Please Eliminate Forced-Solo Instances - Thanks

beowulfsshield

Dear ZO:

The game is too hard for bads to solo the main questline, and we are too insta-grati to wait a few levels. Please allow us to bring along teams of friends to make up for our lack of skill and patience. Or I'll just unsub and go back to WoW where I can find epic gear as groundspawn.

GreySix

Now that I've taken some time to read reports about ESO (while it was still in beta), some things are starting to click into place. This part specifically seemed to hit home:

The series has first and foremost always been the quintessential single player game. You, the hero, explore a vast countryside, taking on quests and saving the day. I don’t think many players ever stopped and thought “This would be so much better with 50 other versions of me running around with names above their heads.”

In short, Bethesda and Zenimax spend an ungodly amount of money developing a game for an audience that may not even exist.

But this is no longer just idle speculation at this point. The game is in beta, and people have been playing it for a while now.

While obviously any game is going to produce a wide array of opinions, the general feeling I’ve read across countless message boards and forums is that the experience is simply average. While it does feel like a traditional Elder Scrolls game, there’s little benefit to the actual MMO aspect of it. Most of the game is played in single player mode anyway, but because it is an MMO, it looks visually worse than its predecessor, Skyrim, in many ways.

So we have a mix of folks subscribing to this game, including the following:

• folks who really like the single-player TES experience and want it replicated in ESO
• Folks who want the complete MMO experience in a TES setting
• Hybrid of the above two (which is where I and others fit in)

Have no issue with those who want the single-player experience, and that can be facilitated through scaled instances, as has been exhaustively detailed throughout the thread.

Yankee

Up to now I have been saying they should allow grouping for the main quest line.

Looking at the bot problem, I have changed my mind. I am afraid if these bots could group they will script through the main quests and end up in vet content too.

At least right now we can enjoy the vet zones free of the bot infestation.

GreySix

My proposal would be to limit grouping to just two individuals for main quest instances.

Don't think that would benefit bots, who tend to hover around Level 3.

Apricot

beowulfsshield wrote: »

Dear ZO:

The game is too hard for bads to solo the main questline, and we are too insta-grati to wait a few levels. Please allow us to bring along teams of friends to make up for our lack of skill and patience. Or I'll just unsub and go back to WoW where I can find epic gear as groundspawn.

Dear ZO:

We are too illiterate to read what people actually write. Please close these forums so we don't grab our keyboards without knowing wtf is going on and make assess of ourselves.

AngryNord

Dear Apricot:

Please don't feed the trolls.
Thanks in advance.

Cogo

The reason behind solo quests is several. First and foremost, its a quest you cant get boosted in. Those who did them, did them on their own-

Second, solo quests both test your own skill and advance a questline you are on.

I say this, even if it took me to level 12 before I could beat Doshia myself (I am a tank. no damage skills other then my sword.

Also. Blending solo, group, dungeons, instances and soon 12 man raids events only increases this already outstanding game.

I want more of the solo only quests, and to make them different like most other quests in the game. Doshia was very hard against players with little damage.

There is a quest (you have to find it on your own), where in the questline you need to heal your quest NPC, or you fail. As a pure tank...I still havnt come over that part yet.

Or maybe a solo boss fight where a tank would do nicely, a healer with SOME damage could just heal their way to success, where other builds might find a huge problem.

LadyLothi

I can actually understand both sides of the argument here. Many of those who loved Skyrim wanted to share that wonderful gaming experience with on or two friends. Not more.
People who thought like this (I count myself among them) did never truly want a full-blown MMO with all it's negative aspects (bots and goldsellers among them).

So I can understand that someone who wants to share an experience with a friend / partner / family member will be disappointed by the solo instances.

However it is this:

Second, solo quests both test your own skill and advance a questline you are on.

which has me reconciled to the concept of solo instances.

For me, they are a checkpoint at which I can see if I'm fit to progress in the game, if I have mastered the necessary skills, techniques and strategies.

With my sorc, I alsmost despaired when I had to do gutsripper, with my tank I almost scrapped the character entirely because I could not get past Norion.
In both cases, solutions could be found that have been invaluable for further gameplay.

So to all those whose friend is on the brink of giving up altogether because of "undoable" solo instances:
help them out by sitting beside them when then play, try to figure out together what goes wrong, what should be changed, etc.
This way, it's still a shared experience and it still gives both of you a sense of accomplishment when you have found out how to beat the instance.

martinb16_ESO80

So, first off so far I managed to beat all the single bosses in the game. However, I simply cannot understand why a MMO (massively multiplayer online game) forces players into soloing content.

The argument that this is to educate the player does not hold water, as most players that are stuck on such a quest simply come back later when they have outleveled the content. Also, if this were to be true, then bosses should become harder while the questline progresses, and they are not.

Also, in raid content you would expect your healers to know how to avoid damage and heal, and not to know how to kill adds the fasted possible way in order to beat a boss.

In addition, allowing players to assist in the main questline does not take away the ability to still solo them for those who choose to do so. It could be as simple as having an option in the setting that is disabled by default, where you can enter the same instance as another player for the main quest line.

However, if this game is designed for the elite few that can bring the necessary skill to LEVEL the character and complete the MAIN quest line (solo), they will soon be out of subscribers. Without subscribers the game will die.

GreySix

Cogo wrote: »

The reason behind solo quests is several. First and foremost, its a quest you cant get boosted in. Those who did them, did them on their own-

Okay, but see no logical reason grouping should be disallowed, based on what many see as an existing flaw. It comes down to subjective personal preference and sense of accomplishment.

Cogo wrote: »

Second, solo quests both test your own skill and advance a questline you are on.

Okay, but see no logical reason grouping should be disallowed, based on what many see as an existing flaw. It comes down to subjective personal preference and sense of personal accomplishment.

Cogo wrote: »

Also. Blending solo, group, dungeons, instances and soon 12 man raids events only increases this already outstanding game.

How so? Please clarify.

Melian

Chirru wrote: »

What is this...sarcasm? Man...you really have to practice a bit more in this skill.

I have not a single thing against you playing all of the game solo and being challenged by it. It is okay with me. But please allow me to bring some friends along for the fun. Have the courtesy to allow me to do what you want for yourself... to play the game as you like to play it. I want to play the game as I want to play it.
Right now this is not possible and some of us wish that to be changed. So, why do you speak against this?

Yes, it is sarcasm. Am I to take it that you think it would be fine to allow groups of 36 people to zerg trials? Because if so, I rest my case - you and your ilk are completely out of touch (or trolling).

If not, well, you're a hypocrite. Either way, not deserving of serious debate.

Melian

Apricot wrote: »

1. This would never have been possible before this fight was nerfed as it was very build specific. It was nerfed for a reason. Some mechanics were removed and the orbs now go down with one hit.

Moving goalposts much?

Apricot wrote: »

3. This is pretty much how all solo bosses are fought. As I said. People who've made a dps character expect to, you know, use their abilities to dps. Not so. This game is designed to use utility and white damage. It's ridiculous. IMHO it's the biggest troll ever perpetuated by an MMO. Here are all these cool abilities and skill lines but you can only put 5 and 1 ultimate on your bar at a time and you can only use those abilities sometimes. Isn't that fun and exciting? Isn't that challenging? No. It's lame.

I get it, you don't like the combat in this game in general. What I don't get is why you seem to think that's the topic of this thread.

Apricot wrote: »

Don't know and don't care if people would solo or not. It's irrelevant. This is, after all, an MMO. Or at least it was advertised that way.

In other words, then, you don't care if the content is trivialized. Just more evidence your suggestions are terrible for this game.

And please don't say "it could be scaled up". That isn't what I was arguing against, nor would it help those poor folks who just can't be bothered to block (or just think it's too boring). The only thing that would help them would be making those mechanics optional in all content, and I'm very much against that.

Apricot wrote: »

That being said, people learn better through watching others, playing with others and getting tips from others. Trial and error is a horrible way to learn something. Solo instances for the sake of "learning" are counterproductive.

Speak for yourself.

Melian

martinb16_ESO80 wrote: »

However, if this game is designed for the elite few that can bring the necessary skill to LEVEL the character and complete the MAIN quest line (solo), they will soon be out of subscribers. Without subscribers the game will die.

You really think only an "elite few" can do that? That's absurd. This isn't heroic raiding. People who can't level solo won't be very good group members, either. You want your healer to be able to avoid damage? Yes, and that's just what you need to do to beat the solo instances. They aren't dps races. You need to pay attention to your environment and watch your resources, just as one would hope all members of one's dungeon group would do.

Nathair

martinb16_ESO80 wrote: »

The argument that this is to educate the player does not hold water, as most players that are stuck on such a quest simply come back later when they have outleveled the content.

And where exactly is the logic in forcing people to solo bosses in order to teach them how to solo the bosses that you are forcing them to solo? Then, once the main quest is done, they will never have to solo anything again. It is ludicrous. More importantly, it is the antithesis of "play how you want".

Personally, I prefer to solo but I see absolutely no rational excuse for forcing everyone else to play the way I prefer. It is a singularly stupid game design decision.

Apricot

Melian wrote: »

Moving goalposts much?

Pardon?

Melian wrote: »

I get it, you don't like the combat in this game in general. What I don't get is why you seem to think that's the topic of this thread.

You're right, I hate the combat in this game. There are games with dumber combat designs, but not many. The reason it's relevant is because many players won't, or can't get used to it. At least let them group.

Melian wrote: »

In other words, then, you don't care if the content is trivialized. Just more evidence your suggestions are terrible for this game.

Actually I don't really care if the content is "trivialized." Don't know how that could be since the game is straight up stupid as it is, but no, don't care. This game could hardly be more terrible than it is. You have a terrible combat system, horrible grouping options, inventory nightmares, ridiculous costs to reset skill points, linear questing, and the stupidity that is the vet ranks. Doing away with mandatory solo instances will hardly affect the game in a negative way.

Melian wrote: »

And please don't say "it could be scaled up". That isn't what I was arguing against, nor would it help those poor folks who just can't be bothered to block (or just think it's too boring). The only thing that would help them would be making those mechanics optional in all content, and I'm very much against that.

The more I read from you the more I believe you should be playing a solo table top game. THIS IS A MMO. By DEFINITION mandatory solo content should never have been introduced in the game. PERIOD. Make it to where the content scales based on the number of players. Or don't. I don't care either way. But mandatory solo content is utter crap.

Melian wrote: »

Apricot wrote: »

That being said, people learn better through watching others, playing with others and getting tips from others. Trial and error is a horrible way to learn something. Solo instances for the sake of "learning" are counterproductive.

Speak for yourself.

It's researched fact. But don't take my word for it - Google it or something.

Apricot

Melian wrote: »

You really think only an "elite few" can do that? That's absurd. This isn't heroic raiding. People who can't level solo won't be very good group members, either. You want your healer to be able to avoid damage? Yes, and that's just what you need to do to beat the solo instances. They aren't dps races. You need to pay attention to your environment and watch your resources, just as one would hope all members of one's dungeon group would do.

Oh you want your healer to heal? Here's how you heal (as a Templar anyway): Max out your alchemy, especially the passives Medicinal Use and Snakeblood. Enchant your jewelery with glyphs that reduce the CD's of potions. Go out and farm mats for an hour and make an absurd abundance of pots. Now you can pretty much guzzle one pot after another enabling you to actually heal.

If you don't plan on doing this, don't bother healing on your Templar. You'll be mediocre at best. At worst, you will suck.

Just another awesome game design brought to you by Zenimax.

Melian

So let me get this straight - you hate this game, you don't care how it's changed, but you post here again and again arguing that there should be no solo instances? From the way you talk, you won't be playing it anyway, so why can't you just do those of us who enjoy it the courtesy of moving on to a game you do like and stop trying to ruin this one for us?

GreySix

Melian wrote: »

So let me get this straight - you hate this game, you don't care how it's changed, but you post here again and again arguing that there should be no solo instances? From the way you talk, you won't be playing it anyway, so why can't you just do those of us who enjoy it the courtesy of moving on to a game you do like and stop trying to ruin this one for us?

But I and plenty of others have not quit, and we are holding out for being able to stay grouped throughout the game, which would hardly ruin it for those wanting to solo the same instances.

martinb16_ESO80

Melian wrote: »

So let me get this straight - you hate this game, you don't care how it's changed, but you post here again and again arguing that there should be no solo instances? From the way you talk, you won't be playing it anyway, so why can't you just do those of us who enjoy it the courtesy of moving on to a game you do like and stop trying to ruin this one for us?

I think we can only agree to disagree. There is zero impact on your gaming experience if other people are allowed the option to group story line bosses. Also, you also continue to post on this thread without bringing anything new to the discussion, so why do YOU continue to respond?

For some reason you seem to believe that these bosses are necessary to teach the player a lesson. I cannot disagree more, for players that fail repeatedly, mainly because they did not choose the optimal build (or encounter one of the dozen possible bugs), the only lesson they learn is that the game appears to be too frustrating to bother with and quit.

Having players leave because they cannot complete a lvl 30 story line boss is insane, and should be a clear indicator that there is something wrong.

Again, I'd like to mention that I was able to beat any encounter so far, and quite comfortably so on my main . But I can still see the point made here and I completely agree.

starlizard70ub17_ESO

I'm guessing the comment "Having players leave because they cannot complete a lvl 30 story line boss is insane, and should be a clear indicator that there is something wrong." refers to the Lyris doppelganger fight. I'm at level 45 DR, still can't beat it. came close though. I heard the healing balls were nerfed so they'd drop with one hit, this encounter still needs to be nerfed more. Less healing balls, etc, something, because unless you have the exact build to beat this encounter, it becomes almost impossable.

GreySix

starlizard70ub17_ESO wrote: »

I'm guessing the comment "Having players leave because they cannot complete a lvl 30 story line boss is insane, and should be a clear indicator that there is something wrong." refers to the Lyris doppelganger fight. I'm at level 45 DR, still can't beat it. came close though. I heard the healing balls were nerfed so they'd drop with one hit, this encounter still needs to be nerfed more. Less healing balls, etc, something, because unless you have the exact build to beat this encounter, it becomes almost impossable.

My own preference would be no nerfing, but rather enable grouping for two individuals.

starlizard70ub17_ESO

GreySix wrote: »

starlizard70ub17_ESO wrote: »

I'm guessing the comment "Having players leave because they cannot complete a lvl 30 story line boss is insane, and should be a clear indicator that there is something wrong." refers to the Lyris doppelganger fight. I'm at level 45 DR, still can't beat it. came close though. I heard the healing balls were nerfed so they'd drop with one hit, this encounter still needs to be nerfed more. Less healing balls, etc, something, because unless you have the exact build to beat this encounter, it becomes almost impossable.

My own preference would be no nerfing, but rather enable grouping for two individuals.

^This option would be the best.

Sleepwalker

None of the main quest content takes special builds for success. The encounters can be done by anyone that gets (even kind of) used to the game's combat system, as it is a little different than that to which we've all become accustomed over the years.

Here's one of many videos on youtube that perfectly displays how to kill a harvester, which just so happens to be the exact Lyris doppelganger encounter mentioned above.

Doshia defeated by techniques common to every player in the game.

I can totally understand wanting to group just to share things with friends. We can agree that this is an MMO, and for that sole reason, I wouldn't have much of a problem if they allowed such a thing. However, requesting a software change because you don't have the skill to defeat an encounter and flat out refusing to take some time to learn from those that have been successful as to what you may be doing wrong is downright pathetic. ZOS does not need to cater to the latter. That person is fickle and will be leaving with or without this change.

Quite honestly though, even if this were to change, groups allowed for what was once solo, it won't be implemented this year. There are plenty other squeaky wheels out there getting greased... and not very well. I'd say that it's time to explore other options, because your change isn't on the horizon anytime soon anyway. Or don't... whatever.

GreySix

Sleepwalker wrote: »

None of the main quest content takes special builds for success. The encounters can be done by anyone that gets (even kind of) used to the game's combat system, as it is a little different than that to which we've all become accustomed over the years.

Know you're trying to help, but I'm not seeking guidance on how to kill any sort of boss on solo-only status. I'm seeking the ability to group with my wife. Its a matter of principle.

Sleepwalker wrote: »

Quite honestly though, even if this were to change, groups allowed for what was once solo, it won't be implemented this year.

Then I and plenty of others will likely wind up unsubscribing until grouping is properly implemented in this MMO. For now, we're just doing side-quests together, and ignoring the main quest-line.

If my wife's up to soloing an instance, of course I'll support her and solo it along with her, but when she hits content she deems too hard (which means her character getting killed more than once and my not being able to assist), she'll just quit, and then we'll often log on to SWTOR, where we're never forced into solo instances.

Eventually, we'll reach zero-sum on paying $30 per month on ESO, leaving it to those who don't mind being funneled into solo-only instances ... and of course the bots, who absolutely adore this MMO.

Sleepwalker

GreySix wrote: »

...but when she hits content she deems too hard (which means her character getting killed more than once and my not being able to assist), she'll just quit...

Wow... just... wow...

Bye. Good luck with SWTOR.

GreySix

Sleepwalker wrote: »

GreySix wrote: »

...but when she hits content she deems too hard (which means her character getting killed more than once and my not being able to assist), she'll just quit...

Wow... just... wow...

Bye. Good luck with SWTOR.

Know you're being sarcastic, but thanks anyway. Already did the Level 50 thing on two characters each there, but now we can go up to Level 55. We're running a character apiece at around Level 15 right now, really enjoying it.

And I'll wish you good luck when you and the other five percent of "hardcore" players who make up the base of ESO are alone and unfraid (and of course the bots too) here are the only ones holding the game afloat.

Not much of an "I told you so" kind of guy, but ... well, I think you get it.

frwinters_ESO

GreySix wrote: »

Sleepwalker wrote: »

GreySix wrote: »

...but when she hits content she deems too hard (which means her character getting killed more than once and my not being able to assist), she'll just quit...

Wow... just... wow...

Bye. Good luck with SWTOR.

Know you're being sarcastic, but thanks anyway. Already did the Level 50 thing on two characters each there, but now we can go up to Level 55. We're running a character apiece at around Level 15 right now, really enjoying it.

And I'll wish you good luck when you and the other five percent of "hardcore" players who make up the base of ESO are alone and unfraid (and of course the bots too) here are the only ones holding the game afloat.

Not much of an "I told you so" kind of guy, but ... well, I think you get it.

In all honesty it seems like this isn't the game for you and your wife. Its not going to change. The main aspect of the story line was designed to make YOU personally the hero. Not you and your friends. You join the companions, not you and your friends. Imagine how much reprogramming they would have to do to keep the story going? The voice acting to keep the immersion they are trying to maintain just to allow you and your friend to play. There is TONS of group related content. TONS. Like again TONS you can do as a group. I think i said before there is really like 10 main quests for the main story you have to do alone. take 10 minutes a piece and your done. If your having trouble soloing it then I say L2P. Not the game for you.

GreySix

frwinters_ESO wrote: »

In all honesty it seems like this isn't the game for you and your wife. Its not going to change.

And you base this on what - the incorrect assumption that MMOs are never modified?

frwinters_ESO wrote: »

The main aspect of the story line was designed to make YOU personally the hero. Not you and your friends.

... and yet your character is the "only" hero, along with half a million other "only" heroes. Look, I'm all about suspension of disbelief, but when you're questing with a group member all throughout the game, and then suddenly without warning, you're on your own, because ... well ... you're now the "only" hero, and the other "only" hero with whom were just questing is now ... I don't know - using the bathroom?

Yeah, that just doesn't cut it.

frwinters_ESO wrote: »

You join the companions, not you and your friends. Imagine how much reprogramming they would have to do to keep the story going?

Allow one other player, and scale the instance. Are you going to tell us no other MMO does that?

frwinters_ESO wrote: »

The voice acting to keep the immersion they are trying to maintain just to allow you and your friend to play.

When you are both standing there, the term, "you" can be plural. I use it in such a manner all the time.

frwinters_ESO wrote: »

There is TONS of group related content. TONS. Like again TONS you can do as a group.

Groovy.

frwinters_ESO wrote: »

I think i said before there is really like 10 main quests for the main story you have to do alone.

... and they all should allow grouping ... pretty sure I've covered this.

frwinters_ESO wrote: »

Take 10 minutes a piece and your done.

Nope. I want to group them - all of them.

frwinters_ESO wrote: »

If your having trouble soloing it then I say L2P. Not the game for you.

Yeah, it always comes down to this with those of you who oppose grouping, doesn't it? Play it the way its intended, or STFU.

So once again, no reason offered to continue disallowing grouping has passed the logic test.

Anvos

I'd say we need more instancing in the story quests.

Elirienne

No support. Please keep as is. This is an ESO game first, and mmo second, not the other way around. Please do not force us to group, ever.