Too many fights are just STUPID hard

BSGDevastator

MasterSpatula wrote: »

BSGDevastator wrote: »

[snip]
We tried to defeat the boss 16 times and never managed to do so.
However, that bossfight was still too easy imo.
[snip]
If the chance to kill a boss is at 0.01% then that's perfectly fine. He's not impossible to kill, thus you can win.

Great for you, but what you're describing is the 100%, utter, complete and total opposite of enjoyable to me. It is the Antifun. Playing your ideal game would make me feel angry and disrespected.

You think a one percent of one percent chance of success is "perfectly fine." Great. Games aimed at someone who thinks like you should be marketed specifically to people like you (like Dark Souls is), not to a general audience.

Meanwhile, those of us who think your opinion is FREAKIN' BONKERS still pay a sub, still want an actual challenge--one that takes skill, planning, and a little luck to get past, not one that takes skill, planning, and a god-awful-improbably-enormous-crap-ton of luck.

Luck is an non-existing factor in a bossbattle. Either you play good and win, or you play bad and lose. Everyone makes mistakes. The trick is to learn from those mistakes and grow better after each mistake. Sure, you might not like games who are too challenging, but if you want something easier, then why don't you ask them to implement a "Weakling Mode" just for yourself?

Halrloprillalar

Sariias wrote: »

Halrloprillalar wrote: »

Slantasiam wrote: »

I have a v10 sorc and a v5 Dk never asked or needed help on any boss any easyer it would be a faceroll.

Right, I'm sure you soloed every VR WB in every zone and every dolmen too, right? Thanks for your helpful input.

Why do people on these forums act like the only helpful input are comments that you agree with or that agree with you?

Who's to say this player isn't speaking the truth?

Because they aren't. And their comment still wasn't helpful, even if they were.

"helpful" means you contribute some sort of information that can be of use to others.

orablast

I consider myself an average player and I feel this game is a perfect blend of difficulty. Some fights are quite easy while others really make you think about strategy and skill setup. I play a NB VR3 Ranger and I can easily die to solo bosses and groups of 3s if I do not plan properly. I love how this game puts us situations to think outside the box and approach battles differently.

However, with all that being said, it would be nice to have the option to group for solo missions. I think with this small change it would even the playing field for others who feel the game is too hard.

Sariias

Halrloprillalar wrote: »

Because they aren't. And their comment still wasn't helpful, even if they were.

"helpful" means you contribute some sort of information that can be of use to others.

He said it wasn't hard for him, even if he's embellishing. It suggests that the game isn't "stupid" hard for everyone.

It's certainly not stupid hard for me, not one battle has been "stupid hard." I'm not embellishing.

starkerealm

dkrleza wrote: »

MasterSpatula wrote: »

Zeeed wrote: »

harvesters *** me over dozens of times like 5-6 attempt most of the time. And thats the way i like it

I literally don't understand how anyone, even one single person in the world, actually says, "I died 6 times before I succeeded. That's the way I like it."

You just don't get that, for some people, fighting the same enemy six times before finally getting past it (and usually, you're not doing anything different. you just got lucky the sixth time) is BORING. Tedious, repetitive, dull, dull, dull. It's like reading a novel, only being forced to read the same page six times just because the novelist just decided your time wasn't valuable and you really shouldn't be enjoying the experience anyway.

Some things in this game present a truly difficult, interesting challenge. Pre-nerf Doshia, for example, was hard but not so hard you couldn't learn the trick in time to take her out. But "immune to CC, ludicrous DPS, absurd health" isn't an interesting challenge; it's not an engaging difficulty to overcome; it's just uncreatively, unoriginally, dumbly hard.

No one's asking for easy. No one's asking for "faceroll." But it would be nice to see boringly-hard replaced with interesting and rewarding challenges--and to see our valuable time treated with respect.

Your post reeks on begging for nerfs.

It is perfectly fine to fight the same opponent 5 or 6 times. If opponent takes less than that, then its complexity is very low. Very low complexity in fights usually leads to brainless button mashing 1,2,1,2,1,2. These are the fights that I don't want to fight. Tank and spank fights are just boooring and dull, dull, dull. These are the fights you want to do in everyday world npc fights, but not in dungeons.

Let me give you an example. There is a quest where you need to fight Worm Cult lady boss and her daedric minion. So, she heals for A LOT, herself and hers minion aswell. This minion is doing tons of damage and if you're a bit squishy character, you will have real problems with this fight. So, the first idea that crossed my mind is to kill her first. Kill the healer. However, this is very hard, since you need to concentrate on survival, interrupt her timely, do quite high damage output at the same time, watch not to get out of the stamina, etc... So, I died couple of times horribly. Then I realized that the minion can be killed first, without engaging her into fight. Even after that, she was a tough cookie to kill. You can see her rotation and spells she is doing, and to you can anticipate when the heal is going to land. I died 8 times on this encounter. However, for me, this was one of the most interesting fights in the game. Because it forced me to rethink and polish my strategy.

And this is the reason why you post is just a blatant begging for nerfs.

I find it hilarious that you insist the answer is learn to play, when you clearly don't have the adaptability to do it yourself. I have never died to Droshia. I figured out the orbs well before she could kill me. (Or, I remembered seeing the chatter in zone for a couple days before.) The fight was tedious, but not lethal. (EDIT: This was pre-nerf, in case there's any confusion on that subject.)

If that Worm Cult mission is the one I think it is, the healing mechanic is something you should already be familiar with, and waxing her minion is a no brainer. If you've played an MMO before, in your life, you should know, "the healer needs to die first" like it's a personal mantra. This isn't something new, or special, it's just how these games work. Drawing aggro on specific enemies, pulling them, and snuffing them before a fight starts isn't anything special either. Again, that's how MMOs work normally. It's thematically stupid, but it's the norm. I'd actually prefer fights where you can't pull, because it's such a cheap tactic.

The issue is, some players end up with builds that don't work on certain bosses. There's no warning, no clue that it's your build. You just hit a brick wall and the game doesn't offer any explanation. ...then they come on the forums and here you are saying, "y'all just suck."

Elirienne

I actually like the difficulty. And I too am a bit of a noobwho dies a lot. But there it is - a blade is a blade, and it CAN kill you, even if the enemy wielding it is 10 levels under you. I like that. A lot. In WoW, you can stand around with your lvl90 geared character for eternity whilst having lvl 80 enemies hammering you, without doing anything, and your health regens faster than they damage you. This is wrong - no matter how advanced you are, a blade is a blade, a spell is a spell, and you can be beaten. Eso are doing it beautifully.

Phazzle

Zenimax is following an age old model for balancing the difficulty of the game. I would bet anything that this is how it will go down. First, you set the difficulty high so that you satisfy the pro gamers. Then you ratchet the difficulty down to satisfy the casual gamers. That way the pros can say they were there first and the casuals can, eventually, enjoy the game.

As a veteran MMOer, who plays a leather-wearing melee dps DK, I can say that I have not yet had to fight a solo boss fight more than five times. I relish the challenge, but I can appreciate that not everyone is as hardcore as I am. Don't worry Bethesda and Zenimax can't afford to lose the majority of their players so nerfs are incoming.

Blackwidow

Sariias wrote: »

He said it wasn't hard for him, even if he's embellishing. It suggests that the game isn't "stupid" hard for everyone.

Which is an argument against whom?

Nobody said it was hard for everyone. They were saying it was hard for them.

That is why they asked for the difficulty bar. Because it is hard for some and easy for others.

CrimsonThomas

It would also help if melee enemies actually had to touch you to do any damage to you. Right now, as long as they swing at you, be it ten feet away or right up against their bellies, you're getting hit.

Don't even get me started on how arrows and spells are able to fly around corners.

Blackwidow

CrimsonThomas wrote: »

Don't even get me started on arrows and spells flying around corners.

or through walls....

CrimsonThomas

Blackwidow wrote: »

CrimsonThomas wrote: »

Don't even get me started on arrows and spells flying around corners.

or through walls....

Or through walls. Also, they always hit you. I have died countless times because of noclipping, heat-seeking arrows and fire spells.

Dubah

I'm not trying to be a jerk or a troll or anything else, im just saying 90% of this game is strategy, i dont care how high level and how good your gear is the game is based off strategy. I myself utilize the heck out of knowing that when someone power attacks i need to block, or when a harvester for example summons the floating balls that heal her to start getting ready to drop an AE. I however will say that I play a templar and main role is healing, i utilize one whole bar for healing and 3 slots on my second bar for DPS and have had absolutely no issues with this games difficulty, i actually love it and have no issues with it. Even in light armor, now dont get the fact that i heal wrong, its awesome when someone tanks a mob but solo theres no time for magicka regen especially in light armor. You guys might not like it but try a different strategy thats all there is to it.

Now the VR++ stuff is horrible for me, but i get by i just gotta pick and chose certain fights, and ensure i have an ultimate ready for fights that start to go sour, simplicity is really the key

robertlive2014

isengrimb16_ESO wrote: »

... Pelial, I think his name is - it takes place on a ship, and you had to fight a sea serpent while fighting boarders - I'm not sure what he hits me with, but it hits like a truck ...

This was one of the best quests in the game. I enjoyed it a lot and completing it was satisfying. I encountered it in the VR6-VR10 range (iirc), so my assumption is the encounter I played was as hard as it gets. I believe my strategy was face tank with bash interrupts, and quick swaps to my AOE bar for killing those adds. Face tank with bash interrupts is my build's preferred strategy when dealing with bosses that have OP ranged spell attacks.

Shillen

I don't get where people get the idea that fights in this game are RNG based. If you suddenly lost a lot of health it's because you failed to dodge or block something. It wasn't RNG.

Minnus

Shillen wrote: »

I don't get where people get the idea that fights in this game are RNG based. If you suddenly lost a lot of health it's because you failed to dodge or block something. It wasn't RNG.

Not disagreeing, but to be fair... Crits are RNG.

wOOOOt_of_SD

Many fights are a Little challenging, and to many players who don't understand the combat and skills, it will be too hard. I love that the game has a Little Darwinism!

aleister

What it boils down to is what kind of game ZOS wants this to be. Is it a game open to everyone who enjoyed the ES series or is it an elites-only-casuals-need-not-apply type of game? Just be clear about it.

Cogo

I am not sure what most of you are trying to get at. Nerfing things you cant solo in 5 seconds, or making some harder? Or not "forcing" to group?

ESO is wildy marketed as a new brand of MMORPG. They are using new technology and features not exactly found anywhere else. Sure, loads of features are improvement/changes of other MMOs system, like DaoC Pvp, Everquest style of leveling (You dont get highest level in 1 week, unless you using software to assist you), a type of EVE player driven economy, though I still claim the best ever and still is economy is EVE.

The list is long.

But my point is that ESO is delivering what they marketed. Sure, Bugs, fixes and constant battles with goldfarmers/bots is a pain. But these problems are found in EVERY MMO. Even the giant WoW battles with goldfarmers.

The CORE of ESO is an open world and as few restrictions to you as a player as possible. Your gameplay does not start at highest level, it starts at level 1.
EVERYTHING you do in the game is your choice and you get the effects of them, good or bad.

The only thing the game "forces" you to do is following the main story line, but common, its a very good story and goes very well with the lore.
Yes, some fights you have to do are hard, but not unbeatable. Every person simply have to figure out, ask friends, test new things, in order to beat them.
I am a group person myself, but these single instances (and there are more then just the main story line) is testing my ability. I get to see what I can do and how I deal with this specific event.

Sure, I understand that a lot of people are used to guides, addons, friends helping etc. And it might be frustrating when you don't overcome an event right away.

This is also the CORE of ESO. There is not a single thing in this game that is 100% the right way.

YOU decide what works for you. If you have problems with something and want to overcome it, well, then figure out and try again.

ESO promised to deliver an open game, where you would be able to choose your destiny (Quests, soon the thieves guild with a penalty system) and whatever class you choose, you build your character the way you want.

What ESO NEVER promised and I keep seeing people stating this, is that everyone would be able to do everything. You get your words mixed up.

Not since Everquest, almost 15 years ago, I have not had this much enjoyment from a MMO, and I played them all!

ESO is full of features, but my absolute favorite is that they developing and evolving in the opposite direction of WoW. You can do everything, but you have to work for it and you have to accept to fail.

MasterSpatula

BSGDevastator wrote: »

Luck is an non-existing factor in a bossbattle. Either you play good and win, or you play bad and lose.

Right, because AI choices, enemy damage rolls, your damage rolls, critical hits, and critical heals make no difference in how a battle plays out? Nonsense. But you know this, just like you know:

Sure, you might not like games who are too challenging,

isn't what anyone in this thread said at all. Quite the opposite, in fact. People really enjoy the encounters that make you think, make you adapt. Challenging is a lot more than just hard.

but if you want something easier, then why don't you ask them to implement a "Weakling Mode" just for yourself?

Really, if you have to resort to boldfaced lies about other people in order to belittle them to keep your air of superiority, you might want to rethink things a bit.

Akhratos

MasterSpatula wrote: »

BSGDevastator wrote: »

Luck is an non-existing factor in a bossbattle. Either you play good and win, or you play bad and lose.

Right, because AI choices, enemy damage rolls, your damage rolls, critical hits, and critical heals make no difference in how a battle plays out? Nonsense. But you know this, just like you know:

Sure, you might not like games who are too challenging,

isn't what anyone in this thread said at all. Quite the opposite, in fact. People really enjoy the encounters that make you think, make you adapt. Challenging is a lot more than just hard.

but if you want something easier, then why don't you ask them to implement a "Weakling Mode" just for yourself?

Really, if you have to resort to boldfaced lies about other people in order to belittle them to keep your air of superiority, you might want to rethink things a bit.

Readed his post. Laughed at first paragraph (kid, it does since d&d rule based mmos, so stop the pro-talking already), then saw his name, Devastator, and skipped the rest.

Alphashado

This issue isn't going to go away. It is just going to grow in intensity as more and more casual players advance and hit roadblocks. The solution is simple. Allow people to invite one friend to help them with solo fights. It would make couples happy. It would make casual players happy because they could just ask a friend or guildy to help them, and it would make most hardcore players happy because nothing would get nerfed and they could still solo everything to their heart's content.

Just give people an option to duo quests. Problem solved for everyone.

starkerealm

Alphashado wrote: »

This issue isn't going to go away. It is just going to grow in intensity as more and more casual players advance and hit roadblocks. The solution is simple. Allow people to invite one friend to help them with solo fights. It would make couples happy. It would make casual players happy because they could just ask a friend or guildy to help them, and it would make most hardcore players happy because nothing would get nerfed and they could still solo everything to their heart's content.

Just give people an option to duo quests. Problem solved for everyone.

But, then, how would the true "l33t" players demonstrate their dominance over the rest of us.

starkerealm

BSGDevastator wrote: »

Luck is an non-existing factor in a bossbattle. Either you play good and win, or you play bad and lose. Everyone makes mistakes. The trick is to learn from those mistakes and grow better after each mistake. Sure, you might not like games who are too challenging, but if you want something easier, then why don't you ask them to implement a "Weakling Mode" just for yourself?

Sorry, I think you're confusing luck for skill. I mean, I can understand you don't have any familiarity with the latter. You see, in a skill based game, victory depends on the decisions, actions, and finesse the player demonstrates, and not on green numbers. Victory in TESO depends on green numbers.

In a challenging game, any player can take on any foe with enough skill, but, that's not the case here. Step off the boat at level 3, and wander into Vet content and you would be smeared all over the walls, regardless of your supposed prowess at the game. It doesn't matter how good you are, it only matters how good your gear is, what level you are, and if you can adequately pound on the keys like a well trained chihuahua. That, in case there was some confusion, is not skill.

TheAmu

The problem with the concept of "Play how you want" and having the ability to build a character from a certain offering of skills and buffs means that, fundamentally, necessarily, the game needs to provide different paths to victory.

What should not be the case is that the game requires you to find a specific build that suits a situation. The game should provide multiple situations that suits your build.

That is what was so great about the ES games. There were always multiple ways, multiple paths to take and still get a result that satisfied the player. Whether you decided to avoid all combat (or as much of it as possible), whether you wanted to lockpick/pickpocket your way your riches, or you just wanted to explore the wilderness and set up a little shelter for yourself.

TESO is so narrow. You follow the main quest or you just don't progress at all. You are forced into battles or you won't progress. You can't just be a dedicated crafter because you won't earn enough skill points or be able to traverse the land for ingredients because you can't fight the creatures there.

TESO will become a fantastic game when it offers the player multiple paths to progress.

For example:

Crafting quests could help you progress as a dedicated crafter.

Sneaking quests where you have to avoid combat at all costs.

Hunting quests where you have to track certain creatures and turn in their pelts for rewards.

Barding quests (and appropriate skilltree/disciplines like lute, flute, singing) where you have you entertain crowds. Could be really fun and amusing and offer an alternative to fighting.

So far the only way to progress is through combat. So you can play how you want, so long as you want to fight all the things!

starkerealm

TheAmu wrote: »

So far the only way to progress is through combat. So you can play how you want, so long as you want to fight all the things!

To be fair, that is kind of the case with the main games. You can theoretically make a pure stealth character in Morrowind, Oblivion, or Skyrim, but it will run dry at various levels. And, eventually all of your quest lines will force you into a situation where you're just killing things and taking their stuff.

One of the biggest disappointments for me with Morrowind was the discovery that the Agent was such a terrible and pointless class.

I do agree with you though. And, even more than that, I'd love to see combat offer different approaches to enemies... I'm going to spitball on my hated bugbear for a second, the Harvester fights.

Sorcerors have the ability to cast negate magic on them, at which point the Harvester just sits there and pleads you to snuff it... but... what if that caused it to frenzy, switching to a physical attack set?

If Stealth players had options that would impair it's ability to summon the orbs, and if heavy armor characters had an option that would, when grabbed by the feast, retaliate, viciously?

It could make it feel more like each game approach had a different experience. Wouldn't help with needing to kill things to advance, but still.

Cogo

Alphashado wrote: »

This issue isn't going to go away. It is just going to grow in intensity as more and more casual players advance and hit roadblocks. The solution is simple. Allow people to invite one friend to help them with solo fights. It would make couples happy. It would make casual players happy because they could just ask a friend or guildy to help them, and it would make most hardcore players happy because nothing would get nerfed and they could still solo everything to their heart's content.

Just give people an option to duo quests. Problem solved for everyone.

No!

Sakiri

Cogo wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

This issue isn't going to go away. It is just going to grow in intensity as more and more casual players advance and hit roadblocks. The solution is simple. Allow people to invite one friend to help them with solo fights. It would make couples happy. It would make casual players happy because they could just ask a friend or guildy to help them, and it would make most hardcore players happy because nothing would get nerfed and they could still solo everything to their heart's content.

Just give people an option to duo quests. Problem solved for everyone.

No!

Care to elaborate with something that cannot be summed up with "ouch, my ego!"?

starkerealm

Sakiri wrote: »

Cogo wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

This issue isn't going to go away. It is just going to grow in intensity as more and more casual players advance and hit roadblocks. The solution is simple. Allow people to invite one friend to help them with solo fights. It would make couples happy. It would make casual players happy because they could just ask a friend or guildy to help them, and it would make most hardcore players happy because nothing would get nerfed and they could still solo everything to their heart's content.

Just give people an option to duo quests. Problem solved for everyone.

No!

Care to elaborate with something that cannot be summed up with "ouch, my ego!"?

But, why? Is Cogo not a creature of eloquence and subtly?

Bromburak

TheAmu wrote: »

The problem with the concept of "Play how you want" and having the ability to build a character from a certain offering of skills and buffs means that, fundamentally, necessarily, the game needs to provide different paths to victory.

What should not be the case is that the game requires you to find a specific build that suits a situation. The game should provide multiple situations that suits your build.

Some fights require to switch certain skills dependent on the situation and enemies. This makes it interesting because you always play active your class without falling into stupid routines and anytimer builds.

You don't need to change your "core" build but you need to adjust it sometimes.
Certain situations make you rethink your current build and you might come to the conclusion to replace 1-2 skills for now or might requires equipping a different armor set etc..

Thats what makes TESO interesting because different spots require different strategies.

starkerealm

Bromburak wrote: »

Thats what makes TESO interesting because different spots require different strategies.

This can get problematic fast, though. The Secret World went this route, and by the time you get to the QL10 zones, enemies frequently require very specific builds to clear, (unless you're in Blue or higher gear and can brute force everything.)

Initially it was a neat puzzle thing, but over time it just turned tedious. You look at an enemy, you switch to the appropriate status effect, and then you wade in. If you screwed up, you die, respawn, and start over, if you got it right, the fight's over in short order, uneventfully.

It might seem like a cool idea, but, in the long term, it just doesn't work well.