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Rapid gear decay
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babylon✭✭✭✭✭
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That would have to be a bug. Keep reporting it. I have never seen gear decay from gaining exploration xp.starkerealm wrote: »
It's mobs that can drop, mobs that are within your level range. As for whether or not those mobs actually do drop, that's down to the RNG.starkerealm wrote: »
It cannot be drops. I just got degradation on non-dropping enemies that were at level and awarding combat XP.
It's drops and not xp because L50 mobs in the normal areas drop items but don't give xp to VR ranked players, but still cause gear to decay.
This is why it's a PVE Tax - it's a tax on ability to earn (through drops).
Yeah, I agree that it's mobs within your level range, (the ones that can drop items, give XP (except for once you've hit Vet), and build ultimate). Maybe I misread what you posted earlier, but it sounded like you were saying the dropped items themselves were incurring the deterioration, which didn't, and doesn't, make sense.
No it's as above, mobs within level range that can drop items = gear decay.
This theory has a giant hole in it. It fails to explain why durability damage occurs when gaining exploration XP. It is likely incorrect.
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Lanae✭✭The bill is just ridiculous. I am trying to help guildies level and in the end I am paying through the nose for delivering assistance. The stuff I pick up is not nearly enough to cover the average bill every hour so my money has been slowly dwindling.
I am VR10 so I get nothing gearwise or such out of helping my guildies. Why would they then still completely annihilate my armor? It is just stupid. You would think having the crafs maxed out (ranks and points) would help with repairs but it does not.
Veteran Rank content is heavy duty so the idea that you get hit, lose armor and thus get hit even more (snowball scale) is just stupid. If you are unlucky or are trying something tricky you could quickly end up just being naked and one shot by mobs. And if it is a quest you cant get out of unless you restart it then you are just screwed.
I have no more quests left and really farming stuff is NOT an option. Farming is NOT fun and I feel that computer games must be fun to play.
Hopefully it will be fixed soon.0 -
Darzil✭✭✭
I suspect the issue was mainly the dark anchor and probably some caves with multiple people fighting the monsters. I'm seeing income roughly keep pace with repair costs (though a 50-200% tax depending on monster type for non-quest, non-chest income is crazy to me) as long as you are solo. When multiple people hit monsters, income per monster is trashed, but repair cost per monster isn't affected. Hopefully if they address repairs when grouped things will improve, though I'd love them to revisit repair costs generally.So I did a few quests, did 1 dark anchor, killed whatever mobs were in my way as I explored, killed a couple of quest mini bosses in caves. Did not die at all; nearly all the mobs I killed were at range and roughly the same level, and most were dead before they got within melee range. I had a quite enjoyable hour or so.....0 -
Kyosji✭✭✭I'm now level 49. My gear, on average, lasts 45 minutes before my armor hits 0%. I tend to go ahead and keep fighting at 0%, as I am a sorc that doesn't neccisarily need it, but when I want to solo a boss, or complete a major quest line where I know I will have to solo bosses, I have to repair. This repair bill is usually around 2k. Thankfully I'm not a class that needs armor like a NB, Templar, or DK. That would be 2k in repairs every 45 minutes, and I just don't see how they can afford it.1 -
Amaylia✭✭
That would have to be a bug. Keep reporting it. I have never seen gear decay from gaining exploration xp.starkerealm wrote: »
It's mobs that can drop, mobs that are within your level range. As for whether or not those mobs actually do drop, that's down to the RNG.starkerealm wrote: »
It cannot be drops. I just got degradation on non-dropping enemies that were at level and awarding combat XP.
It's drops and not xp because L50 mobs in the normal areas drop items but don't give xp to VR ranked players, but still cause gear to decay.
This is why it's a PVE Tax - it's a tax on ability to earn (through drops).
Yeah, I agree that it's mobs within your level range, (the ones that can drop items, give XP (except for once you've hit Vet), and build ultimate). Maybe I misread what you posted earlier, but it sounded like you were saying the dropped items themselves were incurring the deterioration, which didn't, and doesn't, make sense.
No it's as above, mobs within level range that can drop items = gear decay.
This theory has a giant hole in it. It fails to explain why durability damage occurs when gaining exploration XP. It is likely incorrect.
Interesting; and how then would you explain not getting decay when killing mobs which drop leather scraps, but are not within level range?0 -
Darzil✭✭✭
Crafting material drop from lower level mobs is an exception to the normal rules.Interesting; and how then would you explain not getting decay when killing mobs which drop leather scraps, but are not within level range?
Basically if a monster is X (is it 6?) levels below you, you get no xp or decay from killing it, and it won't drop money or loot other than crafting materials if appropriate.
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babylon✭✭✭✭✭
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That would have to be a bug. Keep reporting it. I have never seen gear decay from gaining exploration xp.starkerealm wrote: »
It's mobs that can drop, mobs that are within your level range. As for whether or not those mobs actually do drop, that's down to the RNG.starkerealm wrote: »
It cannot be drops. I just got degradation on non-dropping enemies that were at level and awarding combat XP.
It's drops and not xp because L50 mobs in the normal areas drop items but don't give xp to VR ranked players, but still cause gear to decay.
This is why it's a PVE Tax - it's a tax on ability to earn (through drops).
Yeah, I agree that it's mobs within your level range, (the ones that can drop items, give XP (except for once you've hit Vet), and build ultimate). Maybe I misread what you posted earlier, but it sounded like you were saying the dropped items themselves were incurring the deterioration, which didn't, and doesn't, make sense.
No it's as above, mobs within level range that can drop items = gear decay.
This theory has a giant hole in it. It fails to explain why durability damage occurs when gaining exploration XP. It is likely incorrect.
Interesting; and how then would you explain not getting decay when killing mobs which drop leather scraps, but are not within level range?
Mats aren't drops as far as the game is considered. Mats like leather are dropped by mobs outside level range.
It's only mobs within level range that can drop items (items being gear and so on) that cause gear decay.0 -
Darzil✭✭✭[quote="Amaylia;795411Do you have any evidence to support that claim?
[/quote]
Which claim? Not getting decay from lower levels is pretty easy to prove. I spent a couple of hours killing monsters in a low level dungeon trying to complete the quests, ended with no equipment damage (or drops).0 -
b101uk✭✭✭The other night I spent ~2.5h doing a mixed bag of stuff ending up with 1660g in repairs, which is my highest ever I think, yet from looted gold, quest gold and gold from selling useless items (foul hide etc who’s only purpose is to be sold) I made ~3500g before ALL deductions and also had 30 items of weapons and armour for deconstruction who’s gold value was negated, however the lowest value item was 35g while a bulk of them were 67g, which would, had they have been sold be worth another >1050g minimum using the lowest value, likewise even after deducting empty soulgem cost for ones used through deaths still left me with pure profit of ~1200g after ALL deduction and excluding attributable value of craft materials obtained from deconstruction for that ~2.5h.
The above was at VR3.
So far my experience has been consistent throughout the game that day on day you cannot help making gold even up to the point of you running around a VR4 zone as a VR3 with a mix of VR2 & VR3 cloths on, It is true than on occasion you may break-even or even have a loss on 1 or 2 outings, but day on day gold goes up if you play a mixed-bag type of play mixing questing and other thing together while ALSO supporting e.g. blacksmithing, woodworking and clothing crafts with items for deconstruction and research.
Now the above coupled with the thousands of hours I have played similar ZeniMax games which have quite a lot of broadly similar mechanics vis-à-vis gold making rate, I just don’t see a problem, even when looking for one – given what other MMO’s do IS irrelevant.
Edited by b101uk on 7 May 2014 15:590 -
Amaylia✭✭
The claim so far seems to be that "item drops = gear decay", except with mobs that drop mats who are outside of your level range.Mats aren't drops as far as the game is considered.Edited by Amaylia on 7 May 2014 16:110 -
Darzil✭✭✭
I think it's more that (with some exceptions) the criteria for gear decay and that for item drops is the same.The claim so far seems to be that "item drops = gear decay", except with mobs that drop mats who are outside of your level range.
Gear decay (when it happens) causes 1.5% damage to a random gear piece each time you kill anything. (2% then 1%, then 2% etc) Repair costs seem to be around 2.25g per 1% repair, though a little less when very lightly damaged (maybe a lot higher at high damage, but 2.25g per 1% is true around 63% condition).1 -
MindprobeSoul ShrivenI apologize if this has already been posted. I've just done a bit of testing (solo).- Mobs 5 levels lower than you do not seem to yield experience or items - and do not cause decay of gear.
- The tests were done on a single mob at a time.
- A seemingly random piece of armor takes the decay penalty per mob that you kill.
- The decay per kill seems to be 2,25% to the random piece of armor.
The following shows each endurance hit in percentage that my waist armor took (what the addon showed) to the left. The rest are my calculations, which shows that either the addon or the game api that the addon calls is only returning whole numbers (by rounding them up):
100
98 (100 - 2,25) = 97,75
96 (97,75 - 2,25) = 95,50
94 (95,50 - 2,25) = 93,25
91 (93,25 - 2,25) = 91,00
89 (91,00 - 2,25) = 88,75
87 (88,75 - 2,25) = 86,50
85 (86,50 - 2,25) = 84,25
82 (84,25 - 2,25) = 82,00
With 7 total pieces of armor, each given 100% fully repaired:
700% armor / 2,25 decay per kill = 311 kills, before all of your armor is at 0 endurance.1 -
Amaylia✭✭.
I think it's more that (with some exceptions) the criteria for gear decay and that for item drops is the same.The claim so far seems to be that "item drops = gear decay", except with mobs that drop mats who are outside of your level range.
Gear decay (when it happens) causes 1.5% damage to a random gear piece each time you kill anything. (2% then 1%, then 2% etc) Repair costs seem to be around 2.25g per 1% repair, though a little less when very lightly damaged (maybe a lot higher at high damage, but 2.25g per 1% is true around 63% condition).
Yes, I agree with that, and that is consistent with what I have seen in game myself. It doesn't appear related to item drops, is what I was getting at.
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Darzil✭✭✭
At what level was this?- A seemingly random piece of armor takes the decay penalty per mob that you kill.
- The decay per kill seems to be 2,25% to the random piece of armor.
For blue/green 29-32 armour fighting level 34 monsters at level 34 I was seeing a loss of 2%, then 1%, then 2%, then 1% etc to a random piece of armour per mob you kill.
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MindprobeSoul Shriven
At what level was this?- A seemingly random piece of armor takes the decay penalty per mob that you kill.
- The decay per kill seems to be 2,25% to the random piece of armor.
For blue/green 29-32 armour fighting level 34 monsters at level 34 I was seeing a loss of 2%, then 1%, then 2%, then 1% etc to a random piece of armour per mob you kill.
I was level 35/36, killing level 33 monsters. The decay on the other pieces of armor seemed to be identical to the waist (they either dropped by 2% or 3%, which was in reality 2,25 rounded up to the nearest whole number).
If yours dropped by 1,5% (shown as half 1% and half 2% drops on the individual piece), there must be other factors in play as well. The character level versus the monster level didnt seem to make a difference during my test, as I leveled from 35 to 36 in the middle of it. It could perhaps be fixed values for lower levels, identical levels, higher levels ?
Will try some of it out
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starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
That would have to be a bug. Keep reporting it. I have never seen gear decay from gaining exploration xp.starkerealm wrote: »
It's mobs that can drop, mobs that are within your level range. As for whether or not those mobs actually do drop, that's down to the RNG.starkerealm wrote: »
It cannot be drops. I just got degradation on non-dropping enemies that were at level and awarding combat XP.
It's drops and not xp because L50 mobs in the normal areas drop items but don't give xp to VR ranked players, but still cause gear to decay.
This is why it's a PVE Tax - it's a tax on ability to earn (through drops).
Yeah, I agree that it's mobs within your level range, (the ones that can drop items, give XP (except for once you've hit Vet), and build ultimate). Maybe I misread what you posted earlier, but it sounded like you were saying the dropped items themselves were incurring the deterioration, which didn't, and doesn't, make sense.
No it's as above, mobs within level range that can drop items = gear decay.
This theory has a giant hole in it. It fails to explain why durability damage occurs when gaining exploration XP. It is likely incorrect.
Interesting; and how then would you explain not getting decay when killing mobs which drop leather scraps, but are not within level range?
Babylon and I have been talking past each other for days...
When he says "drops", he's not actually talking about items you loot off the enemies, he's talking about... let's call them "active mobs."
Enemies who are close to your level are active, they generate combat experience, roll on a loot table when they die, can build your ultimates, and can cause your gear to deteriorate.
So, when Babylon is talking about it being enemies that drop items, what he's really talking about is active mobs.
Once you get more than five levels over a mob, they stop being active. In a few circumstances they can still drop leather crafting materials, but that's pretty much it (that I've seen). They don't generate ultimate, give XP, or deteriorate your gear.
Now, there's a weird exception, at VR1, non-Vet enemies won't provide any XP, this is probably just a hard cutoff in the system, and not an indication that they're inactive, but it's why Babylon doesn't want to say it's XP related. Even though, it probably is.
If I had to guess, and this is only a guess, there's either some kind of specific XP lockout when you transition from 49 to 50, or there's a specific change to the way XP is awarded after you hit 50. (I don't know, I haven't gotten past 32, yet, because of this bug. But, that's a guess.)
If it's the latter, then it doesn't mean that you aren't still getting combat XP from kills, just that you can't see or interact with that experience, and it's effectivly meaningless. It might also explain why moving from level 50 to veteran 1 content results in a net reduction in repair costs. But, again, I am guessing here.1 -
MindprobeSoul Shriven
At what level was this?- A seemingly random piece of armor takes the decay penalty per mob that you kill.
- The decay per kill seems to be 2,25% to the random piece of armor.
For blue/green 29-32 armour fighting level 34 monsters at level 34 I was seeing a loss of 2%, then 1%, then 2%, then 1% etc to a random piece of armour per mob you kill.
I was level 35/36, killing level 33 monsters. The decay on the other pieces of armor seemed to be identical to the waist (they either dropped by 2% or 3%, which was in reality 2,25 rounded up to the nearest whole number).
If yours dropped by 1,5% (shown as half 1% and half 2% drops on the individual piece), there must be other factors in play as well. The character level versus the monster level didnt seem to make a difference during my test, as I leveled from 35 to 36 in the middle of it. It could perhaps be fixed values for lower levels, identical levels, higher levels ?
Will try some of it out
I just did a brief and less complete test now. My character is level 36 and the monsters were level 38. This time, it swapped between 1% to 2% more often than the prior test. I guess the current theory is then, that killing monsters 1-5 levels below your own will result in a decay of 2,25% per kill, while killing monsters of your own level or above will result in a decay of 1,50% per kill.0 -
Amaylia✭✭starkerealm wrote: »
That would have to be a bug. Keep reporting it. I have never seen gear decay from gaining exploration xp.starkerealm wrote: »
It's mobs that can drop, mobs that are within your level range. As for whether or not those mobs actually do drop, that's down to the RNG.starkerealm wrote: »
It cannot be drops. I just got degradation on non-dropping enemies that were at level and awarding combat XP.
It's drops and not xp because L50 mobs in the normal areas drop items but don't give xp to VR ranked players, but still cause gear to decay.
This is why it's a PVE Tax - it's a tax on ability to earn (through drops).
Yeah, I agree that it's mobs within your level range, (the ones that can drop items, give XP (except for once you've hit Vet), and build ultimate). Maybe I misread what you posted earlier, but it sounded like you were saying the dropped items themselves were incurring the deterioration, which didn't, and doesn't, make sense.
No it's as above, mobs within level range that can drop items = gear decay.
This theory has a giant hole in it. It fails to explain why durability damage occurs when gaining exploration XP. It is likely incorrect.
Interesting; and how then would you explain not getting decay when killing mobs which drop leather scraps, but are not within level range?
Babylon and I have been talking past each other for days...
When he says "drops", he's not actually talking about items you loot off the enemies, he's talking about... let's call them "active mobs."
Enemies who are close to your level are active, they generate combat experience, roll on a loot table when they die, can build your ultimates, and can cause your gear to deteriorate.
So, when Babylon is talking about it being enemies that drop items, what he's really talking about is active mobs.
Once you get more than five levels over a mob, they stop being active. In a few circumstances they can still drop leather crafting materials, but that's pretty much it (that I've seen). They don't generate ultimate, give XP, or deteriorate your gear.
Now, there's a weird exception, at VR1, non-Vet enemies won't provide any XP, this is probably just a hard cutoff in the system, and not an indication that they're inactive, but it's why Babylon doesn't want to say it's XP related. Even though, it probably is.
If I had to guess, and this is only a guess, there's either some kind of specific XP lockout when you transition from 49 to 50, or there's a specific change to the way XP is awarded after you hit 50. (I don't know, I haven't gotten past 32, yet, because of this bug. But, that's a guess.)
If it's the latter, then it doesn't mean that you aren't still getting combat XP from kills, just that you can't see or interact with that experience, and it's effectivly meaningless. It might also explain why moving from level 50 to veteran 1 content results in a net reduction in repair costs. But, again, I am guessing here.
That makes much more sense to me! Thank you very much for clarifying.
Edited by Amaylia on 7 May 2014 18:140 -
Darzil✭✭✭Just wondering if it'd help work out exactly what is happening if we were to have an addon to help track this? Currently I was using durameter and checking after each monster manually and trying to remember what had changed.
I think what I'd like would be logging of :
Each kill - Monster level, character level, xp gained
Each durability change - Which slot, item level, quality, % lost. (+trait if sturdy)
Each drop - Item, value when sold
Could then drop it into a spreadsheet and/or study it to see how the system works in different settings and combats. Without an add-on it'd be very hard to play something like a Dolmen or Dungeon and see it's impact kill by kill.
Is there something like that out there ?0 -
Even if you can net gold by repairing your gear, there are still a couple problems. First, I don't want to have to repair my gear every 30-60 minutes. And second, it is far more profitable to never repair your gear and just replace it. So there is a fun/gameplay issue and a balance issue.
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Darzil✭✭✭Whipped up my first lua script (it's buggy on load, and won't be distributed), but it is at least showing durability hits. On level 36 monsters at level 38, with level 30-36 gear, I'm seeing 0-1% hits on weak monsters like Wolves, 1-2% on normal monsters, and 2-3% on harder monsters like Trolls. Ice Wraiths were normal, but doing 2-3%, so maybe some monsters cause greater decay.0
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babylon✭✭✭✭✭
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I'm a she btw. And to me it appears this is simply a tax on items dropping, a horrible goldsink penalty. There is no more complexity to it than that. No amount of dodging/blocking/dancing around the screen and CCing will make this very simple tax less punishing. We are simply getting taxed for gaining items.starkerealm wrote: »
That would have to be a bug. Keep reporting it. I have never seen gear decay from gaining exploration xp.starkerealm wrote: »
It's mobs that can drop, mobs that are within your level range. As for whether or not those mobs actually do drop, that's down to the RNG.starkerealm wrote: »
It cannot be drops. I just got degradation on non-dropping enemies that were at level and awarding combat XP.
It's drops and not xp because L50 mobs in the normal areas drop items but don't give xp to VR ranked players, but still cause gear to decay.
This is why it's a PVE Tax - it's a tax on ability to earn (through drops).
Yeah, I agree that it's mobs within your level range, (the ones that can drop items, give XP (except for once you've hit Vet), and build ultimate). Maybe I misread what you posted earlier, but it sounded like you were saying the dropped items themselves were incurring the deterioration, which didn't, and doesn't, make sense.
No it's as above, mobs within level range that can drop items = gear decay.
This theory has a giant hole in it. It fails to explain why durability damage occurs when gaining exploration XP. It is likely incorrect.
Interesting; and how then would you explain not getting decay when killing mobs which drop leather scraps, but are not within level range?
Babylon and I have been talking past each other for days...
When he says "drops", he's not actually talking about items you loot off the enemies, he's talking about... let's call them "active mobs."
Enemies who are close to your level are active, they generate combat experience, roll on a loot table when they die, can build your ultimates, and can cause your gear to deteriorate.
So, when Babylon is talking about it being enemies that drop items, what he's really talking about is active mobs.
Once you get more than five levels over a mob, they stop being active. In a few circumstances they can still drop leather crafting materials, but that's pretty much it (that I've seen). They don't generate ultimate, give XP, or deteriorate your gear.
Now, there's a weird exception, at VR1, non-Vet enemies won't provide any XP, this is probably just a hard cutoff in the system, and not an indication that they're inactive, but it's why Babylon doesn't want to say it's XP related. Even though, it probably is.
If I had to guess, and this is only a guess, there's either some kind of specific XP lockout when you transition from 49 to 50, or there's a specific change to the way XP is awarded after you hit 50. (I don't know, I haven't gotten past 32, yet, because of this bug. But, that's a guess.)
If it's the latter, then it doesn't mean that you aren't still getting combat XP from kills, just that you can't see or interact with that experience, and it's effectivly meaningless. It might also explain why moving from level 50 to veteran 1 content results in a net reduction in repair costs. But, again, I am guessing here.
Edited by babylon on 7 May 2014 20:420 -
babylon✭✭✭✭✭
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Yes I do, as starkerealm explained above (I found when you get VR the L50 mobs in non-vet areas were not giving xp but still causing gear decay - because they do drop items). Post further back in thread.Edited by babylon on 7 May 2014 20:470 -
Knottypine✭✭✭Secondary equipment, such as a sword and shield in my secondary slot decays even when I never use them. I guess that's intended as well. At least inventory items I'm carrying on my person don't take damage.Edited by Knottypine on 7 May 2014 20:480
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Cherryblossom✭✭✭✭✭
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Yeah I get the same, I thought my problems were over when I hit VR and for a day hardly any decay, next day hour of same old same old (no Dying) my gears at Zero in an hour!starkerealm wrote: »Maybe this is a fluke, but my decay rates seem almost reasonable on my Covenant Sorceror this morning. So far, gaming for a couple hours, I'm out ~225 gold for repairs. And I've pulled in a couple hundred over that...
Seems like a hit or miss for me... Seems like some days I can play for a few hours and only have a repair bill of a few hundred as you are saying. Then, at other times, it seems like I get a repair bill of nearly triple that for no apparent reason (no dying, playing the same way I was when I had the small repair bill).
If this is a tax I'm starting a rebellion this is an unjust tax!
This is total BS, I refuse to believe that this is working as intended or it would be constant!
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mark2472✭✭✭slayer7800 wrote: »Even if you can net gold by repairing your gear, there are still a couple problems. First, I don't want to have to repair my gear every 30-60 minutes. And second, it is far more profitable to never repair your gear and just replace it. So there is a fun/gameplay issue and a balance issue.
I agree, I would be mostly ok with keeping the overall cost pretty close to the same. I would be happy paying more to repair if it took longer for it to break... For instance, if it decayed at half the rate it did now, I'd be ok with paying double the current price to repair.I'm a she btw. And to me it appears this is simply a tax on items dropping, a horrible goldsink penalty. There is no more complexity to it than that. No amount of dodging/blocking/dancing around the screen and CCing will make this very simple tax less punishing. We are simply getting taxed for gaining items.
However, I also agree with this. They took the easy way out imo, and could have added complexity to the formula to reward players for playing well.1 -
kirbus✭✭also when your armor is 0/X it doesn't count towards armor passives, but your still wearing X pieces. i think broken should be 1/2 or 1/4 of total armor and still count towards passives.You can have it. I don't even like sweetrolls. <Crying on Inside>
...Yes, someone did steal my sweetroll.0
