Upcoming Class Rebalance

Tdroid

I want soft-caps back to begin with, then everything else can balance on top of that.

Johngo0036

@DaveMoeDee - I do agree with you, WW had a LOAD of buffs to the skills that they have and are DAMN OP Now,
the only skill tree that has a fear that has no CC immunity,

Also the damage output of a WW is awesome,
I actually wish that some of the Vamp skills could get a rework.....

Joy_Division

To your points:

Shields need a total reword so they aren't redundant and can't stack. Go ahead and make harness unstackable, but no sorc will use it because hardened is larger and blocks physical damage as well.

I don't see the logic why some abilities pull you out and some don't. I prefer consistency. I don't mind how it kind of is now; I can hear stealthed players' skills, although I can't see them.

Surprise is a very strong spam skill. Not a fan of nerfs; prefer other spams be brought to the same level of effectiveness.

Dragon Blood is bad, even if you make it 33% of missing health because it does not scale at a time when our spellpower and magicka are going through the roof.

I just prefer to remove AoE caps. As for barrier and purge, these skills need revision rather than strictly nerfing.

Ye toppling should not be bugged

Ambush should have a minimum distance and should not auto-immobilize players. It should also take you out of invisibility.

Overload needs a bar because you lose access to weapons. I do think, however, that once the bar is off, buffs should not carry over if skill is not on regular bar. Also Overload heavy attack is pathetic.

Eclipse should not be restricted to one target period.

Camo hunter should obey it's own cooldown rules from stealth.

Molten armaments needs to be redesigned and reverted to something similar to the original skill. Heavy attacks are boring and skills that modify them need to do just more than extra damage to make them interesting.

I do not think healing Ward is OP. Healing ward in conjunction with other shields is, but that's not a healing ward problem.

Templar ultimates are poor. Radial Sweep feel like a normal skill, Nova's synergy has to be activated yet has neither priority nor a big enough activation radius, and Rite of Passage needs to do more than it does (and bring back the original animation, the new spitting one is bad) and barrier needs to do less tha it does so we have options and variety and not just damage shields for PvP.

As far as I know, dawnbreaker and fighter's guild passives dont proc on werewovlve in human form. Thus I don't think they should just get free regen without slotting the ultimate.

Chains needs to be reformed. One nerf i the "get over here" option and the other is a gap closer.

Immovable pots are fine. Speaking in immovable, the skill has been woefully inefficient since 1.6.

WreckfulAbandon

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

The Vamp/WW suggestion is poorly thought out.

Vamp should get buffs so long as they also have debuffs, like with fire damage. Since vamps always have certain debuffs, there is nothing wrong with them also always having buffs, regardless of what is slotted.

This is not the case for WW. I say this as someone who has multiple magicka characters that are still WW from back when it was a no cost stam regen boost. That was unacceptable design, though all my higher level characters are still werewolves since there was no reason to get cured.

If you don't want to require slotting a WW ability to get the buff, than there needs to be some sort of debuff that WW always have, even when not in WW form. We can't go back to giving free buffs to WW with zero cost.

Good point, I guess what I was trying to say is that vamps shouldn't have to slot a skill but WW should. I briefly forgot about when Cyrodiil was 90% WW... I personally don't have any vamps/WW cause DB of Smiting is a thing.

Johngo0036 wrote: »

I agree with all except 2.

Also i feel that the stamina drain is a little to high when blocking of dodge rolling,

You missed,
Dark cloak or any morphs should be exponentially more expensive, Just like streak...
It is unfair that one mobility/get away skill is penalized while another remains unpenalized for over usage..

I didn't miss it, I purposely left it out

NB's are squishy as it is, I think Cloak should be left alone and some of the synergies looked at instead, namely, Cloaking then reappearing buffed with full health.

Ezareth wrote: »

I'll point out the things of most interest to me.

Harness magicka shouldn't stack with Hardened. Being able to prebuff your hitpoints with 2 different shields that last 20+ seconds is too strong.

The fact Harness currently gives you magicka is just something else entirely that needs addressed.

I don't believe abilities should take you out of stealth but I can get behind to abilities pulling you out of cloak. If you're going to stealth attack something you need the ability to self-buff yourself.

Surprise attack I feel is balanced where it is. Proccing shadow barrier is a nice bonus but not OP.

Agree on GDB and whip.

AoE caps are it's own discussion.

Ministun should just be removed from ambush or the stun from gap closers needs removed. One or the other. Either way ambush should definitely take you out of invis and it doesn't.

I think the heal on healing ward should be slightly buffed and the shield value should be slightly nerfed. That is the best way to balance it without nerfing too hard. The primary difference is sorcs (only class running 100 bastion) will benefit less from it and it.

Immovable pots are fine, they have an opportunity cost and choosing the right pot use is often the difference between life and death.

Eclipse I agree should be able to be cast on multiple targets, but I don't see them making a reversal on that one.

Personally I think Overload is fine. The third bar has some utility but it is absolutely needed since you lose access to all of your weapon skills and your weapon passives when you're in overload mode. I over load is the last thing that makes sorc fun for me to play because it gives you a form of complicated combat rotation of weapon swapping and critting.

If there weren't so many counters to it I'd say the damage could be toned down but to be honest it's the wrecking blow of Magick damage. The counters exist and its one wing flap or defensive posture/eclipse from killing the sorc using it.

I'm glad there are other good players who speak the same language as me when it comes to Harness Magicka. Honestly I can make my peace with the way Overload is if I don't have to worry about climbing Mt. Everest every time I want to damage a sorc with magic damage.

k2blader

If you want to nerf class abilities, you should also suggest buffs to the class to keep a sense of balance.

I don't believe most posters comprehend the difficulty of balance. The majority of folks call for nerfs for personal gain and fail to consider the array of consequences.

I don't know why the continuing mess of AoE spam is conveniently overlooked. It is so bad.

Abob

The truth is this:

1. NB's, both magicka and stamina, need some buffs for pvp, increase their sustain and buff cloak, it has too many counters, and it makes nb's feel underpowered against other classes. I'd say it would be optimal to add a cooldown of 1 minute after cloak has bien countered, so that it can't be countered again until the minute has passed. Also, increased damage when coming out of cloak for 20 secs (damage is too low) and increased resource regeneration while cloaked, as well as reduce cloak magicka cost by 50%.

2. Sorcs feel too underpowered too, their sustain is subpar when compared to other classes (e.g. templar) so the Best solution would be to increase regeneration per shield stacked, and to this add some more spell damage per shield stacked should be added. Some passives to increase shield strength per shield stacked would be nice too. Stamina sorcs are really weak too, increase their mobility and buff them.

3. DK's, especially stamina, are really weak nowadays, their sustain is really low and having the only ult in game scaling off physical damage makes them feel discriminated, so please just increase damage done or change it to a combination of magicka and physical damage for it to be useful. Make them have 2k stamina regen just from passives.

4. Templars passives are too OP, especially for stamina, decrease balanced warrior passive by 50%. To balance their regen, make repentance only give 5% increase regen instead of 10%. Nerf eclipse, it completely negates magicka classes. Just nerf templars in general, please.

Thank you.

Van_0S

Abob wrote: »

The truth is this:

4. Templars passives are too OP, especially for stamina, decrease balanced warrior passive by 50%. To balance their regen, make repentance only give 5% increase regen instead of 10%. Nerf eclipse, it completely negates magicka classes. Just nerf templars in general, please.

Thank you.

Why the hate towards templars?
if you haven't noticed by now, templars are the only class that can save your butt in PvP and PvE dungeons.

EDIT: ZOS, what Abob said, do the opposite.

Ashamray

Abob wrote: »

The truth is this:

1. NB's, both magicka and stamina, need some buffs for pvp, increase their sustain and buff cloak, it has too many counters, and it makes nb's feel underpowered against other classes. I'd say it would be optimal to add a cooldown of 1 minute after cloak has bien countered, so that it can't be countered again until the minute has passed. Also, increased damage when coming out of cloak for 20 secs (damage is too low) and increased resource regeneration while cloaked, as well as reduce cloak magicka cost by 50%.

2. Sorcs feel too underpowered too, their sustain is subpar when compared to other classes (e.g. templar) so the Best solution would be to increase regeneration per shield stacked, and to this add some more spell damage per shield stacked should be added. Some passives to increase shield strength per shield stacked would be nice too. Stamina sorcs are really weak too, increase their mobility and buff them.

3. DK's, especially stamina, are really weak nowadays, their sustain is really low and having the only ult in game scaling off physical damage makes them feel discriminated, so please just increase damage done or change it to a combination of magicka and physical damage for it to be useful. Make them have 2k stamina regen just from passives.

4. Templars passives are too OP, especially for stamina, decrease balanced warrior passive by 50%. To balance their regen, make repentance only give 5% increase regen instead of 10%. Nerf eclipse, it completely negates magicka classes. Just nerf templars in general, please.

Thank you.

agree, nothing to add.

Torbschka

Ashamray wrote: »

Abob wrote: »

The truth is this:

1. NB's, both magicka and stamina, need some buffs for pvp, increase their sustain and buff cloak, it has too many counters, and it makes nb's feel underpowered against other classes. I'd say it would be optimal to add a cooldown of 1 minute after cloak has bien countered, so that it can't be countered again until the minute has passed. Also, increased damage when coming out of cloak for 20 secs (damage is too low) and increased resource regeneration while cloaked, as well as reduce cloak magicka cost by 50%.

2. Sorcs feel too underpowered too, their sustain is subpar when compared to other classes (e.g. templar) so the Best solution would be to increase regeneration per shield stacked, and to this add some more spell damage per shield stacked should be added. Some passives to increase shield strength per shield stacked would be nice too. Stamina sorcs are really weak too, increase their mobility and buff them.

3. DK's, especially stamina, are really weak nowadays, their sustain is really low and having the only ult in game scaling off physical damage makes them feel discriminated, so please just increase damage done or change it to a combination of magicka and physical damage for it to be useful. Make them have 2k stamina regen just from passives.

4. Templars passives are too OP, especially for stamina, decrease balanced warrior passive by 50%. To balance their regen, make repentance only give 5% increase regen instead of 10%. Nerf eclipse, it completely negates magicka classes. Just nerf templars in general, please.

Thank you.

agree, nothing to add.

ZOS plz

dday3six

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

DK and to a much lesser extent Templar need to be looked at.p, and updated first. Once they are, and the dust has settles. Then, if needed, Sorc and NB should be re-evaluated. Asking for nerfs to either NB or Sorc before DK and Templar have had their issues addressed is asking that they be balanced against something that as we know is already unbalanced.

At the very least some of the aforementioned synergies that led to the mass QQ against abilities like Cloak and Hardened could be addressed without ruining the class, amirite?

Some of the ppl complaining about Hardened probably don't fully appreciate that it's Harness that is allowing the sorc to shrug off all their damage.

Ditto with some of the Cloak whiners, the current mechanics allow NB's to do too much while Cloaked. In the other Elder Scrolls games doing anything while invisible took you out of it, so why should players in an MMO get to buff and heal while invisible? It seems like a commonsense change to me and it would actually take the heat off of Cloak (coincidentally most of the heat is already off Cloak as ppl realized it was only in IC that Cloak by itself could be considered really powerful)

Shield stacking it's self isn't the issue it's that they cannot be crit or dot'ed. Many Sorcs aren't using Harness Magicka anymore as Hardened Ward + Healing Ward is enough. The real trouble, aside from no crit/dot, is that many players don't know how to CC effectively. It's surprising just how many players don't know just how important proper CC usage is.

The thing with Teleport and it's morphs locking people out of skills is the same with all gap closers. It's the game's net coding that pauses the player while the other player is closing the distance. Gap closers are needed, but they are implemented poorly.

You cannot compare singleplayer TES titles for ESO multiplayer aspects. If you ask me, the game would be a lot better if some players would remember it's both a TES title as well as an MMO and thus stop directly comparing ESO to other TES series titles to justify bad suggestions and decisions alike.

That said buffs/heals in stealth solidify stealth game play, and the style is commonly seen and enjoyed enough to warrant supporting. If NB's couldn't buff or heal in cloak they are pretty much neutered. Both rely on the ability to reset encounters as their main defensive option. If it's effectiveness were lessened that much they would need something to take it's place.

Akinos

Abob wrote: »

The truth is this:


4. Templars passives are too OP, especially for stamina, decrease balanced warrior passive by 50%. To balance their regen, make repentance only give 5% increase regen instead of 10%. Nerf eclipse, it completely negates magicka classes. Just nerf templars in general, please.

Thank you.

LoL, Hope you aren't serious with this.

@WreckfulAbandon I don't think I need to add anything, I basically agree with your OP.

I'm just getting tired of waiting for fixes that should of happened months ago, now we gotta wait for a DLC to get them....

Mythk

Abob wrote: »

The truth is this:

1. NB's, both magicka and stamina, need some buffs for pvp, increase their sustain and buff cloak, it has too many counters, and it makes nb's feel underpowered against other classes. I'd say it would be optimal to add a cooldown of 1 minute after cloak has bien countered, so that it can't be countered again until the minute has passed. Also, increased damage when coming out of cloak for 20 secs (damage is too low) and increased resource regeneration while cloaked, as well as reduce cloak magicka cost by 50%.

2. Sorcs feel too underpowered too, their sustain is subpar when compared to other classes (e.g. templar) so the Best solution would be to increase regeneration per shield stacked, and to this add some more spell damage per shield stacked should be added. Some passives to increase shield strength per shield stacked would be nice too. Stamina sorcs are really weak too, increase their mobility and buff them.

3. DK's, especially stamina, are really weak nowadays, their sustain is really low and having the only ult in game scaling off physical damage makes them feel discriminated, so please just increase damage done or change it to a combination of magicka and physical damage for it to be useful. Make them have 2k stamina regen just from passives.

4. Templars passives are too OP, especially for stamina, decrease balanced warrior passive by 50%. To balance their regen, make repentance only give 5% increase regen instead of 10%. Nerf eclipse, it completely negates magicka classes. Just nerf templars in general, please.

Thank you.

Can't tell if trolling or....?
Point #3 was the only point that came close to actually addressing balance.. and then you proceeded to say that dragon leap being physical is bad for stamina builds?

Yeah... going to need some clarification on whether this is a troll or someone suffers from severe L2P issues...

accina

dday3six wrote: »

Shield stacking it's self isn't the issue it's that they cannot be crit or dot'ed.

This. Another problem with shields is that you can't proc skills against them, grim focus and siphoning attacks for example.

GreenSoup2HoT

1) Harness Magicka should not stack with Hardened Ward. Period. I shouldn't have to explain why at this point.

As a stamina user this does not effect me. I think hardened ward and healing ward should not stack. You can easily gain full benefit from healing ward if you use hardened right after. Healing ward should always be on top so you can prevent sorc's from healing "well".

2) Any and every ability should take the user out of stealth/Cloak. Yes, this includes Vigor, Camo Hunter, Rally, etc.

You could just make other skill's cast-able from stealth. Share the weather that people seem to think stamina user's have with this ability to cast in stealth. Why nerf when you can buff. This is really a magicka nb complaining, which they should. Make healing hard cast-able from stealth i agree.

3) Surprise Attack should at the very minimum lose its built in armor debuff, it is too stupid OP atm.

Nightblade's are the de-buff class. No it should not loose this, however i do think people who stack 100% weapon damage should have reduced damage. For instance flawless dawn-breaker and major brutality scale off each other rather then the base value. If you fixed this, stamina min-max'ers would have less overall damage. I think this is just QQ because currently most if not all stamina nightblade's are running 100% weapon damage build's.




The rest of your opinion's are already regularly discussed on the forum's, i'm not gonna go into all of them. No need to repeat thing's that have already bigger more detailed discussion's about them in other thread's. I like the focus of the thread, however it's hard for Zos to get good information when you don't separate these area's to create specific discussion. All you get is people commenting on what they do or don't want changed first. Rather then really discussing 1 issue in detail.

-Ryan

Mumyo

Yea, the frontline classes lost whatever they had... pretty much everything. In groups, Dk's and temps are still awesome but running solo or in small numbers or being in focus, we *** up. Other classes can avoid the focus pretty good.

BigTone

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

To my understanding ZOS is planning a major class rebalance/overhaul sometime in early 2016. There are a ton of threads floating around discussing this or that aspect of PvP that have plenty of merit, but I would like to consolidate the discussion for the benefit of all (and ZOS ) so let's do that. This is a discussion for the PvP aspects of the game, but feel free to chime in if any of the proposed changes/tweaks would adversely affect PvE to a great extent. This discussion should be in the best interest of PvPers to promote a more balanced battlefield in Cyrodiil but not at the expense of the PvE content most of us participate in as well.

1) Harness Magicka should not stack with Hardened Ward. Period. I shouldn't have to explain why at this point.
Just no. Harness Magicka just defends you against magic damage, and therefore should stack with hardened ward. If you implement this change, then Harness shouldn't stack with ANY other shield, whether its barrier, igneous, blazing shield, etc.

2) Any and every ability should take the user out of stealth/Cloak. Yes, this includes Vigor, Camo Hunter, Rally, etc.
Just buff radiant mage light / revealing flare instead. All self buffs shouldn't take you out of stealth. Stealth would be less viable with this change, and that would be bad for the game.

3) Surprise Attack should at the very minimum lose its built in armor debuff, it is too stupid OP atm.

4) Dragon Blood should actually heal the 33% of missing health it says it does. No brainer.

5) If we must have AoE caps, Barrier and Purge need to be subject to them as well.

6) For the love of Talos, can Toppling Charge please work every time?

7) Ambush should not be locking ppl out of using abilities.

8) Overload needs a rehaul. I know the argument, "blah blah toggles," but in reality the 3rd bar is used as a dedicated utility bar by any competent sorc in PvP. My Templar would like an extra utility bar too but that wouldn't be fair.
All toggles need a rehaul. If you activate a toggle and switch bars, the toggle should still stay on. If you want the toggle off, go back to bar it is slotted on and turn it off. The fact that a toggle takes up two spots on an already limited number of ability slots is terrible.

9) Eclipse should not be limited to one target if it is CC breakable. You can't just go around spamming eclipse on everything, and think of the PvE consequences of this with NPCs who don't break free.

10) Camo Hunter should not proc the stealth bonus more than once. Period. If more calculations are necessary to make this happen then so be it. If this was pre 1.6 I would agree, but with the damage nerf as it is I don't think this is a problem.

11) Molten Weapons could use a slight duration buff. This move is already stupidly OP. Personally I think the duration is fine.

12) Healing Ward, many of you will argue, is OP and needs nerfed, but I view it as a good tool to use against that OP stamina damage that is running rampant in Cyrodiil. I'm sure this will warrant further discussion. The only heal that needs a nerf is breath of life. The heal from healing ward can be mitigated by damaging your opponent, breath of life can be spammed on end. Make the cast time longer please.

13) Please look into making Templar ultimates more worthwhile in PvP. NOVA

If anything sorc and NB ultimates need to be worthwhile in PvP. I think we can all agree that Dragon Leap is the most bad ass PvP ult right now, but I would put Nova right after that followed by negate. Nightblades don't have very good group play Ultimates right now, I think a buff to consuming Darkness is in order.

14) DK whip needs a slight damage buff, it really is pathetic.

15) If you're a vamp/werewolf, you shouldn't need a skill slotted to enjoy the perks thereof, cause DB will still wreck you without it.
Completely disagree with this. You shouldn't be able to get the many benefits of WW or vamp and the only drawback be dawnbreaker.

16) DK Chains should be less random.

17) I dunno about everyone else, but I don't think immovable potions should be a thing. Right now they are bugged and should be fixed. Many times I use this potion and still get knocked back.

I was on vacation for a bit so haven't played much lately, this is what I could think of off the top of my head. I play all classes and have no hidden agenda. I'm doing this so that we can have 4 balanced classes that each are effective in their own way while still being competitive vs the other 3 classes. And for the record, I am strongly against any Cloak/Hardened Ward nerfs. These abilities have powerful synergies with other abilities and that it what needs to be looked at, not the abilities themselves.

I'm sure I missed some things and I'm sure some of these points some ppl will disagree with, but not a bad starting point IMO.

Alucardo

These suggestions are legit

contact.opiumb16_ESO

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

To my understanding ZOS is planning a major class rebalance/overhaul sometime in early 2016. There are a ton of threads floating around discussing this or that aspect of PvP that have plenty of merit, but I would like to consolidate the discussion for the benefit of all (and ZOS ) so let's do that. This is a discussion for the PvP aspects of the game, but feel free to chime in if any of the proposed changes/tweaks would adversely affect PvE to a great extent. This discussion should be in the best interest of PvPers to promote a more balanced battlefield in Cyrodiil but not at the expense of the PvE content most of us participate in as well.

1) Harness Magicka should not stack with Hardened Ward. Period. I shouldn't have to explain why at this point.

2) Any and every ability should take the user out of stealth/Cloak. Yes, this includes Vigor, Camo Hunter, Rally, etc.

3) Surprise Attack should at the very minimum lose its built in armor debuff, it is too stupid OP atm.

4) Dragon Blood should actually heal the 33% of missing health it says it does. No brainer.

5) If we must have AoE caps, Barrier and Purge need to be subject to them as well.

6) For the love of Talos, can Toppling Charge please work every time?

7) Ambush should not be locking ppl out of using abilities.

8) Overload needs a rehaul. I know the argument, "blah blah toggles," but in reality the 3rd bar is used as a dedicated utility bar by any competent sorc in PvP. My Templar would like an extra utility bar too but that wouldn't be fair.

9) Eclipse should not be limited to one target if it is CC breakable.

10) Camo Hunter should not proc the stealth bonus more than once. Period. If more calculations are necessary to make this happen then so be it.

11) Molten Weapons could use a slight duration buff.

12) Healing Ward, many of you will argue, is OP and needs nerfed, but I view it as a good tool to use against that OP stamina damage that is running rampant in Cyrodiil. I'm sure this will warrant further discussion.

13) Please look into making Templar ultimates more worthwhile in PvP.

14) DK whip needs a slight damage buff, it really is pathetic.

15) If you're a vamp/werewolf, you shouldn't need a skill slotted to enjoy the perks thereof, cause DB will still wreck you without it.

16) DK Chains should be less random.

17) I dunno about everyone else, but I don't think immovable potions should be a thing.

I was on vacation for a bit so haven't played much lately, this is what I could think of off the top of my head. I play all classes and have no hidden agenda. I'm doing this so that we can have 4 balanced classes that each are effective in their own way while still being competitive vs the other 3 classes. And for the record, I am strongly against any Cloak/Hardened Ward nerfs. These abilities have powerful synergies with other abilities and that it what needs to be looked at, not the abilities themselves.

I'm sure I missed some things and I'm sure some of these points some ppl will disagree with, but not a bad starting point IMO.

As a templar/NB/sorcerer player i do agree with those. Can't speak for DKs as i don't have one

Kutsuu

You make some good points. For example, Camo hunter should only proc one time when attacking from stealth. That's a good one. I agree that Harness Magicka shouldn't stack with Hardened Ward, or should stack but with a restriction that you can never have a total shield stack bigger than your max health.

The combination of being unable to prebuff in stealth (especially abilities that are MEANT to be used in stealth and have a stealth benefit like camo hunter and other NB class buffs) and the nerf to NB damage that you're asking for essentially guts the "Rogue" play style of the class. By simultaneously asking for buffs to DK damage and Molten Weapons duration, you are asking for your tanky class that *already* has the highest damage from-stealth opener in the game to pull an even bigger lead over the class that is intended to have some benefits to stealth-based combat. I think we've all seen that "bullseye" build in action - and what's funny is that if that was a NB doing the exact same thing everyone would flip a lid.

Your bias is out for all to see when you say Ambush needs nerfing because it causes abilities not to work. That goes for every single gap closer in the game. Literally every single one has been given that stupid lockout. Ambush needs a minimum range so it can't be spammed back to back by the same player, that's really the only difference here.

Those of you saying that every class should have a spammable instant damage ability that does the same damage as Surprise Attack, can you explain that further? Each class has advantages and disadvantages, and NBs have weaker defenses in exchange for stronger offense. If all classes should have the same offensive ability, what buffs do you propose NBs should get to bring their defenses in line?

Skinzz

Just admit it.. u want nigtblades and sorcerers nerfed

zornyan

Few simple changes to make pvp more interesting

Make shields crit able and DOT able, no way should a shield negate an entire playstyle and build.

Vamp needs a rework, as a vampire you are constantly running around in a vulnerable and weakened state, without any skills slotted I have.

25% more fire damage

Crap ton more damage from silver shards, dawnbraker etc

So I don't feel it's fair to require a slotted skill for the 10% regen buffs, as unlike WW you are constantly taking more damage.

In fairness to WW reduce transformation cost down to something like 150 ish ultimate.

Spamming skills needs to have less of a benefit, for maximum effective in pvp some people just do

Crit Rush

wb

WB

WB

WB


There needs to be some kinda system to want to put people off just spamming one skill alone, like the dodge roll debuff, maybe a slight increase in cost each time, say 12%.

For me as a templar for instance, spamming a skill like jabs is death, not only due to the many bugs surrounding it, but due to lack of burst or CC, so I'm punished for spamming jabs.

But an NB going, ambush, suprise attack, ambush, suprise

Or a dk going wrecking blow/heeavy attk/wwrecking blow

Is rewarded, they are putting out mormore damage, and having CC/debuffs added in too, in order for me to attain similar damage I would need to use a rotation of at least 4-5 skills that they get from 1-2 .

Which I think is more balanced, some skills shine far over others due to having so many good effrcts, like suprise attack, a spammable very hard hitting skill that debuffs your enemy and can CC them, or Wrecking blow, a very hard hitting skill that has a long CC and buffs other skills via empower.

And like steel tornado, 10 people running around spamming that = insta

If there was some kind of small penalty for spamming a single skill repeatedly it would cause a lot less problems, WB spammers would have to use other skills, spin to win zergs would have to use other skills and vary it up a bit, even people spamming shield stacks would have to use a bit of thought, it would simply the remove "press x and y 4 times to win: mindset atm

blur

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

I know I said I was done with this...

I called plenty of experienced players to come weigh in here so I ain't scurred. I did my homework, I PvP enough to know what I'm talking about. You are trying to tell me what I am really trying to say.

I stated in the intro that this is merely a consolidation thread that (I hope) will see plenty of different players who understand class balance come in here and give their opinion. Everything here has been discussed before, I wanted it to be in one nice package for ZOS when they consider which abilities to buff/nerf. Of course we won't all see eye to eye, but the main thing is that experienced PvPers will be giving their input on something that matters to all of us, class balance.

By the way you can look at my post history, you'll find some experienced players agreeing with me from time to time, please stop telling me what I'm really trying to say and just look at what I'm actually saying? I don't want Lava Whip to hit for 10k but it is laughable as is, which is why I used the word "slight." The only thing you could call me a crusader about would be sorcs stacking Hardened and Harness, my bias against that is clear as night and day.

I am not telling you what you are trying to say. I am telling you what you are saying.
Your one nice package has been done to death already and you can find them spread all over the forum. These "packages" inevitably lead to "Nerf NB/Sorc" threads, always.

8k whips are laughable? You don't want 10, but 8 is laughable? What are you looking for? A happy 9k medium?

You also called in/listed popular forum users and streamers most of which have a strong anti nightblade bias and a strong DK/Temp lobby. Where are the solo NBs? Where is Sunshine? Where is Xael? Where is Samuel Bantien? Decimus? Where is Kervis? (I am only naming a few to make a point as these are some of the best solo NB in the game at the moment). Strange the only NBs from your list are either non dedicated NBs who play another class or those that agree with your talking points.

I find it extremely strange you can easily make a 2 shot build with a DK and this gets a free pass while then asking for huge nerfs to core abilities of alleged OP stamblades. Yet while asking for a major nerf to NBs you ask for a Stamina morph of whip and an even longer uptime of MA! In it's current incarnation I can kill a target in 3-4 seconds with 2 attacks. A stam whip would make DKs even more OP than they have ever been.
I will however address your original post.

blur

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

To my understanding ZOS is planning a major class rebalance/overhaul sometime in early 2016. There are a ton of threads floating around discussing this or that aspect of PvP that have plenty of merit, but I would like to consolidate the discussion for the benefit of all (and ZOS ) so let's do that. This is a discussion for the PvP aspects of the game, but feel free to chime in if any of the proposed changes/tweaks would adversely affect PvE to a great extent. This discussion should be in the best interest of PvPers to promote a more balanced battlefield in Cyrodiil but not at the expense of the PvE content most of us participate in as well.

1) Harness Magicka should not stack with Hardened Ward. Period. I shouldn't have to explain why at this point.

2) Any and every ability should take the user out of stealth/Cloak. Yes, this includes Vigor, Camo Hunter, Rally, etc.

3) Surprise Attack should at the very minimum lose its built in armor debuff, it is too stupid OP atm.

4) Dragon Blood should actually heal the 33% of missing health it says it does. No brainer.

5) If we must have AoE caps, Barrier and Purge need to be subject to them as well.

6) For the love of Talos, can Toppling Charge please work every time?

7) Ambush should not be locking ppl out of using abilities.

8) Overload needs a rehaul. I know the argument, "blah blah toggles," but in reality the 3rd bar is used as a dedicated utility bar by any competent sorc in PvP. My Templar would like an extra utility bar too but that wouldn't be fair.

9) Eclipse should not be limited to one target if it is CC breakable.

10) Camo Hunter should not proc the stealth bonus more than once. Period. If more calculations are necessary to make this happen then so be it.

11) Molten Weapons could use a slight duration buff.

12) Healing Ward, many of you will argue, is OP and needs nerfed, but I view it as a good tool to use against that OP stamina damage that is running rampant in Cyrodiil. I'm sure this will warrant further discussion.

13) Please look into making Templar ultimates more worthwhile in PvP.

14) DK whip needs a slight damage buff, it really is pathetic.

15) If you're a vamp/werewolf, you shouldn't need a skill slotted to enjoy the perks thereof, cause DB will still wreck you without it.

16) DK Chains should be less random.

17) I dunno about everyone else, but I don't think immovable potions should be a thing.

I was on vacation for a bit so haven't played much lately, this is what I could think of off the top of my head. I play all classes and have no hidden agenda. I'm doing this so that we can have 4 balanced classes that each are effective in their own way while still being competitive vs the other 3 classes. And for the record, I am strongly against any Cloak/Hardened Ward nerfs. These abilities have powerful synergies with other abilities and that it what needs to be looked at, not the abilities themselves.

I'm sure I missed some things and I'm sure some of these points some ppl will disagree with, but not a bad starting point IMO.

1. I am fine with Harness Magicka stacking with HW. It doesn't stop me from killing Magicka Sorcs. However removing the stacking would only make them weaker. Let's also not forget there is a set in game that absolutely *** over Sorc shields.

2. No. This is silly and defeats the purpose of several buffs. If you are really having an issue with this you either don't use Radiant Magelight or detect potions or you don't know how to fight NBs. Usually it's the culmination of all 3 predicated on this hatred/fear of someone you are fighting potentially getting away. I have seen this since day one against both Sorcs and NBs as if PvP is meant to be like Rock'em Sock'em Robots where you stand in front of each other and trade back and forth. No thanks.

3. Surprise Attack should not lose it's armor debuff. It's balanced an in a fine spot. That's like me asking for Dk abilities such as whip to lose their secondary effect.

4. Are you implying Dragon Blood is healing too little or too much? Currently in Cyrodiil DKs are almost always requiring 1vX to be disposed of in a timely fashion. That said, something is working for them. I know damn good and well DKs can selfheal through a ton of stuff even while doing decent damage. So yeah, I am not sure what you are saying here. I do agree that an ability should do what it says though.

5. AoE caps are garbage. They should be removed and it will help against zergs. In fact ZOS if you are reading this post, they should be removed by the time Thieves Guild is released. This is a very dumb mechanic that allows zergs to stack and otherwise power through an area that should be a quagmire of death.

6. Toppling Charge needs to be fixed 2 years ago. ZOS come on... it's been an issue since 2013 and you just announced you MIGHT have it fixed by first quarter 2016? This should have been fixed before launch, or at least first quarter 2014. We are going on 3 years, you should be ashamed.

7. I am fine with Ambush providing a mini stun. I am not fine with people endlessly fleeing from fights when they are not part of a zerg. There are ways to counter Ambush. People are either too lazy or need to put on their thinking caps. Yes this includes the "from stealth" Ambush.

8. Overload does need a "fix" however I don't think we are talking about the same thing. I am fine with a third bar, I am also fine without one. To be quite honest, not enough Sorcs run overload to make this a serious problem, moreover several abilities are used on the third bar that are on the other bars, particularly the toggles. More on Overload later.

9. Having an instant cast reflect hitting mass targets would break pvp. Sorry but no. I can only imagine some Templar with BALLS OF STEEL running up to a stack and popping Eclipse. No thanks! I would exploit the hell out of it. I can't imagine the ocean of tears, it would be hilarious.

10. Camo Hunter is cheesy no doubt. However it does have a low anytime proc on anyone. I think this in a way can justify other attacks proccing from sneak. I personally wouldn't lose sleep over a change to this sneak mechanic.

11. Disagree. Molten is strong as hell and the very backbone of the 2 shot build. This is a very extremely powerful ability and it's fine right where it is.

12. I am fine with Healing Ward as it is.

13. Maybe the Radial Sweep ult? I don't use the Temp ults because I have a build that requires something else. The same could be said about Sorc ults, while they are useful, I find myself slotting other stuff aside from Atro on my 2h bar (forced to take it if I want my regen passive).

14. DK whip damage is quite good. I don't know wtf all the complaining is about. At vr14 with unoptimized gear I was hitting players with decent spell resist and 300+ cp for 8k. I can't imagine an optimized v16 build that has good magicka/spell damage with the right buffs like Empower/Major Proph/Sorc.

Also adding a stamina morph to this ability would be crazy overpowered. I think it would be cool to have a whip (what's not cool about seeing people with whips made of fire?) but as it is, DK damage is far too good for how much defense and staying power they get to keep.

15. Yes and No. WW needed the nerf. In fact let's be honest, WW needs to be changed to taking poison/disease damage while in human form. Are you no longer a WW because you are not shifted? Do you not have the blood/disease of lycanthropy because you didn't shift? That's really shortsighted and dumb. Vamps always take extra damage from fire and Fighter's Guild abilities. WW needing to shift in order to count toward this is just poor design and inconsistent. Let alone the fact that for months people were taking WW keeping it at level 1 and getting good Stamina Regen without any drawbacks whatsoever. No skill points used, no slots wasted, no vulnerabilities. If they fix what I suggested, then yes, I am fine with not having to slot anything to get the regen passives. But make the playing field even. There is no reason a Vamp should run around with perma disadvantages and a WW not. A lycan doesn't stop being a lycan when he doesn't shift.

16. What do you mean? I can't think of a time when mine didn't work when I needed them.

17. Immovable potions are wonderful, especially for those that whine about Nightblades and other builds that revolve around CC/Burst. Also removing these will just make zerg blobs and groups that much more ridiculous.


Edit: I forgot to add this...

Currently several abilities are not optimized properly. Take Overload for example. Overload as a Stamina Sorc will switch over to scale from your WD/Stam however it still does elemental damage which in turn scales off of your CP's that affect this. Magic Penetration such as Erosion and Elemental Expert are the only ways to really increase the damage. Other abilities are things from Nightblades such as Killer's Blade (an execute) which uses Stam, scales from Stam, but does Magic Damage and in turn scales of Thaumaturge and Erosion. The same can be said of Death Stroke and other skills that eventually scale off Stamina but do Magic damage. I understand that some of these skills (ults like Death Stroke) regardless of morph will be used by the Magicka build. However certain skills when changed to scale from Stamina need to go all the way, not partly. Stamina Sorcs are really screwed here by this.

Since we are "looking for balance" this should be one of the first things on the table.

Strider_Roshin

1) Harness Magicka should not stack with Hardened Ward. Period. I shouldn't have to explain why at this point.

Hardened ward shouldn't be 3x stronger, and last more than 3x longer than almost every other shield in the game while costing 20% less. That's the kind of balance I expect in Destiny.

2) Any and every ability should take the user out of stealth/Cloak. Yes, this includes Vigor, Camo Hunter, Rally, etc.

No, but I think more abilities should not break stealth, such as green Dragon blood

3) Surprise Attack should at the very minimum lose its built in armor debuff, it is too stupid OP atm.

It does 68% the damage of uppercut, and costs around the same. No it's not OP.

7) Ambush should not be locking ppl out of using abilities.

Agreed. This ability should only immobilize

6) For the love of Talos, can Toppling Charge please work every time?

Agreed. Also you should be able to weapon swap immediately afterwards as well.

8) Overload needs a rehaul. I know the argument, "blah blah toggles," but in reality the 3rd bar is used as a dedicated utility bar by any competent sorc in PvP. My Templar would like an extra utility bar too but that wouldn't be fair.

Overload is stupid OP for how inexpensive it is. The costs needs to be doubled if people are doing 25k light attacks with it (12.5k in Cyrodiil)

12) Healing Ward, many of you will argue, is OP and needs nerfed, but I view it as a good tool to use against that OP stamina damage that is running rampant in Cyrodiil. I'm sure this will warrant further discussion.

And yet it's magic users that do the most damage consistently. Stamina definitely has great damage but don't let your bias convince you that they're superior to magicka builds. Last I checked magicka sorcs are still top dogs at everything in the game.

14) DK whip needs a slight damage buff, it really is pathetic

You just got done calling surprise attack OP, and then you say the whip is too weak, and yet molten whip does comparable damage, and flame lash does more damage than surprise attack against immobilized opponents.

17) I dunno about everyone else, but I don't think immovable potions should be a thing

Yes they should. You have access to these as well.

xXNesTXx

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

To my understanding ZOS is planning a major class rebalance/overhaul sometime in early 2016. There are a ton of threads floating around discussing this or that aspect of PvP that have plenty of merit, but I would like to consolidate the discussion for the benefit of all (and ZOS ) so let's do that. This is a discussion for the PvP aspects of the game, but feel free to chime in if any of the proposed changes/tweaks would adversely affect PvE to a great extent. This discussion should be in the best interest of PvPers to promote a more balanced battlefield in Cyrodiil but not at the expense of the PvE content most of us participate in as well.

1) Harness Magicka should not stack with Hardened Ward. Period. I shouldn't have to explain why at this point.

2) Any and every ability should take the user out of stealth/Cloak. Yes, this includes Vigor, Camo Hunter, Rally, etc.

3) Surprise Attack should at the very minimum lose its built in armor debuff, it is too stupid OP atm.

4) Dragon Blood should actually heal the 33% of missing health it says it does. No brainer.

5) If we must have AoE caps, Barrier and Purge need to be subject to them as well.

6) For the love of Talos, can Toppling Charge please work every time?

7) Ambush should not be locking ppl out of using abilities.

8) Overload needs a rehaul. I know the argument, "blah blah toggles," but in reality the 3rd bar is used as a dedicated utility bar by any competent sorc in PvP. My Templar would like an extra utility bar too but that wouldn't be fair.

9) Eclipse should not be limited to one target if it is CC breakable.

10) Camo Hunter should not proc the stealth bonus more than once. Period. If more calculations are necessary to make this happen then so be it.

11) Molten Weapons could use a slight duration buff.

12) Healing Ward, many of you will argue, is OP and needs nerfed, but I view it as a good tool to use against that OP stamina damage that is running rampant in Cyrodiil. I'm sure this will warrant further discussion.

13) Please look into making Templar ultimates more worthwhile in PvP.

14) DK whip needs a slight damage buff, it really is pathetic.

15) If you're a vamp/werewolf, you shouldn't need a skill slotted to enjoy the perks thereof, cause DB will still wreck you without it.

16) DK Chains should be less random.

17) I dunno about everyone else, but I don't think immovable potions should be a thing.

I was on vacation for a bit so haven't played much lately, this is what I could think of off the top of my head. I play all classes and have no hidden agenda. I'm doing this so that we can have 4 balanced classes that each are effective in their own way while still being competitive vs the other 3 classes. And for the record, I am strongly against any Cloak/Hardened Ward nerfs. These abilities have powerful synergies with other abilities and that it what needs to be looked at, not the abilities themselves.

I'm sure I missed some things and I'm sure some of these points some ppl will disagree with, but not a bad starting point IMO.

Another undercover nerf NB & Sorcs thread....so nice....

Mmmm your main character is....DK? i bet, yes.....

Jitterbug

I like beans and such

Kutsuu

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

1) Harness Magicka should not stack with Hardened Ward. Period. I shouldn't have to explain why at this point.

Hardened ward shouldn't be 3x stronger, and last more than 3x longer than almost every other shield in the game while costing 20% less. That's the kind of balance I expect in Destiny.

2) Any and every ability should take the user out of stealth/Cloak. Yes, this includes Vigor, Camo Hunter, Rally, etc.

No, but I think more abilities should not break stealth, such as green Dragon blood

3) Surprise Attack should at the very minimum lose its built in armor debuff, it is too stupid OP atm.

It does 68% the damage of uppercut, and costs around the same. No it's not OP.

7) Ambush should not be locking ppl out of using abilities.

Agreed. This ability should only immobilize

6) For the love of Talos, can Toppling Charge please work every time?

Agreed. Also you should be able to weapon swap immediately afterwards as well.

8) Overload needs a rehaul. I know the argument, "blah blah toggles," but in reality the 3rd bar is used as a dedicated utility bar by any competent sorc in PvP. My Templar would like an extra utility bar too but that wouldn't be fair.

Overload is stupid OP for how inexpensive it is. The costs needs to be doubled if people are doing 25k light attacks with it (12.5k in Cyrodiil)

12) Healing Ward, many of you will argue, is OP and needs nerfed, but I view it as a good tool to use against that OP stamina damage that is running rampant in Cyrodiil. I'm sure this will warrant further discussion.

And yet it's magic users that do the most damage consistently. Stamina definitely has great damage but don't let your bias convince you that they're superior to magicka builds. Last I checked magicka sorcs are still top dogs at everything in the game.

14) DK whip needs a slight damage buff, it really is pathetic

You just got done calling surprise attack OP, and then you say the whip is too weak, and yet molten whip does comparable damage, and flame lash does more damage than surprise attack against immobilized opponents.

17) I dunno about everyone else, but I don't think immovable potions should be a thing

Yes they should. You have access to these as well.

This is a post I can 100% agree with.

contact.opiumb16_ESO

xXNesTXx wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

To my understanding ZOS is planning a major class rebalance/overhaul sometime in early 2016. There are a ton of threads floating around discussing this or that aspect of PvP that have plenty of merit, but I would like to consolidate the discussion for the benefit of all (and ZOS ) so let's do that. This is a discussion for the PvP aspects of the game, but feel free to chime in if any of the proposed changes/tweaks would adversely affect PvE to a great extent. This discussion should be in the best interest of PvPers to promote a more balanced battlefield in Cyrodiil but not at the expense of the PvE content most of us participate in as well.

1) Harness Magicka should not stack with Hardened Ward. Period. I shouldn't have to explain why at this point.

2) Any and every ability should take the user out of stealth/Cloak. Yes, this includes Vigor, Camo Hunter, Rally, etc.

3) Surprise Attack should at the very minimum lose its built in armor debuff, it is too stupid OP atm.

4) Dragon Blood should actually heal the 33% of missing health it says it does. No brainer.

5) If we must have AoE caps, Barrier and Purge need to be subject to them as well.

6) For the love of Talos, can Toppling Charge please work every time?

7) Ambush should not be locking ppl out of using abilities.

8) Overload needs a rehaul. I know the argument, "blah blah toggles," but in reality the 3rd bar is used as a dedicated utility bar by any competent sorc in PvP. My Templar would like an extra utility bar too but that wouldn't be fair.

9) Eclipse should not be limited to one target if it is CC breakable.

10) Camo Hunter should not proc the stealth bonus more than once. Period. If more calculations are necessary to make this happen then so be it.

11) Molten Weapons could use a slight duration buff.

12) Healing Ward, many of you will argue, is OP and needs nerfed, but I view it as a good tool to use against that OP stamina damage that is running rampant in Cyrodiil. I'm sure this will warrant further discussion.

13) Please look into making Templar ultimates more worthwhile in PvP.

14) DK whip needs a slight damage buff, it really is pathetic.

15) If you're a vamp/werewolf, you shouldn't need a skill slotted to enjoy the perks thereof, cause DB will still wreck you without it.

16) DK Chains should be less random.

17) I dunno about everyone else, but I don't think immovable potions should be a thing.

I was on vacation for a bit so haven't played much lately, this is what I could think of off the top of my head. I play all classes and have no hidden agenda. I'm doing this so that we can have 4 balanced classes that each are effective in their own way while still being competitive vs the other 3 classes. And for the record, I am strongly against any Cloak/Hardened Ward nerfs. These abilities have powerful synergies with other abilities and that it what needs to be looked at, not the abilities themselves.

I'm sure I missed some things and I'm sure some of these points some ppl will disagree with, but not a bad starting point IMO.

Another undercover nerf NB & Sorcs thread....so nice....

Mmmm your main character is....DK? i bet, yes.....

When i see this "You want a cloak nerf ?? yes?!?! Congratulations, you are a NOOB, maybe is better spend your time learning to play instead being here crying" i lol so hard !

You know some people play all classes and do agree about this thread.

RinaldoGandolphi

Nerfs to damage shields, well any nerfs for that matter to any class im not on board with, not in the current state of the game with CP and such.

Damage Shields have been nerfed substantially twice in the past year and yet people are still crying about it....

Bolt Escape has been nerfed a record 7 times and folks are still crying about Sorcs....

Sorry I just can't get on board with anymore nerfs.....the changes ZOS has made already concerning nerfs have driven many people away...i rarely log anymore because of it.

The nerfs to damage shields, Bolt Escape, Dodge roll, Healing, etc have done NOTHING but promote zerg warfare...most of these changes listed in the OP will do nothing but empower zergs.

Everyone wants penalties for using any defensive skill that makes it harder to kill you.

Where are the penalties for spamming Wrecking Blow?

Where are the penalties for spamming Ambush? or any other gap close

Where the the penalties for spamming any "offensive attack" for that matter?

There are none, yet folks continually get on here and rail and demand they nerf every single defensive mechanic in the game....

This in turn has ruined the game, ESO right now is in the worst shape it has ever been in from a combat perspective, and its not because of AOE caps, its because of constant changes and nerfs to defensive skills and abilities with no inverse nerfs to spamming offensive abilities which does nothing but promote zerg warfare.

@Ezareth summed it up a few months ago, an "uninteresting combat system" is what they created with the IPC patch moving forward....

You do nothing but create a zergfest when you nerf and put restrictive penalties on defensive skills while putting no such penalties on offensive skills.

Look at Bolt Escape, if you use it twice within 4 seconds, it costs 50% more cost increase stack and keeps increasing with each cast.

Look at Critical Charge you can spam it over and over and over, it has a longer range then Bolt Escape, Costs less, Has a hidden silence and stun built in, does damage, has no cost increase penalty, and can be spammed over and over and over without penalty and we wonder why this game is a full on zergfest.

Its no secret this game went from fighting all over the map with people traveling alone or in groups of 2-3 with fights all over the place to everyone running in giant 40+ man zergs, because they have tipped the scales so far in favor of full blown offense that using any defensive measures is penalized so heavily that it makes far more sense to run with a large group of other players to offset the penalties associated with using any defensive skills....

Please understand, im not trying to be harsh, but every update they have nerfed defensive and survival skills and every update the zerg gets worse and worse to the point the game is almost unplalyable, i will be watching the next update very carefully and if its once again nothing but nerfs to defensive and survival skills with no such nerfs to offensive skills i will be finished with the game for good.

Yes they do need to make DK healing work, on top of that they need to remove these stupid penalties from Bolt Escape, Dodge rolling, and add 25% of the value back to damage sheilds...VR16 Weapons are actually the equivalent of VR20 weapons in terms of how much damage they give you ad gold value, and the nerf to shields currently is far more then what many realize. Its part of what have made DK and Templar's have such a hard time because their damage sheilds are useless under the current system, and Sorc's Ward is just barely viable as Ward is good for absorbing one Wrecking Blow before it needs recast.

if we continue down this path of nerfs to defensive skills and survival skills with no nerfs to offensive skills this game will become 100% zergfest dominated with no other playstyle viable, and thats a game I want no part in playing....and if their podcasts are any indication, then many of those streamers you listed don't want no part of playing such a game either...

FENGRUSH

Wrobel needs to show up first. Until then discussion is just for the good feels.