Please Eliminate Forced-Solo Instances - Thanks

Sleepwalker

Oh man, if only ESO ran on the desire to call out logical fallacies!

Sakiri

Molag Bal's gauntlet isn't hard.

Not sure where anyone has that idea.

GreySix

It's clear that solo-only speed levelers will vehemently oppose the choice for others to group at all costs, so my request is hardly geared toward you, especially in light of your complete inability to affect the change we seek anyway.

This request was, and remains targeted to the developers of the game.

Chirru

GreySix wrote: »

My wife and I play subscription online games like ESO for one reason, and one reason only: We like to play cooperatively, often while geographically separated.

Forcing our characters into solo-only instances in the main quest line disallows us to do so.

When we played SWTOR, never once were we forced into solo-only play, yet those who desired to solo such instances were still able to do so. It was a choice, left up to the players.

... and SWTOR got so much wrong.

Please fix this, or we will unsubscribe soon. Thanks.

Edit: To mimimize confusion, I've copied and pasted some more information here:

Current configuration:

1. There are public dungeons, where it is first-come, first-served. I'm not referring to those.
2. There are instanced dungeons that allow either solo-only instances or grouped instances. Keep those as are, since they facilitate player choice.
3. There are currently solo-only dungeons, wherein grouping is not allowed.

Proposal: Fix Number 3 to allow what we see in Number 2 . Solo players would still be allowed to solo such content without seeing other players, and grouped players would be allowed to group such instances.

Have been crying for this since Beta....do you think they listen? Deaf in both ears and in between also.

Chirru

Srugzal wrote: »

GreySix wrote: »

Covarnis wrote: »

To my understanding, solo instances are minimal (3 quest lines each 5-7 levels).

The main quest line is forced-solo. That is unacceptable.

I wouldn't say forced solo, I'd say solo-by-design. Which suggests a question. Suppose they allowed grouping into the main story line. How would that work, exactly, as far as the story, you the Soul Shriven hero that defeats Molag Bal and saves Tamriel? How could it be made into a group experience? See, the story is important here, not like in other MMOs where questing is more about quick leveling and into the endgame than about driving a story--or so I've been told.

And it's not like you can actually do the quest all in one go, hours of enforced solitude as it were. Every 5 levels you have a single quest with a boss fight at the end. It seems to me to be an extreme position. For one thing, group boss fights are a LOT easier. If they buffed the fights to make them challenging to groups (like the Undaunted Dungeons), then they'd be essentially unplayable by single players. Now you want two different bosses, depending on whether it's a solo player or not? What if the solo player calls in reinforcements? What then? Do you see why this is just an untenable idea? It's impossible to maintain the integrity of the story and make these quests multiplayer.

Who says the Hero of the tale can not take a buddy along? ... even Batman has his off-sider...thinking of it...apart from maybe Superman every Hero has... no, there is nothing in the story that forbids to play the now forced solo quests as a pair. Is the Hero not allowed to have friends? This is an MMO and NOT a single player game!!!!!!!!!!

As for difficulty... why set it higher for a group of two? That would defeat the purpose of the exercise which is.... to make the fights easier.

Vecchine

@Op

no, thx

Sleepwalker

Sakiri wrote: »

Molag Bal's gauntlet isn't hard.

Not sure where anyone has that idea.

Agreed. Neither is Doshia, neither is Mannimarco... the list goes on. And yet, here we are. People asking the developers to change the game because they can't get past that content. *shrug*

GreySix

Chirru wrote: »

Who says the Hero of the tale can not take a buddy along? ... even Batman has his off-sider...thinking of it...apart from maybe Superman every Hero has... no, there is nothing in the story that forbids to play the now forced solo quests as a pair. Is the Hero not allowed to have friends? This is an MMO and NOT a single player game!!!!!!!!!!

As for difficulty... why set it higher for a group of two? That would defeat the purpose of the exercise which is.... to make the fights easier.

Perfectly reasonable request, but those who oppose choice will toss out hypothetical doom's-day scenarios, even though what we've requested would have absolutely no impact on their ability to solo the very same instances.

It simply defies logic.

Sakiri

Sleepwalker wrote: »

Sakiri wrote: »

Molag Bal's gauntlet isn't hard.

Not sure where anyone has that idea.

Agreed. Neither is Doshia, neither is Mannimarco... the list goes on. And yet, here we are. People asking the developers to change the game because they can't get past that content. *shrug*

No, I was saying Molag Bals gauntlet has no special mechanics to learn. Manni does. You can facetank the gauntlet. You cant facetank Manni.

huntgod_ESO

It is irritating to be grouped with a friend and everything is going great, you have been playing together for an hour and are nearing the completion of a quest line, you and you buddy charge in and poof, you are now in separate instances each having to fight Gutripper solo. You kill him no problem, your buddy, who is a little more game challenged can't do it and spends the next 30 or so minutes trying before giving up and determining to come back later. You have been twiddling your thumbs for 30 minutes and decide you are done for the day.

I too hate coming in to kill a boss and seeing 30 people standing around, he pops and I have to spam an instant attack to get a hit for kill credit, it sucks.

Do away with the solo fights, change them to 4 man and have them scale a bit. I would much rather have a harder fight but have a buddy along than an easy one solo.

There are about 6-7 fights like this throughout the game, I didn't have problems with them, but I've friends who banged their heads against the wall of Gutripper and a few others, given that their solution was to outlevel it and return when the fight was trivial, I don't think it's a succesful design choice.

Utildai

My wife and I do the solo dungeon's pretty much all the time together. As long as we are on the same quest lines, it works out fine.

Ady

This is an mmo. I didn't pay to be forced into doing solo missions. Swtor example is best. Go in an instance as a spectator to the story and help with fights.

As for those saying the challenge will be gone. Well you can still do it solo. I don't give a crap about "challenge" in my game I want to faceroll content pure and simple. Play with economy and get lots of armor variation and outfits. The point of an mmo is to be able to play with others if you so choose not be forced into solo content.

Either they adapt the game to be more like a mmo adding a global auction house, eliminating solo forced content and getting rid of the diminishing returns bs and forced loot timers. Or they don't and we shall see what comes of it. The least they can do is make a trade channel or allow us to make custom chat channels.

devincutlerb14_ESO

GreySix wrote: »

Sleepwalker wrote: »

If you're married, you'll already know that telling your wife she's doing it wrong after an enemy wipes the floor with her in an instanced dungeon where you can't help her out, is not a viable course of action. If you're not married, you'll have no idea what I'm talking about, and this will by necessity make no sense to you.

I am married and frankly if your wife cannot handle being told she is doing it wrong and given some advice to improve, then she shouldn't be gaming. She is either taking it too seriously or she doesn't have the makeup to play serious games.

It's one thing if after 20 wipes trying a bunch of different tactics she throws in the towel and over levels. It's another thing entirely if you cannot even give her some advice and have her try different approaches.

Yes, you can go and over level and come back...up to a point. What do you plan on doing with the end quests...where they are level 45-50 and you cannot advance beyond 50? You best learn how to master these bosses now or give up on the end game and post 50 content.

A lot of these solo boss fights are impossible to win until you figure out what is going on and what to do...then they tend to become cake walks.

Example, with Doshia and the many other harvester bosses in the game I was getting my butt kicked because I didn't have a ranged AOE effect available. And trying to run around killing all those healing balls before they reached her was impossible. Then I tried using a ranged attack that also affects foes nearby your main target and to my surprise if you aimed it at Doshia it got all nearby healing balls as well! Now all I had to do was save enough magicka to use that power once I heard the gong go off and the fight went from frustrating to easy.

I am not a powergamer. I frankly suck at boss fights. I literally cannot dodge, I often accidentally switch my weapons mid battle, and sometimes accidentally switch the potion in my Q slot in the middle of battle. Yet I have been able to master every single solo boss. If clumsy me can do it, anyone can.

martinb16_ESO80

also, the thing is for example, if you level with a friend as tank/healer combo, and for some reason the healer never learned any AOE. The healer will get through most bosses until there is one (like Lyris in harvester form) where you either need to be very quick or have AOE. And then you are suddenly bashing your head against a wall because "playing as you like" does not work.

Most solo content, and especially in ESO, favours DPS.

Apricot

aipex8_ESO wrote: »

The thing is, if they no longer force you to do those quests solo, then NOBODY is going to do them solo. Everyone will grab a couple of guildies to wipe the floor with Manimarco or Molag Bal and suddenly the whole main quest is a faceroll.

Why would everyone do that? Isn't everyone having fun with the "challenge" of chipping away at the boss with white damage for twenty minutes while saving their measly resources for dodging and adds? No? Me either.

Melian

Well, apparently it's forbidden to say certain people should learn to play on here. Hm.

GreySix wrote:

If you're married, you'll already know that telling your wife she's doing it wrong after an enemy wipes the floor with her in an instanced dungeon where you can't help her out, is not a viable course of action. If you're not married, you'll have no idea what I'm talking about, and this will by necessity make no sense to you.

Hm, well, I'm married, and I have no problem telling my husband, or having him tell me "yeah, that guy is tough, it took me a lot of tries to beat him, here's what worked in the end" or whatever. There is a type of person that refuses to consider the possibility they ever have anything to learn, but that type isn't "wives".

Melian

Apricot wrote: »

aipex8_ESO wrote: »

The thing is, if they no longer force you to do those quests solo, then NOBODY is going to do them solo. Everyone will grab a couple of guildies to wipe the floor with Manimarco or Molag Bal and suddenly the whole main quest is a faceroll.

Why would everyone do that? Isn't everyone having fun with the "challenge" of chipping away at the boss with white damage for twenty minutes while saving their measly resources for dodging and adds? No? Me either.

I have lots of fun killing difficult bosses, but if it was possible to group I'd miss that experience - not because I want to avoid the fight, but because I would assume doing it solo was designed for the elite, not for normal players like me, so I wouldn't try.

Valerius

Lvl 42 Templar and I am stuck in my main quest, and can't get any further because it's to hard for me. My guildies can't help me because they are solo quests. What am I to do now?

Personally I see only one option, does anybody see more?

Apricot

Melian wrote: »

I have lots of fun killing difficult bosses, but if it was possible to group I'd miss that experience - not because I want to avoid the fight, but because I would assume doing it solo was designed for the elite, not for normal players like me, so I wouldn't try.

Oh well in THAT case...

I've changed my mind. Let's not give players a choice because you might make the wrong assumption.

Melian

GreySix wrote: »

Fair enough, but if you think that "hardcore" subscribers outnumber casual gamers who like to play this MMO cooperatively, you may wind up being unpleasantly surprised. Its a good bet that the vast majority of casual players never even visit forums like this, though they most likely make up the bulk of players.

If you think that "casual" means people who can't be bothered with learning the basic mechanics of combat in ESO, you may be unpleasantly surprised.
My husband and I consider ourselves casual. He started playing after me and will probably leave if I do, and I have no interest in a game that's been nerfed into the ground for the sake of the lowest common denominator (and what you are asking for is not just an "option", it is a nerf. Those bosses are designed for soloing.)

GreySix wrote: »

Are you married, or do you have a girlfriend? If so, do you play cooperatively on games like this with one? If the answer is no, then this will necessarily make no sense to you:

At no time is a viable course of action telling your wife/girlfriend that she's doing it wrong, after her character gets curb-stomped. And if you're not able to help out, she'll quit.

That is incredibly sexist.

GreySix wrote: »

Perhaps, though only slightly - it is our own form of rebellion against a system forcing us into solo-only questing. Again, we're not in this for the challenge of fifteen-minute battles with some super-boss. We're in it for cooperative and fun play. Period.

I'm sure the devs are really worried about your "rebellion".

GreySix wrote: »

My wife doesn't read forums, and many other gaming couples (on the male side) face similar challenges.

Wow. Just wow.

Melian

Apricot wrote: »

Melian wrote: »

I have lots of fun killing difficult bosses, but if it was possible to group I'd miss that experience - not because I want to avoid the fight, but because I would assume doing it solo was designed for the elite, not for normal players like me, so I wouldn't try.

Oh well in THAT case...

I've changed my mind. Let's not give players a choice because you might make the wrong assumption.

It has to do with what is presented as, and designed as, normal content for average players. I, and I daresay more other gamers than not, wouldn't find much enjoyment in a game where the normal content is designed for the worst players.

If something is challenging, people who don't consider themselves pros are going to wonder if it's intended for the "pros". Given the option to group, they will most likely take that option instead of learning to block, dodge, watch their resources, etc., and those will become the realm of "pros". Future content will then have to be designed similarly...

Sakiri

Well my friend just quit over halls of torment, I cant help him with it and hes not speaking to me right now hes that pissed(hes *never* angry or upset so this is kinda scary) so yeah..

Im probably done too.

Apricot

Melian wrote: »

It has to do with what is presented as, and designed as, normal content for average players. I, and I daresay more other gamers than not, wouldn't find much enjoyment in a game where the normal content is designed for the worst players.

"Worst players?" REALLY?? Since when does wanting to group up make people the "worst players"??? I don't even know how to respond to this.

Melian wrote: »

If something is challenging, people who don't consider themselves pros are going to wonder if it's intended for the "pros".

Scaling the difficulty based on the number of players is hardly new to MMO's. Other games do it regularly without confusion. I have no idea why you would assume the above. Baffling . . .

As far as challenging goes here's the thing: people don't make a toon in an MMO to be weak or mediocre. They want to kick ass, not cheese around. People are expecting their characters to get stronger and they want to actually kill the boss with their abilities. The only challenge for players having difficulties is getting the right build and getting over the idea that their toon can do anything other than pitiful damage. Weak abilities and lack of adequate resources see to that.

There's nothing challenging about dodging and blocking and hitting the boss with all the force of comatose patient for twenty minutes. I've been in top raiding guilds. I've played the hard core game. This ain't it.

I really wish people would lay off the players having problems with encounters. They're not bad and don't deserve to be talked down to or treated poorly. They either a) don't have the right build, or b) don't expect to play a game where the combat is this stupid.

And this is an MMO ffs. Other than it being "confusing" for some people (lol) why would you or anyone else be opposed to grouping?

Melian wrote: »

Given the option to group, they will most likely take that option instead of learning to block, dodge, watch their resources, etc., and those will become the realm of "pros". Future content will then have to be designed similarly...

Yeah no one will learn how to block, dodge and watch their resources without these solo instances because you don't have to do that with every other stinkin' mob in the game.

Melian wrote: »

Future content will then have to be designed similarly...

Similarly to what? Grouping? My god . . . this would be devastating.

Chirru

Well, I read again the original post.... This is NOT about making bosses easier, or harder or scaling them according to group size in any way.

This is simply about introducing a personal choice. Solo the Boss as it is now... or take a buddy along and do it together. Nothing else needs to be changed...just give a choice to players.

Melian

Apricot wrote: »

"Worst players?" REALLY?? Since when does wanting to group up make people the "worst players"??? I don't even know how to respond to this.

This thread is about people who cannot complete the content without a group. Just "want to" group? Easy, go do some group content.

Apricot wrote: »

Scaling the difficulty based on the number of players is hardly new to MMO's. Other games do it regularly without confusion. I have no idea why you would assume the above. Baffling . . .

How is that relevant? ESO does not scale the difficulty for the number of players, and that is why the OP wants to group for it.

Apricot wrote: »

As far as challenging goes here's the thing: people don't make a toon in an MMO to be weak or mediocre. They want to kick ass, not cheese around. People are expecting their characters to get stronger and they want to actually kill the boss with their abilities. The only challenge for players having difficulties is getting the right build and getting over the idea that their toon can do anything other than pitiful damage. Weak abilities and lack of adequate resources see to that.

Most people realize that playing a game of this sort requires that the player also develop some skill. The idea that beating the solo bosses requires a specific build or gear was addressed quite nicely, I thought, in this post:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/82245/how-to-win-at-teso/p1

Apricot wrote: »

There's nothing challenging about dodging and blocking and hitting the boss with all the force of comatose patient for twenty minutes. I've been in top raiding guilds. I've played the hard core game. This ain't it.

You're right, it isn't hardcore. I'm just a mediocre player, a casual, and therefore I find it enjoyably challenging. Apparently there are some in this thread who find it impossible. So, you're some kind of pro gamer and you find it boring - good for you. Rush through it, and get to whatever content you find worthy of your greatness, but leave something interesting for us mortals to do.

Apricot wrote: »

And this is an MMO ffs. Other than it being "confusing" for some people (lol) why would you or anyone else be opposed to grouping?

I did not say it was "confusing". You probably can't understand what I'm saying precisely because you're a hardcore raider, but most players are not in that league, know they are not, and don't even attempt to be. If something is treated as "hard mode", a lot of people will never attempt it, though they might in fact be perfectly capable of it. Fighting those bosses solo is not hard mode, it's normal mode, and when you can't do normal mode, you know you need to learn something.

By the way, this is not an attack on those people. Needing to learn things in a game is not bad; games where you don't need to learn anything are dull. The only people I'd criticize are those who are unwilling to learn.

Apricot wrote: »

Yeah no one will learn how to block, dodge and watch their resources without these solo instances because you don't have to do that with every other stinkin' mob in the game.

Nope, you don't. It helps, but you aren't forced to, at least not while leveling, after which people will be in for a nasty shock... and whine for nerfs on the forums again.

Apricot wrote: »

Similarly to what? Grouping? My god . . . this would be devastating.

Designed similarly = tuned for people who find the solo bosses too hard. That should have been perfectly clear.

Melian

Actually, on second thought, you've convinced me. Options are great! As long as they are given consistently, across the game, I'm all for them. For instance, if I find trials too frustrating, I should be able to bring 35 of my best buddies - without changing the rewards or scaling up the trial, of course. Why would anyone oppose that? It won't affect your ability to do the trial with a group of 12!

Oh, and I don't like PvP, therefore I shouldn't be forced to PvP to see all the content in Cyrodil. Yep. Options!

Chirru

Melian... you want to play the game the way you want to play it... Why do you not allow others the same courtesy...
No, you want others to play the game the way You want to play it. Sorry... no one ask how you want to play it?
You play it how you want it...allow me to play it as I want to play it. You want to challenge yourself.... Fine, it is okay with me...do so by all means. I just want some relaxing fun and group... so what... you don't need to do that if you do not want to.
Right now however everyone is forced into a play-style YOU like most.... and in support of this play-style you come up with the most ridiculous arguments no one advocates at all:

Quote: I should be able to bring 35 of my best buddies - without changing the rewards or scaling up the trial, of course." end of quote. What is this...sarcasm? Man...you really have to practice a bit more in this skill.

I have not a single thing against you playing all of the game solo and being challenged by it. It is okay with me. But please allow me to bring some friends along for the fun. Have the courtesy to allow me to do what you want for yourself... to play the game as you like to play it. I want to play the game as I want to play it.
Right now this is not possible and some of us wish that to be changed. So, why do you speak against this?

GreySix

Wow, I spend a weekend with my wife and this thing exploded!

It seems most are set on their opinions, falling into two camps:

- My-way-only-ever solo-only folks
- folks who want choice

Apparently, the two may never meet.

Apricot

Melian wrote: »

This thread is about people who cannot complete the content without a group. Just "want to" group? Easy, go do some group content.

Try reading what people are saying:

"This is an mmo. I didn't pay to be forced into doing solo missions."

"It is irritating to be grouped with a friend and everything is going great, you have been playing together for an hour and are nearing the completion of a quest line, you and you buddy charge in and poof, you are now in separate instances each having to fight Gutripper solo."

Melian wrote: »

How is that relevant? ESO does not scale the difficulty for the number of players, and that is why the OP wants to group for it.

Actually scaling has been suggested.

Melian wrote: »

Most people realize that playing a game of this sort requires that the player also develop some skill. The idea that beating the solo bosses requires a specific build or gear was addressed quite nicely, I thought, in this post:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/82245/how-to-win-at-teso/p1

Thank you for reposting this. Two things:

1. This would never have been possible before this fight was nerfed as it was very build specific. It was nerfed for a reason. Some mechanics were removed and the orbs now go down with one hit.

2. This is pretty much how all solo bosses are fought. As I said. People who've made a dps character expect to, you know, use their abilities to dps. Not so. This game is designed to use utility and white damage. It's ridiculous. IMHO it's the biggest troll ever perpetuated by an MMO. Here are all these cool abilities and skill lines but you can only put 5 and 1 ultimate on your bar at a time and you can only use those abilities sometimes. Isn't that fun and exciting? Isn't that challenging? No. It's lame.

Melian wrote: »

You're right, it isn't hardcore. I'm just a mediocre player, a casual, and therefore I find it enjoyably challenging. Apparently there are some in this thread who find it impossible. So, you're some kind of pro gamer and you find it boring - good for you. Rush through it, and get to whatever content you find worthy of your greatness, but leave something interesting for us mortals to do.

If you enjoy it there are a lot of other games where you can play a support class and use your utility all day long and help out your raid. In ESO every character is forced into this utility role and you don't play that way to help out your buddies. You play that way because you have to. Players are blind-sided by this.

Melian wrote: »

I did not say it was "confusing". You probably can't understand what I'm saying precisely because you're a hardcore raider, but most players are not in that league, know they are not, and don't even attempt to be. If something is treated as "hard mode", a lot of people will never attempt it, though they might in fact be perfectly capable of it. Fighting those bosses solo is not hard mode, it's normal mode, and when you can't do normal mode, you know you need to learn something.

Don't know and don't care if people would solo or not. It's irrelevant. This is, after all, an MMO. Or at least it was advertised that way.

Melian wrote: »

Nope, you don't. It helps, but you aren't forced to, at least not while leveling, after which people will be in for a nasty shock... and whine for nerfs on the forums again.

Yeah you pretty much are. If you spam your attacks and don't use utility while leveling you die a lot. That being said, people learn better through watching others, playing with others and getting tips from others. Trial and error is a horrible way to learn something. Solo instances for the sake of "learning" are counterproductive.

GreySix

Wife and I re-subscribed to SWTOR late last week, and we'd forgot how much fun it was to conduct missions together. They've really streamlined grouping in that game, perfecting it to a work of art.

Would recommend the developers of ESO take copious notes.