The Arcanist is destroying PvE

moderatelyfatman

The title of this thread sounds a little melodramatic but I do think it could be true in the long run.

If the only dps people play in hard content is the arcanist, then the upcoming trials and dungeon hard modes will have their difficulties based around this class. When this happens, RIP any other dps class aside from ZenKosh.

OtarTheMad

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

The title of this thread sounds a little melodramatic but I do think it could be true in the long run.

If the only dps people play in hard content is the arcanist, then the upcoming trials and dungeon hard modes will have their difficulties based around this class. When this happens, RIP any other dps class aside from ZenKosh.

This is where I think ESOLogs is deceiving because you can jump on any combo of classes and as long as you got good dps and know the mechanics you can beat hard modes. “Good dps” is subjective too, if you go on YT you’ll see “100k build this” and “120k easy build that” when those results aren’t the average. 25k-35k (non-trials dummy) can get any content done.

The combo of Arcanist strongest playstyle and how the trials and dungeons are made just means that for leaderboard pushers it’s the best way to get a top score, but really might not speak for how the class handles in all other content.

moderatelyfatman

OtarTheMad wrote: »

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

The title of this thread sounds a little melodramatic but I do think it could be true in the long run.

If the only dps people play in hard content is the arcanist, then the upcoming trials and dungeon hard modes will have their difficulties based around this class. When this happens, RIP any other dps class aside from ZenKosh.

This is where I think ESOLogs is deceiving because you can jump on any combo of classes and as long as you got good dps and know the mechanics you can beat hard modes. “Good dps” is subjective too, if you go on YT you’ll see “100k build this” and “120k easy build that” when those results aren’t the average. 25k-35k (non-trials dummy) can get any content done.

The combo of Arcanist strongest playstyle and how the trials and dungeons are made just means that for leaderboard pushers it’s the best way to get a top score, but really might not speak for how the class handles in all other content.

Good point. However, if all people see are arcanist dps in endgame, people will start making long term decisions by choosing the arcanist class.
Classic example is dps necro, warden or nightblade. If a new player came into the game and asked you what class to play if they wanted the option to eventually do endgame dps, would you recommend those three?

Niliu

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

Let’s be honest, shall we? Just take a look at esologs. Sure, you can play as a DPS on other classes and be somewhat effective. But for players like me, who’ve long outgrown basic veteran content, it’s obvious that the Arcanist has essentially become the only real choice for DPS. In hard mode dungeons, other classes as DPS often cause more problems than they solve.

The Arcanist has completely broken the combat standards in ESO. Its AoE damage rivals the strength of single-target spammable abilities, and then there’s Fatecarver, of course. Now that we have the Arcanist, could we maybe bring back longer durations for abilities like Puncturing Sweeps and Radiant Destruction for Templars?

Before the Arcanist was released, nearly all classes were viable, each offering unique buffs and utility. But if I’m being honest, I wouldn’t want the Arcanist to be nerfed. What I’d like is for other classes to feel just as accessible, fun, and unique. I want a couple of flexible slots in my bar and a less APM-intensive damage rotation.

I’ve been trying to return to my Nightblade after two years on an Arcanist, and wow, it’s awful. I’m forced to use all 10 slots, and with the new 10-second buff durations, I’m swapping bars way more often. It feels like playing a chaotic piano, and my DPS is still 15–20% lower than on an Arcanist.

The Arcanist feels like the ultimate experiment for this game—a successful one, I must admit. But what about the other classes, especially the vanilla four? Their skill lines and abilities feel like a random collection at this point. Knowing ZOS, I’m afraid no significant changes are coming, and the Arcanist will remain the default choice for DPS.

This is amusing. Someone else's success in PvE doesn't negate your own, and can only help, not hurt you.

ZhuJiuyin

The various classes in PVE are very unbalanced. 6 Arc dps+2 support dps can maximize the effectiveness and handle most mechanics easily. But if you group 6 NB or Sorc dps +2 support dps, it should be regarded as an anti-human behavior, because it seriously lacks AOE and is very poor in terms of survival and resource recovery. Even when resurrected after death, like Sorc and Warden must spend a lot of time to re-call their pets, otherwise they will not be able to provide enough damage, which makes it difficult for them to quickly re-enter the battle. Death is a huge problem burden for these two classes. After Arc is resurrected, he can quickly return to battle and exert 100% combat effectiveness.

But I agree with what others have said, Arc's performance is fine, the real problem is that other classes perform poorly. When ZOS expressed its desire to weaken AOE damage and weakened skills such as Lightning Splash, Arc had a super powerful laser; when other classes were worrying about resources, Arc had "Cost Determined by Highest Max Resource"; While other classes are complaining that their skill attack ranges have not been adjusted to the new 7-foot rule (Arctic Blast: 6 feet, Lightning Form: 5 feet), all Arc skills except Gibbering Shield are over 7 feet.

Therefore, when it comes to the current PVE problem, other classes have not recovered from the weakening after experiencing the substantial weakening of U35.
At https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/668308/pve-is-at-its-best-balance-ever, U34 has been shown and we can see that the magic and endurance versions of almost all classes are Ability to compete for top 100 in PVE.
Other claseese need more PVE-related BUFFs, especially the ability to increase damage to monsters, which has been applied to NB. I hope to see more underperforming classes gain this ability in the future.

Reginald_leBlem

VLC and vSE are have a lot of arcanists but by no means all, and a quick sampling of vDSR and vRG shows there is still plenty of life in older classes, and even older sets.

ZhuJiuyin

Reginald_leBlem wrote: »

VLC and vSE are have a lot of arcanists but by no means all, and a quick sampling of vDSR and vRG shows there is still plenty of life in older classes, and even older sets.

This is just misleading. When people are discussing HM, you only use Veteran data as evidence, and you don't even dare to use full screenshots, but just claim that classes are balanced. This is absolutely wrong.
Below are the complete screenshots of Dsr HM and RG HM (Top 10)




NB, Warden, and Sorc without magic and stamina versions; necro, Templar, and Arc without magic versions; DK without stamina version

Considering that ESO has 7 classes, and each class has a magic and endurance version, there should be 14 different types of dps appearing on the list, but in fact we can see that in the hm difficulty game, only There are about 4-5 types of dps, and even if the list is changed to the top 100, there are still at least half of the types that cannot compete with others.



EDIT: Corrected language in image

Reginald_leBlem

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Reginald_leBlem wrote: »

VLC and vSE are have a lot of arcanists but by no means all, and a quick sampling of vDSR and vRG shows there is still plenty of life in older classes, and even older sets.

This is just misleading. When people are discussing HM, you only use Veteran data as evidence, and you don't even dare to use full screenshots, but just claim that classes are balanced. This is absolutely wrong.
Below are the complete screenshots of Dsr HM and RG HM (Top 10)



NB, Warden, and Sorc without magic and stamina versions; necro, Templar, and Arc without magic versions; DK without stamina version

Considering that ESO has 7 classes, and each class has a magic and endurance version, there should be 14 different types of dps appearing on the list, but in fact we can see that in the hm difficulty game, only There are about 4-5 types of dps, and even if the list is changed to the top 100, there are still at least half of the types that cannot compete with others.

I did not post the full screenshots because posting user/character names is against TOS and I don't want to risk a ban. You can do you tho.

Reginald_leBlem

Also in your top 20 screenshots, which are basically the same as mine except more risky to post, there are 6 arcanist. Are they over-represented? Sure. But to claim they are the only viable class and ruining PVE is just silly.

ZhuJiuyin

Reginald_leBlem wrote: »

When you only use Veteran and let NB and magick sorc appear in the top 10, it has already produced serious misleading and a huge deviation from the current HM data.
In addition, only sampling the top 10 will result in too few samples. If it is changed to the top 100, it will be easier to see Arc's ability to dominate the end game.
For example:


As long as the sampling is changed to the top 35, Arc accounts for 15, nearly half. Followed by DK12, Necro6, Templar2. If changed to the top 100, there are 53 ARCs, more than half of the rankings.

Reginald_leBlem

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Reginald_leBlem wrote: »

When you only use Veteran and let NB and magick sorc appear in the top 10, it has already produced serious misleading and a huge deviation from the current HM data.
In addition, only sampling the top 10 will result in too few samples. If it is changed to the top 100, it will be easier to see Arc's ability to dominate the end game.
For example:


As long as the sampling is changed to the top 35, Arc accounts for 15, nearly half. Followed by DK12, Necro6, Templar2. If changed to the top 100, there are 53 ARCs, more than half of the rankings.

Both of my screenshots were from hardmode runs.

peacenote

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Arcanist is saving PvE by increasing the number of people who can do it. The old way was not sustainable.

Edit
Other classes need to be brought up to a more modern standard.

I agree. And I really would liketo see buffs to the other class. But not everyone is playing arcanist because it's forced. I enjoy my arcanist very much!

Also, it's not Elder Trial DPS Online. There's a whole game out there! My top used classes are:

-NB Healer (Trials/Dungeons)
-Warden Healer (Trials/Dungeons)
-Necro Tank (Dungeons/IA)
-Arcanist DPS (Trials/Dungeons/IA)
-Templar (serious PvP)
-Sorc (serious PvP/IA/arenas)
-all classes (more casual PvE and PvP)

It would be nice to see more diversity in DPS roles for trials but I really don't feel it's a problem across the whole game.

francesinhalover

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

Let’s be honest, shall we? Just take a look at esologs. Sure, you can play as a DPS on other classes and be somewhat effective. But for players like me, who’ve long outgrown basic veteran content, it’s obvious that the Arcanist has essentially become the only real choice for DPS. In hard mode dungeons, other classes as DPS often cause more problems than they solve.

The Arcanist has completely broken the combat standards in ESO. Its AoE damage rivals the strength of single-target spammable abilities, and then there’s Fatecarver, of course. Now that we have the Arcanist, could we maybe bring back longer durations for abilities like Puncturing Sweeps and Radiant Destruction for Templars?

Before the Arcanist was released, nearly all classes were viable, each offering unique buffs and utility. But if I’m being honest, I wouldn’t want the Arcanist to be nerfed. What I’d like is for other classes to feel just as accessible, fun, and unique. I want a couple of flexible slots in my bar and a less APM-intensive damage rotation.

I’ve been trying to return to my Nightblade after two years on an Arcanist, and wow, it’s awful. I’m forced to use all 10 slots, and with the new 10-second buff durations, I’m swapping bars way more often. It feels like playing a chaotic piano, and my DPS is still 15–20% lower than on an Arcanist.

The Arcanist feels like the ultimate experiment for this game—a successful one, I must admit. But what about the other classes, especially the vanilla four? Their skill lines and abilities feel like a random collection at this point. Knowing ZOS, I’m afraid no significant changes are coming, and the Arcanist will remain the default choice for DPS.

Other classes feel awfull to play, arcanist is the only class where i actually enjoy the combat. But i know it will be nerfed to uselessness. Maybe instead of wishing for arcanist to be bad, we could wish for other classes to be fun to play.

francesinhalover

Not going to lie i started eso in late 2017. I REALLY dislike eso's combat. Arcanist is what makes me like it.

When i first got arcanist i was doing vet dungeons and trials nonstop, i was having fun. Even base game dungeons like wayrest sewers vet i was getting achievements for it.
Because again. i never liked this games combat.

Due to arcanist i got interested in playing healer, I got interested in pvp also.

Not only that i actually bothered playing the game to farm endeavors so i could get a radiant apex for arcanist.

Arcanist is just smooth, rotations are smooth, the animations are good and thanks to the beam i can relax a bit during combat.

Eso isn't eso for me if i can't play arcanist. I have tried necromancer, sorcerer, nightblade, dragon knight. The moment i queue for a normal daily dungeon with them i just sigh. It's like i'm forcing myself to play. Non of this happens with arcanist.

I didn't even like the color green lol. My dream is for necromancer to play like arcanist.

SkaraMinoc

I did Lucent Citadel and I was the only Sorc. There were 7 or 8 Arcanists running Azureblight deleting everything in sight.

alpha_synuclein

What would actually destroy PVE is simplifying other classess to the level of arcanist.

Simple and low APM options are needed for when one cannot do or cannot be bothered with high APM playstyles, but turning the whole game into beammode will draw even more players out.

OtarTheMad wrote: »

This is where I think ESOLogs is deceiving because you can jump on any combo of classes and as long as you got good dps and know the mechanics you can beat hard modes. “Good dps” is subjective too, if you go on YT you’ll see “100k build this” and “120k easy build that” when those results aren’t the average. 25k-35k (non-trials dummy) can get any content done.

The combo of Arcanist strongest playstyle and how the trials and dungeons are made just means that for leaderboard pushers it’s the best way to get a top score, but really might not speak for how the class handles in all other content.

The scorepushers are probably the only group of players where the preference for arcanists is starting to dwindle a bit recently.

And no, regardless of how good you are with mechs, if you're doing 25-35k you will not make any hardmode past Cloudrest. Not unless others in your group compensate for your low numbers.

alpha_synuclein

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

While I agree that the arcanist is great, I think that
I honestly think they should increase player's power in vet content instead of taking it away. Maybe even add some vertical progression to make older vet and hm content more accessible (with some sort of catch-up system, of course).

A lot of older content was done when 35-40k was considered top damage. In todays measures it is very accessible.

Reginald_leBlem

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

While I agree that the arcanist is great, I think that
I honestly think they should increase player's power in vet content instead of taking it away. Maybe even add some vertical progression to make older vet and hm content more accessible (with some sort of catch-up system, of course).

A lot of older content was done when 35-40k was considered top damage. In todays measures it is very accessible.

New hardmodes have dps checks, either hard or soft

OtarTheMad

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

What would actually destroy PVE is simplifying other classess to the level of arcanist.

Simple and low APM options are needed for when one cannot do or cannot be bothered with high APM playstyles, but turning the whole game into beammode will draw even more players out.

OtarTheMad wrote: »

This is where I think ESOLogs is deceiving because you can jump on any combo of classes and as long as you got good dps and know the mechanics you can beat hard modes. “Good dps” is subjective too, if you go on YT you’ll see “100k build this” and “120k easy build that” when those results aren’t the average. 25k-35k (non-trials dummy) can get any content done.

The combo of Arcanist strongest playstyle and how the trials and dungeons are made just means that for leaderboard pushers it’s the best way to get a top score, but really might not speak for how the class handles in all other content.

The scorepushers are probably the only group of players where the preference for arcanists is starting to dwindle a bit recently.

And no, regardless of how good you are with mechs, if you're doing 25-35k you will not make any hardmode past Cloudrest. Not unless others in your group compensate for your low numbers.

If Cloudrest can’t be done with those numbers, which on a trials parse dummy would be about 50k-60kish dps maybe (it’s 2x right?) then that’s on ZOS.

I always use dps numbers from a regular parse dummy, that is usually equal to a vet dungeon boss and is more of the content I do.

alpha_synuclein

Reginald_leBlem wrote: »

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

While I agree that the arcanist is great, I think that
I honestly think they should increase player's power in vet content instead of taking it away. Maybe even add some vertical progression to make older vet and hm content more accessible (with some sort of catch-up system, of course).

A lot of older content was done when 35-40k was considered top damage. In todays measures it is very accessible.

New hardmodes have dps checks, either hard or soft

True, by older content I meant trials like MoL, HoF, AS. Or early dlc dungeons. Those HMs don't need a lot of dps.

Sailor_Palutena

I've joined in 2018, finished all the PVE content except TRIALS released after 2021 when all my guilds abandoned the game. Now I just do quests and 4-men dungeons.

My most special title is Empieress, as it is a memento of the times when I still had a guild to enjoy PVP in Cyrodiil.

alpha_synuclein

OtarTheMad wrote: »

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

What would actually destroy PVE is simplifying other classess to the level of arcanist.

Simple and low APM options are needed for when one cannot do or cannot be bothered with high APM playstyles, but turning the whole game into beammode will draw even more players out.

OtarTheMad wrote: »

This is where I think ESOLogs is deceiving because you can jump on any combo of classes and as long as you got good dps and know the mechanics you can beat hard modes. “Good dps” is subjective too, if you go on YT you’ll see “100k build this” and “120k easy build that” when those results aren’t the average. 25k-35k (non-trials dummy) can get any content done.

The combo of Arcanist strongest playstyle and how the trials and dungeons are made just means that for leaderboard pushers it’s the best way to get a top score, but really might not speak for how the class handles in all other content.

The scorepushers are probably the only group of players where the preference for arcanists is starting to dwindle a bit recently.

And no, regardless of how good you are with mechs, if you're doing 25-35k you will not make any hardmode past Cloudrest. Not unless others in your group compensate for your low numbers.

If Cloudrest can’t be done with those numbers, which on a trials parse dummy would be about 50k-60kish dps maybe (it’s 2x right?) then that’s on ZOS.

I always use dps numbers from a regular parse dummy, that is usually equal to a vet dungeon boss and is more of the content I do.

Well, you can try, but 50-60k on a trial dummy is considered entry level if you're aiming for HMs. At least besides the earliest ones. If you attempt Cloudrest HM with 7 DDs at that level you will have a very heavy and long fight that non-advanced players usually find hard to manage. By operating on the lowest possible damage treshold you will make every fight harder that it needs to be. And not just for yourself.

Not to mention that latest HMs have hard damage checks. Starting from Sunspire HM, when you need minimum 40k (unbuffed, so on 3 mil dummy) for portal. If you fail it's a group wipe.

OtarTheMad

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

What would actually destroy PVE is simplifying other classess to the level of arcanist.

Simple and low APM options are needed for when one cannot do or cannot be bothered with high APM playstyles, but turning the whole game into beammode will draw even more players out.

OtarTheMad wrote: »

This is where I think ESOLogs is deceiving because you can jump on any combo of classes and as long as you got good dps and know the mechanics you can beat hard modes. “Good dps” is subjective too, if you go on YT you’ll see “100k build this” and “120k easy build that” when those results aren’t the average. 25k-35k (non-trials dummy) can get any content done.

The combo of Arcanist strongest playstyle and how the trials and dungeons are made just means that for leaderboard pushers it’s the best way to get a top score, but really might not speak for how the class handles in all other content.

The scorepushers are probably the only group of players where the preference for arcanists is starting to dwindle a bit recently.

And no, regardless of how good you are with mechs, if you're doing 25-35k you will not make any hardmode past Cloudrest. Not unless others in your group compensate for your low numbers.

If Cloudrest can’t be done with those numbers, which on a trials parse dummy would be about 50k-60kish dps maybe (it’s 2x right?) then that’s on ZOS.

I always use dps numbers from a regular parse dummy, that is usually equal to a vet dungeon boss and is more of the content I do.

Well, you can try, but 50-60k on a trial dummy is considered entry level if you're aiming for HMs. At least besides the earliest ones. If you attempt Cloudrest HM with 7 DDs at that level you will have a very heavy and long fight that non-advanced players usually find hard to manage. By operating on the lowest possible damage treshold you will make every fight harder that it needs to be. And not just for yourself.

Not to mention that latest HMs have hard damage checks. Starting from Sunspire HM, when you need minimum 40k (unbuffed, so on 3 mil dummy) for portal. If you fail it's a group wipe.

I should have specified vet but not HM because I see that as for leaderboard and achievement hunting players. To me completing content means you did it normal and vet, any other mode and achievement after that is just icing. I just didn’t want to make my post long like I have before lol.

That’s on me, my bad.

alpha_synuclein

OtarTheMad wrote: »

I should have specified vet but not HM because I see that as for leaderboard and achievement hunting players. To me completing content means you did it normal and vet, any other mode and achievement after that is just icing. I just didn’t want to make my post long like I have before lol.

That’s on me, my bad.

On vet you can stretch further, but with whole group of 50-60s DDs and supports on similar level you might struggle in RG and later as well.

OtarTheMad

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

I should have specified vet but not HM because I see that as for leaderboard and achievement hunting players. To me completing content means you did it normal and vet, any other mode and achievement after that is just icing. I just didn’t want to make my post long like I have before lol.

That’s on me, my bad.

On vet you can stretch further, but with whole group of 50-60s DDs and supports on similar level you might struggle in RG and later as well.

Well, I only do trials as gear runs. I’m into the other content more than trials personally. Good to know tho for if I ever do competitive trials but I don’t see myself as having time with 2 jobs.

Desiato

What's the solution though?

The problem with Arcanist isn't necessarily that it's OP, it's that it's so ridiculously easy to play. Sustain is a non-factor, ezdmg, ezcleave and ezsurvive. It's the perfect class for your squirrelly buddy who talks all raid and is never in the right spot.

They're not going to take this crutch away. The ZOS solution would probably be to make every class as easy to play as the Arcanist. I would call that throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

I think PVE balance is excellent overall. Even if it was perfectly balanced, a meta would still emerge and some classes would still be less often considered for some roles. We should be careful about what we wish for.

OtarTheMad

Desiato wrote: »

What's the solution though?

The problem with Arcanist isn't necessarily that it's OP, it's that it's so ridiculously easy to play. Sustain is a non-factor, ezdmg, ezcleave and ezsurvive. It's the perfect class for your squirrelly buddy who talks all raid and is never in the right spot.

They're not going to take this crutch away. The ZOS solution would probably be to make every class as easy to play as the Arcanist. I would call that throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

That’s a good question indeed. I don’t even think Arcanist being easy in parts of the game is a problem. Even Arcanists ease of play does not translate in every game mode. In PvP, they are just another class among the others. Arc being easier shouldn’t be changed.

Maybe make NPC’s smarter somehow? Thats a huge task but trying to line up and time crux with the beam in PvP is harder because players aren’t dumb enough to stand there and just let you do it.

To me, if you get every class a unique and fun style, where all the class abilities are viable and eliminate statements like “that ability is trash”… I think that is a win and a good balance.

You want a more complicated rotation and be sneaky- nb
You want to control the dead and souls- necro
You want to be one with animals or be an ice mage- warden
You want to be a knight that can stand toe to toe with dragons- DK
You want to be a knight of the Gods- templar
You want mobility and use conjuration to hurt and confuse- sorc
Etc

Just strengthen these, do what you did with Sorc and make it so all abilities are attractive for certain playstyles and you got a good path I think.

As of right now, in my opinion, Necro ain’t fun and has too many abilities that are still not slottable or fun to use, same with Templar. I feel Warden has a bit of an identity crisis, maybe the animal companions skill line should do frost damage and not magic… idk. The classes that fit my idea are DK, Sorc, NB and Arcanist. They may need minor tweaks but are in a good spot to me.

Joy_Division

Desiato wrote: »

What's the solution though?

The problem with Arcanist isn't necessarily that it's OP, it's that it's so ridiculously easy to play. Sustain is a non-factor, ezdmg, ezcleave and ezsurvive. It's the perfect class for your squirrelly buddy who talks all raid and is never in the right spot.

They're not going to take this crutch away. The ZOS solution would probably be to make every class as easy to play as the Arcanist. I would call that throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

I think PVE balance is excellent overall. Even if it was perfectly balanced, a meta would still emerge and some classes would still be less often considered for some roles. We should be careful about what we wish for.

Probably to do what every other RPG has always done: present different classes with different strengths and weakness while confronting players with different types of encounters so that the best raid comps would always be a variety of different classes, rather than which just happens to be loading up on the one that parses highest on a target dummy.

Non Arcanists play very similarly (excepting Necros using the new support Banner skill that make them corpse exploders). For non Arcanists, efficient DPS follows the same pattern with the same sorts of skills (that even have the same resources and standardized to do the same damage). We see the meta 4 to 5 skills, there's 1 short timer, 1 longer timer, and a bunch of 20 second timers. If you've mastered 1, you've basically mastered the others. There isn't any major function difference. The same is true for group PvP: all the halfway decent groups have Wardens as their DDs because it's the only class in the game with that can reliably put delayed burst AoE damage at a specific target. The other 6 classes offer nothing that makes them desirable as damage dealers. Just have the lead as a NB to fear after RoA pulls and that's all that is needed.

Desiato

Joy_Division wrote: »

Non Arcanists play very similarly (or at least Necros did before the "support" skill turned them in corpse exploders). Efficient DPS follows the same pattern with the same sorts of skills (that even have the same resources and standardized to do the same damage).

Do you play vet trials? As a damage dealer, Arcanist plays completely differently than other classes. It has a much simpler rotation in almost all cases and is highly survivable because flail heals and pragmatic includes a damage shield.

I can beat my Arcanist in single target damage with my DK by a good margin, but not only do I need to play much more focused, but my entire group does as well. Arcanist makes it easy to dps through the chaos of a disorganized group -- which has become the norm.

At the same time, trial Arcanist is so braindead to play, I actually feel nauseated when I think about doing it. I pretty much quit the trial scene because I didn't want to play Arcanist anymore and my path forward would have required it at times.

Joy_Division

Desiato wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Non Arcanists play very similarly (or at least Necros did before the "support" skill turned them in corpse exploders). Efficient DPS follows the same pattern with the same sorts of skills (that even have the same resources and standardized to do the same damage).

Do you play vet trials? As a damage dealer, Arcanist plays completely differently than other classes. It has a much simpler rotation in almost all cases and is highly survivable because flail heals and pragmatic includes a damage shield.

I can beat my Arcanist in single target damage with my DK by a good margin, but not only do I need to play much more focused, but my entire group does as well. Arcanist makes it easy to dps through the chaos of a disorganized group -- which has become the norm.

At the same time, trial Arcanist is so braindead to play, I actually feel nauseated when I think about doing it. I pretty much quit the trial scene because I didn't want to play Arcanist anymore and my path forward would have required it at times.

Yes, which is why I said "Non Arcanists" play similarly. Arcs are simplified and much friendlier to average players.

So, I agree Arcanists are common because they have a high floor, as opposed to the highest ceiling. Unless someone is willing to get the right gear and perfect a more difficult rotation, there isn't much of a point to play anything else as it's a lot of effort and not much else brought to the table. People who push scores will want that extra DPS. People who are just looking for completes will want the high floor.