Deadly Bash extremely OP.

Hetzer

me bash is about 600 crit, but im cannot kill 5 mobs faster than destro staff(+ something from class as well, i think), but yes it is overpower if you are standing still and bashing to dummy target like outdoor mobs(& some players in pvp zone). I saw some players using skill like teleport. They were faster than a horse. But yes nerf it.

Kellhus

Bash at 45, with a 45 purple shield, is hitting for 180 -- while my base light attack is now over 100.

It is NOT scaling at the same magnitude as my weapon, which is directly going off weapon damage.

Hetzer wrote: »

me bash is about 600 crit.

Love to see a screenshot of this damage.

Kellhus

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

It does more damage then virtually every Stamina Attack in the game.... while having a bunch of other perks..

Based on what data?

The only person saying it hits for more than 2h did it after being called out, and then magically claiming he maxed 2h as well.

The only advantage is that it doesn't take up a skill slot, but since 1h/shield has jack for damage abilities you actually need this skill if you plan on killing things outside of spamming class abilities.

masterlouppub18_ESO

My bash does about 250 at R6 with a R5 epic weapon. How about you *** off instead of trying to nerf 1h + shield's only source of damage. we're not pulling dps like dps and the combinason of bash + blocking cost drain our stamina bar in no time.

Xsorus

Kellhus wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

It does more damage then virtually every Stamina Attack in the game.... while having a bunch of other perks..

Based on what data?

The only person saying it hits for more than 2h did it after being called out, and then magically claiming he maxed 2h as well.

The only advantage is that it doesn't take up a skill slot, but since 1h/shield has jack for damage abilities you actually need this skill if you plan on killing things outside of spamming class abilities.

Would you like to see a screen shot of my 2handed weapon line? Anyone who's used Bash and any other weapon like can tell you it does more damage then two hander. Hell it does more damage then Duel Wield as well.

Hell If you can produce a picture of you hitting for constant 500 damage crits on any of your Stamina based abilities, I'd love to see it.

ZoM_Head

Yes, bashing is seriously OP. It does much much more damage than an upgraded one handed weapon.

I love shields, especially in Skyrim, but running around with a shield, charging and bashing all day....leaves the weapon in the other hand kind of useless.....

masterlouppub18_ESO

If they nerf bashing because of cry babies they better rework 1h/shield and give them an ability that actually do damage

thomas.manzellaub17_ESO

Just thought i'd add this. In the video he is 2 levels higher and against weak quest mobs. As a templar i burn through 4-5 of those at a time within 2-3 seconds by spamming biting jabs or whirling blade

Xsorus

thomas.manzellaub17_ESO wrote: »

Just thought i'd add this. In the video he is 2 levels higher and against weak quest mobs. As a templar i burn through 4-5 of those at a time within 2-3 seconds by spamming biting jabs or whirling blade

Want me to make a video of me killing some Vr3 mobs?

Thechemicals

Sorcerer has same spell skill with 50% reduced casting cost and massive frontload damage and its instant.

Nehemia

God damn it, its not OP. It merely requires less to be effective. I am all in for tying the damage to shields armor rating, but don't freaking nerf its damage. The issue is that bash doesn't scale currently, so when people have horrible gear it appears as "insane damage" that it in reality isn't. Also the "animation blocking" I.E MASK-CASTING is completely different issue, which has been in reported since 1.06 beta build, but hasn't been completely fixed.

Now, stop crying for nerfs for something that isn't broken.

Orchish

People will complain over anything these days.

wretch200

Plus the 5th Perk which when maxed will increase your movement speed by 50% while blocking i believe, mixed with the steed stone, you might as well just have your char moving at a normal players speed.

wretch200

Kellhus wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Umm yea

A small amount of self education will take you a long way.

Proving your own point, lol.

Dirigible

Are you people stupid? I'm sorry its an actual question. Why had they "better" give 1H and shield an ability that does damage? You want to 1-H Shield you should be doing it because you are choosing to tank, not because you expect to be murdering people.

This ability is clearly OP not only in its utility but in its implementation. Numbers aside, what is happening in some parts of this video should not be. In my opinion it needs to be examined.

masterlouppub18_ESO

wretch200 wrote: »

Plus the 5th Perk which when maxed will increase your movement speed by 50% while blocking i believe, mixed with the steed stone, you might as well just have your char moving at a normal players speed.

Did you even try it? you're still slow as *** with that perk

masterlouppub18_ESO

Dirigible wrote: »

Are you people stupid? I'm sorry its an actual question. Why had they "better" give 1H and shield an ability that does damage? You want to 1-H Shield you should be doing it because you are choosing to tank, not because you expect to be murdering people.

This ability is clearly OP not only in its utility but in its implementation. Numbers aside, what is happening in some parts of this video should not be. In my opinion it needs to be examined.

I don't know. So tank based character can actually quest by themself and do thing in the world? Shield bash is perfect the way it is. It does great damage but you cannot pull dps like dps in a dungeon as a tank because if you spend your stamina on shield bashing, you'll run out of stamina in seconds stoping you from being able to block hits.

Aion had a similar things for templar. They had a skill called breakpower which would hit like a massive truck on normal monster/elite but you couldnt use it on bosses because of their immunity to knockdown

If your concern is muh pevepe balance in a zerg vs zerg game then make it so deadly bash only increase the damage on Npc and call it a day

sgtalexinsidpreeb18_ESO

or increase power strike damage accross the board... shield bashing is dump... and landing full charge swing should deal more than bumb with shield..

Evergreen

Nerfs should take a back seat to fixing class skills which are just plain broken such as the Nightblade Assassin skill line which is the most bugged skill line of any class right now. I think Zenimax is smart and will fix broken skills before rushing into nerf territory this early.

That being said Deadly Bash is more than balanced in my opinion especially when you consider the costs.

beravinprb19_ESO

The ability is ridiculous in PvP. You get to do a lot of damage to someone, while at the same time, you block anything they throw at you. That stun they need to turn the tables and get a few hits in? When do they get to use that if you are blocking all the time?

Kluzu

Having only seen many videos on this, I think we should consider that it's fine how it is in PvE, but not in PvP.

In PvE you're better off doing consistent high DPS that makes it easy to manage resources, but in PvP it's almost entirely about burst. Players have less HP than mobs, and for one reason or another getting consistant 500+ crits with bash is possible in PvP where it's almost 1/3 of most people's HP.

The attack hits very quickly, is uninterruptable for the most part, and the caster is well protected as they use it. They use all of their stamina, but it hits so fast that it's essentially a burst skill. I don't have much end-game PvE experience, but it would seem that other skill lines benefit more from passives to where their DPS has more up-time.

This is just what I have observed, it carries a lot of advantages in PvP. I would simply say remove it's ability to crit or have a bigger stamina penalty for blocking while in the bash animation, it would still be strong but more consistent for newer players to learn how to deal with.

Getting jumped, CC'd and crit for 500+ twice in a row from someone you can't return CC to instantly, using basic Cyrodiil stat scaling sucks. Half of it is how the PvP is designed (which is good), the other half is that the weapon set can do a similar job to other weapon sets for a short period of time while doing it's own perfectly.

Evergreen

arnaldomoraleseb17_ESO wrote: »

Well, I have created a post about it in PvP forum, but now I think this is the correct place to discuss about it.

The passive skill Deadly Bash is simply too good and I think it should be balanced. You can do a lot of damage without consume many stamina. Plus, you are blocking and interrupting while use shield bash. I found this video, please take a look and tell me what do you think.

http://youtu.be/RPoKHYhigII

I definitely agree with the guy in the video when he demonstrates how "stupidly overpowered" as he puts it DragonKnights GreenDragonBlood skill is as a self heal. This guy really emphasizes well how overpowered a self healing DragonKnight is.

GreenDragonBlood is especially bad since only that class has access to the skill line unlike DeadlyBash which every class can choose. GreenDragonBlood should definitely be nerfed first for this reason alone. Great video OP, very informative.

Andy22

So instead of still doing assumptions and guessing here are some hard math facts about deadly bash.

LvL 35 NB with purple 1h weapon at 81 dmg, 950 max stamina.

Bash DMG:
182 DMG to a lvl 1 critter
164 DMG to a lvl 33 beetle/dog

Bash Speed is roughly one attack every 0.6 second.
Bash cost is 72 stamina at my lvl, without any reduction gear.
(NOTE: Any stamina/bash reduction jewelery will only apply 50% of its stated values, this means "-14 bash/stamina reduction" only nets a reduction of 7 for bash. I guess thats a bug.)

This means Bash has:
303 DPS (max) at 120 Stamina per second = 2.52 DPS/Stamina ratio

I could reduce bash down from 72 to 52 stamina, using 3x "-13 sta/bash" reducing jewelery, which results in a 39% improvement to:
= 3.5 DPS/Stamina ratio.


Lets compare Bash to a other simple single target spam skill like DW "Flurry".
I get 46x5 + 119 DMG in 1.3 seconds for 241 Stamina.

We get for Flurry:
269 DPS (max.) at 185 Stamina per second = 1.45 DPS/Stamina ratio

Using flat stamina reduction gear x3 we get a 19.3% improvement to:
= 1.73 DPS/Stamina ratio


Conclusion: So even if we add weapon glyph dmg procs, status fire dmg and all DW passives + crits, Flurry will never outperform Deadly bash at the current lvl i can test it (might change at higher lvls!). On top bash has the added feature of a interrupt, which comes in very handy.

So u can compare bash against any other single target skill and ask yourself what benefits u get using this skill over bash and if its worth the cost and a slot.

For me bash is the best "spam" DPS/Sta skill i can effectively use in PvE and u can combine it with any other damage over time skill. I actually use bash up to 3 enemies, at which some AE skills become more attractive, depending on how fast u can pack them together. The problem is, most of the time u have 1-2 pesky ranged mobs in the pack and its not possible to hit all with your AE at the same time, so bash still remains a attractive simple alternative even on multiple mobs.

So i question the logic that bash should be my "best" spam skill in pve, given i have access to all NB and DW skill lines..? This simply makes no sense lore or balance wise.


bye Andy

masterlouppub18_ESO

Evergreen wrote: »

arnaldomoraleseb17_ESO wrote: »

Well, I have created a post about it in PvP forum, but now I think this is the correct place to discuss about it.

The passive skill Deadly Bash is simply too good and I think it should be balanced. You can do a lot of damage without consume many stamina. Plus, you are blocking and interrupting while use shield bash. I found this video, please take a look and tell me what do you think.

http://youtu.be/RPoKHYhigII

I definitely agree with the guy in the video when he demonstrates how "stupidly overpowered" as he puts it DragonKnights GreenDragonBlood skill is as a self heal. This guy really emphasizes well how overpowered a self healing DragonKnight is.

GreenDragonBlood is especially bad since only that class has access to the skill line unlike DeadlyBash which every class can choose. GreenDragonBlood should definitely be nerfed first for this reason alone. Great video OP, very informative.

Dragon blood is op but leeching strike isn't?
Idk about you but healing yourself for 5% health, magicka AND stamina every swing seems better than a 33% missing health heal that cost 440 magicka.

Zsymon

What are you talking about OP? In the video he burned through his stamina like mad using bash. Killing one two-levels-lower enemy with it put his stamina down to 15%. That is a lot less efficient than stamina based abilities. Bash isn't useful for doing damage, it's only useful for interrupting.. the passive just makes the interrupt a little more appealing.

It's not like tank characters need a damage nerf, since doing damage is not a thing they're very good at in the first place. You're not going to get bashed to death by a tank character 1vs1 in Cyrodill anytime soon.

Andy22

masterlouppub18_ESO wrote: »

Dragon blood is op but leeching strike isn't?
Idk about you but healing yourself for 5% health, magicka AND stamina every swing seems better than a 33% missing health heal that cost 440 magicka.

@masterlouppub18_ESO: Its 4% mag/sta and 2% health (no clue if this is a bug or not) It also only works with basic attacks, nothing else, which is a very boring playstyle.

@Zsymon: Hard to read my math i guess, but i did proof that at lvl 35 bash was the best "spam" aka best single target dps/stamina skill i could use.
Maybe this changes at veteran lvl, but from lvl 15 where i got deadly bash up until now lvl 41 i mostly use bash, since any other single target stamina skill i tried is inferior in comparison.

Zsymon

I'm very weary of forum math, I see the results in the video and it is underwhelming as a damage ability. Even if bash were viable to do damage, what is wrong with a shield master doing good damage like that? In reality being smacked in the throat with the edge of a shield is lethal, so it makes sense enough for me. Most stamina abilities have a good to powerful utility other than just damage, so the argument you use for the sake of pure damage just doesn't fly. Sometimes putting an enemy on its back for 5 seconds is more useful than doing a little extra raw damage.

Andy22

Zsymon wrote: »

Even if bash were viable to do damage, what is wrong with a shield master doing good damage like that?

Not "if" thats a undeniable fact.

Most stamina abilities have a good to powerful utility other than just damage, so the argument you use for the sake of pure damage just doesn't fly.

I do agree, but u realize that bash will also interrupt/set off-balance so it has the same or even better utility than other sta skills, depending on your preference of utility.

We also still talk about 1-50 PvE not veteran ranks, so PvE is so crazy easy so i rarely notice the need for a utility in those 5-10 sec quest lvl burst fights.

I don't say bash is "op" in PvE like the topic op, but like i noted its strange that bash is one of the best single target dps option out there, given its found on a very defensive skill line.

Kellhus

Andy22 wrote: »

So instead of still doing assumptions and guessing here are some hard math facts about deadly bash.

Couple of very simple problems with your analysis.

1. Your time value for Bash -- I quote, 'every .6 seconds', is based on what exactly? There is no time log, and you've listed nothing to support what appears to be at best an anecdotal assertion that is fundamentally part of your equation.

2. You picked a comparative skill that functions fundamentally different than bash does. You picked a skill that hits 5 times, which each hit requiring an animation, ending with a final hit that does more damage based on how much damage the previous 4 hits did -- and then are asserting that because of this, bash is superior?

This isn't even mentioning that a morphed flurry provides a base attack speed increase or a disorient chance -- and that the way flurry works is the damage is loaded into the final hit of the chain which will do 50% of all damage from the chain. You also have 5 separate chances to crit, each of which revaluing not only the individual hit, but putting additional damage into the final hit.

Again, Bash is unique in what it does and that it provides an interrupt. Keep in mind, it is available to ALL players without a single skill point spent (anyone can bash), but is really only super valuable with two points from the sword/board passives in place -- furthermore without bash I wouldn't have a single stamina based ability to use after charging that does any damage.

You'll have a hard time finding a good comparison skill for bash, so the value is sort of going to be inferred -- what I don't see, however, is anyone in a full dps build in any group I'm in through the VRs going sword and board for the sweet bash dps, because it quite honestly just doesn't hold up on anything but trash mobs which any build can effectively kill.

Andy22

Kellhus wrote: »

Couple of very simple problems with your analysis.

1. Your time value for Bash -- I quote, 'every .6 seconds', is based on what exactly? There is no time log, and you've listed nothing to support what appears to be at best an anecdotal assertion that is fundamentally part of your equation.

I used "Recount" to verify my avg. dps and "Combat Log Statistics" for the timing and dmg data. So its not an "anecdotal assertion".