Deadly Bash extremely OP.

arnaldomoraleseb17_ESO

Well, I have created a post about it in PvP forum, but now I think this is the correct place to discuss about it.

The passive skill Deadly Bash is simply too good and I think it should be balanced. You can do a lot of damage without consume many stamina. Plus, you are blocking and interrupting while use shield bash. I found this video, please take a look and tell me what do you think.

http://youtu.be/RPoKHYhigII

sliyerking

Wow.. I have a build similar to that one, but I'm on a NB trying to hit 50 with blacksmith and enchanting done first. Then I can play my Tank with full potential of happiness. Bashing has a drawback of draining stamina so, I doubt they'll do much about it.

Custos91

Awesome, exept for the cancel thing, thats a little bit strange^^
I had reaaaaaaallly great problems with my dk, constantly at low health and low magicka...
respecc!

arnaldomoraleseb17_ESO

sliyerking wrote: »

Wow.. I have a build similar to that one, but I'm on a NB trying to hit 50 with blacksmith and enchanting done first. Then I can play my Tank with full potential of happiness. Bashing has a drawback of draining stamina so, I doubt they'll do much about it.

Active skills drain stamina faster than shield bash and does lower damage.

Kellhus

Bash hit for 155, which requires 30 levels in 1h and shield, and at least 2 points for deadly bash. Moderate stamina drain, but certainly not bad. This is necessary because there isn't a single damaging attack in the 1h/shield line. As an almost 40 DK tank with a similar build, I use bash or DK line attacks. 1h/shield has the charge. That's it.

What the commentator isn't showing is the light damage from any other weapon line at an equitable skill level is higher than 1h/shield -- and for the stamina cost (which a light attack doesn't have), bash behaves more like a weapon line ability.. which it really actually is (requires talent points, and has a stamina cost). Pick a weapon skill that does decent damage, and look at the stamina cost. Now, compare that to bash. You'll see Bash is really only amazing so long as you're comparing apples to oranges.

Also: look at any video of someone not using sword and board at the same level -- the weapon abilities scale with weapon damage (which we only have one of, and a shield which doesn't have a damage value). I think at 50 he'll be interested to see what our bash damage looks like comparatively.

Kellhus

arnaldomoraleseb17_ESO wrote: »

sliyerking wrote: »

Wow.. I have a build similar to that one, but I'm on a NB trying to hit 50 with blacksmith and enchanting done first. Then I can play my Tank with full potential of happiness. Bashing has a drawback of draining stamina so, I doubt they'll do much about it.

Active skills drain stamina faster than shield bash and does lower damage.

This is patently incorrect if you just watch the video

Not only does any damaging DK skill (for instance: lava whip) have a better cost of damage to resource (as a class skill it's magic v. stamina), it also hits for more at the same level.

The first ability on his toolbar hits for 111 + a 270 dot all for 80 magicka (the dot hits for more than 270 because it gains power over 10 seconds). Tell me again how the 150 bash for what looked like 20% of his stamina per hit is draining less resource for more damage?

NordJitsu

Green Dragon's blood and Dark Talons are the only two skills that really need a look IMO.

There's nothing wrong with the damage he's doing on bash for that cost and honestly there are quite a few weaknesses in the build shown there that could easily be improved upon.

Drachenfier

What's wrong with Green Dragon's Blood? Don't be tryin to get my only heal nerfed

Garrix

Green dragon's blood combined with molten armor = happy tank time. Oh *** buttons with a great heal attacked.

coldplazma

I feel there is nothing wrong with the bash damage as it costs a resource and the damage is not even as good as other DPS attacks that costs skillpoints.

moXrox

arnaldomoraleseb17_ESO wrote: »

Well, I have created a post about it in PvP forum, but now I think this is the correct place to discuss about it.

The passive skill Deadly Bash is simply too good and I think it should be balanced. You can do a lot of damage without consume many stamina. Plus, you are blocking and interrupting while use shield bash. I found this video, please take a look and tell me what do you think.

http://youtu.be/RPoKHYhigII

You have to compare the dmg of bash with other WEAPON SKILLS which use STAMINA.

The comparison with just light or heavy attacks which dont use any stamina at all does not make sense.

You can spam every attack skill in this game but your ressource (stamina or magicka) will limit its use.

Xsorus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDXmDfqNZhk&feature=youtu.be

As for comparing it to Weapon Skills that use stamina, It outdamages every single one of them, It does a bunch of other things, and most importantly, It doesn't use a Bar Slot...which makes it instantly better then any other Weapon Skill that uses stamina even if they were the same damage.

Kellhus

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDXmDfqNZhk&feature=youtu.be

As for comparing it to Weapon Skills that use stamina, It outdamages every single one of them, It does a bunch of other things, and most importantly, It doesn't use a Bar Slot...which makes it instantly better then any other Weapon Skill that uses stamina even if they were the same damage.

While it may outdamage them earlier in the game, as your weapon damage scales up so will those skills -- the problem is weapon skills are wholly reliant on weapon damage, while bash has to do it's damaged based on something else which doesn't seem to scale quite as effectively. It hits harder at the lower levels and seems to taper off.

My damage with bash at 40 is within a couple of points of this guy's damage at 30 -- yet my weapon skill hits are higher.

tplink3r1

Kellhus wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDXmDfqNZhk&feature=youtu.be

As for comparing it to Weapon Skills that use stamina, It outdamages every single one of them, It does a bunch of other things, and most importantly, It doesn't use a Bar Slot...which makes it instantly better then any other Weapon Skill that uses stamina even if they were the same damage.

While it may outdamage them earlier in the game, as your weapon damage scales up so will those skills -- the problem is weapon skills are wholly reliant on weapon damage, while bash has to do it's damaged based on something else which doesn't seem to scale quite as effectively. It hits harder at the lower levels and seems to taper off.

My damage with bash at 40 is within a couple of points of this guy's damage at 30 -- yet my weapon skill hits are higher.

bash damage scale up too.

Baphomet

Ya'll just wait until this guy reaches end game PvP and finds out just how quickly he will die if he doesn't have any stamina to block, dodge-roll or CC-break.

Kellhus

tplink3r1 wrote: »

bash damage scale up too.

Um.. ok?

At 30 the video shows his bash damage at ~150. At 40 my bash damage is ~160. Yes, that is scaling for sure, but less so than my weapon skills as my weapon level increases.

I don't think you're making the point you believe you are.

Cloakofwinter

Kellhus wrote: »

This is necessary because there isn't a single damaging attack in the 1h/shield line.

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the very first 1h/Shield skill a damaging attack? And the second? Am I misunderstanding you?

Kellhus

Cloakofwinter wrote: »

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the very first 1h/Shield skill a damaging attack? And the second? Am I misunderstanding you?

Let's be clear -- do they do damage and could therefore be called damaging attacks? Yes. What I'm more saying is that these are not attacks you'd use because of their damage output, as they are a taunt, and damage debuff respectively.

Their damage output is low, and stamina cost high as they would more be used for utility.

Xsorus

Baphomet wrote: »

Ya'll just wait until this guy reaches end game PvP and finds out just how quickly he will die if he doesn't have any stamina to block, dodge-roll or CC-break.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_BaTpZNpLY&list=UUXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw

Umm yea

Kellhus

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Umm yea

So you don't have an actual point then?

It does not out damage abilities as weapon damage scales. Does it at 30? Hard to say. The video pretends if you compare an ability that costs stamina to your basic light attack.. you've done something. It's still costly against stamina, and easily on par with any stamina costing weapon skill... which is, outside of layout, what it behaves and acts like.

The ONLY two actual points you can make are: it doesn't take a hot bar spot, and it may scale a little too well at low levels -- but it does help a 1h/shield user level so personally I think it's wash on that one. At 40 hitting for 160 isn't exactly beastly.

If you think it's wildly OP, I advise you to use it. A small amount of self education will take you a long way.

Andy22

Kellhus wrote: »

It's still costly against stamina, and easily on par with any stamina costing weapon skill... which is, outside of layout, what it behaves and acts like.

If u compare Bash to "simple" single target sta skills like "Rapid Strikes" its around the same dps, but slightly more sta effective. This is oki, since u also get a speed boost with rapid strikes or some other effect with nearly all other sta skills, except "Snipe", so no problem so far.

However what most forget in this discussion is the fact that most sta skills are 2-3 times more expansive to activate. Now use the special shielding/sta flat reduction enchants. Rapid strikes would only be reduced by around 5-10% per attack, while bash is reduced by 20-35%. This is what makes bash so strong, u get similar dps, but at half the effective sta cost of other sta skills.
Thats why flat value reduction is a bad idea and they should have gone with a % based version, so all skills profit from it the same way.

So if u only need fast single target raw dmg, without any stun/knockback/slow, bash is the most sta effective skill u can use atm.

Thats what is a bit odd, but ofc if u add more than one enemy other ae skills outperform bash. So its not "Extremely OP", but makes other single target sta skills look kinda useless. So as example bash will always outperform "Rapid Strikes" in any situation.

The problem is also that most of the time during lvling, i don't need those extra utility from normal sta skills or it often takes more time to get 2-3 mobs into ae range, than simply bashing each single enemy down.

So i would prefer they add similar sta/magika cost to our basic "heavy" attacks at similar dmg than bash, so all weapons have access to a simple single target, raw sta -> dmg conversion skill at low per attack sta cost.

How about this world passive weapon skill "Your basic heavy attacks deal 100% more dmg, but now also consume stamina.".

Xsorus

Kellhus wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Umm yea

So you don't have an actual point then?

It does not out damage abilities as weapon damage scales. Does it at 30? Hard to say. The video pretends if you compare an ability that costs stamina to your basic light attack.. you've done something. It's still costly against stamina, and easily on par with any stamina costing weapon skill... which is, outside of layout, what it behaves and acts like.

The ONLY two actual points you can make are: it doesn't take a hot bar spot, and it may scale a little too well at low levels -- but it does help a 1h/shield user level so personally I think it's wash on that one. At 40 hitting for 160 isn't exactly beastly.

If you think it's wildly OP, I advise you to use it. A small amount of self education will take you a long way.

Bash scales with weapon damage, anytime you improve your weapon, the damage on it goes up

at Vr2, its hitting for 340-380 right now, crits for 500+...There is no other weapon ability that i have that comes close to that..

moXrox

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Kellhus wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Umm yea

So you don't have an actual point then?

It does not out damage abilities as weapon damage scales. Does it at 30? Hard to say. The video pretends if you compare an ability that costs stamina to your basic light attack.. you've done something. It's still costly against stamina, and easily on par with any stamina costing weapon skill... which is, outside of layout, what it behaves and acts like.

The ONLY two actual points you can make are: it doesn't take a hot bar spot, and it may scale a little too well at low levels -- but it does help a 1h/shield user level so personally I think it's wash on that one. At 40 hitting for 160 isn't exactly beastly.

If you think it's wildly OP, I advise you to use it. A small amount of self education will take you a long way.

Bash scales with weapon damage, anytime you improve your weapon, the damage on it goes up

at Vr2, its hitting for 340-380 right now, crits for 500+...There is no other weapon ability that i have that comes close to that..

Yeah, which other weapon types do you have to compare it ? Did you master 2h or dual wield ?

Here is an overview about highest damage abilities - ranked by damage. Scroll down for weapon abilities. The highest dps are allegedly comming from Twin Slashes (dual wield).
-
http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/guide-all-damaging-abilities/

Xsorus

I mastered 2H, and then dropped it when I found out 1 handed shield did more damage

and did you really just pull a 2 week post from a guy who pulled his information from ESOhead? I mean really?

Brasseurfb16_ESO

I prefere this ability on a Medium Armour, Sword&Board Sorcerer, with critical surge and jewel glyphs that increases bash dmg.

moXrox

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

I mastered 2H, and then dropped it when I found out 1 handed shield did more damage

and did you really just pull a 2 week post from a guy who pulled his information from ESOhead? I mean really?

You complain that i try to help and give some informations, really ?

This info is maybe better than nothing at the moment since all you do is comparing bash with 2H, but the game has so many spamable magicka and stamina abilities ingame. Before we dont have any more comparison this toppic is all about hot air.

Drekor

It's a stamina spender that does mediocre single target damage. The only reason it's actually good is because it doesn't actually take up a skill slot. And if you think that's broken you should see a Templar with backlash and repentance do this.

Not only that but using your stamina for anything other than blocking on a "tank" is silly. Your spell resistance basically gets cut in half against a spell caster just casting at you, forget even using weakness to elements.

Crescent

The problem is that this does the damage it does on a tank built character.

Xsorus

Drekor wrote: »

It's a stamina spender that does mediocre single target damage. The only reason it's actually good is because it doesn't actually take up a skill slot. And if you think that's broken you should see a Templar with backlash and repentance do this.

Not only that but using your stamina for anything other than blocking on a "tank" is silly. Your spell resistance basically gets cut in half against a spell caster just casting at you, forget even using weakness to elements.

It does more damage then virtually every Stamina Attack in the game.... while having a bunch of other perks..

Lynx7386

I've been thinking about going 1h/shield with bash just because i use all class (magicka-based) abilities on my skill bars, and have no way to convert my stamina into extra damage.

Just looking at the mechanics of it, I dont think it's that big a deal, primarily because you're giving up the major damage bonuses you'd get with 2h or dual wield. 1h/shield doesnt do nearly as much damage as either of those with it's attacks, it doesnt get passive splash damage, it doesnt get auto crits, it doesnt get the passive boosts to weapon type either. Both 2h and dual wield give you effects like increased critical chance, increased damage, armor penetration, or bleed effects based on the type of weapon you're using through passives. I'd be willing to bet that the extra damage any of those adds up to is probably more than the bonus damage you get from deadly bash.

Kyubi_3002b16_ESO

cept you can kill blocking while shield bashing and it doesn't use a stamina slot... Still I like it for the free damage bonus on casting interrupts.
Its their ways of saying Please interrupt those lame healer mid casting