The Arcanist is destroying PvE

Elvenheart

It sounds like I need to finally give Azureblight a try on my Arcanist. I thought they recently nerfed it so it wouldn’t be good anymore, but it sounds like it’s still fun from these posts.

Orbital78

Desiato wrote: »

The problem with Arcanist isn't necessarily that it's OP, it's that it's so ridiculously easy to play. Sustain is a non-factor, ezdmg, ezcleave and ezsurvive. It's the perfect class for your squirrelly buddy who talks all raid and is never in the right spot.

Dunno, I have to use sustain food most of the time with mine. Even more so with the banner, and ez survive? Mine feels squishy as heck compared to my Sorcerer after the nerfs to the damage shields. easy damage and cleave, yes agreed. It is my new favorite for farming since heavy attack splash was changed to no kill evenly anymore. AoE farming on heavy doesn't feel clean or easy anymore. Sure you can do it it just takes longer.

valenwood_vegan

Personally, I would probably restate the problem as:

"Overly-nerfed, outdated, poorly organized classes are destroying pve".

Soarora

Desiato wrote: »

What's the solution though?

The problem with Arcanist isn't necessarily that it's OP, it's that it's so ridiculously easy to play. Sustain is a non-factor, ezdmg, ezcleave and ezsurvive. It's the perfect class for your squirrelly buddy who talks all raid and is never in the right spot.

They're not going to take this crutch away. The ZOS solution would probably be to make every class as easy to play as the Arcanist. I would call that throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

I think PVE balance is excellent overall. Even if it was perfectly balanced, a meta would still emerge and some classes would still be less often considered for some roles. We should be careful about what we wish for.

The ease is part of it, but what is also a big factor is that Arcanist's biggest damaging ability is a large AoE. While arcanist doesn't lead in single-target, ZOS loves their adds. A lot of fights focus more on AoE than single target. The lack of cleave has been a complaint for nightblades before arcanist came around, and now arcanist beats all because no other class has the cleave that it does.

Vonnegut2506

I would argue that complaining about classes and skills on the forums being overpowered is destroying PvE and PvP more than any class or skill ever could.

krnvcgerb

Perhaps other professions can be slightly enhanced?

Orbital78

If people are gravitating towards certain builds and enjoying them, perhaps that is somewhere ZoS can learn from and enhance combat in general rather than gutting everything and forcing players to play how they want, but in this one little way. I am still waiting for half of those hundreds of sets in the game to ever really be used.

BananaBender

The main problem with arcanist is how insanely good it is in less organized groups, even in majority of trifecta groups. Arcanist gets so many important stats for free, while sacrificing nothing. Right now arcanist has no weakness in PvE. It gets free crit damage, free penetration, great range, its highest damaging skill that's an AoE that procs every 0.3s making it insanely good with Azureblight and you can also get a massive shield on it, cheap and really strong ultimate that you can move for free for some reason (DK needs a morph for that one), heal on your 'spammable', really good sustain from passives and the fact that beam is so cheap, the best synergy with banner due to the class mastery, more flex slots for support skills than any other class without sacrificing your damage (which happens to include 20 second minor vuln and brittle and minor courage that used to be exclusively from sets).
All of these things make arcanist by far the best choice for anyone who is playing in groups with inconsistent buff uptimes, and it's not even close. On top of all it's also the easiest class to play.

There are bunch of things that I think should have never been given to arcanists in the first place, but now over a year later it's too late to remove them. People have gotten used to the power and ease arcanist gives and it would do more harm than good to now sledgehammer the class, even if I personally hate playing it and will find every excuse to play something else. It would set back pretty much all the progs and that would just make people more displeased, and potentially make them quit the game/raiding. The big changes should have happened before a stable meta around arcanist had time to form, but now it's too late. It seems that ZoS has decided that this is the baseline for what a class should be able to do, now the other classes should be brought to its level, by actually addressing their weaknesses (not turning a charge into a taunt or making the abomination that is Gravelord's Sacrifice), because right now they are competing against a class that has none.

To comment on the posts about top groups playing different classes other than arcanist: They will play any class that has the highest ceiling. Right now it's close between necro, arcanist and DK, but that's where the problem lies. The fact that arcanist can be the easiest and even close to being the best class is just ridiculous. Players should be rewarded for mastering the combat and playing well, right now they are not. You can parse out of your mind on a necro and be 3% better than you could be by looking at the boss' general direction as an arcanist. There are also a bunch of players in top groups that refuse to play arcanist, because they are already sick of it, not because some other class is better in certain scenario.

moderatelyfatman

I find it hiliarious that people who argue that other classes do fairly well against the arcanist have not mentioned Warden.
Not one peep. And stamwarden is the ugly sibling morph which is the ugly sibling of all dps builds.

Orbital78

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

I find it hiliarious that people who argue that other classes do fairly well against the arcanist have not mentioned Warden.
Not one peep. And stamwarden is the ugly sibling morph which is the ugly sibling of all dps builds.

Ansuul vSE fight, same Alkosh/Azure DK in previous post. She does very well as stam warden, I personally never got very good with them though.


Warden's are much less common in the DPS role as of late, tons of healers though. They are probably slightly less common then NB and Necros in most of my guild runs.

alpha_synuclein

Soarora wrote: »

The ease is part of it, but what is also a big factor is that Arcanist's biggest damaging ability is a large AoE. While arcanist doesn't lead in single-target, ZOS loves their adds. A lot of fights focus more on AoE than single target. The lack of cleave has been a complaint for nightblades before arcanist came around, and now arcanist beats all because no other class has the cleave that it does.

This. Almost every boss now requires significant amount of cleave and trash packs are being ramped up to quite ridiculous levels in the newer trials especially. To the point where choosing anything with low-ish cleave puts you in disadvantage. And then we got a class with massive AoE, DoT, deeps and shield in one skill that you barely even need to aim with...

alpha_synuclein

BananaBender wrote: »

The main problem with arcanist is how insanely good it is in less organized groups, even in majority of trifecta groups. Arcanist gets so many important stats for free, while sacrificing nothing. Right now arcanist has no weakness in PvE. It gets free crit damage, free penetration, great range, its highest damaging skill that's an AoE that procs every 0.3s making it insanely good with Azureblight and you can also get a massive shield on it, cheap and really strong ultimate that you can move for free for some reason (DK needs a morph for that one), heal on your 'spammable', really good sustain from passives and the fact that beam is so cheap, the best synergy with banner due to the class mastery, more flex slots for support skills than any other class without sacrificing your damage (which happens to include 20 second minor vuln and brittle and minor courage that used to be exclusively from sets).
All of these things make arcanist by far the best choice for anyone who is playing in groups with inconsistent buff uptimes, and it's not even close. On top of all it's also the easiest class to play.

There are bunch of things that I think should have never been given to arcanists in the first place, but now over a year later it's too late to remove them. People have gotten used to the power and ease arcanist gives and it would do more harm than good to now sledgehammer the class, even if I personally hate playing it and will find every excuse to play something else. It would set back pretty much all the progs and that would just make people more displeased, and potentially make them quit the game/raiding. The big changes should have happened before a stable meta around arcanist had time to form, but now it's too late. It seems that ZoS has decided that this is the baseline for what a class should be able to do, now the other classes should be brought to its level, by actually addressing their weaknesses (not turning a charge into a taunt or making the abomination that is Gravelord's Sacrifice), because right now they are competing against a class that has none.

To comment on the posts about top groups playing different classes other than arcanist: They will play any class that has the highest ceiling. Right now it's close between necro, arcanist and DK, but that's where the problem lies. The fact that arcanist can be the easiest and even close to being the best class is just ridiculous. Players should be rewarded for mastering the combat and playing well, right now they are not. You can parse out of your mind on a necro and be 3% better than you could be by looking at the boss' general direction as an arcanist. There are also a bunch of players in top groups that refuse to play arcanist, because they are already sick of it, not because some other class is better in certain scenario.

This is really the biggest issue with arca. If you're playing any other class you need to be much better player to outdamage an average beamer. And that's often assuming that you are getting buffed and your tanks can control the fight reasonably well.

Instead of promoting group play and coordination we got an ultimate tool for yoloing.

moderatelyfatman

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

The main problem with arcanist is how insanely good it is in less organized groups, even in majority of trifecta groups. Arcanist gets so many important stats for free, while sacrificing nothing. Right now arcanist has no weakness in PvE. It gets free crit damage, free penetration, great range, its highest damaging skill that's an AoE that procs every 0.3s making it insanely good with Azureblight and you can also get a massive shield on it, cheap and really strong ultimate that you can move for free for some reason (DK needs a morph for that one), heal on your 'spammable', really good sustain from passives and the fact that beam is so cheap, the best synergy with banner due to the class mastery, more flex slots for support skills than any other class without sacrificing your damage (which happens to include 20 second minor vuln and brittle and minor courage that used to be exclusively from sets).
All of these things make arcanist by far the best choice for anyone who is playing in groups with inconsistent buff uptimes, and it's not even close. On top of all it's also the easiest class to play.

There are bunch of things that I think should have never been given to arcanists in the first place, but now over a year later it's too late to remove them. People have gotten used to the power and ease arcanist gives and it would do more harm than good to now sledgehammer the class, even if I personally hate playing it and will find every excuse to play something else. It would set back pretty much all the progs and that would just make people more displeased, and potentially make them quit the game/raiding. The big changes should have happened before a stable meta around arcanist had time to form, but now it's too late. It seems that ZoS has decided that this is the baseline for what a class should be able to do, now the other classes should be brought to its level, by actually addressing their weaknesses (not turning a charge into a taunt or making the abomination that is Gravelord's Sacrifice), because right now they are competing against a class that has none.

To comment on the posts about top groups playing different classes other than arcanist: They will play any class that has the highest ceiling. Right now it's close between necro, arcanist and DK, but that's where the problem lies. The fact that arcanist can be the easiest and even close to being the best class is just ridiculous. Players should be rewarded for mastering the combat and playing well, right now they are not. You can parse out of your mind on a necro and be 3% better than you could be by looking at the boss' general direction as an arcanist. There are also a bunch of players in top groups that refuse to play arcanist, because they are already sick of it, not because some other class is better in certain scenario.

This is really the biggest issue with arca. If you're playing any other class you need to be much better player to outdamage an average beamer. And that's often assuming that you are getting buffed and your tanks can control the fight reasonably well.

Instead of promoting group play and coordination we got an ultimate tool for yoloing.

I've notice on my jabbing Magplar, even when I'm in dungeons with a really good tank who can pull everything into the one location, I do significantly less damage with jabs than the Arcanist does with beam. The only time I can out-damage the arcanist is against single targets during execute phase.

As for my stamina warden, forget it. There is no permutation where that class can outdps an arcanist player of a similar skill.

frogthroat

Corpseburster necro can out-dps arcas. And stamplar isn't too bad either. You just need to press more than one button on those classes.

IncultaWolf

So did necromancer when it came out, don't worry arcanist will get the nerf hammer eventually too.

Reginald_leBlem

Part of the issue is that now all trials are basically one long trash fight. Every single fight has tons of adds, for no reason.
Single target damage is almost meaningless, and it's definitely helped jump arcanist into the top spot.

OtarTheMad

IncultaWolf wrote: »

So did necromancer when it came out, don't worry arcanist will get the nerf hammer eventually too.

This sadly. I can feel it. The cycle will continue. Arcanist will be nerfed and then we will see “buff Arcanist” posts and “nerf X class” posts because score pushers went to the next thing that gets them better scores.

I am, I guess, one of the few who likes that Arcanist is a little easier than others. It gives players an option who can’t do those complicated rotations. Now I am a Magcro main but I enjoy my Arcanist.

People are just so obsessed with that Logs data and let it affect their opinion on a class when that class doesn’t restrict them from any content.

Honestly, for me it is getting to the point where players who are completely obsessed with Logs seem to control the fate of any class, even though sweaty score pushing is a small portion of the overall population. It just makes me play other games that are just more fun.

AnduinTryggva

Techwolf_Lupindo wrote: »

Several prog groups now required an arc and will ban anything else now a days. Its that bad I can't play my main DK.

That.

And if they don't require it it turns out as pure arca runs nonetheless.

In my group I play one of the two non-Arca dps.

As such they could just as well delete all damange skills for all other classes and condemn them to the roles they are left with.

drip_fromtheinkwell

Not sure if anyone else has brought it up, but with that new banner-bearer skill, the already ridiculously simple rotation of a beam arcanist got even MORE simple-- they don't even have to splat-splat-beam anymore. They just sit there and beam away, and get their class's """mechanic""" for free. It's pretty insulting for literally every other dps.

alpha_synuclein

OtarTheMad wrote: »

I am, I guess, one of the few who likes that Arcanist is a little easier than others. It gives players an option who can’t do those complicated rotations. Now I am a Magcro main but I enjoy my Arcanist.

People are just so obsessed with that Logs data and let it affect their opinion on a class when that class doesn’t restrict them from any content.

Honestly, for me it is getting to the point where players who are completely obsessed with Logs seem to control the fate of any class, even though sweaty score pushing is a small portion of the overall population. It just makes me play other games that are just more fun.

You're one of the many, not few. And it's perfectly fine to want the easier option. The problem starts when the easiest option is also the strongest option (in most cases). Because then it becomes the default option and nothing else have a chance to develop. Very few starting players will give up arca almost free power for a mere promise of slight and delayed in time damage increase if achieving it will need much more effort.

As for the logs, I don't think people are obsessed. It's just a way of showing how prevalent arcas are. Or backing up any opinion about power or popularity of a class. It's the only data that we have access to.

OtarTheMad

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

Techwolf_Lupindo wrote: »

Several prog groups now required an arc and will ban anything else now a days. Its that bad I can't play my main DK.

That.

And if they don't require it it turns out as pure arca runs nonetheless.

In my group I play one of the two non-Arca dps.

As such they could just as well delete all damange skills for all other classes and condemn them to the roles they are left with.

But that's the way those type of groups run. It's like we are stuck in a bad habit.

Class A is on top of leaderboards and ESOLogs, players feedback nerfs it. Then whether it's through math or whatever someone in those trial groups figures out that class B gets high scores, so now Guildmasters and Group Leads require THAT class over others... then player feedback gets class B nerfed... then it's class C on top.

The answer would be if you feel stuck and want to play another class in a trial then find those type of guilds because sweaty guilds will always find a class that gets them a higher score and then require that class "only".

OtarTheMad

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

I am, I guess, one of the few who likes that Arcanist is a little easier than others. It gives players an option who can’t do those complicated rotations. Now I am a Magcro main but I enjoy my Arcanist.

People are just so obsessed with that Logs data and let it affect their opinion on a class when that class doesn’t restrict them from any content.

Honestly, for me it is getting to the point where players who are completely obsessed with Logs seem to control the fate of any class, even though sweaty score pushing is a small portion of the overall population. It just makes me play other games that are just more fun.

You're one of the many, not few. And it's perfectly fine to want the easier option. The problem starts when the easiest option is also the strongest option (in most cases). Because then it becomes the default option and nothing else have a chance to develop. Very few starting players will give up arca almost free power for a mere promise of slight and delayed in time damage increase if achieving it will need much more effort.

As for the logs, I don't think people are obsessed. It's just a way of showing how prevalent arcas are. Or backing up any opinion about power or popularity of a class. It's the only data that we have access to.

I just think that data controls things a little too much. I've been playing this game a long time and I have just seen this cycle go over and over and over where a class is on top, then player feedback gets it nerfed because of in game trial leaderboards or now ESOLogs, for years after that class now needs buffs to catch up to other classes and then another class is on top and rinse repeat.

It just gets exhausting when a class you play gets shot in the face over a part of the game you don't even play. I play my Arcanist in some PvE, but mostly PvP where it's not even the top class... nerfing it sends it to the bottom where my Necro is, then I have to try another class to probably see that nerfed. I am just kind of over this stupid cycle.

Desiato

drip_fromtheinkwell wrote: »

Not sure if anyone else has brought it up, but with that new banner-bearer skill, the already ridiculously simple rotation of a beam arcanist got even MORE simple-- they don't even have to splat-splat-beam anymore. They just sit there and beam away, and get their class's """mechanic""" for free. It's pretty insulting for literally every other dps.

This is exactly why I say be careful of what we wish for. This isn't a new trend for ZOS. They've been simplifying gameplay non-stop for 10 years. Do we want every class to play like this?

I would guess ZOS considers the Arcanist to be a smash success and are already working on plans to arcanize every class with some kind of class themed large, effortless cleave ability that is also strong single target.

The reality is that balance is very good for most players. Vet HM trials can and are completed with a wide variety of comps. What truly pushes Arc over the edge is the number of players who can ONLY do HMs with an Arc.

Let's not encourage zos to butcher the remaining good gameplay we have left in the hopeless goal of trifecta dd parity.

BananaBender

OtarTheMad wrote: »

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

I am, I guess, one of the few who likes that Arcanist is a little easier than others. It gives players an option who can’t do those complicated rotations. Now I am a Magcro main but I enjoy my Arcanist.

People are just so obsessed with that Logs data and let it affect their opinion on a class when that class doesn’t restrict them from any content.

Honestly, for me it is getting to the point where players who are completely obsessed with Logs seem to control the fate of any class, even though sweaty score pushing is a small portion of the overall population. It just makes me play other games that are just more fun.

You're one of the many, not few. And it's perfectly fine to want the easier option. The problem starts when the easiest option is also the strongest option (in most cases). Because then it becomes the default option and nothing else have a chance to develop. Very few starting players will give up arca almost free power for a mere promise of slight and delayed in time damage increase if achieving it will need much more effort.

As for the logs, I don't think people are obsessed. It's just a way of showing how prevalent arcas are. Or backing up any opinion about power or popularity of a class. It's the only data that we have access to.

I just think that data controls things a little too much. I've been playing this game a long time and I have just seen this cycle go over and over and over where a class is on top, then player feedback gets it nerfed because of in game trial leaderboards or now ESOLogs, for years after that class now needs buffs to catch up to other classes and then another class is on top and rinse repeat.

It just gets exhausting when a class you play gets shot in the face over a part of the game you don't even play. I play my Arcanist in some PvE, but mostly PvP where it's not even the top class... nerfing it sends it to the bottom where my Necro is, then I have to try another class to probably see that nerfed. I am just kind of over this stupid cycle.

What's the alternative? The meta doesn't change at all and we are stuck playing the same class if we want things done effectively. That's pretty much what has been the case ever since arcanists release. Meta changes and power creep (if done correctly) are what keeps the game interesting and keep people looking forwards to a new update.

Let's be honest here, if you aren't doing trial HMs, the meta doesn't matter. All classes are playable to an extent. In prog groups you also have to take your group into consideration, because there are 11 other people who's time is getting wasted if you decide to show up with a bad build on a class that doesn't perform well. That's why people want to play the 'meta' class/spec.

And logs are not to blame. It's like blaming the news for things that happen around the world.

Vonnegut2506

Whether you do trial HM's or not, if your class gets nerfed due to feedback from people who are upset their class isn't number one on some log that you don't care about, your class still gets nerfed and it does affect you. I don't do HM trials, but when Templar got nerfed due to whining, my Templar still got nerfed. . . and then my DK, then my Warden, then my Necro, and now some trial pusher wants my Arcanist to get nerfed. Just stop already with the cries for nerfing classes and skills.

alpha_synuclein

OtarTheMad wrote: »

I just think that data controls things a little too much. I've been playing this game a long time and I have just seen this cycle go over and over and over where a class is on top, then player feedback gets it nerfed because of in game trial leaderboards or now ESOLogs, for years after that class now needs buffs to catch up to other classes and then another class is on top and rinse repeat.

It just gets exhausting when a class you play gets shot in the face over a part of the game you don't even play. I play my Arcanist in some PvE, but mostly PvP where it's not even the top class... nerfing it sends it to the bottom where my Necro is, then I have to try another class to probably see that nerfed. I am just kind of over this stupid cycle.

It's not logs. It's zos introducing new objectively stronger things every time they want to sell a new chapter. And then nerfing those things before they introduce another... Logs are just a depiction of the situation, not the reason for it.

OtarTheMad

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

I just think that data controls things a little too much. I've been playing this game a long time and I have just seen this cycle go over and over and over where a class is on top, then player feedback gets it nerfed because of in game trial leaderboards or now ESOLogs, for years after that class now needs buffs to catch up to other classes and then another class is on top and rinse repeat.

It just gets exhausting when a class you play gets shot in the face over a part of the game you don't even play. I play my Arcanist in some PvE, but mostly PvP where it's not even the top class... nerfing it sends it to the bottom where my Necro is, then I have to try another class to probably see that nerfed. I am just kind of over this stupid cycle.

It's not logs. It's zos introducing new objectively stronger things every time they want to sell a new chapter. And then nerfing those things before they introduce another... Logs are just a depiction of the situation, not the reason for it.

It is part of it because ZOS will listen to feedback and make adjustments accordingly. So, when players look at Logs or before that it was just in-game trial leaderboards and then come here and complain about that class, ZOS reads that and changes things based on that and others feedback. It’s been happening for a very long time.

It also has happened to a lot of classes and not just chapter ones. Like someone else mention above your post, it happened with Templar. It happened with NB when they were on top, DKs, Sorcs, Necros etc. it just keeps going and has not lead to any sort of balance.

Edit- all it has lead to is the class that I play becomes not so fun to play anymore and I have to switch again.

Taril

OtarTheMad wrote: »

It is part of it because ZOS will listen to feedback and make adjustments accordingly.

It's all on ZOS though.

ZOS doesn't HAVE to make changes based on feedback (Go ask PvP mains how much ZOS has made adjustments according to their feedback )

Then, if changes are made, ZOS doesn't HAVE to decimate the class. It's often possible to bump things down a peg without obliterating them. Literally no-one is asking "Please ZOS, make this class unplayable garbage!" they're often just saying they want thier preferred class to be on par with whatever is the top dog.

Like with Arcanist there's a myriad of ways of adjusting the class so it's less prevalent in PvE that don't kill the class (I.e. Shifting damage away from Fatecarver into Runeblades so you have to use more of the single target Crux builder for damage than just Beam and Flail. Or changing how Fatecarver does damage so it hits the first target harder, but other targets less, improving ST DPS but lowering cleave etc)

This is alongside doing things to improve other classes too. I.e. Undoing all the nerfs they did to every other class's AoE skills because they made such changes at a time when the direction was to make cleave harder to do. As well as giving NB some actual decent AoE in the first place (Like people have been begging for forever)

Theist_VII

I love how disingenuous people are for trying to use an extremely single-target build on Templar as a comparison to an Arcanist.

165k damage by 1 enemy is 165k dps
160k damage by 4 enemies is 640k dps

Not even close.

Groups with a Templar are not mid-maxing, they are in there because someone who plays well and would be a staple to a team mains it and refuses to play another class despite being way more useful on an Arcanist, there’s no two-ways about it.

alpha_synuclein

OtarTheMad wrote: »

It is part of it because ZOS will listen to feedback and make adjustments accordingly. So, when players look at Logs or before that it was just in-game trial leaderboards and then come here and complain about that class, ZOS reads that and changes things based on that and others feedback. It’s been happening for a very long time.

It also has happened to a lot of classes and not just chapter ones. Like someone else mention above your post, it happened with Templar. It happened with NB when they were on top, DKs, Sorcs, Necros etc. it just keeps going and has not lead to any sort of balance.

Edit- all it has lead to is the class that I play becomes not so fun to play anymore and I have to switch again.

Do you honestly believe that if we didn't have logs or leaderboards it would be any different?
Players are neither blind nor stupid. Something overperforming as much as arcanists in pve right now would not go unnoticed.