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We need a Auction house
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Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »
Well every AH in every other MMO becomes unuseable by those not buying gold very quickly. Why would any one want that. Id take the smaller market.Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »
How is keeping prices from inflating because of gold sellers not contolling an ah destroying the economy? It isnt.Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »So you're saying that a vast majority of people knew there was no global auction house and still purchased the game and decided on a subscription method. They must have just done that so they could complain about the absence of an auction house.
I already said that I knew there was no auction house when I purchased the game, but was willing to give guild stores a chance to see how it played out. And I don't like them.
Forums are a place to ask for changes to the game. And sometimes changes are necessary. No game is ever perfect, and it would be a disservice ESO just to assume its perfect and not improve upon it.
But this change isnt neccessary. Why is it neccessary to let gold sellers ruin the economy through hyper inflation?
The argument that these guild stores somehow prevent gold sellers doesn't make any sense to me.
Just go log into the game. I saw dozens of gold spamming today and receive numerous mails from them. So if that is the reason I would call it a bad one, because it has already failed miserably at that.
And it may not be necessary for you. But to me it is, for all the reasons I have already mentioned.
Broadening the economy does not mean hyper inflation. It just means a more stable and active market. And that is a good thing. Though it would make it more difficult for price gougers to rip people off. But the only people who would mind that are the price gougers themselves. And I don't feel as if an economy should cater to those people.
Because guilds self regulate. If the leader is active, then gold sellers would get booted and not have a market at all to access. Plus why would a gold seller infiltrate a market of 499?
But a market of 499 will more than likely suck. So there is no point in infiltrating it to begin with. And they will continue to flourish in the zone chats and pester us with letters.
So in the end the only thing these guild stores accomplish is weakening the game's economy.
Also, I should point out I have no problem with them keeping guild stores intact for those who like them. But for those of us who find them lacking, I feel a public auction house should be added. That sounds fair to me.
You misunderstood my post.
What is weakening the economy is not keeping prices form inflating because of gold sellers. It is reducing the market to 499 people.
That does far more damage to the economy than gold sellers ever could.
I can't relate to your post. I've had no trouble using auction houses in other MMORPGs. And I have never once ever bought gold.
The closest auction house I can think of that would resemble a server-wide auction house on this game would be Guild Wars2. And that game's auction house was amazing. My stuff would sell near instantly and I never had problems finding stuff I needed for reasonable prices.
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Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭robacooperb16_ESO wrote: »No. Just no. Having an Auction House just provides an easy way for Gold Sellers to make their gold. Having the Guild Stores is an excellent way to keep Gold Sellers in check and to actually make trading mean something more.
But it doesn't keep them in check. They are rampant like a plague. My mail box and zone chats are flooded with gold sellers.
I rather have gold sellers and an economy I can actually use than gold sellers and an economy I can't use. Guild Stores do not solve the issue of gold sellers.
If you just want to trade amongst your guild that is fine. Like I said, they can keep guild stores in place for those who like them. But for those of us who would prefer a public market we can all access I think they should add one. That sounds fair to me.
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Brennan✭✭✭
You really need to stop being hyperbolic and making broadly generalized statements based on your skewed opinions rather than fact.Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »Well every AH in every other MMO becomes unuseable by those not buying gold very quickly. Why would any one want that. Id take the smaller market.
One other thing - Not everyone agrees with you. Deal with it.One other thing - ESO does not have a global auction house. Deal with it.
I'm okay with people not agreeing with me. What I am not okay with is people who do not agree with the developers and are trying to change a fundamental aspect of the game.
You can either change the way you're playing to fit in the existing fundamental mechanic OR you need to find a game that you will enjoy because it has an auction house.
The game is less than 2 weeks in and everyone is bitching and moaning about something they knew was a part of the game.
"Hey guys! This game is awesome! Let's change it!!"![:\](https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/resources/emoji/confused.png ":\")
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Supersomething✭✭✭
You really need to stop being hyperbolic and making broadly generalized statements based on your skewed opinions rather than fact.Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »Well every AH in every other MMO becomes unuseable by those not buying gold very quickly. Why would any one want that. Id take the smaller market.
One other thing - Not everyone agrees with you. Deal with it.One other thing - ESO does not have a global auction house. Deal with it.
I'm okay with people not agreeing with me. What I am not okay with is people who do not agree with the developers and are trying to change a fundamental aspect of the game.
You can either change the way you're playing to fit in the existing fundamental mechanic OR you need to find a game that you will enjoy because it has an auction house.
The game is less than 2 weeks in and everyone is bitching and moaning about something they knew was a part of the game.
"Hey guys! This game is awesome! Let's change it!!"
This has been something that has been discussed at length since its time in beta. Developer ideas are not always golden by the way and are just as capable of making poor design choices. The current Guild Store with its lack of decent sorting Categories and Search feature would be a prime example.
Remember, you're unique... just like everyone else.
Characters
Tiberius Aulus0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
You really need to stop being hyperbolic and making broadly generalized statements based on your skewed opinions rather than fact.Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »Well every AH in every other MMO becomes unuseable by those not buying gold very quickly. Why would any one want that. Id take the smaller market.
One other thing - Not everyone agrees with you. Deal with it.One other thing - ESO does not have a global auction house. Deal with it.
I'm okay with people not agreeing with me. What I am not okay with is people who do not agree with the developers and are trying to change a fundamental aspect of the game.
You can either change the way you're playing to fit in the existing fundamental mechanic OR you need to find a game that you will enjoy because it has an auction house.
The game is less than 2 weeks in and everyone is bitching and moaning about something they knew was a part of the game.
"Hey guys! This game is awesome! Let's change it!!"
But that is one of the purposes of a video game forum Brennan, to advocate for changes you would like to see.
If it annoys you so much, perhaps hanging out in the forums is not such a great idea - especially so in a thread that is about a change you don't agree with. Because you seem to take the discussion way too personal and I don't want to be responsible for a rise in your blood pressure
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Brennan✭✭✭Supersomething wrote: »
You really need to stop being hyperbolic and making broadly generalized statements based on your skewed opinions rather than fact.Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »Well every AH in every other MMO becomes unuseable by those not buying gold very quickly. Why would any one want that. Id take the smaller market.
One other thing - Not everyone agrees with you. Deal with it.One other thing - ESO does not have a global auction house. Deal with it.
I'm okay with people not agreeing with me. What I am not okay with is people who do not agree with the developers and are trying to change a fundamental aspect of the game.
You can either change the way you're playing to fit in the existing fundamental mechanic OR you need to find a game that you will enjoy because it has an auction house.
The game is less than 2 weeks in and everyone is bitching and moaning about something they knew was a part of the game.
"Hey guys! This game is awesome! Let's change it!!"
This has been something that has been discussed at length since its time in beta. Developer ideas are not always golden by the way and are just as capable of making poor design choices. The current Guild Store with its lack of decent sorting Categories and Search feature would be a prime example.
I agree. The functionality of the existing mechanic can certainly use some work. A more useful means of searching would be a really good start. A scrapping of the existing mechanic in favor of a global auction house would not.
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Brennan✭✭✭
You really need to stop being hyperbolic and making broadly generalized statements based on your skewed opinions rather than fact.Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »Well every AH in every other MMO becomes unuseable by those not buying gold very quickly. Why would any one want that. Id take the smaller market.
One other thing - Not everyone agrees with you. Deal with it.One other thing - ESO does not have a global auction house. Deal with it.
I'm okay with people not agreeing with me. What I am not okay with is people who do not agree with the developers and are trying to change a fundamental aspect of the game.
You can either change the way you're playing to fit in the existing fundamental mechanic OR you need to find a game that you will enjoy because it has an auction house.
The game is less than 2 weeks in and everyone is bitching and moaning about something they knew was a part of the game.
"Hey guys! This game is awesome! Let's change it!!"
But that is one of the purposes of a video game forum Brennan, to advocate for changes you would like to see.
If it annoys you so much, perhaps hanging out in the forums is not such a great idea - especially so in a thread that is about a change you don't agree with. Because you seem to take the discussion way too personal and I don't want to be responsible for a rise in your blood pressure
I appreciate your concern for my well being. I take the discussion personal because the OP and others want to change a game that I really enjoy. I am just fine with the OP and others advocating for changes. I am advocating for that status quo. If for no other reason than the game's current age. It's less than 2 weeks old Jeremy. Why can't you wait and see how things progress before advocating for such a massive and far reaching modification?
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Mantiss✭I'll be happy never having an auction house and LOVE that ESO is structured this way. If anything all of the personal guilds and crafting guilds are already filling the need for those who need it.
Crafters like myself don't need an AH, I prefer the PvE and PvP of the game, screw those who play the auction house. Lets also be real, the folks who DO play the auction house always end up hurting the economies, never helping them. So to those who want an AH, RIP, glad to see you wither away and die.3 -
Ragnar_Lodbrok✭✭✭✭✭
✭
You really need to stop being hyperbolic and making broadly generalized statements based on your skewed opinions rather than fact.Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »Well every AH in every other MMO becomes unuseable by those not buying gold very quickly. Why would any one want that. Id take the smaller market.
One other thing - Not everyone agrees with you. Deal with it.One other thing - ESO does not have a global auction house. Deal with it.
Nme me one mmo where gold sellers dont run the AH.0 -
Opioid✭✭✭
Oh wow, you stumped me here... How about... every MMO I have ever played that had an auction house? I can't think of a single time when I have used an in-game auction house and had my experience ruined by a gold seller.Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »Nme me one mmo where gold sellers dont run the AH.
Could you please explain in detail, exactly how gold sellers ruin the auction house in every MMO ever made?
I really am interested in understanding exactly what your reasoning is behind this argument you keep making against a server-wide auction house.
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radiostar✭✭✭✭✭
✭A guild that is full enough to have a store should be able to sell to the public.
Qualifying for a Guild Store should also mean gaining an open shop that just sells (not buys) to the public. Buying or crafting is done inhouse among the guild members, but selling could be open to the public.
If you are not in a guild, there should be /trader or /seller channel to use."Billions upon Billions of Stars"0 -
Ragnar_Lodbrok✭✭✭✭✭
✭
So you can't name one. I rest my case..
Oh wow, you stumped me here... How about... every MMO I have ever played that had an auction house? I can't think of a single time when I have used an in-game auction house and had my experience ruined by a gold seller.Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »Nme me one mmo where gold sellers dont run the AH.
Could you please explain in detail, exactly how gold sellers ruin the auction house in every MMO ever made?
I really am interested in understanding exactly what your reasoning is behind this argument you keep making against a server-wide auction house.
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Putok✭✭✭Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »
You really need to stop being hyperbolic and making broadly generalized statements based on your skewed opinions rather than fact.Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »Well every AH in every other MMO becomes unuseable by those not buying gold very quickly. Why would any one want that. Id take the smaller market.
One other thing - Not everyone agrees with you. Deal with it.One other thing - ESO does not have a global auction house. Deal with it.
Nme me one mmo where gold sellers dont run the AH.
I was a very active crafter and seller in WoW from it's inception till late 2012. Gold sellers never gave me AH trouble. Their bots actually made me a small fortune. I'd find their auto buyout point, and dump product at that point until they went broke. Every time one popped up, I'd report them, make 6 digits of gold real quick, and they'd go away. I wasn't on a huge server either. With a big AH where you'll have a group of players with adequate combined capital/assets to crush a gold farmer bot, they are a non issue.
Granted they might be trouble in a smaller market, given their primary means of gold acquisition is hacking and thus unhampered by a small market, but that's not what's being suggested. In fact, they could probably do more harm with the current system than one with an open market.0 -
Ragnar_Lodbrok✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »
You really need to stop being hyperbolic and making broadly generalized statements based on your skewed opinions rather than fact.Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »Well every AH in every other MMO becomes unuseable by those not buying gold very quickly. Why would any one want that. Id take the smaller market.
One other thing - Not everyone agrees with you. Deal with it.One other thing - ESO does not have a global auction house. Deal with it.
Nme me one mmo where gold sellers dont run the AH.
I was a very active crafter and seller in WoW from it's inception till late 2012. Gold sellers never gave me AH trouble. Their bots actually made me a small fortune. I'd find their auto buyout point, and dump product at that point until they went broke. Every time one popped up, I'd report them, make 6 digits of gold real quick, and they'd go away. I wasn't on a huge server either. With a big AH where you'll have a group of players with adequate combined capital/assets to crush a gold farmer bot, they are a non issue.
Granted they might be trouble in a smaller market, given their primary means of gold acquisition is hacking and thus unhampered by a small market, but that's not what's being suggested. In fact, they could probably do more harm with the current system than one with an open market.
What you describe is what Im saying, you profited off of gold sellers who were wrecking the market. Because you profited you think it works, and that is not the case.3 -
Drachenfier✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »
So you can't name one. I rest my case..
Oh wow, you stumped me here... How about... every MMO I have ever played that had an auction house? I can't think of a single time when I have used an in-game auction house and had my experience ruined by a gold seller.Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »Nme me one mmo where gold sellers dont run the AH.
Could you please explain in detail, exactly how gold sellers ruin the auction house in every MMO ever made?
I really am interested in understanding exactly what your reasoning is behind this argument you keep making against a server-wide auction house.
SWTOR, EQ2, EQ1, AoC, Rift....just off the top of my head. I made more money in SWTOR than i ever have in any game just from selling loot I picked up while leveling, and crafting mats, on the Auction House.
I'm completely casual, by the way. I craft only for myself, and never play the market. I sell excess mats and loot drops on the AH. The system in this game doesn't work. I see more price gouging going on in ESO than I've seen since the days of EC tunnel chat spam in Everquest.1 -
Opioid✭✭✭Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »What you describe is what Im saying, you profited off of gold sellers who were wrecking the market. Because you profited you think it works, and that is not the case.
Once again, I ask that you please explain exactly how gold sellers wreck the market when there is an auction house. I still don't understand the point you're trying to make.
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Catches_the_Sun✭✭✭✭✭The inclusion of Auction Houses in MMOs was never a positive change. Sure, it seemed more convenient on the surface...every time you level up or need something, you just search for it, sort by lowest price & BAM, you have everything you ever needed. You didn't need to talk to anybody, you had no clue if you were buying from a gold seller in China or a dedicated crafter who worked their butt off to be able to make the items you just purchased. THAT is a broken system.
Auction Houses are one of the features that drove MMOs to become massively singleplayer online games. For those of us who played MMOs before these "features" existed, the changes were dramatic. I think their exclusion in ESO has more to do with rewarding Cyrodiil success through the Guild claim/store system than intentionally pursuing more social aspects of gameplay. Regardless, the exclusion of a global Auction House does promote socialization. Whether that is through buying/selling through zone chat, joining trading guilds, meeting & befriending crafters, or whatever, you have to socialize if you want to trade. In ESO, you can't live under a rock & succeed in trade too. That is a good system.
As for myself, I'm only level 30, but I don't know what all the fuss is about in demanding Auction Houses, and people saying they can never find what they need. What could you possibly need that you can't find? Did you speed-race to VR content & find yourself short of crafters? Are you "needing" legendary gear right this minute?
As my favorite MMO developer once said "We don't have to drink skim milk just because the babies can't have steak."Catches-the-Sun - Argonian Templar - Master Smith, Provisioner, Chemist & Tailor
Valaren Arobone - Dunmer Flamewalker - Master Woodworker, Provisioner, Assassin
Kazahad - Khajiiti Arcane Archer - Master Thief
V'orkten - Redguard Swordmaster
Finnvardr the Frenzied - Werewolf Berzerker3 -
ZiRM✭✭✭✭✭
✭No, I like the way they are doing it. Join a large AH guild.Want to become Vampire? 5k @ZiRM in game.ESO Server Status. ( ^_^)o自自o(^_^ ) SkåL!!!!!3 -
milaan_muc✭✭✭Sorry, i dont want an auction house and i really dont need one. I have more fun selling my stuff directly.2 -
GusionSoul ShrivenI agree with most that an auction house would be more convenient, but it is very early and the current system needs a little more time to develop.
To those say that AHs would make people lazy and people should go out and work for there weapons, armor, etc..., most rewards you get from doing quests are not sellable, on the guild houses anyways, because they are bound to you once you equip them. That would also be an easy fix to an AH to make quest rewards not sellable or transferable.
I don't think the idea of guild houses is a bad one, but maybe they should raise the number of people allowed in a guild from 500 to say 2000 or something. It is very hard to find and sell materials and finished products when you are only reaching 500 people and trying to keep things straight between 5 guilds is very difficult.
I will say that the constant spam in chat with WTB and WTS gets very annoying, but I cant blame people because they are looking to make money on items they crafted or have found and with the current system it is difficult to do just that. I agree with those that say the game should be fun and you shouldn't have to spend your time spamming chat trying to sell or buy things. That just takes time away from doing the enjoyable things in the game like crafting, questing, exploring, and PVP.
Just my 2 cents
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There are two good quotes in this. The first from the OP (I think) who brings up the central idea here, but for all the wrong reasons:
"Secondly, if you are going to go out and find everything yourself what is the point of having an economy at all? That kind of defeats the whole purpose of currency and having gold to begin with."
If you are in a guild with people who fill the crafting niches and swap drops for materials, why the hell do you even need an economy? In short, you don't. That's the incredible departure ESO has from all other MMO's. Gold is no longer a way to keep score.
Now, the second quote:
"No one wants to buy your crap. No one cares you can't be bothered to farm. Why would anyone sell materials to a direct competitor? Why would they give you items to breakdown when they and their peers could mutually benefit? They wouldn't, not without gouging you.
Have you even played the game? There is no ah because no one should be buying that *** and no one should be grinding for drops, none of that crap.
You need a bulk order or epic gear? Hit the forums, the grownups are talking business, and it isn't in any auction house or market. "
A completely delightful response. One that anyone out soapboxing for an AH should heed. ESO ain't WoW kiddies, and it's more hardcore than it appears on first look. There are huge numbers of people who don't want some damn bird swooping down to pick up crap to sell to the AH, or browsing what's on the market from the middle of a dungeon. Mailing stuff out is hard enough to swallow as it is.
If you want market PvP, may I suggest EVE? Otherwise, perhaps ESO is not for you.
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Putok✭✭✭Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »
You really need to stop being hyperbolic and making broadly generalized statements based on your skewed opinions rather than fact.Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »Well every AH in every other MMO becomes unuseable by those not buying gold very quickly. Why would any one want that. Id take the smaller market.
One other thing - Not everyone agrees with you. Deal with it.One other thing - ESO does not have a global auction house. Deal with it.
Nme me one mmo where gold sellers dont run the AH.
I was a very active crafter and seller in WoW from it's inception till late 2012. Gold sellers never gave me AH trouble. Their bots actually made me a small fortune. I'd find their auto buyout point, and dump product at that point until they went broke. Every time one popped up, I'd report them, make 6 digits of gold real quick, and they'd go away. I wasn't on a huge server either. With a big AH where you'll have a group of players with adequate combined capital/assets to crush a gold farmer bot, they are a non issue.
Granted they might be trouble in a smaller market, given their primary means of gold acquisition is hacking and thus unhampered by a small market, but that's not what's being suggested. In fact, they could probably do more harm with the current system than one with an open market.
What you describe is what Im saying, you profited off of gold sellers who were wrecking the market. Because you profited you think it works, and that is not the case.
No. What I'm saying is that the market didn't get wrecked for more than a few hours. Botter jacks up prices. I bankrupt botter. Prices return to normal. Victory.
Botters only, "ruin" very small markets, where their available assets and capital are greater than the rest of the market combined. If they cannot afford to buyout EVERYONE, they will go broke quickly.
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I think you can add an AH without damaging the social side of the game. I'm firmly against LFG tools because I think they harm the game - but I see an AH as positive and would love to see it added. Cheers!0
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Catches_the_Sun✭✭✭✭✭lypheb16_ESO wrote: »I think you can add an AH without damaging the social side of the game. I'm firmly against LFG tools because I think they harm the game - but I see an AH as positive and would love to see it added. Cheers!
I'd like to hear the logic behind this mentality. Whenever you use LFG & somebody joins your group, you are talking & playing with that person. That is social. AH is not.
Catches-the-Sun - Argonian Templar - Master Smith, Provisioner, Chemist & Tailor
Valaren Arobone - Dunmer Flamewalker - Master Woodworker, Provisioner, Assassin
Kazahad - Khajiiti Arcane Archer - Master Thief
V'orkten - Redguard Swordmaster
Finnvardr the Frenzied - Werewolf Berzerker0 -
Al_Harod✭I became interested in ESO because they left out the AH. A megaserver auction house pretty much goes against the rationale of economics. Think about how the real world operates. Sure this is a fantasy world, but I don't think economic theory cares if there are daedra roaming about.
If an auction house existed on the megaserver there would be way too much excess supply for most goods, prices would be driven down with people undercutting each other, really far down... and it isn't a realistic system.
Furthermore, I've had no problem selling most of my wares. I'll admit that I haven't had much luck selling ordinary crafting materials, but you wanna know why? It's because everybody already has plenty. There isn't that much of a demand for something that I find most people tend to have lots of.
My advice is to just join a trade guild, and you will find yourself in a much better place. You have a limited number of suppliers and consumers. Oh wait, except if you own a keep your guild store can be accessed by however many people are in your faction and in that campaign.
You are being forced to spend a little more time earning that gold. Embrace it.2 -
Garetth✭✭✭✭Catches_the_Sun wrote: »The inclusion of Auction Houses in MMOs was never a positive change. Sure, it seemed more convenient on the surface...every time you level up or need something, you just search for it, sort by lowest price & BAM, you have everything you ever needed. You didn't need to talk to anybody, you had no clue if you were buying from a gold seller in China or a dedicated crafter who worked their butt off to be able to make the items you just purchased. THAT is a broken system.
Auction Houses are one of the features that drove MMOs to become massively singleplayer online games. For those of us who played MMOs before these "features" existed, the changes were dramatic. I think their exclusion in ESO has more to do with rewarding Cyrodiil success through the Guild claim/store system than intentionally pursuing more social aspects of gameplay. Regardless, the exclusion of a global Auction House does promote socialization. Whether that is through buying/selling through zone chat, joining trading guilds, meeting & befriending crafters, or whatever, you have to socialize if you want to trade. In ESO, you can't live under a rock & succeed in trade too. That is a good system.
As for myself, I'm only level 30, but I don't know what all the fuss is about in demanding Auction Houses, and people saying they can never find what they need. What could you possibly need that you can't find? Did you speed-race to VR content & find yourself short of crafters? Are you "needing" legendary gear right this minute?
As my favorite MMO developer once said "We don't have to drink skim milk just because the babies can't have steak."
This is exactly right. My most favorite memories of trading in a MMO comes from Asherons Call. We had certain places where we all met an spammed our goods and everyone had an awesome time making their deals. I can remember logging on and for 4 or 5 hours straight making deals and it was some of the funnest times ever, we all knew each other and what we had, etc. AH's just ruin the game and have done so for many years now. Just my 2 cents worth
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Garetth✭✭✭✭One other thing I don't get with people bitching. My soc is level 12 now and she has 8k gold on her own and my lvl 38 Temp who makes her armor and weps as she needs it has over 40k in gold. What's the issue with money?? My temp is lvl 20+ in blacksmith, woodworking and clothing and I have no need to sell stuff for money at all, none.0
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Nox_Aeterna✭✭✭✭✭
✭Catches_the_Sun wrote: »lypheb16_ESO wrote: »I think you can add an AH without damaging the social side of the game. I'm firmly against LFG tools because I think they harm the game - but I see an AH as positive and would love to see it added. Cheers!
I'd like to hear the logic behind this mentality. Whenever you use LFG & somebody joins your group, you are talking & playing with that person. That is social. AH is not.
We currently got an AH, the only problem is the AH size.
Right this moment , the most social aspect anyone needs to have access to it is saying yes to a guild invite.
I have 4 trading guilds , i joined AND muted them all.
They are my AH , it is a small pool of around 1500/1700 players , but i for sure dont talk to any of them."Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
-Hanlon's razor0 -
Kiwi✭✭✭✭why dont staff respond to this?
oh yea thats right, they already did, what was it they said again?
"NO"
/threadA large yellow rectangle
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