Too many fights are just STUPID hard

Anastasia

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

To be honest , this game is really , really poorly balanced. Be the classes , be the mobs ...

And no , it got nothing to do with progression , my first fight with a boss in VR1 that i remember was a guy that could hit like a truck and was imu to CC , after that , a bunch of bosses that i could almost sleep fighting because they took CC and so on.

The game dif does not progress when you go foward , it just spikes then gets easy then goes insane again , then it is normal ...

There is no logic behind it , if you meet certain enemies you are **** , that simple.

Im almost vet7 , and no , still jumps from time to time lols.

---

I am sorry because I hear the frustrations here and from some other people about this in particular:

..."it got nothing to do with progression , my first fight with a boss in VR1 that i remember was a guy that could hit like a truck and was imu to CC , after that , a bunch of bosses that i could almost sleep fighting because they took CC and so on."

---

I think you and others put these posts up because you are looking for suggestions and tips as to how to figure these situations out. Its not logical at all to assume a request to change basic game vision or design is going to happen though.

For the most part when I game, I take the game as it is presented to me. I 'figure out' tactics that are finally successful at some point, maybe take a few notes in case I ever alt through there again and then I'm on my way. I get help when I need to/try to. I don't spend a lot of time, well almost zero time, trying to analyze why this game has this feature, why doesn't it provide that, etc. Of course, I note comparisions to other games I've played, but I don't have expectations for this game to change and be like the other ones.

I'm so glad to see others in our community giving tips and explanations to help each other - thats a very cool thing here in TESO. I feel like I'm being Captain Obvious when I say for players to just maybe, consider:

The fact that various dungeons, various quests, various boss mobs/end of quest mobs have VARYING degrees of difficulty IS the design. Since its in place throughout many levels, it can't possibly be a 'bug', something that needs to be 'fixed' - these devs created this particular feature to have variable difficulty on various fights. The need to 'change it up' or have alternate(s) as far as the skills on your hotbar(s) you use in combination with your basic attacks, BLOCKS, DODGES and INTERRUPTS is the defacto.

You take what IS, and work it. Some may love that, some may not - for others if they would just see that, maybe it would make more sense for them. Having linear, each-boss-provides-slightly-different-but-always-incrementally-raised-levels-of-difficulty isn't what we have here.

What we have here are variables. Its meant to provide variety. You choose whether you want a game with the same-oh-same-oh, or one which you can't hop on with your 15 minutes of playtime before work and cruise through the next dungeon corridor that is new for you without having to spend time figuring out what works.

It just is. Opinion of whats fun is individual and if your fun is basically new games that are extremely like former games you've played, but just new in the sense of world-building and scenery etc - thats ok, thats what you have fun with.

If you are a player who has been waiting around forever for something that changes it up, that has enough elements that make it feel familiar like other mmo's but has a few fresh, varying, differing features as well - THIS IS SO IT.

Here's to hoping Zen will continue with the Battle Royale against the frickkin bots, continue to give attention to actual bugs/broken things with each patch period, and continue to develop new content for later. Thats what they've been doing, and I'm glad if not a little impatient for some of it to occur sooner ;o).

TESO is my mmo variety of choice...for when I'm alert, and have the time to figure things out. When I feel like a little gaming more on autopilot, I can jump in and harvest, chat it up with guildies etc. But thats not the optimum time for me to complete end of line quests or new dungeons. ^-^

Good journeys!

aleister

I'm surprised by the replies to this. I came back expecting nothing but a string of "L2P, loser"-type posts. I see a couple, sure, but I think enough people are expressing a similar sentiment in this and other threads that I hope ZOS will take notice and acknowledge that there is a problem here.

I think the core issue here is balance. It's clear that many of these fights were not tested across enough different character types and playing styles. It really goes against the "play how you like" theme that is encouraged by the class/skill system if in the end, I actually need a very particular spec to win some fights.
And winning fights by exploiting weakness in the AI is cheap, but that does appear to be most viable (only?) option in a lot of these situations.

Another sign of imbalance is that usually in the super-difficult fights I'm talking about they are book-ended by fights that are trivially easy. I've been through a few now where the first boss is bone-headedly easy, the second boss is near brick-wall impossible and the final boss, which you would think should be the hardest, is even easier than the first. That's imbalance.

In fact that's a summation of the game's experience overall: long periods of wholly unchallenging tedium punctuated by rage-inducing frustration.

Tavore1138

starkerealm wrote: »

Bromburak wrote: »

ToBbErT wrote: »

I totally agree with the OP. The game feels like it was balanced by a 10 year old kid.

When reading all those threads its players that request low difficulty for 10 year old ...

Here's the thing, I've been taking some time off of ESO and actually dug Dark Souls out of my backlog...

Now, I'm not sure if I agree with those who claim that Dark Souls is the hardest game of the generation (STALKER with mods is still far, far crueler). But the game is challenging, and I haven't had a death that didn't, genuinely, feel like it was my own fault: because I just suck, and didn't realize it, because I screwed up, or because I hadn't seen that pattern before and OHGODMYFACE*splat*

The Harvester fights? They're just cheap. It's not my fault that the Harvester decided it had had enough of my crap, and decided to spam that tracking pulse attack. It wasn't my fault that it decided the best plan of action, while The Feast was active, was to use it again. If blocking had stopped The Feast, then, sure, that'd be my fault, but it picked me up through a block, and then popped out another 4 orbs, bringing the total to 8... briefly, before the first four caught up with it.

If there was a moment of player interaction that could have affected the outcome, then, yes, I'd be fine with it, but it's the stuff where it's an instant, random, "you lose" button the boss can flick whenever it feels like, that it's no longer challenging, and just irritating.

I'll take a challenging game, a difficult, unfair, and unforgiving one. But, this, it's none of those. I'm just waiting for the AI to break so I can actually finish her off.

So much this, challenging is good, learning from failure is fine... Arbitrary is silly.

I work for a living, I do well from doing so & when I get to my valuable play time I want a challenge that makes sense not silly stuff.

KerinKor

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

It seems you guys never learned to appreciate challenges, you want everything handed to you on a silver plate and I pity you. Did you guys ever compete in any sport? I dont think so, because your attitude just doesn`t fit.

Ignoring your condescending comments, your problem is that you're one of the herd who think "I think it's fun so everyone else should".

Your idea of a challenge probably isn't mine but that doesn't make you superior or me in need of your pity: shove it!

And yes I play sports though not team games and am perfectly fine winning or losing .. your point about attitude is ... ?

Also, in a game where the RNG rules, personal skill often is trumped by maths, think about it!

Catflinger

KerinKor wrote: »

Seroczynski wrote: »

MasterSpatula wrote: »

Zeeed wrote: »

harvesters *** me over dozens of times like 5-6 attempt most of the time. And thats the way i like it

I literally don't understand how anyone, even one single person in the world, actually says, "I died 6 times before I succeeded. That's the way I like it."

It has to do with a feeling of achievement. I can relate to the original quote.

In cases like that my reaction is usually relief I don't have to do it again, rarely does repeatedly dieing and then getting a lucky break from the RNG feel like an achievement: I 'won' because the RNG was kind, not because I suddenly got better.

You don't ever think about what you're doing in a fight, what's going on in a fight, how you can change up your skills to succeed? You just pray to the RNG gods every time, really?

Artemiisia

I believe that some of the fights reasons behind they are so hard, is to prepare us for the next zone, and for other future things to come.

you will learn that some of your skills in your cast bar, starts to suck and need to rethink your tactics over and over again, so you wont be using the same skills for the rest of the game.

the fights for me have actually improved my survivability to great levels, I suddenly find myself a better player (not better then others) better player then I was before, my gamestyle keeps involving so should everyone else's if they wanna get through the game.

So back to OP post, I really really hope they never nerf the bosses, its really the best way to learn your class, and the better we all learn our class and the tactics around the bosses in this case, the better we start to be part of the groups we join.

Mojomonkeyman

KerinKor wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

It seems you guys never learned to appreciate challenges, you want everything handed to you on a silver plate and I pity you. Did you guys ever compete in any sport? I dont think so, because your attitude just doesn`t fit.

Ignoring your condescending comments, your problem is that you're one of the herd who think "I think it's fun so everyone else should".

Your idea of a challenge probably isn't mine but that doesn't make you superior or me in need of your pity: shove it!

And yes I play sports though not team games and am perfectly fine winning or losing .. your point about attitude is ... ?

Also, in a game where the RNG rules, personal skill often is trumped by maths, think about it!

I was never talking about superiority. I was talking about attitude. If you interprete that as me thinking I`m superior, well thats your problem, not mine. I actually made clear twice that I`m just talking about me and I feel sorry for others who never experienced that it is really rewarding to be patient enough to accept that some improvements (as a player, sportsmen, whatever) take time and effort.

Just because you decided that it must be the big bad RNG that makes you lose, doesnt make it a fact. I did never feel that this game is more dependend on RNG than others. Do you want every fight to be the same, a repetition of rotations? I dont. I want to be surprised by encounters. I want to be challenged by altering behaviour of encounters. I never felt I died because of RNG, I died because I didnt play well enough. Period. Thats the difference of attitude im talking about.

You sound offended, that`s pretty much your attitude carrying over to real life. Nerf me, because I was expressing my opinion. Thanks for implying I`m member of some kind of mob that is trying to make myself superior, pretty low try. I just like challenge, there are so many easy games out there it is almost impossible for guys like me to find a game that is making it hard. I think TESO is an acceptable middle ground. I dont want that to change, nothing more. I think my opinion holds exactly the same value as yours.

Regards

starkerealm

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

KerinKor wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

It seems you guys never learned to appreciate challenges, you want everything handed to you on a silver plate and I pity you. Did you guys ever compete in any sport? I dont think so, because your attitude just doesn`t fit.

Ignoring your condescending comments, your problem is that you're one of the herd who think "I think it's fun so everyone else should".

Your idea of a challenge probably isn't mine but that doesn't make you superior or me in need of your pity: shove it!

And yes I play sports though not team games and am perfectly fine winning or losing .. your point about attitude is ... ?

Also, in a game where the RNG rules, personal skill often is trumped by maths, think about it!

I was never talking about superiority. I was talking about attitude. If you interprete that as me thinking I`m superior, well thats your problem, not mine. I actually made clear twice that I`m just talking about me and I feel sorry for others who never experienced that it is really rewarding to be patient enough to accept that some improvements (as a player, sportsmen, whatever) take time and effort.

Just because you decided that it must be the big bad RNG that makes you lose, doesnt make it a fact. I did never feel that this game is more dependend on RNG than others. Do you want every fight to be the same, a repetition of rotations? I dont. I want to be surprised by encounters. I want to be challenged by altering behaviour of encounters. I never felt I died because of RNG, I died because I didnt play well enough. Period. Thats the difference of attitude im talking about.

You sound offended, that`s pretty much your attitude carrying over to real life. Nerf me, because I was expressing my opinion. Thanks for implying I`m member of some kind of mob that is trying to make myself superior, pretty low try. I just like challenge, there are so many easy games out there it is almost impossible for guys like me to find a game that is making it hard. I think TESO is an acceptable middle ground. I dont want that to change, nothing more. I think my opinion holds exactly the same value as yours.

Regards

I'm up for a challenge. Not all the time, mind, but a good, solid, challenging MMO? That could be fun... problem is, TESO isn't. Maybe if I got to veteran ranks, and ground my way through broken levels, but in the mean time, it's not challenging.

It is janky. I am seeing enemies designed to play off group mechanics in forced solo zones. I'm seeing enemies with attacks that actually can't be avoided or countered. I'm seeing situations where there simply isn't an effective way to deal with the current situation on the class I'm playing.

None of those are challenges. You can call them hard, if you want, that's probably, kind of, true. But, it's not actually a difficult game; it is just, at times, for some players, a broken one.

dkrleza

MasterSpatula wrote: »

Zeeed wrote: »

harvesters *** me over dozens of times like 5-6 attempt most of the time. And thats the way i like it

I literally don't understand how anyone, even one single person in the world, actually says, "I died 6 times before I succeeded. That's the way I like it."

You just don't get that, for some people, fighting the same enemy six times before finally getting past it (and usually, you're not doing anything different. you just got lucky the sixth time) is BORING. Tedious, repetitive, dull, dull, dull. It's like reading a novel, only being forced to read the same page six times just because the novelist just decided your time wasn't valuable and you really shouldn't be enjoying the experience anyway.

Some things in this game present a truly difficult, interesting challenge. Pre-nerf Doshia, for example, was hard but not so hard you couldn't learn the trick in time to take her out. But "immune to CC, ludicrous DPS, absurd health" isn't an interesting challenge; it's not an engaging difficulty to overcome; it's just uncreatively, unoriginally, dumbly hard.

No one's asking for easy. No one's asking for "faceroll." But it would be nice to see boringly-hard replaced with interesting and rewarding challenges--and to see our valuable time treated with respect.

Your post reeks on begging for nerfs.

It is perfectly fine to fight the same opponent 5 or 6 times. If opponent takes less than that, then its complexity is very low. Very low complexity in fights usually leads to brainless button mashing 1,2,1,2,1,2. These are the fights that I don't want to fight. Tank and spank fights are just boooring and dull, dull, dull. These are the fights you want to do in everyday world npc fights, but not in dungeons.

Let me give you an example. There is a quest where you need to fight Worm Cult lady boss and her daedric minion. So, she heals for A LOT, herself and hers minion aswell. This minion is doing tons of damage and if you're a bit squishy character, you will have real problems with this fight. So, the first idea that crossed my mind is to kill her first. Kill the healer. However, this is very hard, since you need to concentrate on survival, interrupt her timely, do quite high damage output at the same time, watch not to get out of the stamina, etc... So, I died couple of times horribly. Then I realized that the minion can be killed first, without engaging her into fight. Even after that, she was a tough cookie to kill. You can see her rotation and spells she is doing, and to you can anticipate when the heal is going to land. I died 8 times on this encounter. However, for me, this was one of the most interesting fights in the game. Because it forced me to rethink and polish my strategy.

And this is the reason why you post is just a blatant begging for nerfs.

Kililin

starkerealm wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

KerinKor wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

It seems you guys never learned to appreciate challenges, you want everything handed to you on a silver plate and I pity you. Did you guys ever compete in any sport? I dont think so, because your attitude just doesn`t fit.

Ignoring your condescending comments, your problem is that you're one of the herd who think "I think it's fun so everyone else should".

Your idea of a challenge probably isn't mine but that doesn't make you superior or me in need of your pity: shove it!

And yes I play sports though not team games and am perfectly fine winning or losing .. your point about attitude is ... ?

Also, in a game where the RNG rules, personal skill often is trumped by maths, think about it!

I was never talking about superiority. I was talking about attitude. If you interprete that as me thinking I`m superior, well thats your problem, not mine. I actually made clear twice that I`m just talking about me and I feel sorry for others who never experienced that it is really rewarding to be patient enough to accept that some improvements (as a player, sportsmen, whatever) take time and effort.

Just because you decided that it must be the big bad RNG that makes you lose, doesnt make it a fact. I did never feel that this game is more dependend on RNG than others. Do you want every fight to be the same, a repetition of rotations? I dont. I want to be surprised by encounters. I want to be challenged by altering behaviour of encounters. I never felt I died because of RNG, I died because I didnt play well enough. Period. Thats the difference of attitude im talking about.

You sound offended, that`s pretty much your attitude carrying over to real life. Nerf me, because I was expressing my opinion. Thanks for implying I`m member of some kind of mob that is trying to make myself superior, pretty low try. I just like challenge, there are so many easy games out there it is almost impossible for guys like me to find a game that is making it hard. I think TESO is an acceptable middle ground. I dont want that to change, nothing more. I think my opinion holds exactly the same value as yours.

Regards

I'm up for a challenge. Not all the time, mind, but a good, solid, challenging MMO? That could be fun... problem is, TESO isn't. Maybe if I got to veteran ranks, and ground my way through broken levels, but in the mean time, it's not challenging.

It is janky. I am seeing enemies designed to play off group mechanics in forced solo zones. I'm seeing enemies with attacks that actually can't be avoided or countered. I'm seeing situations where there simply isn't an effective way to deal with the current situation on the class I'm playing.

None of those are challenges. You can call them hard, if you want, that's probably, kind of, true. But, it's not actually a difficult game; it is just, at times, for some players, a broken one.

It feels unfair sometimes.
Things can be difficult or hard without being unfair.
e.g.
I have done the Molag Fight on different chars, for example, and it was faceroll vs. wtf-challenging just because the characters/skillsets are different.

Imo this is also why there are threads on the whole spectrum between to hard and to easy.

Winnower

I don't find this game a challenge at all, really. It was a pleasant surprise to learn that Doshia / (and later other harvesters) actually had a strategy that was more than just mash one button. I was disappointed when they nerfed her.

Septima Tharn, Mannimarco, Haskill, etc.; haven't found a fight yet that took me more than 2-6 tries to get it down.

I don't expect to beat a new fight right away.

I'm not at all a theory-crafting hardcore skill min-maxing player. I know about that stuff some because 14 years ago that part of the game was fun to me, but now I just sort of muddle through. I'm over half a century and my reflexes just aren't what they used to be.

But 98% of this game doesn't require any actual "video game" skill.

And I'm honestly surprised that there are people who find it to be so, who don't have obvious physical or mental limitations. I understand that there are some people who just aren't good at basic video game hand-eye coordination or who don't even bother to look at the math *at all*, but if they are this way I don't get why they'd want to play the game.

I do understand that in any group of people at any level of difficulty some people are going to have problems for whatever reason.

I can only hope that they don't continue to nerf our game experience to the point where it is a total ***-hum, never die, never have to think play style.

I'm not responding to the original poster in this thread. I'm putting these comments in because I'm trying to be thoughtful and let people who are interested in this topic know that some of us *don't* see the game as being sufficiently challenging, and don't understand *how it is hard*. And the occasional bugging out of a mob doesn't count. And that we don't want the game made easier.

Commonpain

I personally think the Difficulty in the game is fine.

That said there are some things the Devs need to look at. If we for example take those Harvesters:

I have a NB and a Templar in VR leveling currently. With the NB I experienced the Harvesters just right, maybe even a bit too weak. With the Bow i could kill those healing balls one after another in a matter of seconds and nuke the boss down after that.

With the Templar though, phew lets say it was a bit too hard, but ONLY because the animations of Destro Staff and Resto Staff (Weapons used by my Templar) have way too long animations even for the light attack to be able to kill all balls before they reached him. Managed to kill them only with ultimate ready (Nova) as all my other ae's were not freely placeable.

Another thing is the Damage they put out. If the wave of the Harvester hit me (Lv. 49 for example with 1/3 points in HP, Armor and Spell resist over soft cap)
And it used the Soul Thing afterwards, i was dead. fact. So yes, unless you have a very large health pool, youre dead in under 1 sec from full hp.

If this would be a boss - OK^^ no problem here, I like dying sometimes because it rewards you for your efforts

But those things (in Coldharbour for example a the court of bones) its not more than simple trash and thus far overpowered...


Then there's Boss fights (Molag Bal anyone?) that are far FAR too easy to actually feel rewarding. Same as CC'able Bosses (Magnum Shot Spam easymode kills o.O).

---

Conclusion - Make the game hard so that it feels rewarding. But during normal leveling dont make every thrashpull frighten you to death (literally).

Cheers

MasterSpatula

Ummm, this wasn't condescending?

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

I really don`t understand the sense of entitlement some of you have to faceroll through everything.

Not only was that deeply condescending; it was also intellectually dishonest. You start off your argument by lying about and insulting your opponents. No one said this. There's literally no argument to be made that anyone did. In fact, everyone has said precisely the opposite. But honesty wouldn't allow you to belittle anyone.

I see someone say: "I like it challenging, but dying 6 times is unacceptable" and I feel so sorry for you guys because you never learned to appreciate the rewarding feeling it gives you if you overcome a challenge finally after countless attempts because you were actually forced to learn the ins and outs of the fight.

You fundamentally fail to understand. Speaking for myself only, If I come up against a truly challenging opponent, nearly dying in a difficult fight, and survive by the skin of my teeth, I feel a huge feeling of accomplishment. If I die, decide to play smarter, and win the second time, I feel a strong feeling of accomplishment.

After that point, the feeling of accomplishment has diminishing returns.

If I die after the third time, it's pretty rare that "play smarter" is the problem. It does happen that I sometimes still need to adapt, but more often, at that point I'm not facing an interesting challenge; I'm facing a Random Number Generator.

"Wow, finally got lucky" gives me no feeling of accomplishment. After six deaths, I no longer feel that nervous, giddy rush of challenge I felt the first time through the fight. At that point, all I feel is anger. And winning doesn't make that anger go away.

Tannakaobi

Blackwidow wrote: »

I want to disagree with you, but I don't want to come across as some ass that just says I better that you, so suck it up.

So, if there is a way to make your game better, but it will not effect my game, I'm all for it.

I agree, and it highlights another question:

Why do mmo's not have difficulty levels? I mean, it would be easy right? Different servers have different difficulty, it would be harder for eso but still, phases and what not...

Also I think the mega server was a bad idea... I like the idea, but imo PVP, RP and PVE should be separate. So maybe three not so mega servers would be better with just PVP campaigns being mixed.

For me open world PVP would really boost ESO, but It's totally understandable that other people would not want this. An on/off switch with a 15 minute cooldown would be fine. Dueling at the very least. and of course penalty's such as prison/xp loss... for fighting in towns.

starkerealm

Kililin wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

KerinKor wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

It seems you guys never learned to appreciate challenges, you want everything handed to you on a silver plate and I pity you. Did you guys ever compete in any sport? I dont think so, because your attitude just doesn`t fit.

Ignoring your condescending comments, your problem is that you're one of the herd who think "I think it's fun so everyone else should".

Your idea of a challenge probably isn't mine but that doesn't make you superior or me in need of your pity: shove it!

And yes I play sports though not team games and am perfectly fine winning or losing .. your point about attitude is ... ?

Also, in a game where the RNG rules, personal skill often is trumped by maths, think about it!

I was never talking about superiority. I was talking about attitude. If you interprete that as me thinking I`m superior, well thats your problem, not mine. I actually made clear twice that I`m just talking about me and I feel sorry for others who never experienced that it is really rewarding to be patient enough to accept that some improvements (as a player, sportsmen, whatever) take time and effort.

Just because you decided that it must be the big bad RNG that makes you lose, doesnt make it a fact. I did never feel that this game is more dependend on RNG than others. Do you want every fight to be the same, a repetition of rotations? I dont. I want to be surprised by encounters. I want to be challenged by altering behaviour of encounters. I never felt I died because of RNG, I died because I didnt play well enough. Period. Thats the difference of attitude im talking about.

You sound offended, that`s pretty much your attitude carrying over to real life. Nerf me, because I was expressing my opinion. Thanks for implying I`m member of some kind of mob that is trying to make myself superior, pretty low try. I just like challenge, there are so many easy games out there it is almost impossible for guys like me to find a game that is making it hard. I think TESO is an acceptable middle ground. I dont want that to change, nothing more. I think my opinion holds exactly the same value as yours.

Regards

I'm up for a challenge. Not all the time, mind, but a good, solid, challenging MMO? That could be fun... problem is, TESO isn't. Maybe if I got to veteran ranks, and ground my way through broken levels, but in the mean time, it's not challenging.

It is janky. I am seeing enemies designed to play off group mechanics in forced solo zones. I'm seeing enemies with attacks that actually can't be avoided or countered. I'm seeing situations where there simply isn't an effective way to deal with the current situation on the class I'm playing.

None of those are challenges. You can call them hard, if you want, that's probably, kind of, true. But, it's not actually a difficult game; it is just, at times, for some players, a broken one.

It feels unfair sometimes.
Things can be difficult or hard without being unfair.
e.g.
I have done the Molag Fight on different chars, for example, and it was faceroll vs. wtf-challenging just because the characters/skillsets are different.

Imo this is also why there are threads on the whole spectrum between to hard and to easy.

It's not even by class, sometimes. We end up in situations where two different dual wield nightblades are on opposite sides of the OMGWTFBBQ and faceroll wall because one's speced more into Assassination and the other's loaded to the gills with Siphon.

MasterSpatula

dkrleza wrote: »

Your post reeks on begging for nerfs.

Sheer, unadulterated horsecrap.

Let me give you an example. There is a quest where you need to fight Worm Cult lady boss and her daedric minion. So, she heals for A LOT, herself and hers minion aswell. This minion is doing tons of damage and if you're a bit squishy character, you will have real problems with this fight. [snip] I died 8 times on this encounter. However, for me, this was one of the most interesting fights in the game. Because it forced me to rethink and polish my strategy.

This is exactly the kind of good boss fight I'm encouraging. An interesting challenge, way more than just unoriginally-and-uncreatively hard.

The only "nerf" I might suggest here is that, if it took you eight times to figure out how to beat the boss, then maybe a slight tweak to the DPS might be needed--not to make the fight easy, but to give you time to figure out the strategy sooner. But I don't know; I haven't faced this encounter yet. It might just be that it took eight different strategies to find the winner, in which case no tweak would be necessary. I can't say, since I haven't done it myself.

But, all in all, this sounds like exactly the kind of content I wasn't talking about being boring. Which you know, since you read my post.

And this is the reason why you post is just a blatant begging for nerfs.

Clever narrative device, there. If you're going to put forth a boldfaced lie about what someone else said, why not throw in a word like blatant to trick casual readers into thinking your misrepresentation is an obvious truth?

Have you considered running for office?

starkerealm

MasterSpatula wrote: »

This is exactly the kind of good boss fight I'm encouraging. An interesting challenge, way more than just unoriginally-and-uncreatively hard.

The issue is conveying that, and a tactile element. If it feels like the boss is just splattering you because it feels like it, that's not going to result in a happy player. Even if you do have a solid feeling that failure is on the player's head, splattering them over and over won't keep them happy, outside of a small subset.

Unfortunately, with MMOs, you need to keep a happy player base. Players who feel like they're just getting screwed around won't stay.

I'm not saying it's impossible to offer a challenging experience in an MMO. I'm sure there's a way. But slamming players into a brick wall isn't the answer, just as The Secret World how their numbers are doing right now.

Kililin

Please post your class and rough skill-orientation if you claim the game is too easy.

i also have characters that are really easy. You know there are threads in this forum of DK specs soloing VR dungeons, including all bosses. (I think it is great that stuff like this is possible.) Such DK's probably also think that normal mobs or even open world elites are totally easy.

Nidwin

Bugs the hell out of me actually. I'm just going to find spots where I can grind out ez-mode NPC's, or tag bots to level up and get my stuff/equipment for the PVE part of the game. It's actually a pity I've to do PVE at all because of the need of gold, equipment to upgrade and skill points.

I miss Warhammer online AoR !!!

Syntse

starkerealm wrote: »

MasterSpatula wrote: »

This is exactly the kind of good boss fight I'm encouraging. An interesting challenge, way more than just unoriginally-and-uncreatively hard.

The issue is conveying that, and a tactile element. If it feels like the boss is just splattering you because it feels like it, that's not going to result in a happy player. Even if you do have a solid feeling that failure is on the player's head, splattering them over and over won't keep them happy, outside of a small subset.

Unfortunately, with MMOs, you need to keep a happy player base. Players who feel like they're just getting screwed around won't stay.

I'm not saying it's impossible to offer a challenging experience in an MMO. I'm sure there's a way. But slamming players into a brick wall isn't the answer, just as The Secret World how their numbers are doing right now.

And this is why possibility group in all content is important. You can keep bosses challenging enough for solo players. And those who have issues in defeating can call their friend, guild mate or someone to aid so they can advance and have fun.

zeuseason

Fights will, inevitably, get heavily refined in time. The game has been out, what, 6 weeks? All of the complaints on this forum read for a game that's been out for years.

Give it time. The 'I want it now or I'm leaving' generation is way too prissy.

Nooblet

There absolutely needs to be some fights in the game for organized guilds. If the best guilds clear it all and never wipe, its not hard enough.

If every random group is capable of clearing it, it is not hard enough for the top guilds.

This does not apply to all content, and I believe main story should remain on the casual side(which it currently is). But there certainly needs to be more difficult content that takes progress and learning mechanics to defeat.

So sorry, but I disagree and think there needs to be harder content (which I hope is coming with crag). I'm ok with the way rift did it... nerfing content after new content is released, so everyone can experience it if they haven't already cleared it all.

aleister

zeuseason wrote: »

Fights will, inevitably, get heavily refined in time. The game has been out, what, 6 weeks? All of the complaints on this forum read for a game that's been out for years.

Give it time. The 'I want it now or I'm leaving' generation is way too prissy.

I'm willing to give it time, but I'm not going to wait forever like some Stockholm-syndrome sufferer. Accessibility, balance and quality are key to a successful MMO and TESO has serious issues in all of these areas they need to address urgently.

Kililin

The game competes with the current market.
A company bringing out a new version of an old product has to compete with the actual market, not one of 20 years ago.
This argument, while often iterated, is not a good one.

Lodestar

Tannakaobi wrote: »

Blackwidow wrote: »

I want to disagree with you, but I don't want to come across as some ass that just says I better that you, so suck it up.

So, if there is a way to make your game better, but it will not effect my game, I'm all for it.

I agree, and it highlights another question:

Why do mmo's not have difficulty levels? I mean, it would be easy right? Different servers have different difficulty, it would be harder for eso but still, phases and what not...

Also I think the mega server was a bad idea... I like the idea, but imo PVP, RP and PVE should be separate. So maybe three not so mega servers would be better with just PVP campaigns being mixed.

For me open world PVP would really boost ESO, but It's totally understandable that other people would not want this. An on/off switch with a 15 minute cooldown would be fine. Dueling at the very least. and of course penalty's such as prison/xp loss... for fighting in towns.

The new closed City of Heroes did, and I am baffled why it is seldom seen outside that.

GreySix

I'm all about challenging play, but this is an MMO, so it would be nice to be able to stay in a group of two throughout the game.

All about suspension of disbelief too, but when my wife and I are two "only" vestiges out of half a million playing simultaneously and we are grouped until ... wait ... suddenly we're not.

Broken.

Merlin13KAGL

Winnower wrote: »

I don't find this game a challenge at all, really. It was a pleasant surprise to learn that Doshia / (and later other harvesters) actually had a strategy that was more than just mash one button. I was disappointed when they nerfed her.

I can only hope that they don't continue to nerf our game experience to the point where it is a total ***-hum, never die, never have to think play style.

I'm not responding to the original poster in this thread. I'm putting these comments in because I'm trying to be thoughtful and let people who are interested in this topic know that some of us *don't* see the game as being sufficiently challenging, and don't understand *how it is hard*. And the occasional bugging out of a mob doesn't count. And that we don't want the game made easier.

Have to agree here...I had to work to kill Doshia...and it certainly didn't happen the first (few) times. I recall being in that fight and truly feeling as if she was nipping at my heals a few times.

It was a challenge and finally an accomplishment... It was earned

Most of what I and my friend encounter seem to be one extreme or the other...most, in my personal experience, leaning towards being too easy...

I should be dying more than I am...or at least coming closer to that thin red line than what I often do. This is especially true of dungeons and world bosses...

There don't seem to be as many "Uh oh...Shouldn't have wandered in here" moments as their were in the standalone games...

I'd love to see some coding that would let the game (optionally or manually) auto-adjust your difficulty on a grander scale... I'm talking gradual changes over time based on gameplay, etc.

We have to change our strategies...I'd love to see some of that evolution happen with our enemies as well... It would be nice to see an archer pull out a dagger when you get close or something other than a necromancer cast the occasional summons...

If what you're doing isn't working out and you can't find the 'strategy,' (I use this term lightly, because I think there should be more than one way to successfully complete something like a boss/area.), have a quest NPC pop up to offer optional suggestions/advice after a certain number of unsuccessful attempts...

(I wouldn't be opposed to someone 'sneaking in' to let me know "Psst...maybe you should come with me...you don't look like you're quite ready for this," or "I heard there's a book/person in ____ that might be able to give you some pointers about ___.") Get the latest lore/gossip from a bar patron, a guildmember, and Undaunted...heck, the traveling merchant..."I steer clear of that area because I;ve heard that monster has a killer ___ effect."

You can certainly have the option to ignore it and keep chipping away (and potentially keep dying) or you can take the 'advice.' You could even set the number of 'fails' before this would trigger...

I'd like a more advanced AI...(Fear/crazy factor, for instance...Sure that enemy is loyal to his cause...but when he starts to get low on health, he might temporarily rethink his priorities and try to Kite you...) (I remember having Mages in Morrowind downing invisibility potions when they figured out they were outmatched.)

We went into a Crypt of Hearts the other night (4 man L28-30 in Rivenspire) with three guys...one of which was only a level 17...

It was nice to have a challenge...to have to work for it...

We didn't expect to not die... But we couldn't rightly not peek in the door, either.

Kililin wrote: »

I like hard fights, i can cope with fights where one error kills you.

But i have a problem with not knowing what happens, and some fights are really random. Like you are figuring out what you can do, switching skills around, and suddenly you win the fight without even using your thought out tactic, but the mob just used other/less abilities, or started to use more abilities.
Short explanation, more abilities is helpful in some cases because i am a vampire and bosses with fire auto attack can basically kill me with just auto attack, while i can dodge and interrupt their skills.

I think the biggest problem is the randomness of some fights, difficulty is good, depending on RNG kind of bad.

I can agree with this also...Have gone to higher level stuff and sometimes mowed right through...have assisted others with lower level stuff and gotten torn up...

I realize there is a randomness factor to an extent...we don't want it to be completely the same each time.

On the same note, I look forward to the "Death Replay" they will implement soon...as sometimes it can be a bit annoying when you seem to be doing well, aren't being reckless or doing something stupid and you suddenly just fall over dead...

Makes it hard to adjust your strategy when you're not entirely sure what the heck just happened...

Some adjustments need to take place, definitely...Boss/dungeon fights shouldn't be over in 20 seconds, 5 on 1 (I don't care if they're 10 levels or more below me) should still make me work for it, and just cause it looks like an archer/mage doesn't mean it always has to act like an archer/mage...

On a side note...I'd love to see a rage/death strike/adrenalin effect available...
If I'm about to die (or any other creature, that matter ~ I don't expect this to be one sided.) give me 5 seconds of speed boost, extra power...etc. My stamina is limited...but if my life depends on it, I'm pretty sure I'll find a way to push a little harder (even if it costs me health in the process)...

I hate sprinting when being pursued only have my character nonchalantly return to a casual stroll...Evasion should be able to be just that. I also think no creature should have full immunity to anything...give me a 1% chance of knockdown on that Frost Atronach...it's not like it's going to happen very often, but when it does (at the appropriate difficulty), I will take it as a sign from the Divines that Fate decided to step in and save my butt...

The LUCK attribute was a factor in every standalone TES game...why shouldn't you have that glimpse of hope (or demise, as it should go both ways) in this one?

Do I want more nerfing? Not so much...would I like them to continue to fine-tune things in whichever reasonable direction they need to go? Definitely!

kewl

Can't speak for vet levels, but my experience has been mixed:

• Sorc (dps build) easily nukes mobs from orbit.
• DK (tank build) has enough self-healing to cut down huge packs with some difficulty.
• Templar (healing build) is Squishy McSquisher and struggles with packs of mobs. But I think that has more to do with a bad build.

dkrleza

Uf, Sorcerer is also a squishy lad. Even with 1 or 2 shield abilities on actionbar you can have hard time facing multiple mobs.

Enkshar

I like challenge but there some thing that are stupid. Harvesters are really challenging, some time they are a bit OP if u find them in small rooms or with adds that may CC.

A boss templar capable of healing through a Soul assault (mines does 2.6K in 3.9sec) as if it were a mosquito bite, with more than 14K hp and infinite magika is stupid (ive seen this type of boss at end of quest with up to 24K hp)

The main problem is that this stupid things frustrate ppl to the point where they reroll or just quit.