Deadly Bash extremely OP.

tossop

Can you explain what skill have 3-4 dmg/sta ratio? Dot skills having better ratio, but cannot be spamming, only if dots can stacks, but i am sure that doesnt. I am sure that aoe skills have better ratio, but iam focused on sigle targed damage ability, i dont know much about aoe abilities ingame now. Sorry for my english.

Ralathar44

tsopoci wrote: »

give some time to zenimax, they sure have good amount work about other fixes, i am sure, that some changes to shield bash coming later . I still think, that shield bash have some imbalance issues to damage/stamina ratio. Is there any other skill, magicka or stamina based that cost 100 mag/stam and deal 300-500 dmg? 1/4 resources/damage ratio.

See I like this type of train of thought. This is taking a deeper look at potential problems instead of thinking it's the most uber DPS ever, of which the game already has much more impressive options. This is much more likely to be adjusted than damage. Though of course it would be better for them to adjust the enchantments first and then see if it needed more changes if this was deemed to be too efficient.

tossop

Andy22 wrote: »

Bash reduced by enchants has around a 3-4 dmg/sta ratio. This is very good compared to other skills, but to answer your question most damage over time skills have better ratios. If u factor in hitting multiple enemies with some ae skills they also often have better ratios.

And of course, shield bash reduced by enchants have 1/9 ratio:
40-50 per 300-500 dmg.(1/400/45)

Maybe i am wrong, i doesnt have lvl50 character now, but somewhere i saw some video that prove bashcost lvl 50 = 220 stamina, deadly bash -50%, -60-70 enchants.

Andy22

tsopoci wrote: »

And of course, shield bash reduced by enchants have 1/9 ratio:
40-50 per 300-500 dmg.(1/400/45)

nah it stays at 3-4 ratio, first off there is no "300-500" the 500 numbers are for bash crits. U also cant reduce it down to 40-50 cost at lvl 50, since the reduction enchants (bash or stamina) actually only apply half of it shown tooltip values. So a "-20 bash" enchant will reduce cost by just 10.

@tsopoci, i was just stating that from a pure ratio perspective other skills are better, but yes its kinda hard to find a similar single target "spam" skill at this ratio.

Xsorus

Ralathar44 wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Rofl... As someone with almost 50 in Bow and who dropped it because it was terrible compared to 1hd shield I don't know who you're kidding.. Your level 25 Bow spec DK is dropping Veterans? Rofl... You realize that I crit mobs for 1500 from behind right with bash?

I drop veterans, if bow is as bad as you say I must be magic lol.

Also I don't use Cinder for the damage, I use it because it has a nasty snare attached to along with a 30% miss rate debuff which is absolutely brutal in fights..I'm certainly not going to replace it with Burning Breath which is blah in comparison to both Pierce Armor and unstable Flames, and sure hell wouldn't replace it with Eruption (The only spell Cinder gets replaced with is Burning Talons)

It seems your knowledge is lacking. Eruption is one of the morphs of ash cloud. Cinder is the morph that adds in the DOT damage, Eruption is the morph that causes a 2 second disorient in an AOE when it is cast. The base ability, ash cloud, already has the 70% snare and 30% miss chance built in. So basically you choose piddly AOE damage over a 2 second mezz on anyone not taking damage at the time, AOE CC.

Unstable Flame is doing some extra piddly damage because you are not built for it and the only reason it's even worth using at all is the animation cancel, but otherwise it's basically a wasted slot on the bar.

Pierce Armor uses stamina which you need for your shield bashing, defense, and break frees. The only reason it's on your bar is because of the armor debuff because you are doing piddly spell damage so the spell debuff doesn't make much of a difference.

Burning Breath does this armor debuff in an aoe using your magicka bar which you rarely utilize. It's also a cone so even if you disoriented people in an AOE with proper positioning you will not be breaking the 2 second mezz. It does half the damage of Unstable flame but does it to multiple targets. It has an 8 second debuff duration instead of piercing armor's 12, but your fight will be decided within that time frame easily.

By substituting Burning Breath for those two skills you free up a slot for some of the CC or buffing skills that do not need high magicka to function well. Petrify is another nice AOE CC, heck even reflective scale would be useful.

These would all give you much more mileage out of your unused magicka bar as well without sacrificing your ability to kill that single target by any significant amount as you have only lost half the damage of Searing Touch and the piddly damage from Cinders by making these substitutions.

It would also make you a much better team player with Eruption, Burning Breath, and Petrify vs your insignificant contributions to your faction farming solos and duos (unless magma armor is up).

And you're level 25 dude..You know absolutely jack about the game.

Come back to me when you're out of the starter area's

Served.

Oh i know what Eruption is, and I stand by my statement, I sure as hell wouldn't replace Cinder with Eruption, While I don't use Cinder for damage...What little damage it does is incredibly more useful then a 2 second Disorient at the start of the fight, and i'll explain why....It can apply burning, which itself its a decent dot, not amazing, but the biggest reason you choose Cinder is because for every person it hits with damage...You get a Tic of Ultimate for it. Meaning if 4 people are standing in your Cinderstorm, you get 4 ultimate everytime it does damage. Eruption doesn't do this from what I can tell. Don't even get me started on PVE where Cinder is vastly superior to Eruption as well.

Unstable Flames vs Burning Breath, I use Unstable Flames because it does vastly more damage then Burning Breath, but for the main reason I use it, Its incredibly cheap to use. My Mana it often used for Defensive Purposes, but i still like to have a decent mana dump, and Burning Breath doesn't hold a candle to Unstable Flames.

Pierce Armor I do substitute every now and again, However not with Burning Breath, I actually tend to remove it from my bar for Absorb Magic. I've not decided which setup I prefer more.

As for Being a better Team Player, I don't tend to run the same setup for solo as I do in a Group.

Burning Talons pretty much goes on the bar 100% of the time when in a Group. Burning Breathing would come no where near my bar.

Oh and Served

tossop

Andy22 wrote: »

, since the reduction enchants (bash or stamina) actually only apply half of it shown tooltip values. So a "-20 bash" enchant will reduce cost by just 10.

So teorethical maximum reduced cost of bash is:
3xdual enchanted jewelry with bash reduction = 6*20 = 120/2 =60

Its true that maximum reduced cost of bash would be 60? Is the calculation correct?

Then cost of bash would be ~220/2-60=50

Andy22

tsopoci wrote: »

So teorethical maximum reduced cost of bash is:
3xdual enchanted jewelry with bash reduction = 6*20 = 120/2 =60

I have tried dual enchant in beta, but i cant confirm any cases after release. If there are cases left, those are probably missed and should be reported/fixed. In general any "unique/bound/locked/set" or "special named" item cant be enchanted at all.

So what u can do is: 3* "-25 bash" = -37 sta reduction (cause of bugged reduction or bad tooltip).

If they fix this reduction bug or the tooltip values is beyond my knowledge. This also happens with the normal sta reduction enchants, so a more complicated tooltip would be needed to fix this problem, if bash should behave differently than other sta skills in regards to reduction enchants.

realking

Bash scales with stamina!

Ralathar44

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Oh i know what Eruption is, and I stand by my statement, I sure as hell wouldn't replace Cinder with Eruption, While I don't use Cinder for damage...What little damage it does is incredibly more useful then a 2 second Disorient at the start of the fight, and i'll explain why....It can apply burning, which itself its a decent dot, not amazing, but the biggest reason you choose Cinder is because for every person it hits with damage...You get a Tic of Ultimate for it. Meaning if 4 people are standing in your Cinderstorm, you get 4 ultimate everytime it does damage. Eruption doesn't do this from what I can tell. Don't even get me started on PVE where Cinder is vastly superior to Eruption as well.

Unstable Flames vs Burning Breath, I use Unstable Flames because it does vastly more damage then Burning Breath, but for the main reason I use it, Its incredibly cheap to use. My Mana it often used for Defensive Purposes, but i still like to have a decent mana dump, and Burning Breath doesn't hold a candle to Unstable Flames.

Pierce Armor I do substitute every now and again, However not with Burning Breath, I actually tend to remove it from my bar for Absorb Magic. I've not decided which setup I prefer more.

As for Being a better Team Player, I don't tend to run the same setup for solo as I do in a Group.

Burning Talons pretty much goes on the bar 100% of the time when in a Group. Burning Breathing would come no where near my bar.

Oh and Served

Ah well, selfish players cannot be helped. Goes to team PVP game, plays it as solo ambusher, contributes a fraction to his side of what he actually could.

Ya know, if you are that focused on being a solo ganker and ignoring the aspects of teamplay there are better builds out there for ganking by far. Builds that kill faster and have more escapability.

Also note that there is a really good chance Magma Armor will be nerfed, it's incredibly strong. If you are that reliant on it you are going to have a hard time adjusting if they nerf it in a bad way.

Lenthas

I think the consensus on this is this:

1h tree has no damage whatsoever, the ability to use the stamina for damage as a tank without needing a skill slot is the perk of that.

The real issue seems to be that people found a exclusive build, medium armor, dragon blood and this bashing.

Bashing on its own+the cost of blocking, makes everyone think twice about using it more than once, but with green dragon blood, and the medium armor perk, some one found a way to use it as a killing tool. Good for them, but if you look at the larger picture, it's a simple 1v1 build at best.
Deadly bash alone isn't OP.

The 3 combinations that some one found (along with enchants btw), is what makes this a great 1v1 tool, on a class that has the most amazing regen ability.

I can go make a compilation of me 1v1 veterans at level 20 for a week then put a 20 min video up with music blasting and whatnot and see how you complain about (my class templar), being OP as well.


I do support the need for some tweaking, like extra cost for blocking IN PVP ONLY, to make up for the ability to block and deal damage at the same time.
Anything they do should be restricted to the pvp though since PvE would suffer tremendously if any nerf is applied with only PvP in mind.

Xsorus

Ralathar44 wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Oh i know what Eruption is, and I stand by my statement, I sure as hell wouldn't replace Cinder with Eruption, While I don't use Cinder for damage...What little damage it does is incredibly more useful then a 2 second Disorient at the start of the fight, and i'll explain why....It can apply burning, which itself its a decent dot, not amazing, but the biggest reason you choose Cinder is because for every person it hits with damage...You get a Tic of Ultimate for it. Meaning if 4 people are standing in your Cinderstorm, you get 4 ultimate everytime it does damage. Eruption doesn't do this from what I can tell. Don't even get me started on PVE where Cinder is vastly superior to Eruption as well.

Unstable Flames vs Burning Breath, I use Unstable Flames because it does vastly more damage then Burning Breath, but for the main reason I use it, Its incredibly cheap to use. My Mana it often used for Defensive Purposes, but i still like to have a decent mana dump, and Burning Breath doesn't hold a candle to Unstable Flames.

Pierce Armor I do substitute every now and again, However not with Burning Breath, I actually tend to remove it from my bar for Absorb Magic. I've not decided which setup I prefer more.

As for Being a better Team Player, I don't tend to run the same setup for solo as I do in a Group.

Burning Talons pretty much goes on the bar 100% of the time when in a Group. Burning Breathing would come no where near my bar.

Oh and Served

Ah well, selfish players cannot be helped. Goes to team PVP game, plays it as solo ambusher, contributes a fraction to his side of what he actually could.

Ya know, if you are that focused on being a solo ganker and ignoring the aspects of teamplay there are better builds out there for ganking by far. Builds that kill faster and have more escapability.

Also note that there is a really good chance Magma Armor will be nerfed, it's incredibly strong. If you are that reliant on it you are going to have a hard time adjusting if they nerf it in a bad way.

See the problem is, you're mistaking what I run for Solo PvP, with what i run for Group PvP...My Videos you see me fighting in, That's my Solo Setup....Its not the same one i use when i'm running in my Gank Group with my Guild...You whining about team player is pretty much code for "Why are you soloing when you could be zerging with me!" But that's the beauty of these types of games, Just because you like running around like a fool backed by 30 other fools, doesn't mean i enjoy it.

Xsorus

Lenthas wrote: »

I think the consensus on this is this:

1h tree has no damage whatsoever, the ability to use the stamina for damage as a tank without needing a skill slot is the perk of that.

The real issue seems to be that people found a exclusive build, medium armor, dragon blood and this bashing.

Bashing on its own+the cost of blocking, makes everyone think twice about using it more than once, but with green dragon blood, and the medium armor perk, some one found a way to use it as a killing tool. Good for them, but if you look at the larger picture, it's a simple 1v1 build at best.
Deadly bash alone isn't OP.

The 3 combinations that some one found (along with enchants btw), is what makes this a great 1v1 tool, on a class that has the most amazing regen ability.

I can go make a compilation of me 1v1 veterans at level 20 for a week then put a 20 min video up with music blasting and whatnot and see how you complain about (my class templar), being OP as well.


I do support the need for some tweaking, like extra cost for blocking IN PVP ONLY, to make up for the ability to block and deal damage at the same time.
Anything they do should be restricted to the pvp though since PvE would suffer tremendously if any nerf is applied with only PvP in mind.

Its not deadly bash itself thats causing trouble..

If i put on some bash cost reduction glyphs, the damage I do with Bash is not absolutely amazing....but the second I start throwing on some Bash Damage Glyphs...That's when Deadly Bash starts being a problem.... If they removed the Damage glyphs, it'd be fine i think...

davidetombab16_ESO

the simple solution is, remove damage from deadly bash and add a sort of defensive buffs, remove all stupid bash damage glyphs

arnaldomoraleseb17_ESO

davidetombab16_ESO wrote: »

the simple solution is, remove damage from deadly bash and add a sort of defensive buffs, remove all stupid bash damage glyphs

THIS.

A bash shouldn't do more damage than a sword attack.

Ralathar44

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

See the problem is, you're mistaking what I run for Solo PvP, with what i run for Group PvP...My Videos you see me fighting in, That's my Solo Setup....Its not the same one i use when i'm running in my Gank Group with my Guild...You whining about team player is pretty much code for "Why are you soloing when you could be zerging with me!" But that's the beauty of these types of games, Just because you like running around like a fool backed by 30 other fools, doesn't mean i enjoy it.

LOL "gank group". Still thinking small scale.

Ralathar44

Guys, I have a solution that allows Deadly Bash to still hurt without being a mainstay attack.

Look, if it's really so big of a deal you can almost just implement diminishing returns. Lets say that every bash past the 1st within 1 second does 20% less damage and hits the floor at 50%. So you'd do 100%, 80%, 60%, 50%, 50%, 50% etc. Resets when a full second has passed.

This would allow you to still utilize Deadly Bash often as a supplemental move but would not allow you to just chain bash for good damage.

Andy22

Ralathar44 wrote: »

Guys, I have a solution that allows Deadly Bash to still hurt without being a mainstay attack.

Look, if it's really so big of a deal you can almost just implement diminishing returns. Lets say that every bash past the 1st within 1 second does 20% less damage and hits the floor at 50%. So you'd do 100%, 80%, 60%, 50%, 50%, 50% etc. Resets when a full second has passed.

This would allow you to still utilize Deadly Bash often as a supplemental move but would not allow you to just chain bash for good damage.

U notice how "clean" ESO default UI is and most other systems are easy to understand. Why in the world would u want to add a special "diminishing returns" system for one special skill?

The solution is to change one 1h&s skill/morph to deal medium damage at low sta cost, so 1h&s also has a decent dmg spam skill. This wont change the playstyle but get rid if the crappy look&feel "bashing your enemy to death, while holding a sword in your hand"

Ralathar44

Andy22 wrote: »

U notice how "clean" ESO default UI is and most other systems are easy to understand. Why in the world would u want to add a special "diminishing returns" system for one special skill?

The solution is to change one 1h&s skill/morph to deal medium damage at low sta cost, so 1h&s also has a decent dmg spam skill. This wont change the playstyle but get rid if the crappy look&feel "bashing your enemy to death, while holding a sword in your hand"

Now you are talking about changing another ability to accommodate the change to this one. This borders on madness. Such information could be clearly presented the passive's tooltip.

Andy22

Ralathar44 wrote: »

Now you are talking about changing another ability to accommodate the change to this one. This borders on madness. Such information could be clearly presented the passive's tooltip.

Oki i give up, if u think it "borders on madness" to rather change one of the useless skills/morphs in 1h&s, than adding a total new system to the game that is only preset in one skill, i'm lost.

On a side-note your "fix" does not "fix" the problem that its silly to rather use your shield than the sword in your hand. Sure we talk about game "logic" here, but its still silly

Jarnhand

As from what I can understand its the Bash GLYPHS that are the problem, not bash in itself. So the easy solution is to nerf the Glyphs, not the skill line, and certainly not the DK class (everyone can spec shield and use Bash)

Mykah

None of you guys get it...
Bash by itself isn't OP, Bash used with ability weaving is OP.

Right now weaving Heavy Attack > Damage Ability > Bash as a combo spammed is the best DPS pvp chain in the game. It doesn't matter what class youre using, or if its 2h DW or 1h/s. You will do max dps while interrupting every second, its broken.

If you don't know what ability weaving is you really have no place in this discussion.

The problem with this is Bash becomes a SPAM attack instead of a REFLEX attack, which takes skill out of the game. The best way to fix this is make Bash damage only land when actually interrupting an attack or spell. Doing this would make Bash SITUATIONAL and reward player skill, instead of its current state where it can be mindlessly spammed in rotation chains.

I would even go so far as to say increase Bash damage by 25%, make it only do damage on an interruot, but give the Bash caster the unbalanced debuff if they miss their target entirely with Bash.

Xsorus

Ralathar44 wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

See the problem is, you're mistaking what I run for Solo PvP, with what i run for Group PvP...My Videos you see me fighting in, That's my Solo Setup....Its not the same one i use when i'm running in my Gank Group with my Guild...You whining about team player is pretty much code for "Why are you soloing when you could be zerging with me!" But that's the beauty of these types of games, Just because you like running around like a fool backed by 30 other fools, doesn't mean i enjoy it.

LOL "gank group". Still thinking small scale.

I think I already covered your thoughts on PvP under "I like to zerg with 30 other fools because I can't compete otherwise"

codyyoungnub18_ESO

Wow this almost officially completes the cry to nerf every skill thread, the only one missing (I kid you not) is Werewolf (I might have missed that one though if anyone else has seen it)

Ralathar44

Mykah wrote: »

None of you guys get it...
Bash by itself isn't OP, Bash used with ability weaving is OP.

Right now weaving Heavy Attack > Damage Ability > Bash as a combo spammed is the best DPS pvp chain in the game. It doesn't matter what class youre using, or if its 2h DW or 1h/s. You will do max dps while interrupting every second, its broken.

If you don't know what ability weaving is you really have no place in this discussion.

The problem with this is Bash becomes a SPAM attack instead of a REFLEX attack, which takes skill out of the game. The best way to fix this is make Bash damage only land when actually interrupting an attack or spell. Doing this would make Bash SITUATIONAL and reward player skill, instead of its current state where it can be mindlessly spammed in rotation chains.

I would even go so far as to say increase Bash damage by 25%, make it only do damage on an interruot, but give the Bash caster the unbalanced debuff if they miss their target entirely with Bash.

Or they could give it bonus damage (+300%) on an interrupt and have the base damage be lower. Either way I do like the way you are thinking about this. If the base damage was set properly this could make the bash damage higher than it currently is on an interrupt and much lower than it is on a normal attack.

This still gives bash it's intended functionality without letting it be a spammable attack.

Crescent

1h/shield should not do damage nearly on the same level of dual or 2h, with all the defensive perks it has.

A Deadly Bash tank does pretty close damage to my dual wield sorcerer. Yeah, it's single target, so what, no stamina build has good AoE at all, so the point is moot.

I'm seeing everyone and their mother running this setup, particularly for solo PvE because it's so effective at making vet rank content a breeze.

dw0011nrb19_ESO

cubansyrusb16_ESO wrote: »

*Watches 8 bashes kill someone*

*enters PvP on my sorc*

* 2-3 shots someone*

*watches video again*

*laugh's*

Yes, this is what I mean? People are tunnel visioned.

/thread closed.

lindechene

louisrabierb16_ESO wrote: »

That being said I think bash (for all classes) should just do damage when actually interrupting something, that way you don't make the passive useless either.

Having read through the whole thread this is one of the most interesting points.

To spin this idea a little further:

Bash damage and stamina consumation should be different based on if a spell is successfully interupted or not.

Reward:

If a player uses bash successfully to interrupt a spell bash consumes less stamina and does bonus damage.

The bonus damage could even be in relation to the spell damage or healing that is interrupted. This would mean using the resource stamina to bash would be rewarded when it is done in critical situations like in boss fights.


Punishment:

If a player uses bash without interrupting a spell bash consumes more stamina and does less damage.

arnaldomoraleseb17_ESO

lindechene wrote: »

louisrabierb16_ESO wrote: »

That being said I think bash (for all classes) should just do damage when actually interrupting something, that way you don't make the passive useless either.

Having read through the whole thread this is one of the most interesting points.

To spin this idea a little further:

Bash damage and stamina consumation should be different based on if a spell is successfully interupted or not.

Reward:

If a player uses bash successfully to interrupt a spell bash consumes less stamina and does bonus damage.

The bonus damage could even be in relation to the spell damage or healing that is interrupted. This would mean using the resource stamina to bash would be rewarded when it is done in critical situations like in boss fights.


Punishment:

If a player uses bash without interrupting a spell bash consumes more stamina and does less damage.

Yes, this could be a good solution.

tossop

Lenthas wrote: »

green dragon blood, and the medium armor perk .

green dragon blood only gives 30% stamina regen, 80/2s is stamina regen cap; its only 24 stamina per 2s, not very helpfull with stamina draining abilities, its minor effect.

Drachenfier

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Poxheart wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Baphomet wrote: »

Ya'll just wait until this guy reaches end game PvP and finds out just how quickly he will die if he doesn't have any stamina to block, dodge-roll or CC-break.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_BaTpZNpLY&list=UUXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw

Umm yea

I've enjoyed watching your GW2 PvP videos and I look forward to watching more of you ESO PvP videos, I don't think this particular supports your argument very well. Nearly 15 minutes of you bashing sub level 50 opponents doesn't really prove anything.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWjeWorgRrU

Pretty much all Vr1+ people

You'd kill them a lot faster if you weren'tspamming bash. That's a pretty terrible example to use as bash being overpowered....takes you a ridiculous amount of bashes to kill someone, depletes almost your entire stamina bar. You could burn people down faster than that if you just used your DK abilities. Like that other guy pointed out, Sorcs can do what your'e doing in 2-3 abilities.

Frankly, I think you're going out of your way to try and make it look OP when it obviously isn't.