in the open. There are assassins about - what the hell do you expect to happen?

Sorry, didn't notice all nightblades had to run stealth-gank builds. Guess all the sap tanks, healers, and 'anythigelser's need to all respec.

BuggeX

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

To my understanding ZOS is planning a major class rebalance/overhaul sometime in early 2016. There are a ton of threads floating around discussing this or that aspect of PvP that have plenty of merit, but I would like to consolidate the discussion for the benefit of all (and ZOS ) so let's do that. This is a discussion for the PvP aspects of the game, but feel free to chime in if any of the proposed changes/tweaks would adversely affect PvE to a great extent. This discussion should be in the best interest of PvPers to promote a more balanced battlefield in Cyrodiil but not at the expense of the PvE content most of us participate in as well.

1) Harness Magicka should not stack with Hardened Ward. Period. I shouldn't have to explain why at this point.

thats just fine, you should just be able to crit this damn shilds, and dots, if they casted before the shild, should Bypass the shild after

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

2) Any and every ability should take the user out of stealth/Cloak. Yes, this includes Vigor, Camo Hunter, Rally, etc.

cam/evil hunter should not proc at non vamps/ww -- imo

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

3) Surprise Attack should at the very minimum lose its built in armor debuff, it is too stupid OP atm.

nerf the Overall dmg from suprise atk and give it a 200% Bonus out of stealth.

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

4) Dragon Blood should actually heal the 33% of missing health it says it does. No brainer.

i did a 8k heal yesterday..... well i didnt left the executephase and dieddiedied..........

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

5) If we must have AoE caps, Barrier and Purge need to be subject to them as well.

cap anything or uncap anything, btw i noticed a few days ago, that prox.det. hit 10ppls, can someone confim this?

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

7) Ambush should not be locking ppl out of using abilities.

like suprise atk, nerf Overall dmg and give it a Bonus out of stealth, also minimun range

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

9) Eclipse should not be limited to one target if it is CC breakable.

first fix the whole eclips,
dk cant use whipe
dk sucide himself with Talons
one time i even killed myself with soulassault

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

10) Camo Hunter should not proc the stealth bonus more than once. Period. If more calculations are necessary to make this happen then so be it.

i noticed something strange, well if recount is accurate. procs etcs are 1ms before the hit itself.
if a vamp dk has wings up, and get hit by snipe from stealth, camo will still proc even when the snipe gets reflected.
this shouldn happen, the same happens with random stuns from stealth

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

14) DK whip needs a slight damage buff, it really is pathetic.

+1

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

15) If you're a vamp/werewolf, you shouldn't need a skill slotted to enjoy the perks thereof, cause DB will still wreck you without it.

Vamp should not Need to Slot a skill, agree
for ww, they should get rid of the Stamina regen, ww transfrom is right now rly strong and should be fine as it is.
fighterguild just proc while you transformed

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

16) DK Chains should be less random.

i tryed to run now over the we with chains insteed of Invasion, chains are nice if they work.
you can even pull someone out of the door when he trys to enter it.
BUT, its a bugged *** asschain like ass, it doesnt even work on a flat area, like under the maindoor from sej or nikels, it just dosnt work, also on the maindoor are from ash it just dosnt work, well the *** never works when it should work.
But i can pull myself down from a outpost....
either make it work, or Change it to a typicall gap closer which doesnt sux 80% the time

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

17) I dunno about everyone else, but I don't think immovable potions should be a thing.

this is my only Option to survive the 80% stamblades fear.
i cant brake free more than 2-3 times and block, i as magicka dk also dont have the burst to end the fight fast enought nor does a temp or dk has a escape, so this pots, with Speed and stamrecover, is my only escape/survivel skill i have right now