The Arcanist is destroying PvE

Parasaurolophus

Let’s be honest, shall we? Just take a look at esologs. Sure, you can play as a DPS on other classes and be somewhat effective. But for players like me, who’ve long outgrown basic veteran content, it’s obvious that the Arcanist has essentially become the only real choice for DPS. In hard mode dungeons, other classes as DPS often cause more problems than they solve.

The Arcanist has completely broken the combat standards in ESO. Its AoE damage rivals the strength of single-target spammable abilities, and then there’s Fatecarver, of course. Now that we have the Arcanist, could we maybe bring back longer durations for abilities like Puncturing Sweeps and Radiant Destruction for Templars?

Before the Arcanist was released, nearly all classes were viable, each offering unique buffs and utility. But if I’m being honest, I wouldn’t want the Arcanist to be nerfed. What I’d like is for other classes to feel just as accessible, fun, and unique. I want a couple of flexible slots in my bar and a less APM-intensive damage rotation.

I’ve been trying to return to my Nightblade after two years on an Arcanist, and wow, it’s awful. I’m forced to use all 10 slots, and with the new 10-second buff durations, I’m swapping bars way more often. It feels like playing a chaotic piano, and my DPS is still 15–20% lower than on an Arcanist.

The Arcanist feels like the ultimate experiment for this game—a successful one, I must admit. But what about the other classes, especially the vanilla four? Their skill lines and abilities feel like a random collection at this point. Knowing ZOS, I’m afraid no significant changes are coming, and the Arcanist will remain the default choice for DPS.

Techwolf_Lupindo

Several prog groups now required an arc and will ban anything else now a days. Its that bad I can't play my main DK.

kargen27

All classes are still viable just like they were before Arcanist was released. They just are not desired by players wanting to get on leader boards and some progression groups trying hard mode and/or trifectas. Plenty of groups still allow you to bring whatever you want and you can complete the content with those groups.

Gabriel_H

Techwolf_Lupindo wrote: »

Several prog groups now required an arc and will ban anything else now a days. Its that bad I can't play my main DK.

Less sweaty prog groups & guilds are available ...!

Lykeion

In U40 I would agree with your point, but in U44 I'd have to say Arcanist already returned to a saner position. It performs well in most scenarios, but in a well organized group Necro will have a better AoE than Arc does, and Temp's ST damage is far superior. In fact U44 has been the most PvE class balanced release in the last two years imo, like, even NB has somehow regained its competitiveness as a DPS. The only class that might be left behind might be sorc, and I hope it gets some favor in the next update

moderatelyfatman

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

Let’s be honest, shall we? Just take a look at esologs. Sure, you can play as a DPS on other classes and be somewhat effective. But for players like me, who’ve long outgrown basic veteran content, it’s obvious that the Arcanist has essentially become the only real choice for DPS. In hard mode dungeons, other classes as DPS often cause more problems than they solve.

The Arcanist has completely broken the combat standards in ESO. Its AoE damage rivals the strength of single-target spammable abilities, and then there’s Fatecarver, of course. Now that we have the Arcanist, could we maybe bring back longer durations for abilities like Puncturing Sweeps and Radiant Destruction for Templars?

Before the Arcanist was released, nearly all classes were viable, each offering unique buffs and utility. But if I’m being honest, I wouldn’t want the Arcanist to be nerfed. What I’d like is for other classes to feel just as accessible, fun, and unique. I want a couple of flexible slots in my bar and a less APM-intensive damage rotation.

I’ve been trying to return to my Nightblade after two years on an Arcanist, and wow, it’s awful. I’m forced to use all 10 slots, and with the new 10-second buff durations, I’m swapping bars way more often. It feels like playing a chaotic piano, and my DPS is still 15–20% lower than on an Arcanist.

The Arcanist feels like the ultimate experiment for this game—a successful one, I must admit. But what about the other classes, especially the vanilla four? Their skill lines and abilities feel like a random collection at this point. Knowing ZOS, I’m afraid no significant changes are coming, and the Arcanist will remain the default choice for DPS.

You got 15-20% less dps than an arcanist on your nightblade.
Dude, what's your secret?

BradTheNord

I mean the heavy sorc is even more busted aslong as you have a capable tank you can 3 heavy sorc comp any four man content in the game you can even get things like DB & TTT with a heavy sorc comp. Everything has its time until the next busted thing comes along.

Ishtarknows

Techwolf_Lupindo wrote: »

Several prog groups now required an arc and will ban anything else now a days. Its that bad I can't play my main DK.

The team doesn't need a ZenKosh DK? Most teams do.

tsaescishoeshiner

I hope they add class mechanics that buff other classes to keep up with arcanists in PvE. Crux has its downsides (gameplay can be repetitive because it needs more spenders, for example), but it's powerful and rewarding to use.

Necro corpses are the next closest thing, but they feel more like a required resource that occasionally falls through.

Also, the top scorepushing trial groups don't have much to do with the typical vet DLC dungeon group. Arcanists have advantages there, too, but so does every other class in its own way.

I'm happy we play an MMO where classes don't become actually unviable for certain patches, but there could be more balance and buffs for older classes.

Taril

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

Crux has its downsides (gameplay can be repetitive because it needs more spenders, for example), but it's powerful and rewarding to use.

More spenders won't alleviate that. Just look at how Stam is the only type of Arcanist BECAUSE Mag has Abyssal Impact morph into an additional Crux spender. For which the loss of a Fatecarver cast is not made up for by the additional damage increase debuff (Since it's not only the damage of the Fatecarver cast itself, but also then the additional time to regain Crux)

As is the nature of unrestricted resources (I.e. No cooldowns), you simply want to spend all your resources on the best available ability. Which leads to more repetitive gameplay (Especially with no DoTs/buffs/debuffs to juggle with said resources)

Throw into the mix the fact that the majority of Arc's damage is Fatecarver (With Crux generator skills not being used anymore since Banner provides all the Crux you need. Cephilarch's Flail is simply there for the Ink debuff) and you get even more focus on spamming that one skill and using all available Crux on that one skill.

HatchetHaro

Keep survivorship bias in mind; ESO Logs is a site that is used mostly by the most hardcore of raid groups, and the top parses are all done with top performance from the supports as well that can leverage the Arcanists' unique ability to uber-stack Azureblight on tight groups of enemies.

Honestly, Arcanists don't really have good single-target damage. They excel at stacked AoE fights while wearing Azureblight, and Pragmatic Fatecarver offers a lot of defense without sacrificing much damage, but when it comes to pure single-target damage, they actually fall behind other classes like Templars and Dragonknights.

I currently hold the top public Dragonknight boss parse on Count Ryelaz and Zilyesset (a stacked AoE fight), second only to an Arcanist on the same team by 2.4k dps (UPDATE: I beat them all), and I'm a Stamina Argonian applying Stagger and providing my own Major Brutality buff; imagine what I can do on a Magicka (ew) Dunmer (ew) spamming Burning Talons (yaaas).

No contest, though, when it comes to the skill floor; Arcanists are so easy to play well. They're also super nice for my carpal tunnel since I can do a quick stretch in between beams.

Cooperharley

While I agree that the arcanist is great, I think that other classes need to be buffed rather than just bringing a sledgehammer to the arcanist. We don’t want to run into a situation like necro again where everyone was using them on launch and now (albeit better) they’re not nearly as prevalent.

This notion in gaming where you nerf the best “thing” - whether that be class or set or whatever isn’t a good idea. It’s always better imo to look at what’s underperforming and bring it up.

Ask questions like “what does Arcanist excel at and how can we bring other classes up to par?”

ZOS for a while has just nerfed the best thing and now we’re in the set situation we’re in where the META has been very stale and toxic for a while because they’re simply aren’t many options. They need to BUFF underperforming stuff to bring other things into the discussion/equation.

Taril

Cooperharley wrote: »

This notion in gaming where you nerf the best “thing” - whether that be class or set or whatever isn’t a good idea. It’s always better imo to look at what’s underperforming and bring it up.

Absolutes are never ideal.

Buffing leads to powercreep just as nerfing can lead to "Whack-a-mole" design. Neither are good.

Proper balance requires use of both buffs and nerfs to tune things towards a median point. Where overperformers get toned down, while underdogs get propped up.

It's all about finding the right... Balance.

Vulkunne

The problem is this, the Arcanist represents the best of what thinking exists today. They understand what is needed and what both they/us would like to see so the Arcanist was a success.

And I must admit, I really don't look forward to nerfs for it (like where they took away the execute damage for example) because its just so damn good as it is. I would urge the devs to not bolt Arcanist to the floor with nerfs but instead, think about ways to improve the other classes -first-.

And especially NB man, please put the cloak back to the way it was. Stamblade is just really not even worth trying to play right now. Bur yeah Arcanist is gold, and I don't think it should get placed in concrete galoshes because of that fact. Just take some of that same spirit and put it in every class too. It won't be easy, but other classes could use the Arcanist touch as well.

PrincessOfThieves

Cooperharley wrote: »

While I agree that the arcanist is great, I think that other classes need to be buffed rather than just bringing a sledgehammer to the arcanist. We don’t want to run into a situation like necro again where everyone was using them on launch and now (albeit better) they’re not nearly as prevalent.

This notion in gaming where you nerf the best “thing” - whether that be class or set or whatever isn’t a good idea. It’s always better imo to look at what’s underperforming and bring it up.

Ask questions like “what does Arcanist excel at and how can we bring other classes up to par?”

ZOS for a while has just nerfed the best thing and now we’re in the set situation we’re in where the META has been very stale and toxic for a while because they’re simply aren’t many options. They need to BUFF underperforming stuff to bring other things into the discussion/equation.

I agree!
The worst thing about nerfs is that the way ZOS tends to do that makes people lose their progress (like in that infamous lost depths update). Yes, arcanist is over-represented rn, but if they significantly nerf it, the groups that use arcs to do vet stuff are screwed. Specifically mid-tier groups, because the most hardcore players will of course adapt.
I honestly think they should increase player's power in vet content instead of taking it away. Maybe even add some vertical progression to make older vet and hm content more accessible (with some sort of catch-up system, of course).

Orbital78

Arcanists feel like they are in a good spot now, but a few classes could def use some love. I'd like to see heavy attack builds a little more viable again for harder content.

This is an open guild run of vDSR twins fight (the DK was one of the more skilled players running Azure/Alkosh or he would have been top):


I was in the middle on a vamp heavy attack nightblade (I am enjoying the invis change on that char). A skilled player is going to rock out good dps on any class almost. DK and Necro, and even Templars seem to be in a pretty decent spot, out dpsing Arcs (esp Azureblight/Corpseburster) if they are better with the class. Even on that above fight I was higher than a few of the Arcs just because I farmed vDSR for a full chapter and then some. I could do considerably better on an Arcanist, but heavy attacks were hit pretty hard and not adjusted very well IMO.

colossalvoids

"Accessibility something something" is probably why the things are as they are. If that's the only way for the current team to save at least some class identity that's left from what they were originally designed I'd take the green beam trial meta, it's personally not worth reducing other class any more to some new hip vision that changes as fast as the wind blows in a different direction because someone can't press some button sequence and thinking that's a legit accessibility issue.

ellmarie

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

Cooperharley wrote: »

While I agree that the arcanist is great, I think that other classes need to be buffed rather than just bringing a sledgehammer to the arcanist. We don’t want to run into a situation like necro again where everyone was using them on launch and now (albeit better) they’re not nearly as prevalent.

This notion in gaming where you nerf the best “thing” - whether that be class or set or whatever isn’t a good idea. It’s always better imo to look at what’s underperforming and bring it up.

Ask questions like “what does Arcanist excel at and how can we bring other classes up to par?”

ZOS for a while has just nerfed the best thing and now we’re in the set situation we’re in where the META has been very stale and toxic for a while because they’re simply aren’t many options. They need to BUFF underperforming stuff to bring other things into the discussion/equation.

I agree!
The worst thing about nerfs is that the way ZOS tends to do that makes people lose their progress (like in that infamous lost depths update). Yes, arcanist is over-represented rn, but if they significantly nerf it, the groups that use arcs to do vet stuff are screwed. Specifically mid-tier groups, because the most hardcore players will of course adapt.
I honestly think they should increase player's power in vet content instead of taking it away. Maybe even add some vertical progression to make older vet and hm content more accessible (with some sort of catch-up system, of course).

Totally this. I play solo, don't do alot of dungeons, stick to mostly overland and I love my Arcanist, she is powerful. But I got good stats on just about all my characters. I don't want them to touch it so I have to work harder. This has happened when people have raised the question of how buffed a certain class is, then it gets destroyed.

BradTheNord

Cooperharley wrote: »

While I agree that the arcanist is great, I think that other classes need to be buffed rather than just bringing a sledgehammer to the arcanist. We don’t want to run into a situation like necro again where everyone was using them on launch and now (albeit better) they’re not nearly as prevalent.

This notion in gaming where you nerf the best “thing” - whether that be class or set or whatever isn’t a good idea. It’s always better imo to look at what’s underperforming and bring it up.

Ask questions like “what does Arcanist excel at and how can we bring other classes up to par?”

ZOS for a while has just nerfed the best thing and now we’re in the set situation we’re in where the META has been very stale and toxic for a while because they’re simply aren’t many options. They need to BUFF underperforming stuff to bring other things into the discussion/equation.

Nice to see you around still but I thought you quit ?

sarahthes

Vulkunne wrote: »

The problem is this, the Arcanist represents the best of what thinking exists today. They understand what is needed and what both they/us would like to see so the Arcanist was a success.

And I must admit, I really don't look forward to nerfs for it (like where they took away the execute damage for example) because its just so damn good as it is. I would urge the devs to not bolt Arcanist to the floor with nerfs but instead, think about ways to improve the other classes -first-.

And especially NB man, please put the cloak back to the way it was. Stamblade is just really not even worth trying to play right now. Bur yeah Arcanist is gold, and I don't think it should get placed in concrete galoshes because of that fact. Just take some of that same spirit and put it in every class too. It won't be easy, but other classes could use the Arcanist touch as well.

Significantly nerfing arcanist would be as harmful for endgame as Update 35 was (even though I'd rather play dk or even sorc vs arcanist), because a lot of the newer endgame players haven't played any other classes.

OtarTheMad

It’s just one small part of the game that this is the case. It’s only leaderboard chasing, sweaty trial groups that do this.

However, in every other aspect of the game any class, playstyle and race is viable. You can do normal dungeons, vet dungeons, vet dungeons HM, all overland, non sweaty normal and Vet trials, arenas, BGs, Cyrodiil, dueling, questing with anything you want.

Also, for DPS 25-35k (non-trial dummy dps) can get everything in the game done.

ESOLogs and even some YouTube videos paint a certain picture about ESO and endgame and it just makes players think they “need” certain things for all content.

Nerfing Arcanist just kills it in other aspects of the game honestly. The class is fine.

sarahthes

OtarTheMad wrote: »

It’s just one small part of the game that this is the case. It’s only leaderboard chasing, sweaty trial groups that do this.

However, in every other aspect of the game any class, playstyle and race is viable. You can do normal dungeons, vet dungeons, vet dungeons HM, all overland, non sweaty normal and Vet trials, arenas, BGs, Cyrodiil, dueling, questing with anything you want.

Also, for DPS 25-35k (non-trial dummy dps) can get everything in the game done.

ESOLogs and even some YouTube videos paint a certain picture about ESO and endgame and it just makes players think they “need” certain things for all content.

Nerfing Arcanist just kills it in other aspects of the game honestly. The class is fine.

Even among sweaty players, which class you bring is highly dependent on the trial and goals. Only Lucent and Sanity's Edge "require" arcanists to be completed.

spartaxoxo

Arcanist is saving PvE by increasing the number of people who can do it. The old way was not sustainable.

Edit
Other classes need to be brought up to a more modern standard.

ssewallb14_ESO

Thing with Arc is it scales well with all levels of skill/difficulty/organization, while only at the very top level does necro, plar, and blade become competitive as a pure DPS.

I'm pretty sure corpsebuster will get the ZoS balance treatment sooner rather than later too.

virtus753

Even in cases where I can make my templar do more damage than an arcanist (e.g. Yaseyla HM), I still feel selfish for bringing a character that has 25% less health and doesn’t offer the AoE, range (especially AoE range), or survivability that Arcanist does. But at least my main has a place in those situations where beam can carry.

In HM/tri trials or dungeons where having all the power worth mentioning packed into a single-target execute is not as useful, I can’t justify the greater risk for no upside other than that I get to play on my main. It isn’t a team-first attitude to bring the class I most love to play when the benefits are what I personally get out of it rather than what the group does. They deserve players that bring what’s best for the group, which in most cases (especially now we’re onto LC) means arc. Even if the damage is comparable depending on the fight, damage is far from the whole story. The complete package (including reach and survivability) is generally better enough that in many cases it is comparatively detrimental to the group to bring anything else. And when you’re playing with other players trying to complete difficult content, especially when it requires keeping everyone alive, it is not just a question of whether you can do the same damage. It’s whether what you’re bringing is in toto best for the group. Taking unnecessary risks and limiting range in favor of playing what we like is not it, but that’s the position I’m in for my trial and dungeon tri groups.

OtarTheMad

sarahthes wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

It’s just one small part of the game that this is the case. It’s only leaderboard chasing, sweaty trial groups that do this.

However, in every other aspect of the game any class, playstyle and race is viable. You can do normal dungeons, vet dungeons, vet dungeons HM, all overland, non sweaty normal and Vet trials, arenas, BGs, Cyrodiil, dueling, questing with anything you want.

Also, for DPS 25-35k (non-trial dummy dps) can get everything in the game done.

ESOLogs and even some YouTube videos paint a certain picture about ESO and endgame and it just makes players think they “need” certain things for all content.

Nerfing Arcanist just kills it in other aspects of the game honestly. The class is fine.

Even among sweaty players, which class you bring is highly dependent on the trial and goals. Only Lucent and Sanity's Edge "require" arcanists to be completed.

Oh okay, well that makes it an even smaller group of players in the game.

Thanks for sharing that.

BlueRaven

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Arcanist is saving PvE by increasing the number of people who can do it. The old way was not sustainable.

Edit
Other classes need to be brought up to a more modern standard.

This.

Arc is not over performing. Other classes are under performing.

sarahthes

No class is underperforming. Some just require more skill to play at a high level.

Recent

This is one of the reasons why I am a solo player...so I don't get affected by such things as you mention here.
I do enjoy hm dungeons sometimes but I don't focus on that. I don't expect much anymore...my game has come down to dailies and events.

I was in a trial guild and I was about to join one of their trial groups when I saw that all their 7 dps were stamina arcanists with 100k parses. I actually felt embarrassed for them. I was going to join on my sorc but decided not to and left this guild.
I play all classes just cos I enjoy diversity and yes I notice the difference in damage that each does and compared to my stamina arcanist they are all potatoes

Cooperharley

BradTheNord wrote: »

Cooperharley wrote: »

While I agree that the arcanist is great, I think that other classes need to be buffed rather than just bringing a sledgehammer to the arcanist. We don’t want to run into a situation like necro again where everyone was using them on launch and now (albeit better) they’re not nearly as prevalent.

This notion in gaming where you nerf the best “thing” - whether that be class or set or whatever isn’t a good idea. It’s always better imo to look at what’s underperforming and bring it up.

Ask questions like “what does Arcanist excel at and how can we bring other classes up to par?”

ZOS for a while has just nerfed the best thing and now we’re in the set situation we’re in where the META has been very stale and toxic for a while because they’re simply aren’t many options. They need to BUFF underperforming stuff to bring other things into the discussion/equation.

Nice to see you around still but I thought you quit ?

Still care don’t play very much anymore. I want the game to succeed and will always root for it, even if it feels like the game’s devs aren’t.

Cooperharley

sarahthes wrote: »

No class is underperforming. Some just require more skill to play at a high level.

Dragonknight healers and Templar tanks must just take more skill then no?

There are classes that inherently underperform due to a lacking tool kit plain and simple. Sure, there’s a skill ceiling with certain classes that isn’t nearly as high with others, but to say “no class is underperforming” is absolutely wild