PTS Update 47 - Feedback Thread for Classes & Abilities Changes

Morvan

madmufffin wrote: »

Morvan wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

GloatingSwine wrote: »

Morvan wrote: »

GloatingSwine wrote: »

Morvan wrote: »

There are better ways to deal with Grim Focus passitivity rather than just completely removing the Weapon/Spell damage, this will hit pure NBs the hardest.

Making so the damage is only granted after firing the bow would be a much better approach, even if at the expense of a lower value.

People keep saying this but no other class has 400 weapon/spell damage that it can just sit on forever on a class line that already has really good offensive passives.

People will slot and use Grim Focus now when they actually want to use Grim Focus. Imagine that, slotting a skill to actually cast it!

But that's exactly what I'm proposing, damage for casting it, you'd actually need to use it, it should definitely not give you free damage for just being slotted.

I do agree that 400 is too much though, that's why I said "at the expense of a lower value."

I'm just not convinced that Nightblade is so weak it needs an extra source of weapon/spell damage at all. Especially not on Assassination, the skill line that everyone is still going to take as a subclass line.

It's because it isn't. Folk are just used to that line and singular ability being wildly OP and want to keep it that way. Sometimes nerfs are justified (but also usual wise caveats that other lines also need buffs because everyone is STILL going to be passively running Assass even after the Bowproc nerf as the passives are just that overloaded).

Most beam builds will likely swap Assassination for either Ardent Flame or Aedric Spear next patch if things go down this route, Assassination passivity isn't good enough to outperform other options if you're not using at least 3 skills from the kit, which beam builds can't do super well, but I could be wrong.

Excuse me? Assasination that gives you 10% crit damage, minor savagery, 7% crit chance while flanking, and 2.5% crit chance per skill from the line doesn't have good passives?

That's not what I said, Assassination on live has such a passive potential due to Relentless Focus giving you 400 W/S Damage while just on the backbar, on top of the already good passives you mentioned, yes.

Thing is, with that W/S Damage going away, it's very likely that most Arcanists will swap out to Ardent Flame so they can run things that better support a beam build, like Claw and FoO, Assa passives alone won't outperform that, and most of its skills require active usage, which doesn't work well with beam.

I am just assuming based on the latest parses I'm seeing though, haven't really parsed on beam this PTS.

Renato90085

Morvan wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Morvan wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

GloatingSwine wrote: »

Morvan wrote: »

GloatingSwine wrote: »

Morvan wrote: »

There are better ways to deal with Grim Focus passitivity rather than just completely removing the Weapon/Spell damage, this will hit pure NBs the hardest.

Making so the damage is only granted after firing the bow would be a much better approach, even if at the expense of a lower value.

People keep saying this but no other class has 400 weapon/spell damage that it can just sit on forever on a class line that already has really good offensive passives.

People will slot and use Grim Focus now when they actually want to use Grim Focus. Imagine that, slotting a skill to actually cast it!

But that's exactly what I'm proposing, damage for casting it, you'd actually need to use it, it should definitely not give you free damage for just being slotted.

I do agree that 400 is too much though, that's why I said "at the expense of a lower value."

I'm just not convinced that Nightblade is so weak it needs an extra source of weapon/spell damage at all. Especially not on Assassination, the skill line that everyone is still going to take as a subclass line.

It's because it isn't. Folk are just used to that line and singular ability being wildly OP and want to keep it that way. Sometimes nerfs are justified (but also usual wise caveats that other lines also need buffs because everyone is STILL going to be passively running Assass even after the Bowproc nerf as the passives are just that overloaded).

Most beam builds will likely swap Assassination for either Ardent Flame or Aedric Spear next patch if things go down this route, Assassination passivity isn't good enough to outperform other options if you're not using at least 3 skills from the kit, which beam builds can't do super well, but I could be wrong.

Excuse me? Assasination that gives you 10% crit damage, minor savagery, 7% crit chance while flanking, and 2.5% crit chance per skill from the line doesn't have good passives?

That's not what I said, Assassination on live has such a passive potential due to Relentless Focus giving you 400 W/S Damage while just on the backbar, on top of the already good passives you mentioned, yes.

Thing is, with that W/S Damage going away, it's very likely that most Arcanists will swap out to Ardent Flame so they can run things that better support a beam build, like Claw and FoO, Assa passives alone won't outperform that, and most of its skills require active usage, which doesn't work well with beam.

I am just assuming based on the latest parses I'm seeing though, haven't really parsed on beam this PTS.

hope they not remove dk 300 wd too

madmufffin

Morvan wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Morvan wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

GloatingSwine wrote: »

Morvan wrote: »

GloatingSwine wrote: »

Morvan wrote: »

There are better ways to deal with Grim Focus passitivity rather than just completely removing the Weapon/Spell damage, this will hit pure NBs the hardest.

Making so the damage is only granted after firing the bow would be a much better approach, even if at the expense of a lower value.

People keep saying this but no other class has 400 weapon/spell damage that it can just sit on forever on a class line that already has really good offensive passives.

People will slot and use Grim Focus now when they actually want to use Grim Focus. Imagine that, slotting a skill to actually cast it!

But that's exactly what I'm proposing, damage for casting it, you'd actually need to use it, it should definitely not give you free damage for just being slotted.

I do agree that 400 is too much though, that's why I said "at the expense of a lower value."

I'm just not convinced that Nightblade is so weak it needs an extra source of weapon/spell damage at all. Especially not on Assassination, the skill line that everyone is still going to take as a subclass line.

It's because it isn't. Folk are just used to that line and singular ability being wildly OP and want to keep it that way. Sometimes nerfs are justified (but also usual wise caveats that other lines also need buffs because everyone is STILL going to be passively running Assass even after the Bowproc nerf as the passives are just that overloaded).

Most beam builds will likely swap Assassination for either Ardent Flame or Aedric Spear next patch if things go down this route, Assassination passivity isn't good enough to outperform other options if you're not using at least 3 skills from the kit, which beam builds can't do super well, but I could be wrong.

Excuse me? Assasination that gives you 10% crit damage, minor savagery, 7% crit chance while flanking, and 2.5% crit chance per skill from the line doesn't have good passives?

That's not what I said, Assassination on live has such a passive potential due to Relentless Focus giving you 400 W/S Damage while just on the backbar, on top of the already good passives you mentioned, yes.

Thing is, with that W/S Damage going away, it's very likely that most Arcanists will swap out to Ardent Flame so they can run things that better support a beam build, like Claw and FoO, Assa passives alone won't outperform that, and most of its skills require active usage, which doesn't work well with beam.

I am just assuming based on the latest parses I'm seeing though, haven't really parsed on beam this PTS.

People already run Herald/Assassination/Ardent in most content. Assassination having the strongest passives in the game means it's an auto-slot even without the weapon damage from grim focus.

CheenTheCat

I think Assassination having strong passives is fine, considering it is a single target skill line that offers 0 cleave and has to supplement from other skill lines to manage in trash / multi boss fights.

It really doesn't feel too OP on its own (in PvE) and neutering it as a whole seems like a bad fix to a non-issue - the real culprit
is once again subclassing.

Slightly boosting other skill line's passives (especially ones that have been known to under perform for a long time such as Shadow, Dark Magic etc.) would certainly help without breaking the balance imo.

I can agree that there will "always be a Meta", as many people like to point out, but if the 2nd, 3rd and 4th best options are 10-20k dps away from that instead of 30-40k I think it would promote a more diverse playstyle which is what ZOS claims to strive for.

Therefore, I really hope they consider reworking some of the underdogs, along with putting a break on the overperformers.

#BeamNerfWhen?

madmufffin

15% crit and 10% crit damage is a TON of added cleave. I definitely agree they need to more aggressive in boosting other dps lines.

Morvan

Renato90085 wrote: »

Morvan wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Morvan wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

GloatingSwine wrote: »

Morvan wrote: »

GloatingSwine wrote: »

Morvan wrote: »

There are better ways to deal with Grim Focus passitivity rather than just completely removing the Weapon/Spell damage, this will hit pure NBs the hardest.

Making so the damage is only granted after firing the bow would be a much better approach, even if at the expense of a lower value.

People keep saying this but no other class has 400 weapon/spell damage that it can just sit on forever on a class line that already has really good offensive passives.

People will slot and use Grim Focus now when they actually want to use Grim Focus. Imagine that, slotting a skill to actually cast it!

But that's exactly what I'm proposing, damage for casting it, you'd actually need to use it, it should definitely not give you free damage for just being slotted.

I do agree that 400 is too much though, that's why I said "at the expense of a lower value."

I'm just not convinced that Nightblade is so weak it needs an extra source of weapon/spell damage at all. Especially not on Assassination, the skill line that everyone is still going to take as a subclass line.

It's because it isn't. Folk are just used to that line and singular ability being wildly OP and want to keep it that way. Sometimes nerfs are justified (but also usual wise caveats that other lines also need buffs because everyone is STILL going to be passively running Assass even after the Bowproc nerf as the passives are just that overloaded).

Most beam builds will likely swap Assassination for either Ardent Flame or Aedric Spear next patch if things go down this route, Assassination passivity isn't good enough to outperform other options if you're not using at least 3 skills from the kit, which beam builds can't do super well, but I could be wrong.

Excuse me? Assasination that gives you 10% crit damage, minor savagery, 7% crit chance while flanking, and 2.5% crit chance per skill from the line doesn't have good passives?

That's not what I said, Assassination on live has such a passive potential due to Relentless Focus giving you 400 W/S Damage while just on the backbar, on top of the already good passives you mentioned, yes.

Thing is, with that W/S Damage going away, it's very likely that most Arcanists will swap out to Ardent Flame so they can run things that better support a beam build, like Claw and FoO, Assa passives alone won't outperform that, and most of its skills require active usage, which doesn't work well with beam.

I am just assuming based on the latest parses I'm seeing though, haven't really parsed on beam this PTS.

hope they not remove dk 300 wd too

Unlikely, to properly build up those 300 W/S Damage it needs 2-3 other skills, plus, it has a duration, Grim Focus gives you more damage for just light attacking and they last forever, it's way too much on a single skill.

I do still think they should have toned Focus back to pre-U46 and made it only pop W/S Damage after casting arrow, through a very short duration, that would reward weaving it and render it unusable for anyone using it passively.

madmufffin wrote: »

Morvan wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Morvan wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

GloatingSwine wrote: »

Morvan wrote: »

GloatingSwine wrote: »

Morvan wrote: »

There are better ways to deal with Grim Focus passitivity rather than just completely removing the Weapon/Spell damage, this will hit pure NBs the hardest.

Making so the damage is only granted after firing the bow would be a much better approach, even if at the expense of a lower value.

People keep saying this but no other class has 400 weapon/spell damage that it can just sit on forever on a class line that already has really good offensive passives.

People will slot and use Grim Focus now when they actually want to use Grim Focus. Imagine that, slotting a skill to actually cast it!

But that's exactly what I'm proposing, damage for casting it, you'd actually need to use it, it should definitely not give you free damage for just being slotted.

I do agree that 400 is too much though, that's why I said "at the expense of a lower value."

I'm just not convinced that Nightblade is so weak it needs an extra source of weapon/spell damage at all. Especially not on Assassination, the skill line that everyone is still going to take as a subclass line.

It's because it isn't. Folk are just used to that line and singular ability being wildly OP and want to keep it that way. Sometimes nerfs are justified (but also usual wise caveats that other lines also need buffs because everyone is STILL going to be passively running Assass even after the Bowproc nerf as the passives are just that overloaded).

Most beam builds will likely swap Assassination for either Ardent Flame or Aedric Spear next patch if things go down this route, Assassination passivity isn't good enough to outperform other options if you're not using at least 3 skills from the kit, which beam builds can't do super well, but I could be wrong.

Excuse me? Assasination that gives you 10% crit damage, minor savagery, 7% crit chance while flanking, and 2.5% crit chance per skill from the line doesn't have good passives?

That's not what I said, Assassination on live has such a passive potential due to Relentless Focus giving you 400 W/S Damage while just on the backbar, on top of the already good passives you mentioned, yes.

Thing is, with that W/S Damage going away, it's very likely that most Arcanists will swap out to Ardent Flame so they can run things that better support a beam build, like Claw and FoO, Assa passives alone won't outperform that, and most of its skills require active usage, which doesn't work well with beam.

I am just assuming based on the latest parses I'm seeing though, haven't really parsed on beam this PTS.

People already run Herald/Assassination/Ardent in most content. Assassination having the strongest passives in the game means it's an auto-slot even without the weapon damage from grim focus.

On live running Dawn's Wrath on Beam builds is more common than Ardent, you're ignoring the fact that outside of Grim Focus giving W/S Damage, the whole Assassination line is counterintuitive to run on a Beam build.

They can't afford to actively cast Grim Focus when they can't properly weave with Beam, Killer's Blade isn't that great when you have Radiant Glory/Opression which they're already running, the only really useful skill for them would be Soul Harvest/Incap.

Slotting skills they can't actively use due to Beam just for free passives isn't going to outperform an Arcanist running Ardent with Claw and FoO on U47.

Again, I'm talking about U47, it's undeniable that Assassination is the BiS line on U46 for any setup, but for beam builds, Molten Whip will very likely take Grim Focus place, the best beam parses on PTS I've seen ALL replaced Assa for Ardent, and if you actually want to run a line purely for passives, Aedric Spear is just better for that.

Tonturri

Crossposting this here from the dark cloak thread.

Some fun numbers to consider.

Using UESP's build editor, my NB build with 42,454 HP has the following values.

Dark Cloak: Cost 3616 mag, heals for 2762/sec for 5 seconds for 13,810 total. 20,715 with the 1.5x buff.

Vigor: Cost 2924 stam, heals for 21864 over 5 seconds (4,373/sec).

Healthy Offering: Cost 3108 mag, heals for 14,583 (we'll ignore the ~3k HP drain).

Coagulating Blood: Costs 3869 mag, heals for 11,841 up to 17,761

Green Dragon Blood: 3869 mag, 40% of missing hp + 1656/sec for 5 seconds. So that's 8,280 for the base HoT, and at 42,454 HP I have 21,227 HP if I'm at 50% health, adding an extra 8,491. 16,771 healing total if cast at 50% HP.

Hungry Scythe: 2600 mag, deals damage, 8,285 healing base and 2760 per additional enemy, then 3,423 HP every 2 sec for 10 seconds. That's about 17k from the HoT and 25k total.

Hardened Ward: 19,433 damage absorbed. Also honorable mention, on the same build the twilight heals for 14,209 on one target.

Polar Wind: 16,050 HP base and 4,420 every 2 sec for 10 sec. That's 22,100 healing from the HoT and 38k healing total.

Restoring Focus (since it restores stam and increases healing): 1,337 per seond, 2,674 every two seconds, 13,370 over 10 seconds and 26k over the full duration of 20 seconds. This is an interesting one since it's the closest in function to Dark Cloak (HoTs and armor buff), but on a class with different design as NB is designed around any Shadow skill givin the armor buff. Still, worth a mention.

Of course, these numbers can vary depending on buffs and whatnot.

Rapid Regeneration: 14,208 over 5 seconds. 2347 mag.

Now, Dark Cloak on PTS is getting a reduction from 5 seconds to 3 seconds to no longer benefit from the duration increase passive. This is a 40% duration reduction and would reduce the healing from:

2762/sec for 5 seconds for 13,810 total. 20,715 with the 1.5x buff.

To...

2762/sec for 3 seconds for 8,286 total. 12,429 with the 1.5x buff.

Do note that this is on a UESP build editor setup meant as a generalist - I use it on my NB to tank a lil, do PvP, open world, etc. It is much more invested into offense than a typical tank build would. However, I think the numbers between health based skills would consistently compare to each other. I just included Vigor and Rapid Regeneration as points of comparison, as they show how the skill measures up against the numbers you get with even comparatively moderate amounts of investment into stats like weapon/spell damage.

In short, Dark Cloak is currently one of the weakest health based heals for tanks (I think Green Dragon Blood could also use some love) and it's going to be even worse than Green Dragon Blood if the duration is reduced. Objectively the worst, beating the GDB heal by 6 HP if at max health and losing at all other times.

It currently costs more and does less than the other options and it's getting nerfed to do even less. It's also a pure HoT with no burst heal component, but still loses out to skills that have both a burst heal and HoT component.

Do note that the Minor Protection is nice, but I did not factor it into the healing effectiveness because 1) That's a lot of work and 2) Minor prot is super easy to get anyway. Similarly I don't factor in the Shadow passives, like the major armor buff, since other skills also grant passives and using more than one Shadow skill means the major armor buff granting passive isn't a dark cloak exclusive benefit.

It could be changed to heal for 5k, 4k, and 3k on the first, second and third ticks of the HoT for a total of 12k while moving and 18k stationary and it would still be bad.

Ideally, I would like to see the skill be a psuedo-burst+HoT - sort of a halfway point between Green Dragon Blood and Polar Wind. Give it a 10 second duration or something, then make the first tick heal for 7k, then 5k, then 3k, 3k, 3k, etc. This would make it feasible - but expensive and not optimized - to use as a burst heal but make it much stronger over time. It would give it a unique place in the assortment of health-scaling based tank skills.

Also, please stop trying to add additional requirements for the 1.5x buff. It's making the skill really clunky and unpleasant/unfun to use. None of the other skills have this kind of limiting requirement. At 7k, 5k, 3k, 3k, 3k, 3k, 3k, 3k, 3k, 3k, (1 tick of 7k hp, one tick of 5k, and 7 ticks of 3k) would put it at 33k HP total and *still* be behind Polar Winds.

There are plenty of ways to make it more unique without enforcing clunky mechanics, like being stationary or blocking (which, unlike every other option, limits the builds that can use it, since for example high HP wardens can still use Polar Winds in pvp but don't have to block to get good value from the skill).

Each HoT tick could require taking damage to be empowered. The last tick could be the strongest, to disincentivise spamming it as a burst heal. It could be a skill that can be held down and channeled, even while blocking, for increasing amounts of HP and then have a HoT after release (please don't do this one I'm just spitballing here).

TLDR: Dark Cloak is currently numerically inferior the vast majority of the time to every other option and the nerf will make it worse. At the very least it needs its healing heavily buffed, and ideally would also get some unique interactions that don't require blocking so the skill can be used by high health builds that don't also block heavily.

code65536

(Reposted from the Dark Cloak thread.)

As someone who mains a NB tank and who has used Dark Cloak for over half a decade, it's fine in its current form, and I'm confused by why it's being changed.

So, first problem is the duration nerf. Originally, Dark Cloak healed for 8s. This was later cut down to 5s, but this was accompanied by an increase in the size of the heal ticks, so that the total heal per cast remained the same, and the heal was just a little more bursty.

But with this duration change from 5s to 3s, there's no accompanying increase in heal strength. It's a straight-up nerf. These are the tooltips that I see on Live vs. PTS, on the exact same character wearing the exact same gear with the exact same food, CP, etc.
Live:

PTS:

The second problem is that I'm not sure the bracing change is really that helpful. Oftentimes, when I'm moving, I'm not bracing. For example, if I'm targeted by Z'Maja's Crushing Darkness, I'm dropping block to kite that and only re-engage block as needed if she casts her heavy attack.

Yes, there are situations where I'm block-moving, e.g., to sidestep and AoE that was just dropped, but in these cases, the movements are generally short, and I'm back to standing still after walking out of the red. I can't think any situations off the top of my head where I'm constantly block-walking. We either make big movements without block, or we do short start-and-stop movements with block.

And there are situations where this change negatively impacts us. For example, if my partner in IA dies, I'll cast Dark Cloak immediately before attempting to rez. Now not only will the heal cover less of that rez duration due to the duration nerf, but I'll also be getting less healing per tick during that time. Sure, this isn't exactly a common scenario, but neither is constant block-walking.

The problem with NB's tank heal toolkit isn't the movement restriction. It's the lack of burst. If you want to cut the duration down to 3s, then do what you did with the 8s->5s cut and give us a bigger ticks (or at least a bigger initial tick).

The final point that I want to make is the reason why I as a NB tank main waited almost two weeks to protest this change, and that's because with subclassing, the few NB tanks that exist in this game have already abandoned Shadow.

@ZOS_Gilliam Tell me why I should take the first option when the second and third options exists?

At the very least, if you're going to axe the duration, then give us something back. Either a bigger initial tick or a lower cost that's more in line with Scythe.

madmufffin

Morvan wrote: »

Renato90085 wrote: »

Morvan wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Morvan wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

GloatingSwine wrote: »

Morvan wrote: »

GloatingSwine wrote: »

Morvan wrote: »

There are better ways to deal with Grim Focus passitivity rather than just completely removing the Weapon/Spell damage, this will hit pure NBs the hardest.

Making so the damage is only granted after firing the bow would be a much better approach, even if at the expense of a lower value.

People keep saying this but no other class has 400 weapon/spell damage that it can just sit on forever on a class line that already has really good offensive passives.

People will slot and use Grim Focus now when they actually want to use Grim Focus. Imagine that, slotting a skill to actually cast it!

But that's exactly what I'm proposing, damage for casting it, you'd actually need to use it, it should definitely not give you free damage for just being slotted.

I do agree that 400 is too much though, that's why I said "at the expense of a lower value."

I'm just not convinced that Nightblade is so weak it needs an extra source of weapon/spell damage at all. Especially not on Assassination, the skill line that everyone is still going to take as a subclass line.

It's because it isn't. Folk are just used to that line and singular ability being wildly OP and want to keep it that way. Sometimes nerfs are justified (but also usual wise caveats that other lines also need buffs because everyone is STILL going to be passively running Assass even after the Bowproc nerf as the passives are just that overloaded).

Most beam builds will likely swap Assassination for either Ardent Flame or Aedric Spear next patch if things go down this route, Assassination passivity isn't good enough to outperform other options if you're not using at least 3 skills from the kit, which beam builds can't do super well, but I could be wrong.

Excuse me? Assasination that gives you 10% crit damage, minor savagery, 7% crit chance while flanking, and 2.5% crit chance per skill from the line doesn't have good passives?

That's not what I said, Assassination on live has such a passive potential due to Relentless Focus giving you 400 W/S Damage while just on the backbar, on top of the already good passives you mentioned, yes.

Thing is, with that W/S Damage going away, it's very likely that most Arcanists will swap out to Ardent Flame so they can run things that better support a beam build, like Claw and FoO, Assa passives alone won't outperform that, and most of its skills require active usage, which doesn't work well with beam.

I am just assuming based on the latest parses I'm seeing though, haven't really parsed on beam this PTS.

hope they not remove dk 300 wd too

Unlikely, to properly build up those 300 W/S Damage it needs 2-3 other skills, plus, it has a duration, Grim Focus gives you more damage for just light attacking and they last forever, it's way too much on a single skill.

I do still think they should have toned Focus back to pre-U46 and made it only pop W/S Damage after casting arrow, through a very short duration, that would reward weaving it and render it unusable for anyone using it passively.

madmufffin wrote: »

Morvan wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Morvan wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

GloatingSwine wrote: »

Morvan wrote: »

GloatingSwine wrote: »

Morvan wrote: »

There are better ways to deal with Grim Focus passitivity rather than just completely removing the Weapon/Spell damage, this will hit pure NBs the hardest.

Making so the damage is only granted after firing the bow would be a much better approach, even if at the expense of a lower value.

People keep saying this but no other class has 400 weapon/spell damage that it can just sit on forever on a class line that already has really good offensive passives.

People will slot and use Grim Focus now when they actually want to use Grim Focus. Imagine that, slotting a skill to actually cast it!

But that's exactly what I'm proposing, damage for casting it, you'd actually need to use it, it should definitely not give you free damage for just being slotted.

I do agree that 400 is too much though, that's why I said "at the expense of a lower value."

I'm just not convinced that Nightblade is so weak it needs an extra source of weapon/spell damage at all. Especially not on Assassination, the skill line that everyone is still going to take as a subclass line.

It's because it isn't. Folk are just used to that line and singular ability being wildly OP and want to keep it that way. Sometimes nerfs are justified (but also usual wise caveats that other lines also need buffs because everyone is STILL going to be passively running Assass even after the Bowproc nerf as the passives are just that overloaded).

Most beam builds will likely swap Assassination for either Ardent Flame or Aedric Spear next patch if things go down this route, Assassination passivity isn't good enough to outperform other options if you're not using at least 3 skills from the kit, which beam builds can't do super well, but I could be wrong.

Excuse me? Assasination that gives you 10% crit damage, minor savagery, 7% crit chance while flanking, and 2.5% crit chance per skill from the line doesn't have good passives?

That's not what I said, Assassination on live has such a passive potential due to Relentless Focus giving you 400 W/S Damage while just on the backbar, on top of the already good passives you mentioned, yes.

Thing is, with that W/S Damage going away, it's very likely that most Arcanists will swap out to Ardent Flame so they can run things that better support a beam build, like Claw and FoO, Assa passives alone won't outperform that, and most of its skills require active usage, which doesn't work well with beam.

I am just assuming based on the latest parses I'm seeing though, haven't really parsed on beam this PTS.

People already run Herald/Assassination/Ardent in most content. Assassination having the strongest passives in the game means it's an auto-slot even without the weapon damage from grim focus.

On live running Dawn's Wrath on Beam builds is more common than Ardent, you're ignoring the fact that outside of Grim Focus giving W/S Damage, the whole Assassination line is counterintuitive to run on a Beam build.

They can't afford to actively cast Grim Focus when they can't properly weave with Beam, Killer's Blade isn't that great when you have Radiant Glory/Opression which they're already running, the only really useful skill for them would be Soul Harvest/Incap.

Slotting skills they can't actively use due to Beam just for free passives isn't going to outperform an Arcanist running Ardent with Claw and FoO on U47.

Again, I'm talking about U47, it's undeniable that Assassination is the BiS line on U46 for any setup, but for beam builds, Molten Whip will very likely take Grim Focus place, the best beam parses on PTS I've seen ALL replaced Assa for Ardent, and if you actually want to run a line purely for passives, Aedric Spear is just better for that.

On live Herald/Assassination/Ardent is far and away the most common end game setup. FoO gives prophecy and easy free damage, Venomous is a nice long dot, and Standard is the best ult in the game. This is the most use config in almost every trial. I know for OC they're mainly running Gravelord for the pen with the split phases, but other than that Ardent is already the meta. The nerf to Relentless objectively changes nothing because Assassination's passives are broken.

YandereGirlfriend

It remains bewildering why they changed the NB Pen passive, which had zero implications for PvE power-creep, into Crit Chance, the most coveted damage stat in the game and a direct and obvious driver of PvE power-creep. Makes zero sense.

madmufffin

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

It remains bewildering why they changed the NB Pen passive, which had zero implications for PvE power-creep, into Crit Chance, the most coveted damage stat in the game and a direct and obvious driver of PvE power-creep. Makes zero sense.

Yeah that one was definitely strange. PVE yearns for crit chance like crackheads and they just randomly gave almost 3 lines worth of it on a passive lmao

Hazorix

The Dark Cloak duration and condition change was completely unwarranted in PvE. Shadow is already lacking compared to other class lines, why nerf it? I'll admit that the standing still condition for the bonus healing felt awful in practice, but the block requirement is no better. If the goal was to separate the balance between PvP and PvE, why not make the bonus healing only work if you actively have a taunt on a monster? This seems like reasonable solution to separate the power in PvE vs PvP, which many skills need. As for the duration, it even says when morphing Shadow Cloak To Dark Cloak "No longer grants Invisibility," yet the Dark Veil passive will not affect it?

Afterip

There are 3 class cleancing skills:

Extended Ritual
Cost: 4860 Magicka
Target: Area
Duration: 30 seconds
Radius: 12 meters
Effect
Exalt in the sacred light of the Aedra, cleansing up to 5 harmful effects from yourself immediately and healing you and nearby allies for 844 Health every 2 seconds for 30 seconds. Allies in the area can activate the Purify synergy, cleansing all harmful effects from themselves and healing for 1912 Health.

Betty Netch
Target: Self
Duration: 22 seconds
Effect
Call a betty netch to your side, which grants you Major Brutality and Sorcery, increasing your Weapon and Spell Damage by 20% for 22 seconds. Every 5 seconds, the netch removes 1 negative effect from you. If no negative effects are removed you instead increase your damage done by 5% for 5 seconds.

Hexproof
Cost: 1670 Health
Target: Self
Effect
Embrace the power of death, removing up to 4 negative effects from yourself. While slotted, the cost of all your abilities are reduced by 3%.

One of them is the BESt, because cleanse 5 harmfull effects,has grerat aoe heal and buffed by healing passives, only one minus - its expencive. Second one has zero cost, and 2 good buffs, but his cleance not so strong,
And third, worst cleance skill, dispels only 4 and by healths cost. So i asking dear @ZOS team, could you pleas add some attention on Hexproof skill, bcs right now its wrost cleanse class skill in the game. There is no one want to pick this if you could pick templar's or warden's cleanse.

katorga

That is the flaw with subclassing....players will choose the three top skill lines for whatever role they are running.

For DPS that means Arcanist base class with Herald of the Tome combined with Assassination. The third subclass line can be tailored to content: Ardent Flame DK, Aedric Spear Templar, or Graveload Necro. That is it. That is build diversity in 2025.

LingDar

Shadow -> Shadow Cloak
Love this change and this increases this skill line value for tanks. I view this skill line as more thief assassin RP line than a serious endgame play line. Which I think we need more RP lines like a Bard line. But to raise this line to a serious endgame line it needs a lot of work.

Assination -> Grim Focus
I agree this skill is much better balanced while before it was way too high in the balance curve it now sits right in the middle. But you just ganked 400 weapon and spell power without replacing it. A Major buff we can source from a million places (including potions) does not replace a unique source of weapon and spell damage. Even just reducing it would not have felt so bad. This will not change the prevalence of assaination in the choices fo liens as the passives are great for damage dealers. I personally like the push and pull of choosing to fire or not fire the skill on my solo and duo characters. But yeah back bar slotting a skill for 400 damage is kina crazy. I think you need to make up some of that 400 damage somewhere else. Ideas:
Reduce each stack to 75%-50% (30-20) and need to be on the current bar to get that.
Grant the stacks damage to the enemy you fire the skill at for 8 to 12 seconds
If I fire 1 shot at boss, it takes 200 extra weapon and spell damage
If I fire both shots it now takes 400 extra damage (or limit to 1 case of damage per target which means I fire it at separate targets)
If you want to get the organized play all excited make it not just apply to you but the whole team
Grant the stacks damage only when consumed will eliminate the should i fire this for heal and burst dmg or keep for dmg bonus.

Banner Bearer -> Class Mastery-> Arcanist
This renders the banner useless. I already have inspired scholarship for my if none grant crux and switching to the ultimate generation does not make up for the loss of 1 of my crux. I would argue that this is already a very expensive skill as it requires double barring and cost a large amount of magic and stamina. I can concede that here is the case where you could get all 3 stacks without needing to use an active skill.
My rotation has been to keep inspired scholarship up, keep banners up (harder to do now in U46) and flail between each beam. I know people can get the third crux without failing so here are some ideas to limit the crux the banner can give:.
Grants a crux if none of the other came from the banner ei the banner can only account for 1 crux in your stack at any time meaning you will need to source you other 2 crux elsewhere
Counts as 1 crux at all time (meaning it never procs the gain crux conditionals, but does grant the crux to be consumed by skills) -> will mean inspired scholarship never procs crux generation
Raises the crux cap to 4 [OPTIONALLY counts as 1 crux] (elevating the consumption of crux boosting it)

ArctosCethlenn

Shadow is in such a sad state, the skills are niche at best and the only really good reasons to run it are

1) you want to have invisibility
2) uncapped fear

the rest is extremely situational. Why ever take shadow as a defensive line over restoring, winter, soldier, etc, there's nothing in it that makes a tank go "this skill is amazing and useful and I want to build to use it".

CheenTheCat

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

Shadow is in such a sad state, the skills are niche at best and the only really good reasons to run it are

1) you want to have invisibility
2) uncapped fear

the rest is extremely situational. Why ever take shadow as a defensive line over restoring, winter, soldier, etc, there's nothing in it that makes a tank go "this skill is amazing and useful and I want to build to use it".

I wished they would at least adress the passives and replace dark veil with something actually useful, like lifesteal or a general boost to buffs / debuffs or even just a pen line

Edit: Wording for clarification cuz English is not my 1st language

silky_soft

Remove the cast time from ambush and rework it. Still waiting.

BasP

I appreciate the changes to Northern Storm in U46, but now I wonder if it could be improved some more. Perhaps it can be turned into a purely offensive skill? The Major Protection buff could then be dropped in exchange for e.g. a longer lasting DoT. It would make the skill more useful for damage dealers in PvE, and it would also make the morphs of Sleet Storm more distinctive from each other.

YandereGirlfriend

BasP wrote: »

I appreciate the changes to Northern Storm in U46, but now I wonder if it could be improved some more. Perhaps it can be turned into a purely offensive skill? The Major Protection buff could then be dropped in exchange for e.g. a longer lasting DoT. It would make the skill more useful for damage dealers in PvE, and it would also make the morphs of Sleet Storm more distinctive from each other.

Agreed. Too much of the skill's power budget is trapped-up in the archaic Major Protection toss-in.

Frost Mages in PvE have wanted to use this skill, their class ult, since ancient ages but it's always been outshined by basic Meteor, which is very sad.

madmufffin

Northern storm giving ele rage levels of damage for 200 less ult would be nice. The archetype desperately needs some love.

Blackrim

I think you need to buff other skills up to par with the main skills to make it "play how you like"

Tonturri

madmufffin wrote: »

Northern storm giving ele rage levels of damage for 200 less ult would be nice. The archetype desperately needs some love.

Maybe losing the major prot could justify giving it more damage. It'd be nice to see NB's veil of blades also get some love.

Hazorix

BasP wrote: »

I appreciate the changes to Northern Storm in U46, but now I wonder if it could be improved some more. Perhaps it can be turned into a purely offensive skill? The Major Protection buff could then be dropped in exchange for e.g. a longer lasting DoT. It would make the skill more useful for damage dealers in PvE, and it would also make the morphs of Sleet Storm more distinctive from each other.

Permafrost needs to be looked at as well. Another source of major brittle would thematically fit the skill and put it closer to other support ultimates.

Lebensf0rm

Tonturri wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Northern storm giving ele rage levels of damage for 200 less ult would be nice. The archetype desperately needs some love.

It'd be nice to see NB's veil of blades also get some love.

Either morph of Consuming Darkness being worth casting ever would be a welcome change. There are a lot of very lackluster "ultimate" abilities in the game, unfortunately.

madmufffin

Hazorix wrote: »

BasP wrote: »

I appreciate the changes to Northern Storm in U46, but now I wonder if it could be improved some more. Perhaps it can be turned into a purely offensive skill? The Major Protection buff could then be dropped in exchange for e.g. a longer lasting DoT. It would make the skill more useful for damage dealers in PvE, and it would also make the morphs of Sleet Storm more distinctive from each other.

Permafrost needs to be looked at as well. Another source of major brittle would thematically fit the skill and put it closer to other support ultimates.

Or major berserk

Blackrim

madmufffin wrote: »

Hazorix wrote: »

BasP wrote: »

I appreciate the changes to Northern Storm in U46, but now I wonder if it could be improved some more. Perhaps it can be turned into a purely offensive skill? The Major Protection buff could then be dropped in exchange for e.g. a longer lasting DoT. It would make the skill more useful for damage dealers in PvE, and it would also make the morphs of Sleet Storm more distinctive from each other.

Permafrost needs to be looked at as well. Another source of major brittle would thematically fit the skill and put it closer to other support ultimates.

Or major berserk

I think major brittle is better. Berserk is unique to DK chains on a single non-ulti ability without any other requirements.

Brittle fits with an ice themed subclass.

Markytous

If you're going to nerf Dark Cloak, make Consuming Darkness a viable ultimate. Instead of nerfing Dark Cloak, buff the other Major Resolve abilities. Grim Focus doesn't need to deal more damage than Ultimate Skills, but it does. Dark Cloak isn't ruining the game in any aspect.

madmufffin

Blackrim wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Hazorix wrote: »

BasP wrote: »

I appreciate the changes to Northern Storm in U46, but now I wonder if it could be improved some more. Perhaps it can be turned into a purely offensive skill? The Major Protection buff could then be dropped in exchange for e.g. a longer lasting DoT. It would make the skill more useful for damage dealers in PvE, and it would also make the morphs of Sleet Storm more distinctive from each other.

Permafrost needs to be looked at as well. Another source of major brittle would thematically fit the skill and put it closer to other support ultimates.

Or major berserk

I think major brittle is better. Berserk is unique to DK chains on a single non-ulti ability without any other requirements.

Brittle fits with an ice themed subclass.

Major brittle would be solid for sure, but I just wish something other than Atro had an application for major berserk in PVE. Major brittle doesn't really add much since you can't really build around it in a raid comp unless you make multiple people run it.

ZhuJiuyin

The previously promised "Bound Armaments will have a higher chance of applying Sundered, so it reaches a closer power level to the Grim Focus morphs" did not appear in this week's patch notes.
Besides, as many players suggested before, having 2 max resource passives in 2 different lines of the same class doesn’t make sense. And Dark Magic needs more buffs than max resource gain to be favored, because the skills and passives of this line are far behind other classes.

Suggestion: Change the Magicka and Stamina of Expert Summoner to 6/12%, which will be 1% less than the original 5+8, as a means of balancing Ward.
As for Dark Magic, although some people think it should be a pure healing line,but the skills are not so suitable for healing (compared to skill lines such as Restoring Light), and abandoning Dark Magic as a dps line will also lose the fun of players playing as dark magicians.
I suggest making it similar to NB's Shadow line, a skill line that mixes damage, healing and utility. Shadow line has higher damage skills such as Twisting Path and Summon Shade, as well as self-buffs such as Blur and Shadowy Disguise, and healing abilities such as Refreshing Path and Dark Cloak. However, Dark Magic can be made more focused on giving debuffs to enemies rather than buffing teammates, to distinguish it from Shadow.

Suppression Field:
Increases the damage of this skill and removes silenced, instead giving Major Brittle to targets in range, making it a more reasonable damage skill and competing with Atronach.
Absorption Field:
Provides low damage and healing at the same time, and gives silenced, making it a composite utility skill.

Crystal Shard:
Slightly increases the damage of both morphs, making it closer to burst damage like Relentless Focus

Shattering Spines:
Removes immobilize and gives a dot that lasts 10/15 seconds to the target hit. Or increase the target's direct damage from the player himself by 5%. (Avoid letting an organized team buff the entire group with just one support in the trial. At the same time, because not all other skills and passive abilities of Black Magic are suitable for output, there should be no need to worry that increasing direct damage by 5% will cause too strong a reaction between Black Magic and Arc Beam. If necessary, it is reasonable to adjust it to 3%.)

Rune Prison:
Both morphs need to be reworked. Maybe one of them can make the target Stun three seconds after causing damage (instead of the current strange version), and the other can be centered on itself and cause Stun to everyone around after a delay of three seconds, instead of having to wait for someone to attack before triggering Stun.

Dark Exchange:
Remove the casting time, PLEASE.

Daedric Tomb:
Another almost dead skill that needs to be reworked. Maybe it can be made into a magic damage version of Fire Rune, but its effect is changed to: "After casting, it causes a violent explosion within the specified range every 5 seconds, a total of 3 times (15 seconds), causing X points of damage to the target within the range". To match the characteristics of Dark Magic that most of the damage is direct.

Blood Magic:
In addition to the original effects, new additions: Increases Minor Mending, or increases critical damage and critical healing by 10%.

Persistence:
A very bland ability that needs to be reworked. For example: "When dealing critical damage or critical healing, restore an additional 1500/3000 maximum resources to yourself, this effect triggers once every 15 seconds"

Exploitation:
Gives it 3000 Offensive Penetration, or increases the direct damage it deals to the target by 5%. Puts it on par with similar passive abilities like Hemorrhage.