[Feedback] Vampirism is harmful to the game's PvP.

Jarnhand

Issan wrote: »

Agree strongly with the OP.
It is simply no fun having a battlefield consisting of mist and bats and everybody else firing silver bolts.

Agree! Going 'extension' vamp or ww, should be just that; en extension, and should have CLEAR advantages AND disadvantages. It should NOT be so obviously good that almost all are doing it. Then its gamebreaking and will turn into Vamps vs wws in less then a year, that would be ***.

This should not be hard to see or understand.

Skellan

Jarnhand wrote: »

Issan wrote: »

Vamps vs wws in less then a year

Granted i only look into this section once or twice, but i have yet to see WW post in regard to pvp.. or even a WW in pvp

KiroElmarok

DK Vamps are extremely broken.
Dat talon spam. Dat dragon blood spam.

KiroElmarok

@Issan‌
DKs can talon mist form. And AoE dps actually hits nearby mist formed vamps.

Also, silver bolt/silver shards is extremely helpful when it procs

jody.roaneub17_ESO

The only skill that needs tweaking is the DK talon. It is not a stun but u cant break it with a roll. Honestly I beat it by using flash and then swapping to bows and using magnum shot and various ranged attacks depending if the standard got dropped on me as well.

But you should be able to roll out of it.

Back to the topic. Its silly to think that a class or power should be tweaked so players dont want to use it. Players will play how they want you are effectively asking the devs to limit player choice because you dont like fighting the same ebemy over and over.

I dont like fighting dk clothies using shields and talon standard. But if thats how my enemy is trying to beat me its my job to find a way to overcome it. Its not my job to ask the devs to make those skills less desirable.

-Lucian The Raven

KiroElmarok

@jody.roaneub17_ESO‌
But you can roll out of it.

It just doesn't trigger the anti cc buff when you do that.

Check your stamina and try again.

smercgames_ESO

Ok lets list this out!

In order to get bat swarm to be low we need to be in stage 4. Stage 4 destroys our health regen so we basically don't regen anything. In order to get it stupid low we need to be a DK or a Sorc with passives and use a heavy armor set which all non-vamps have access too also so Vamps specifically should not be penalized due to passives/armor that everyone else has access to if they choose to use it.

We take 50% more dmg from fire.

Drain Essence is complete garbage in PvP because A) it doesn't seem to fire half the time CC immunity stops it from working completely which is stupid, the drain should still go off since a simple bash or any CC C) it has a cooldown

Mist form poison morph doesn't work right. The speed boost one does except it's countered by broken talons.

All of our passives are bugged out, including stage 4 (my stage 3 is even bugged). Both in stage 4 (after a loading screen) and stage 3 I am considered to be in stage 1. In order to get the stealth passive to unbug we must load but loading breaks stage 4. I'm also told Undeath doesn't work at all but I've never noticed myself if it does or doesn't but I would agree it doesn't since I've never noticed taking less dmg at low health.

So you are right, Vamps are borked.. completely.. because 99% of their stuff is bugged except the speed morph of mist form (which is bugged only due to the fact that broken talons is bugged and shouldn't effect it as far as i know)

Also keep in mind using any vamp ability basically puts a big target over your head that says if you have silver bolt then shoot it right here!

So please change the title to ignorance is harmful to PvP.

sSolutionSs

PVP sucks balls at the moment. and there is 0 pvp vet content that levels you.

What a big F you to the pvp community is Craglorn. They are adding Yet Another PVE mode for Vet ranks.

WTF We Need a Vet rank PVP mode that will give you vet xp..

This game is somewhat of a joke in regards to PVP. Its like the are not ready to acknowlegde how terrible, unbalanced, unstructured, and lacking rewards PVP really is yet.

jbaslarub17_ESO

Ever notice in nerf posts you always see the OP add in that they personally don't have an issue killing said thing they want nerfed? Why is that?

popatiberiuoneb18_ESO

jbaslarub17_ESO wrote: »

Ever notice in nerf posts you always see the OP add in that they personally don't have an issue killing said thing they want nerfed? Why is that?

Coz everyone posting here is so pro they will bypass bugged mechanics with pure skill...ohh..and coz they care about the average player...ahh...vamps are OP and i have no problems killing them

Anilahation

People will be vampires no matter how much you nerf them, There is a reason the biggest campaign Auriel's bow is a weapon from the vampire dlc-Skyrim

Gaudrath

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO wrote: »

People will be vampires no matter how much you nerf them, There is a reason the biggest campaign Auriel's bow is a weapon from the vampire dlc-Skyrim

Or it could be because it's alphabetically first and thus conveniently on top of the list. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

WraithAzraiel

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

PvP player even more than PvE players , go for the best possible build so that they can win the fights.

Addendum: "..With the least amount of effort."

Gaudrath

By the way, usually when I get killed by a bat swarm or some such nonsense... even if they nerfed it, I doubt I could have survived the other 50 players spamming regular AoE.

If they wanted to diversify builds and tactics, they should have kept AoE in its rightful place - very expensive and rare. They repeated GW2's mistake - AoE reigns supreme. You can nerf this and that, but as long as players can stack/spam AoE skills while running in tight packs, you will get killer zergs running around like swarms of angry bees.

You can't turn every single player into a lawn mower and not expect them to behave like one. Basic design flaw.

Eve Online has it right. AoE is extremely expensive or very difficult to use correctly. So yeah, you get players focus-firing ships via TS, but that's because the game is designed to make that easy. Imagine a Cyrodiil battle with 200 players where no one can spam an AoE skill and instead has to, you know, pick a target and stick to it?
I wager you'd have something that looks a lot more like a chaotic battle and a lot less like aforementioned swarms of bees duking it out.

joshisanonymous

jody.roaneub17_ESO wrote: »

Back to the topic. Its silly to think that a class or power should be tweaked so players dont want to use it. Players will play how they want you are effectively asking the devs to limit player choice because you dont like fighting the same ebemy over and over.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the OP, but I don't think he's asking for a nerf per se, he's asking for there to be a clear enough disadvantage that being a vampire works really well for the playstyle of some people, but not for literally everyone. He's saying that there are simply too many vampires because there's no good reason not to be a vampire. Asking to change this situation, assuming it's the case, is exactly in line with what Zenimax has explicitly stated for their vision of vampires/werewolves. They intended the disadvantages to be such that you only occasionally come across vampires in PvP (although, admittedly, I can't find the source where they said).

Personally, I think the vampire thing may just dissipate over time. Right now, everyone is basically new to the game, so trying things, like being a vampire, is natural. The novelty of it (because you don't get this option in other MMOs) may wear off in a couple months.

Anilahation

If it was alphabetical order then why is Wabbajack the third most played

Gaudrath wrote: »

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO wrote: »

People will be vampires no matter how much you nerf them, There is a reason the biggest campaign Auriel's bow is a weapon from the vampire dlc-Skyrim

Or it could be because it's alphabetically first and thus conveniently on top of the list. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Gaudrath wrote: »

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO wrote: »

People will be vampires no matter how much you nerf them, There is a reason the biggest campaign Auriel's bow is a weapon from the vampire dlc-Skyrim

Or it could be because it's alphabetically first and thus conveniently on top of the list. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Gaudrath wrote: »

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO wrote: »

People will be vampires no matter how much you nerf them, There is a reason the biggest campaign Auriel's bow is a weapon from the vampire dlc-Skyrim

Or it could be because it's alphabetically first and thus conveniently on top of the list. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Stx

Mist form is probably too strong as a mobility skill, but if you nerf that, then you also have to nerf Bolt Escape and morphed Lightning form, because those are just as bad.

And as a DK, you should know that Green dragon blood and dark talons are some of the strongest skills in the game, they need nerfs just as bad as mist form and bat swarm.

Neferath

Well isn't this getting old?

No matter what is beeing said we vampires will allways state that our class isn't OP but utterly broken since not a single passive is working like it is intended to. We will allways state that we aren't OP since the main reason for players aren't capable of killing a vampire is that they simply refuse to use the right skills or don't know about them.

On the other hand all the none-vampire pvp players won't stop shouting to nerf us because we have 1 (one!) single broken spell - mist form - that actually really gives us an unintended and unfair advantage. Also they wont stop to rant because of bat swarm since the one or other vampire is able to spam it constantly without taking into consideration that the ability to spam it, isn't vampire but sorcerer related.

Believe me, the mist form will get fixed by zenimax long before they even consider about touching all the broken vampire or werwolve passives that are a huge drawback for both of us. So this problem is going to be solved soon without the need for further rant.
As for the batswarm well ... deal with it, honestly just like there are a dozen of other really strong and nasty ultimates out there that can be spammed by a sorc, the bat swarm can be spammed. Just stay out of range ...

However this whole discussion about vampires in pvp has one single and legit point.

Actually there are too many of them and this kind of breaks the pvp experience and immersion of this game. But this, isn't a question of beeing OP or getting nerfed in the way you all are crying for.

So lets get into that.

- First reason for all those vamps in pvp:
People refuse to train their warriors skill tree since they never needed it before in order to kill another player and therefore refuse to adapt now for a single other class.
The typical quote there would be:

If i need to rebuild my character or my skill bar in order to kill a single class, this class is broken.

But well the truth is, that this game is about exactly that. Zenimax was even kind enough to put a hint regarding that into their loading screens. Maybe you remember something like "Certain creatures out there might be immune to certain skills and other large groups might be less affected by them.

And aslong there aren't any players willing to build a vampire hunter character - just like people are willing to build a vampire or werewolve character, well guess what, vamp and doggy populations will grow at pvp.

Actually i think that this, tells you all.

- Second reason: bugged Mist Form

As stated before yes, this needs to be fixed, it will be fixed and once it is, you will for sure see less vampires too.

-Third reason: the drawback for beeing out of blood isn't high enough

Actually i think exactly this is the keypoint here and the only real problem with vampires. We are able to totally ignore the drawbacks of vampirism stage 4 since we are able (at least at higher levels) to counter / negate the reduced health regeneration, thus leaving us with the benefit only, a 60% cost reduction for vampire abilties. I, while beeing a vampire myself, think is is a great problem that should be looked at.
A possible solution for this issue could be a 5th stage of vampirism that really forces vampires to feed if we dont want to end up as 1 hit kills for literally alsmost every npc or player out there. This woulnt only make players think twice about how desirable it is to be a vampire, thus lowering the vamp population, but also make the vampirism stages , blood and feeding much more meaningful. Just like it should be while beeing a vampire.

I did put my thoughts regarding that to a poll here wich contains an example of how this 5th stage of vampirism could look like. And i believe that "IF" vampires need a nerf, this is the only one.

In case the one or other should be interested, the poll is found right here:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/87859/could-a-5th-stage-of-vampirism-solve-the-vampire-problem#latest

Anilahation

As said before people are vampires because they want to be, Auriel's bow is the most played campaign for a reason.

Vampires got their own DLC in skyrim, while werewolves were an afterthought within it.

joshisanonymous

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO wrote: »

If it was alphabetical order then why is Wabbajack the third most played

Because it has the funniest name, obviously.

Gaudrath

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO wrote: »

If it was alphabetical order then why is Wabbajack the third most played

Funny, whenever I look at the list, Bloodthorn (or whatever the name is) is second... oh look, it's second on the list too!

But then again, I'm on the EU server, if you're on the US server it might be different. Yanks have a thing for vampires.

Hodorius

OP is right!
I dislike vamps for two reasons:

1. There are so much of them that i was "forced" to skill Silver Bolts.
I am a Bowman and now I have to use a Handcrossbow. Thank you Team Edward.

2. Due to the lag we get here in the EU you cannot shoot at vamps spamming Mist ( <= that´s the german word for "droppings" ) Form.
I am chasing that guy and hitting that Silver Bolts key like an idiot while aiming exactly at Edward hoping to get him... but no!
He simply recasts it and thanks to our incredible ping of 200-1000ms I cant shoot at him.

If there were only a few Edwards I wouldnt bother that much but there is not one fight without Team Edward having a big presence.

Gaudrath

And to clear things up. Some people like the vampire theme and that's the reason they want to play as vamps.

But right now, there is a lot of people who want to be, or are vampires, for one reason only. Combined with certain class synergies, this is the road to take if you want to feel like a god among mortals.

Today I saw the effects first-hand, twice. 20-30 players, all shooting at a single character, vampire DK of course, and not killing him. Now I don't even mind emperor vamps being on the raid boss level - but this was just another grunt. Tying up 30 people, while the rest of his group is smashing down the gates.

So if this is not fixed, the inevitable result is that we are going to see more and more of this sort of thing. The OP is wrong in one aspect of it though - it's not going to be Team Bloodsuckers vs Team Hammer&Stake; it's going to be Vampire Wars. If one player can effectively hold up 20 players, the logical conclusion is that 20 such players will wipe the floor with anything that's not on their level.

Thus Cyrodiil will be playable only for vampire DK and sorcerers. Anyone else... forget veteran ranks and such, anyone else will be completely and utterly useless.

But I'm not worried. The imbalance is on a comical level now, it will be nerfed and hard. One of the rare cases where a nerf is actually needed to save the game. I actually feel that more players could be using this legit exploit, but aren't because it would ruin the game for them as well. Being invulnerable gets old fast.

AshTal

My thought is the mist form and bat swarm are the big issue they make them over powered that is why everyone is becoming vampires.
Personally I think they need to balance the classes and racials and adding vampires does not help at all

monkeymystic

They need to nerf bat swarm AoE. right now they are nerfing all aoe, and its stupid. Bat swarm and pulsar spam is the problem, not aoe in general!

grabbintrionb14_ESO

Reavan wrote: »

As a vamp i agree mist and the ult are broken but as a dk i am sure you can also admit the banner and talons are also broken to the same degree

As a VR4 DK Vamp, I agree with this. Mist form, talons, and banner never leave my bar. On the other hand, without them I would be useless except for pulling people off of walls and some group buffs

The best counter to mist form spam I've found is actually talon spam because the CC immunity it gives doesn't apply to roots.

savak

Gaudrath wrote: »

And to clear things up. Some people like the vampire theme and that's the reason they want to play as vamps.

But right now, there is a lot of people who want to be, or are vampires, for one reason only. Combined with certain class synergies, this is the road to take if you want to feel like a god among mortals.

Today I saw the effects first-hand, twice. 20-30 players, all shooting at a single character, vampire DK of course, and not killing him. Now I don't even mind emperor vamps being on the raid boss level - but this was just another grunt. Tying up 30 people, while the rest of his group is smashing down the gates.

So if this is not fixed, the inevitable result is that we are going to see more and more of this sort of thing. The OP is wrong in one aspect of it though - it's not going to be Team Bloodsuckers vs Team Hammer&Stake; it's going to be Vampire Wars. If one player can effectively hold up 20 players, the logical conclusion is that 20 such players will wipe the floor with anything that's not on their level.

Thus Cyrodiil will be playable only for vampire DK and sorcerers. Anyone else... forget veteran ranks and such, anyone else will be completely and utterly useless.

But I'm not worried. The imbalance is on a comical level now, it will be nerfed and hard. One of the rare cases where a nerf is actually needed to save the game. I actually feel that more players could be using this legit exploit, but aren't because it would ruin the game for them as well. Being invulnerable gets old fast.

This. Well said.

brandon

Neferath wrote: »

Well isn't this getting old?

No matter what is beeing said we vampires will allways state that our class isn't OP but utterly broken since not a single passive is working like it is intended to. We will allways state that we aren't OP since the main reason for players aren't capable of killing a vampire is that they simply refuse to use the right skills or don't know about them.

On the other hand all the none-vampire pvp players won't stop shouting to nerf us because we have 1 (one!) single broken spell - mist form - that actually really gives us an unintended and unfair advantage. Also they wont stop to rant because of bat swarm since the one or other vampire is able to spam it constantly without taking into consideration that the ability to spam it, isn't vampire but sorcerer related.

Believe me, the mist form will get fixed by zenimax long before they even consider about touching all the broken vampire or werwolve passives that are a huge drawback for both of us. So this problem is going to be solved soon without the need for further rant.
As for the batswarm well ... deal with it, honestly just like there are a dozen of other really strong and nasty ultimates out there that can be spammed by a sorc, the bat swarm can be spammed. Just stay out of range ...

However this whole discussion about vampires in pvp has one single and legit point.

Actually there are too many of them and this kind of breaks the pvp experience and immersion of this game. But this, isn't a question of beeing OP or getting nerfed in the way you all are crying for.

So lets get into that.

- First reason for all those vamps in pvp:
People refuse to train their warriors skill tree since they never needed it before in order to kill another player and therefore refuse to adapt now for a single other class.
The typical quote there would be:

If i need to rebuild my character or my skill bar in order to kill a single class, this class is broken.

But well the truth is, that this game is about exactly that. Zenimax was even kind enough to put a hint regarding that into their loading screens. Maybe you remember something like "Certain creatures out there might be immune to certain skills and other large groups might be less affected by them.

And aslong there aren't any players willing to build a vampire hunter character - just like people are willing to build a vampire or werewolve character, well guess what, vamp and doggy populations will grow at pvp.

Actually i think that this, tells you all.

- Second reason: bugged Mist Form

As stated before yes, this needs to be fixed, it will be fixed and once it is, you will for sure see less vampires too.

-Third reason: the drawback for beeing out of blood isn't high enough

Actually i think exactly this is the keypoint here and the only real problem with vampires. We are able to totally ignore the drawbacks of vampirism stage 4 since we are able (at least at higher levels) to counter / negate the reduced health regeneration, thus leaving us with the benefit only, a 60% cost reduction for vampire abilties. I, while beeing a vampire myself, think is is a great problem that should be looked at.
A possible solution for this issue could be a 5th stage of vampirism that really forces vampires to feed if we dont want to end up as 1 hit kills for literally alsmost every npc or player out there. This woulnt only make players think twice about how desirable it is to be a vampire, thus lowering the vamp population, but also make the vampirism stages , blood and feeding much more meaningful. Just like it should be while beeing a vampire.

I did put my thoughts regarding that to a poll here wich contains an example of how this 5th stage of vampirism could look like. And i believe that "IF" vampires need a nerf, this is the only one.

In case the one or other should be interested, the poll is found right here:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/87859/could-a-5th-stage-of-vampirism-solve-the-vampire-problem#latest

I think your 5th stage vampire idea is better then flat out nerfing them

lao

Baphomet wrote: »

And this is coming from someone who has been PvP'ing in Elder Scrolls for 5 months, for what it's worth.

I am fine that vampirism and lycanthropy are in game, and I definately do not blame people for wanting to go down these skill lines and enjoy the flavor that comes with them, but I have to express my concern with the direction I've seen the PvP take over the last couple of weeks.

As more and more people are becoming vampires, the battlefields of Tamriel has slowly turned from a dynamic, strategic and intense place to a haze of mist, litterally speaking.

As a dragonknight, I do not have a lot of trouble fighting vampires, but what really hurts me is that all the beautiful, diverse and complex strategies of the battlefield are slowly, but surely, turning into a place of "one trick ponies", all utilizing roughly the same strageties and tactics in game. The vampire abilities are slowly taking this game's PvP towards the lowest common denominator, and I think they already have proven themselves to be very harmful for the PvP environment.

I don't have anything against vampire players and I am not trying to get in an easy jab at them here, but I am geniunely concerned about the direction PvP has taken in this game because of the abilities which come with this skill line.

If the vampire skills were tweaked, I am not sure how the affcted people should be compensated, or if it would be necessary, but objectively speaking, I do hope that the devs realize and appreciate the negative impact they have on PvP as a whole.

I am sure that many will disagree with my views here, but I have seen what this game can be and I am seeing what this game is going towards.

while i agree with you that vamp skills need to be tweaked im not surprised at all that it turned out like this and what u describe has nothing to do with the vamp skillline in particular.

its the obvious thing to happen in an mmo. during beta ppl had no idea what skills were good etc. the longer the game runs the more equal builds are gonna be. thats just natural. ppl figure out the best builds and sooner or later everyone will use them. thats how pvp works. realistically u cant create diversity cos u cant balance everything 100%. the logical consequence is that fotm builds emerge. everyone who is serious about pvp will use those builds. atm its the vamp thing. when that gets nerfed some new fotm will emerge until that one gets nerfed and so on.

no1 who is serious about pvp will run anything but the best build possible. some roleplayers or noobs who have no clue about the game will most likely run some pointless builds and get stomped until they either learn about the fotm builds and use them themself or quit out of frustration. whatever happens first.

that is the problem that comes with a system like eso uses. eventually every sorcerer will be the same, every DK will be the same and so on.

unfortunately build diversion in mmos is an illusion only the inexperienced players still believe in. it never happened and will never happen. the only diversity u can possibly create is in group setups but since eso doesnt even have a reasonable cap on group size thats extremely unlikely. if it was something like 4 ppl or 6 or 8 ppl max that could happen but with those large scale bs groups i wouldnt even speak of a setup in the first place.

i knew this would happen since like a year ago when i first heard about the system they would use and i expect it to become more one-dimensional the longer the game runs. its just the natural way of things.

monkeymystic

Mist form, bat form and vampires in general needs a tuning.