[Feedback] Vampirism is harmful to the game's PvP.

Baphomet

And this is coming from someone who has been PvP'ing in Elder Scrolls for 5 months, for what it's worth.

I am fine that vampirism and lycanthropy are in game, and I definately do not blame people for wanting to go down these skill lines and enjoy the flavor that comes with them, but I have to express my concern with the direction I've seen the PvP take over the last couple of weeks.

As more and more people are becoming vampires, the battlefields of Tamriel has slowly turned from a dynamic, strategic and intense place to a haze of mist, litterally speaking.

As a dragonknight, I do not have a lot of trouble fighting vampires, but what really hurts me is that all the beautiful, diverse and complex strategies of the battlefield are slowly, but surely, turning into a place of "one trick ponies", all utilizing roughly the same strageties and tactics in game. The vampire abilities are slowly taking this game's PvP towards the lowest common denominator, and I think they already have proven themselves to be very harmful for the PvP environment.

I don't have anything against vampire players and I am not trying to get in an easy jab at them here, but I am geniunely concerned about the direction PvP has taken in this game because of the abilities which come with this skill line.

If the vampire skills were tweaked, I am not sure how the affcted people should be compensated, or if it would be necessary, but objectively speaking, I do hope that the devs realize and appreciate the negative impact they have on PvP as a whole.

I am sure that many will disagree with my views here, but I have seen what this game can be and I am seeing what this game is going towards.

awkwarrd

What specifically are you talking about?

The only issue with the vampires in PVP, is that the DK and Sorc are able to abuse the Ult's by using the Ult reduction cost skills/passives and armors/sets.

All the threads out there that talk about Vampires being "OP" and you only see 2 class's being involved, but vampire in general takes the blame?
I don't understand the logic behind that.

Meanwhile.. this is an awesome area to bring Fighters Guild skills into the situation, and possibly enhance them, because you rarely see people use them in PVP, and that is the #1 thing people forget to mention when they lost to fighting a vampire.
"i didn't have any fighters guild abilities on my bar, but nerf vampires anyway"

Baphomet

Being able to get Bat Swarm to cost only 10 ultimate is definately borked and will no doubt be addressed in a near future.

But I am not really getting at their power level. Yes, they are strong, but the main issue I am seeing with vampires is that the effectiveness (i.e. utility) of their abilities, mist form being the most prominent, are so beneficial that every other build I encounter on the battlefield now are built around these abilities, and that takes the diversity out of the excellent class/skill system ESO has designed and reduces it to a crude experience of vampires vs. vampire hunters. Having every other skirmish be a haze of mist becomes so predictable and boring to me and completely detrimental to what to game is trying to accomplish.

That's why I hope that the devs @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_MattFiror will re-evaluate the mechanics behind some of these abilities.

Jitterbug

I don't admittedly know a lot about playing as a vampire, but it does seem to me that whatever drawback the skill line has is by no means keeping people back (except from me maybe). I mean, if you can get lowered hp regen and more fire dmg taken and just be all /shrug about it something is wrong. Those both sound like they should mean something, but "hey, I got mist, it's all good..."

stylernaku

So, we have shield bash spam everywhere, and vet 10's running about...

but the class which is hard to get due to getting a bite from a player, if they can bite due to 6 day cool down, for 30k in most places, or waiting for a rare possibly bugged spawn..

...is your problem?

Or is this more the Vets and shield bashes are getting combated by the vamps and possibly ww too.

Is that it hmmm?

See for quite a while it was "oh you'll get destroyed in pvp as a vamp blah blah", and when we adapted suddenly we are OP.

Mmhmm see what you did there, nice try.

awkwarrd

Baphomet wrote: »

Being able to get Bat Swarm to cost only 10 ultimate is definately borked and will no doubt be addressed in a near future.

But I am not really getting at their power level. Yes, they are strong, but the main issue I am seeing with vampires is that the effectiveness (i.e. utility) of their abilities, mist form being the most prominent, are so beneficial that every other build I encounter on the battlefield now are built around these abilities, and that takes the diversity out of the excellent class/skill system ESO has designed and reduces it to a crude experience of vampires vs. vampire hunters. Having every other skirmish be a haze of mist becomes so predictable and boring to me and completely detrimental to what to game is trying to accomplish.

That's why I hope that the devs @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_MattFiror will re-evaluate the mechanics behind some of these abilities.

So it's the Ultimate and Mist Form.

I have caught vampires who spam it, simply by timing my stun just before the form dissipates, casting it after or as they are casting it doesn't work, but if you have had that kind of run where you encounter every single type of "Mist Form Build" then i don't understand how you have not learnt how to counter it..
Seems unrealistic that you have not learnt this yet, with what you describe as always fighting against them.
Hell you can spam your stuns when you think they are about to drop Mist Form, to be able to better understand when it's best to shut them down.

The Ultimate on the other hand.. IS ONLY because of DK and Sorc.
The 2 class's have Ultimate reduction skills.. and set items to reduce it.
That is not the vampire fault, so accusing the entire vampire skill tree of being OP in PVP is wrong, you have been misinforming the ZOS staff with your feedback, which is the worst kind of feedback, and i do hope they sift through what you said and find the truth.. and not the exaggerated lies and slander.

• A well timed stun or Silver Bolts, before they cast mist form, can shut them down. (there is a cast delay, so you can't hit them as they cast it)
• As a Dragonknight you should have some fire aswell to shut them down even further.

This feedback thread is silly, when the original post describes nothing, and later through replies we find out that the poster is inept at learning how to counter.

Talking about vampire tweaks, when the problem lies primarily in the 2 class's who use vampire skills, is another point of misinformation in the original post.

Baphomet wrote: »

As a dragonknight, I do not have a lot of trouble fighting vampires, but what really hurts me is that all the beautiful, diverse and complex strategies of the battlefield are slowly, but surely, turning into a place of "one trick ponies", all utilizing roughly the same strageties and tactics in game. The vampire abilities are slowly taking this game's PvP towards the lowest common denominator, and I think they already have proven themselves to be very harmful for the PvP environment.

This paragraph itself is a contradiction to everything you say.

• "I have no problem killing vampires" -i just don't like them
• "One trick ponies" -who can be killed by 1 skill if you ever used it. (silver bolts)
• "Vampires are harmful to the PVP environment" -because i don't know how to counter, and don't wanna change 1 skill on my bar.
• "Entire paragraph is a vaguely general opinion without any credible evidence that isn't pointing fingers at DK or Sorc because i play a DK and Sorc" -Yes pretty much.

Libertine

ah, raging vamp players already here .. good, good, let the hate flow through you...

Custos91

Just keep in mind, that the pvp sets also involve rings and necklackes, so vampires will lose these in late game pvp, as they have to use fire resistance in these slots, and not being able to get 3 setpieces could prove to be a problem^^

awkwarrd

Custos91 wrote: »

Just keep in mind, that the pvp sets also involve rings and necklackes, so vampires will lose these in late game pvp, as they have to use fire resistance in these slots, and not being able to get 3 setpieces could prove to be a problem^^

Fire still does extra damage regardless of the resists.

The DK and Sorc might way their options and just go with the Ultimate reduction set regardless.

Baphomet

@awkwarrd

Nowhere do I say that vampires are overpowered (but I do insiniuate that some of their abilities are borked), nor that I cannot counter them, nor that I cannot kill them etc. I have no problems in that regard.

The entire premise of this feedback is to bring to attention that the mechanics of the vampire abilities are designed in a way that is detrimental to what the game is trying to achieve - diversity.

The vampire abilities are so effective and desireable that there has been a huge influx of players who are building solely around them - and if the trend continiues, there is a real risk that this wonderful and diverse PvP system will turn into something that resembles a vampire vs. vampire hunting setting.

This is the precisely the kind of feedback which is useful for the developers because it is devoid of personal bias and speculations about motives.

I don't know if I can phrase it more clearly but that is the point of this thread. Of course I cannot stop others from reading their subjective motives and speculations into it.

Nox_Aeterna

OP , with time , people will find the best builds , that will happen.

Once it does , TONS of players will seem like one trick ponies , cause they will copy said builds , hell i know i will for sure , just like i did in so many MMO before.

ESO makes many builds viable , but not all builds are the BEST , and lets be honest , PvP player even more than PvE players , go for the best possible build so that they can win the fights.

Baphomet

@Nox_Aeterna‌

Agreed.

With werewolves and vampires being so new to the PvP environment, they still have teething problems. They have not been tweaked and tested to the extend that the other classes and skill lines have yet, which is why it is paramount that people express their experience with them - good and bad.

beravinprb19_ESO

I can't believe there is no delete function. Please ignore this post...

awkwarrd

@Baphomet
You didn't really say anything, but all the vague chatter was aimed at vampires.
You did try to bring up tweaking them.

You said nothing about the Fighters Guild skills..
You said nothing about fire skills and how it effects vampires.

You insinuated everything..
Vampires have 2 abilities and 1 ulti, and not all vampires use them in PVP, because there are better skills to use in some situations.

The premise of your feedback was biased.
You gave no insight in your attempts to counter.
You gave no insight in the outcomes of those attempts

All you basically said was "Vampires.. Vampires everywhere.." then went on to bash mist form.

I won't bother explaining how you completely messed up your feedback was about the vampire ulti.. because you play a DK.. and you wanna keep your precious Ult cost reduction stuff.

If a Vampire/Werewolf PVP trend continues, then why wouldn't you put your "tweak" suggestions toward the Fighters Guild skills.. and the lack of their use in PVP.
Instead of suggesting nerfs when the problem isn't even Vampires.. it was the 2 class's that can abuse Ulti's, but i have a sneaking suspicion its because you play those 2 class's and would rather keep your skills.
Mist Form on the other hand has proven effective against all the newbies, and everyone of them that can't put a silver bolt on their bar, or learn to time their stuns.

Only after your first reply post is when the feedback became worth while to read in a constructive manner, because you started talking with valid information.
The original post is not useful feedback, are we supposed to read your mind behind the meaning of the vague opinions you typed out?

All it really added up to was:
"Nerf vampires and don't look into what class i play in case you notice im trying to shift the class blame on ulti reduction abuse"

Baphomet

@awkwarrd, as I said, I don't think I can help you futher to comprend the point here, nor can I help you understand what was written or influence what you read into it. You're going off a tangent and you talk oranges while I talk apples.

Trying to speculate about personal motives or bias in order to validate your own argumentation doesn't make your oranges taste any sweeter.

This is exactly the stuff developers need to see through.

Reavan

As a vamp i agree mist and the ult are broken but as a dk i am sure you can also admit the banner and talons are also broken to the same degree

Thevenin

@awkwarrd‌
So let me get this right, you're simply having fun right now jumping on the vampires bandwagon with their grossly overpowered skills ? (not only in PvP but also in PvE, drain and bats make VR content about as difficult as lvl 1 prison)
Can't you just say so ?

Baphomet

@Reavan, I agree that the DKs have a talon+standard synergy issue, but the problem (in my book) lies with dark talons and the lack of immunity to it when you dodge-roll out of it. Purge negates the effects of standard (along with dodge-roll if you're not in talons) so that in itself is rather easy to counter. Still, dark talons needs to be addressed.

And sorry for going off topic in my own thread - I'll flag my own post

Bunk

Baphomet wrote: »

Infinite Draining Swarm is so effective and desireable that there has been a huge influx of players who are building solely around them

Fixed.

Also, Zenimax should probably make sure Vampire abilities actually WORK properly before nerfing them. They're broken in the most literal sense.

cjtignub17_ESO

Vampire is crap atm. The ulti inly hits 200 dmg a tick its pretty weak compared to meteor or standard. U shoukd run with pvp healers who heal. 2 healing springs whicj stack will outheal that.

Vamp is terrible atm its bugged as all hell.

Vamp bug 1
Mist form doesnt work supposed to do dmg every .5 seconds but instead more like 1.5 sec.

Vamp bug 2
If u zone ur vampire cost reduction resets to stage 1 even though ur at stage four.

Vamp bug 3
All passives like dmg mitigation and run while sneak bug out and stop working if u die and wont work again until relog

Getting sick of all these crying threads about people who dont know how to play.

Its amazing that for each class there are abilities that people r crying for nerf. Seems pretty balanced to me.

Protip: u can use the same mechanics and abilities against these people! Like standard. Bolt escape. Negate magic. Supernova. Fighter ulti. Talons. Whip. Pulsar and all the other crap that is supposesly OP.

Stop crying and learn to play the game please guys this is getting frustrating reading nerf nerf nerf threads about a diff ability EVERY SINGLE DAY

joshisanonymous

Why is nearly everyone here missing the point of the OP? He's not talking about vampires being overpowered, he even mentions that he has no trouble killing them, he's talking about the benefits vs drawbacks of being a vampire being such that it's extremely common to fight them in PvP. In essence, it's fine if they have really powerful advantages, but in order to make sure that the entire battlefield isn't full of vampires (the actual problem the OP is concerned with), they have to have equally powerful disadvantages. The OP is suggesting that whatever disadvantages they have are too negligible. I don't have an opinion on that in particular, but most of you are missing this point completely and arguing about something completely different.

awkwarrd

Baphomet wrote: »

@awkwarrd, as I said, I don't think I can help you futher to comprend the point here, nor can I help you understand what was written or influence what you read into it. You're going off a tangent and you talk oranges while I talk apples.

Trying to speculate about personal motives or bias in order to validate your own argumentation doesn't make your oranges taste any sweeter.

This is exactly the stuff developers need to see through.

Right.. so being able to kill vampires, and having no problem with them is a big problem for you that you needed to post this feedback, even though your own class is one of the big reasons that vampire ulti is being abused.

Thevenin wrote: »

@awkwarrd‌
So let me get this right, you're simply having fun right now jumping on the vampires bandwagon with their grossly overpowered skills ? (not only in PvP but also in PvE, drain and bats make VR content about as difficult as lvl 1 prison)
Can't you just say so ?

You haven't done many dungeons or PVE content when fire is involved i assume.
You also don't use Fire or Silver Bolts in PVP i assume.

It's really not hard to kill them.
And the only thing im on the bandwagon with, is clarifying the actual details when the ulti of vampires is abused, when it's the DK and Sorc class's Ult reducing abilities that allow them to spam it, just like all their other Ulti's that people were complaining about in PVP before this one.

Chryos

I disagree. You can make yourself an elite team of vampire and werewolf hunters. You can spec out to hunt them. Learn how to fight them. Don't bunch up, use ranged. You must hit them before they are in mistform range. Stunlock, root etc. We have learned to make an elite vampire hunter type team. Use some imagination! Standard fantasy RPG rules apply, they hate fire, but they may have fire resist gear on. DONT go toe to toe alone with vampires, use a ranged team. I myself enjoy the challenge. Of of our lvl 10's took a vampire empress out simply because he is beast in PvP, it's player skill mostly and some luck at times.

7788b14_ESO

A problem is when Devs do adjustments or nurfs, it's across the board, pvp and pve, instead of just one side. For people who don't pvp it's a needless nurf.

Chryos

Another PvP tip: If you are always ganged up on one server, winning with greater forces against smaller numbers, you will never get better. My suggestion is spend time fighting overwhelming odds, thats how you learn tactics and to fight smarter. Zerg rushing with 200 people against a 24 man group will not teach you anything. Fighting in a 24 man team against a bigger force however, will teach you how to move and work with a team. We held a keep with a 24 man team against a numerically superior force only to shut them down, because we are a tight knit group, using headsets and have played together for years. Yes, we die alot but there is a fix for that, it's called pressing E to respawn or rez. You should expect to die often in PvP, it's part of the game and it makes getting that kill much more rewarding, especially when you avenge your buddies death.

cjtignub17_ESO

Yeah don't even get me started on pve vamps any nerf will destroy any vamp viability that may or may not exist in pve.

@Chryos nice. I don't get all the hype about mist form I tested it when I was a vamp and I didn't really think it was that good, you can't swap weapon bars while in it. I feel like once u get out theres a good 1 second lag before u can recast it. The Poison cloud morph is bugged and doesn't even work. You can't get heals in it is outrageously expensive event at stage 4 with light aromor + breton + sorc + seducer cost reduction. Also I'm not sure where its even worthwhile popping mist form except for perhaps when you are running the scroll. I feel there are better things to do when bat swarm was up instead of just turtle in mist form.

To escape personally I would just use bolt escape and not even have mist form on my toolbar its a waste of a slot until they fix the skill.

drwoody44b14_ESO

And yet here we have entire zone chat conversations on how gimp/suck vamps and WW's are in PVP...

thestonyb16_ESO

i agree, theres not enough vampires. everyone please make vampires! my talon awaits you

Zintair

I also have the slight concern that PvP will turn into Team Edward vs Team Van Helsing. I appreciate the OP here Baphomet. I think you are showing real insight into the worsening trend in PvP between how many before and after have gone Vampire (myself included).

If we could just get the tweaks and fixes that need to happen I think everything else will right itself. Unfortunately it feels ZoS is being awfully quiet regarding everything.

Old_Issan

Agree strongly with the OP.
It is simply no fun having a battlefield consisting of mist and bats and everybody else firing silver bolts.

LadyChaos

Vamps seem to escape me more than others, I just use fire to make sure when I catch up they hurt quickly, but I don't see a problem with them as a plague on PvP.

I don't use fighter skills but I have maxed the passives. When I see a vamp hit the flank and start ganking I go right for them because my spec favors vamp kills. I don't have any stuns so if a buddy doesn't get one on them before I kill them, it turns into a bit of cat and mouse, and they do get away quite a bit more than I get away, but I don't see that as a problem in itself as I chose Damage/speed > CC, so it's not my job to stop them, just to kill them if I get close enough. I don't see it as a 1v1 game.