Bolt escape - really?

Mykah

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/97015/make-bolt-escape-cost-20-of-the-magicka-pool#latest

ehzetab14_ESO

Before I report this bug I would just want to make something very clear. I have quit gaming all together for about 2 years and came back just to play your game since it was a fresh twist to the MMO genre. I love the game and see its potential to compete with WOW /rift/ Ion etc... I pray it takes over since I love the idea behind it with the lore and community. Now that being said I would like to report and link you examples on how unbalanced PVP/PVE is at the with multiple videos that I took the time and edited just for this bug report. Now if you don't know already One hand and shield is completely over powered in PVP/PVE to the point where every class has a sword in shield. For a defensive build to put out so much damage with little cost to your resouces even though it a completely defensive build. Here is a video dedicated just to that https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPoKHYhigII . Now moving forward the second and probably the worst of them all is the fact the Dragonknights & Socerers are the most over powered classes by far with no competition in your game. Its to the point if you play anything else your basically not knowlegable of the unfair advantage you have in PVP/PVE. It just seems that certain weapon abilities completely allow them to dominate since their class abilities compliment the other abilities perfectly, that it makes these calsses divine. Here are two examples of this via video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwyVaS_pd-s#t=10 now for the sorcerers broken builds here are 2 which I have personally ran into. Here is example one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1aelUxq3zPU where the sorcerer basically made me feel like a *** for going nightblade for being such a useless class since I have no abilities to control or avoid his broken bolt rift stun/disorientate that allow him to proc instant cast of crystal fragments that not only does a ton of damage but also knocks me down/ or hits me with charge that does damage depending on the distant between me and him. Now here is the link to the 2nd broken build sorcerers are starting to build that allows them to sustain maxium defensive state while still doing crazy damage and recovering resources at the same time, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyZowGSoaWs . Now in the last video linked I was A VR10 with 3 legendary items and the rest of my gear was legendary while he was a VR3. All this being stated I would greatly appreciate if you could contact me through the game or email allowing me to know your team has taken the time to read my report and reviewed the videos I have spent the time to edit or source to you showing you these obvious inbalances in the game. Thank you I hope you guys are doing your best to fix these things cause people are getting impatient.

Nooblet

^ why didnt you just create your own topic showing your videos that make almost no sense, instead of posting them in every thread.

Nooblet

Mykah wrote: »

BE is only OP in the hands of a Vr5+ sorc who can cast it over 10 times. For lower level sorcs casting it for 20% mana its perfectly balanced.
Also dark exchange can be used behind objects with impunity. This is fine for low level sorcs, if they used all their mana on 5 BEs and DE behind a tree, they still cant re-engage using more BEs because doing so would cost them all their mana. A VR sorc on the other can disengage using 5 BEs, DE behind an object, the re-engage with 5 BEs while still sitting on 60% mana and full HP, this is the issue.

There is no problem with low level sorcs BEing to avoid death and being OOM.
There is no problem with DE.
The problem is VR10 sorcs being able to disengage, DE, then re-engage over 75 meters and resetting any fight they choose with 60% mana and full HP, especialy considering how much mana they really have with set bonus recovery and pots..

That is simply not possible without the use of multiple pots/spell symmetry/ dark exchange.

I'm v10,full light armor, If I do nothing but cast BE, I can cast 8 before I am unable to cast anymore until I get more magicka.

Adernath

ehzetab14_ESO wrote: »

<snip>

ErilAq

what nooblet said. Even V10 can't cast BE to the extent people are saying without severely nerfing dps. It's an annoyance, nothing more.

Glurin

Niffo wrote: »

A Sorcerer can restore their health/magicka and re-engage, a Templar can't and won't be able to disengage if the fight goes out of their favour.

Sure, sure. And while they are doing that they may as well just paint a big target on their chest and advertise free AP. Not to mention that particular skill you reference drains a lot of stamina that would otherwise be used for things like blocking, breaking CC, sprinting, etc., which you're going to have to use just to get back to the fight if you want any mana left when you get there. Assuming the enemy didn't decide to chase you down while you were doing an impression of a scarecrow of course.

Niffo wrote: »

No one else could do it just as easily, since no one has the escape that a Sorcerer does.

Go to siege vendor, buy forward camp, put on quickslot menu, go to battle field, press quickslot button, place camp. Which step is it that the sorcerer gets to skip? Do they randomly fart out forward camps or something? I'd really like to know.

Niffo wrote: »

Forward camps don't show up for the enemies, how do you not know this? Are you actually playing the game?

The battle tends to migrate onto the forward camp. The enemy wants it down, obviously. That sets up a big battle icon right on top of the camp, which attracts more enemies. Even if they don't happen to ever see the forward camp, the nearby battle lasts longer. More duration on the icon means more time to attract people.

If you think this somehow means the group that put up the camp has a drastically unfair advantage, then maybe the other group should have put up their own camp. Not like a sorcerer is required in order to place one.

Niffo wrote: »

After he rezzes someone they can then go and rez and those people that are rezzed can too start rezzing. Who are the people this Sorcerer is running with that won't help rez?

And they don't have to spend soul gems to do it? They don't have to stand there pointing at people until they stand up each time they rez someone?

Glurin

@ehzetab14_ESO‌

On your sorcerer videos, you have one that shows a better player (VR10 as well looks like) killing you and another that shows you killing/ganking a bunch of other players. And you think this is proof that sorcerers are OP?

The stun on BE can be blocked by the way. And the instant cast part of Crystal Fragments only has a 35% chance of activating. In fact it looks like he only hit you with it twice during the entire fight. Once near the beginning and once at the end to finish you off. He could just as easily hit you with another Mage's Fury at that point.

Niffo

Glurin wrote: »

Niffo wrote: »

No one else could do it just as easily, since no one has the escape that a Sorcerer does.

Go to siege vendor, buy forward camp, put on quickslot menu, go to battle field, press quickslot button, place camp. Which step is it that the sorcerer gets to skip? Do they randomly fart out forward camps or something? I'd really like to know.

The part where they escaped the fight to drop the camp.

Mykah

Nooblet wrote: »

Mykah wrote: »

BE is only OP in the hands of a Vr5+ sorc who can cast it over 10 times. For lower level sorcs casting it for 20% mana its perfectly balanced.
Also dark exchange can be used behind objects with impunity. This is fine for low level sorcs, if they used all their mana on 5 BEs and DE behind a tree, they still cant re-engage using more BEs because doing so would cost them all their mana. A VR sorc on the other can disengage using 5 BEs, DE behind an object, the re-engage with 5 BEs while still sitting on 60% mana and full HP, this is the issue.

There is no problem with low level sorcs BEing to avoid death and being OOM.
There is no problem with DE.
The problem is VR10 sorcs being able to disengage, DE, then re-engage over 75 meters and resetting any fight they choose with 60% mana and full HP, especialy considering how much mana they really have with set bonus recovery and pots..

That is simply not possible without the use of multiple pots/spell symmetry/ dark exchange.

I'm v10,full light armor, If I do nothing but cast BE, I can cast 8 before I am unable to cast anymore until I get more magicka.

What is the cost of BE for you at vr10 in Cyrodiil?

What is your soft capped mana pool inside cyrodiil?

How much mana do you regen with the debuff in the time it takes to cast 8 BEs in combat in Cyrodiil? How much while out of combat?

I'm honestly curious.

Niffo

Nooblet wrote: »

That is simply not possible without the use of multiple pots/spell symmetry/ dark exchange.

I'm v10,full light armor, If I do nothing but cast BE, I can cast 8 before I am unable to cast anymore until I get more magicka.

You're poorly geared then, I see Sorcerers below vr10 casting it more than 8 times after engaging and using other abilities.

Mange

That 43 second video of the NB vs Sorc, yea, that is just a demonstration of how bad the NB playing was. Bolt Escape was a non factor in that fight, also crystal fragments can be proc'd with any instant cast and I personally proc it with my DoT abilities which are instant cast and low mana.

You should have blocked in that video as soon as he charged, you should have used invisibility a lot earlier as well.

Nooblet

Niffo wrote: »

Nooblet wrote: »

That is simply not possible without the use of multiple pots/spell symmetry/ dark exchange.

I'm v10,full light armor, If I do nothing but cast BE, I can cast 8 before I am unable to cast anymore until I get more magicka.

You're poorly geared then, I see Sorcerers below vr10 casting it more than 8 times after engaging and using other abilities.

While I am not Max magica build( I use 2 Health rings for 10% crit), I am over 2000 magicka, which is well over the softcap. I was also not using food though. You are not taking into account that they are using potions or some other means of magicka regen. But the most they will have is around 2200. That MIGHT add a 9th cast. Now.. If i cast a few then take some breaks in between, then cast a few more etc I can manage more.. but 8 in a row is my max if i cast back to back without pots. More magicka gear MIGHT net 1 extra cast. But ok you can think that my gear is bad and that they can cast BE forever.

It is FAR more likely that you are exaggerating on how many times it was used or that they weren't casting them in quick succession

Glurin

Niffo wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Niffo wrote: »

No one else could do it just as easily, since no one has the escape that a Sorcerer does.

Go to siege vendor, buy forward camp, put on quickslot menu, go to battle field, press quickslot button, place camp. Which step is it that the sorcerer gets to skip? Do they randomly fart out forward camps or something? I'd really like to know.

The part where they escaped the fight to drop the camp.

So a NB, Templar or DK can't turn around, take ten steps forward and drop a forward camp on the ground? Running away isn't even a requirement to drop the stupid thing in the first place you know. Not that running away comes with a "Sorcerers Only" label either.

Luvsfuzzybunnies

ErilAq wrote: »

the build you're descibing as OP is capable of nothing but running away. Let's say the sorc is running magelight, bolt escape, immovable, dark exchange, and bound armor. congratulations, you've just created a sorc that can run like a champ, and hit like a noodle. There's a trade off for doing that, ergo it's not OP. As to setting up forward camp, anyone can do it. Rezzing the group? you've already killed them once, plus the sheer amount of soul gems needed, and the time. People want it nerfed because they want the kill, and get annoyed that they can't get it 100% of the time. That does not mean the annoying ability is OP however.

Because there isnt weapon swapping and you cant possibly use two different sets of abilities and switch them out in an instant.

Niffo

Glurin wrote: »

So a NB, Templar or DK can't turn around, take ten steps forward and drop a forward camp on the ground? Running away isn't even a requirement to drop the stupid thing in the first place you know. Not that running away comes with a "Sorcerers Only" label either.

If they're looking to have the camp immediately destroyed by the people they were fighting, yes, if not then no they can't.

Travail

NordJitsu wrote: »

@Armitas‌

To be fair, that was one of many options given as conversation starters, not an actual suggestion of mine.

I made clear throughout that thread that the best option IMO would be to add an immunity after dodge rolling out of any immobilize. Selectively quoting me to make it seem as if I said something other than what I did is disingenuous.

Cost increases are an acceptable way to balance certain skills though, in my opinion. In the Psijic Order, I was the one who lead the charge for a cost increase to Flying Blade. Before, it could be spammed like literally 30 times. The whole meta of the PTS for weeks was "see how much you can reduce stamina costs, increase stamina pool, and increase stamina regen" because the most effective PvPers were the ones who could spam that skill the most times.

Bolt Escape can be cast 5-7 times by your average sorc. For high stat and top geared sorcs, they can get it above 10. But that's with a full magicka bar. When you're trying to escape a fight, you rarely do so with a full bar. The only exception is using it as a counter ganking skill, which again, I think is balanced. A NB can gank from stealth like no other. DKs can cast Dragon's Blood to save themselves. Templars can cast Lingering Ritual. That gets them back in the fight and lets them survive the gank. NBs can go invisible or use Path of Darkness to retreat and selectively reengage. Sorcs can do the same using BE.

We don't have an in combat self heal that allows us to stay there, so we get to retreat, regen, and come back. Same as NBs.

Just so we're clear, every class has healing. The Sorc has no emergency heal within their class, but they do have healing. If you are running with the Critical Surge buff in PvP, you will be healing for a decent amount over the course of the fight. And it only gets better in group settings, which is where most PvP happens. The Nightblade has multiple heals, but again has no emergency heal. That's quite a bit different from having no heals whatsoever.

And let's not be disingenuous. Of course 12-14 times is with a full magicka bar, and of course a Sorc will rarely be using BE with a full magicka pool. But, since their opponent will ALSO not have a full magicka/stamina bar (unless you're suggesting I can beat a Sorcerer without using any of my own resources) then we have to talk about abilities from a common reference point. That common reference point is a full resource bar, because any other point of reference would be arbitrary, and opens up opportunities to skew the facts.

I mean, your "average DK", when low on magicka, can only use Talons once or maybe twice before going OOM. So, I guess no change is required to Talons, right? I don't know why you bothered making a thread calling for a nerf to Talons when this skill is so obviously balanced.

Oh, yeah, and you know how you said the Dragonknight gets Dragon's Blood to heal himself? Well, how is he supposed to use that without any magicka? With a low enough magicka pool, Dragon's Blood can't be cast, and therefore offers the DK absolutely no advantage over classes which do not have self-heals.

You know, I see why you like this line of reasoning so much. Anything and everything can be made to appear perfectly balanced -underwhelming even- if we simply assume that the character trying to use the ability has a sufficiently drained pool of resources.

-Travail.

Luvsfuzzybunnies

ErilAq wrote: »

the build you're descibing as OP is capable of nothing but running away. Let's say the sorc is running magelight, bolt escape, immovable, dark exchange, and bound armor. congratulations, you've just created a sorc that can run like a champ, and hit like a noodle. There's a trade off for doing that, ergo it's not OP. As to setting up forward camp, anyone can do it. Rezzing the group? you've already killed them once, plus the sheer amount of soul gems needed, and the time. People want it nerfed because they want the kill, and get annoyed that they can't get it 100% of the time. That does not mean the annoying ability is OP however.

I will flat out tell you yes I want the kill. The problem is if a sorc is just facerolling there is no chance to get it. They happen to be the only class who can with 100% success run if they are not too greedy or another sorc isnt chasing them. So if we would like to come back to reality for a sec and actually acknowledge there is a problem we will all be able to move on and keep playing different classes. If not we can all just roll sorcs and see how long it takes to move on to a new game.

Luvsfuzzybunnies

Im not saying take away your precious just that it needs some modification or a counter to bring it down to a reasonable level.

JosephChip

ErilAq wrote: »

what nooblet said. Even V10 can't cast BE to the extent people are saying without severely nerfing dps. It's an annoyance, nothing more.

That's right. But it is a massive annoyance. The fact that a Sorc can run from a dozen people spread over a 50 meters area with no issue, just spamming BE over and over, is frankly ridiculous. I was just earlier in a group and a sorc kept arassing us with BE + some weak attacks. It didn't really put us in danger but seeing him teleporting around us, pissing us off with ease and then just teleporting away was disheartening. I believe the complaints are not about how dangerous BE is, rather how stupidly designed and ridiculous to use this skill is.

Feidam

JosephChip wrote: »

ErilAq wrote: »

what nooblet said. Even V10 can't cast BE to the extent people are saying without severely nerfing dps. It's an annoyance, nothing more.

That's right. But it is a massive annoyance. The fact that a Sorc can run from a dozen people spread over a 50 meters area with no issue, just spamming BE over and over, is frankly ridiculous. I was just earlier in a group and a sorc kept arassing us with BE + some weak attacks. It didn't really put us in danger but seeing him teleporting around us, pissing us off with ease and then just teleporting away was disheartening. I believe the complaints are not about how dangerous BE is, rather how stupidly designed and ridiculous to use this skill is.

So he was not a threat and did not do any significant damage, but the ability needs to be nerfed because he stayed mobile and it was annoying? If this is the criteria for nerfing abilities we are in trouble. I have two characters a Templar and a sorc. Both VR. Templar is my favorite and I'm working on getting him to VR 10 sorc is VR 10.. He can't catch a bolt escaping sorc 100% of the time, but I say about 50% of the time he can. Using binding javelin and focused charge. My sorc chases down BE'ers all the time to. Insta cast crystal shard and that sorc isn't flying all over the screen any more. You just have to use the tools avail and if you don't have those tools you get them or find a friend. Admittedly some are better than others, but that is the beauty of the game. Everything is not exactly the same.

The problem here, IMO, is that players have very focused builds that they do not want to deviate from. These builds are usually designed about killing only and lack any kind of other tools. It is easy to see just by watching the battlefield in pvp or others just running around and questing. Just like pve, pvp in eso is all about choice. The game is chock full of punch and counter punch style maneuvers. If you are losing a lot switch it up.

ErilAq

I can understand that, and I appreciate the honesty, my biggest issue is that for sorcs who use it outside of running away can get severely hurt by just nerfing it by making it cost x% more or reduce distance traveled etc. It's not OP to justify that. Although I don't think it's at all necessary, I can see a compromise of increasing the magicka by X % per use (instead of mana regen). that way people who use it to put distance to get out of a face pummeling or to re-position won't get nailed as hard as the strait up runners. Again, I'm of the opinion it's not necessary, but I feel it's a fair trade off.

Nooblet

I personally would rather have a cooldown added of a few seconds. This would also need to add a cooldown to charges/pull-ins. I do not see increasing the magicka cost to be an option that would satisfy people.. unless it was so high that noone used it anymore. Without bolt escape, I would not even try to play as a caster sorc, and instead switch to the tanky builds.

I don't care really what change is made.. but the exact same change needs to happen to charges/pull-ins, as it is one of the very few things a caster sorc can do to get a little space without being free AP.

I know they advertised no cooldowns etc.. but there was a reason cooldowns were originally introduced into games. It's just too hard to keep balanced while still having meaningful spells without them.

Kraigan

Nooblet wrote: »

This would also need to add a cooldown to charges/pull-ins.

About that...you can't pull a player twice in a row or stun a player with a charge twice in a row because of cc immunity. So, while there's not an explicit cooldown on the pull ability, it won't actually pull the same player for several seconds until the cc immunity wears off.

Nooblet

Kraigan wrote: »

Nooblet wrote: »

This would also need to add a cooldown to charges/pull-ins.

About that...you can't pull a player twice in a row or stun a player with a charge twice in a row because of cc immunity. So, while there's not an explicit cooldown on the pull ability, it won't actually pull the same player for several seconds until the cc immunity wears off.

I was not aware of an immunity with pull-in but that's fine if that's the case. The charge would still need to be addressed, as the gap closer is the main reason for using it. (Although it would still be possible for DK to have charge + pull-in, and depending on immunities/cooldowns the sorc would never be able to get any ground)

Way too many abilities have stuns attached imo, but thats a whole different issue :P that I can live with.

In reality though I don't see them adding cooldowns.

Kolache

Feidam wrote: »

The problem here, IMO, is that players have very focused builds that they do not want to deviate from. These builds are usually designed about killing only and lack any kind of other tools.

And how many different types of tools does your Sorc have to keep in his belt to supplement his killing? Damage, damage, more damage, BE, and...? Oh wait, exchange on your alternate bar somewhere I guess?

I love it when BE champions discuss people's unwillingness to adapt to various play-styles while their own focuses entirely on mashing damage keys and a single ability that allows them to charge forward, blink away, and/or effectively bypass soft CC.

Maybe if Sorcs actually had to pop CC immunity and runspeed buffs in addition to BE then people would consider them a character truly built for mobility that should take equal dedication to mobility to catch. As it is BE sorcs can just build for magicka efficiency that applies directly to every other ability on their bar, slot 1 escape ability, and accomplish what anyone else can hardly match with multiple abilities and gear/builds that gimp them in other areas.

ljb2k5_ESO

Escape and CC break is allowing sorc to break cc and escape!?! WTFBBQ!!!!???? Nerf that NAO!

Glurin

@Travail‌

If you're going to gauge a skill based on how spamable it is with a full magicka or stamina bar on a max level character speced for magicka/stamina with maximum cost reduction, magicka/stamina buffs, mundus stone, food, potions, etc., then every skill in the game is overpowered and should be nerfed.

Battles don't work that way. Yes, even when it's a sorcerer trying to get away from an ambush using BE.

Niffo wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

So a NB, Templar or DK can't turn around, take ten steps forward and drop a forward camp on the ground? Running away isn't even a requirement to drop the stupid thing in the first place you know. Not that running away comes with a "Sorcerers Only" label either.

If they're looking to have the camp immediately destroyed by the people they were fighting, yes, if not then no they can't.

I think you've missed the point. Or deliberately ignored it.

Contrary to what some people are trying to claim, running from a fight is not the exclusive purview of the sorcerer. Every class has abilities available to them that can help them escape from a fight. Some of them aren't even class specific. And even if you somehow managed to put none of them on your bar, there is nothing stopping you from putting one foot in front of the other and running for the hills.

Feidam

Kolache wrote: »

Feidam wrote: »

The problem here, IMO, is that players have very focused builds that they do not want to deviate from. These builds are usually designed about killing only and lack any kind of other tools.

And how many different types of tools does your Sorc have to keep in his belt to supplement his killing? Damage, damage, more damage, BE, and...? Oh wait, exchange on your alternate bar somewhere I guess?

I love it when BE champions discuss people's unwillingness to adapt to various play-styles while their own focuses entirely on mashing damage keys and a single ability that allows them to charge forward, blink away, and/or effectively bypass soft CC.

Maybe if Sorcs actually had to pop CC immunity and runspeed buffs in addition to BE then people would consider them a character truly built for mobility that should take equal dedication to mobility to catch. As it is BE sorcs can just build for magicka efficiency that applies directly to every other ability on their bar, slot 1 escape ability, and accomplish what anyone else can hardly match with multiple abilities and gear/builds that gimp them in other areas.

You do realize they are popping more than one ability. Namely the heavy armor active or the unstoppable potion and then utilizing bolt escape. Any sorc that uses bolt escape without those abilities can be caught. Is it easy no and it requires skills designed to do so. Does BE escape need an increase in mana so it can not be spammed as many times in a row possibly. The fact remains while people have shown how to counter BE many refuse to adjust their builds to do so.

I have bolt escape on my healing bar yes. I use it to attempt to escape the myriad of shield bash spammers so I can do my job. I will also use it to chase down those that wish to abuse the ability. Not every sorc out there runs away from the fight. Some of us have the weird idea that we should stay and help our group. Much more satisfying experience being a group player than just being out for ones self.

I would also like to thank you for assuming I just run around pew pew pewing while bolt escaping. My primary role is healing.

JosephChip

Feidam wrote: »

JosephChip wrote: »

ErilAq wrote: »

what nooblet said. Even V10 can't cast BE to the extent people are saying without severely nerfing dps. It's an annoyance, nothing more.

That's right. But it is a massive annoyance. The fact that a Sorc can run from a dozen people spread over a 50 meters area with no issue, just spamming BE over and over, is frankly ridiculous. I was just earlier in a group and a sorc kept arassing us with BE + some weak attacks. It didn't really put us in danger but seeing him teleporting around us, pissing us off with ease and then just teleporting away was disheartening. I believe the complaints are not about how dangerous BE is, rather how stupidly designed and ridiculous to use this skill is.

So he was not a threat and did not do any significant damage, but the ability needs to be nerfed because he stayed mobile and it was annoying? If this is the criteria for nerfing abilities we are in trouble. I have two characters a Templar and a sorc. Both VR. Templar is my favorite and I'm working on getting him to VR 10 sorc is VR 10.. He can't catch a bolt escaping sorc 100% of the time, but I say about 50% of the time he can. Using binding javelin and focused charge. My sorc chases down BE'ers all the time to. Insta cast crystal shard and that sorc isn't flying all over the screen any more. You just have to use the tools avail and if you don't have those tools you get them or find a friend. Admittedly some are better than others, but that is the beauty of the game. Everything is not exactly the same.

The problem here, IMO, is that players have very focused builds that they do not want to deviate from. These builds are usually designed about killing only and lack any kind of other tools. It is easy to see just by watching the battlefield in pvp or others just running around and questing. Just like pve, pvp in eso is all about choice. The game is chock full of punch and counter punch style maneuvers. If you are losing a lot switch it up.

First of all I didn't mention any "nerf". I don't think "nerfing" is the answer. But at the same time I understand where the frustration with this ability is coming from and I. You are a sorc, right? That would explain why you felt immediately treathened by my post even though I am in no way against BE.
To be honest, my idea of balancing this skill would be to increase its magicka cost exponentially. Make it so you can tap it 3 times with no penalty and then the cost increases with each use. Feel free to adjust the number of times or the cost, but this would be my approach.