PVE is at its best balance ever!

ZhuJiuyin

Yes, please continue to enhance some green or red calss. As long as everyone uses the same class, a balance will be reached automatically.
To quote Animal Farm: All Animal (classes) are equal, but some Animal (classes) are more equal than others.
/S

Please BUFF other DPS, the magick version of most classes needs to be taken care of (even magick Arc), NB & Warden are at the bottom regardless of magick or stam version.

For comparison, this is the U34 ranking, Warden still has a chance to enter the top 100.
Although DK accounts for the majority, magic or stam versions of almost every class have a chance to appear on the top 100 list.

Edited to provide new data

Joy_Division

RIP Nightblade DPS

Parasaurolophus

Now players will come who will say that you CAN play in other classes anyway.

kargen27

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

Now players will come who will say that you CAN play in other classes anyway.

Well sure. Most are not chasing leader boards so being in a completely optimal setup isn't needed. There will always be a best and those wanting to be on the leader board will use it. They also build their entire group around that goal not just their own individual build.

silky_soft

No one wants to play nightblade with 0.4s cast on a gap closer that can just bug you into a pooping position.

Or have a pet that stuck in location.

Or have siphon attacks instead of dark deal.

Servadei

Necrom's profit must be amazing.

Valion

This.

This is the sad truth about what has become of a game that wanted to provide the possibility to "play the way you want".
An absurditiy was implemented, making it absolutely impossible to play on eye level.
An egg-laying woool-milk-pig that is as easy to handle as gravity.
Just fall in.

I will remain focussed on my Nightblade no matter what. I've set foot into playing Wardens and Dragonknights just to see how they feel, and it was a good experience.
But what I want to do, is playing as a Nightblade and still provide support and use to an end game trial.
That is not possible. And it hasn't been for a loooong time.
Now, class after class is obviously facing the same fate.
Making room for the most "loud and flashy" class, as @SilverBride has put it in "another" context.

Regarding the Arcanist, I must say that I do not like is aesthetics one bit.
The ugly green is offsetting, and at the very same time it is taking way too much room.
Statistically and visibly.

Stafford197

kargen27 wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

Now players will come who will say that you CAN play in other classes anyway.

Well sure. Most are not chasing leader boards so being in a completely optimal setup isn't needed. There will always be a best and those wanting to be on the leader board will use it. They also build their entire group around that goal not just their own individual build.

Pushing Leaderboards has nothing to do with it though. Sure the Activity Finder pug groups running easy content won’t care what you use, but that’s separate from organized trial groups pushing achievements. Remember we all play in the same Trials community and want to help each other…. players sharing information about strong group compositions are doing it to help others.

There is wiggle room for different sets, strats, classes, especially in less difficult content. But prog groups are by definition a “progression group” since they cannot clear hard content in one go. They will fight through a trial for weeks or even months to accomplish their achievement. The difficulty they face can be drastically reduced by using a powerful group composition. It’s not about Leaderboards, but rather that having increased group power allows the same players to finish an achievement in 2 months instead of 6 months.

And in the case of extra hard stuff like Dreadsail Reef HM where the difficulty is very high, or Lucent Citadel HM which requires lots of cleave damage…. who the heck is bringing 7 Nightblade DPS to this? It sounds like torture just for the sake of rebelling against the meta that ZOS has developed.

Thysbe

to be honest - it has been like that with DKs long before Arcanist entered the Stage

I loved to play my Nightbalde but when my regualar goup was doing Bal Sunnar Trifecta a year ago I finally geave up on doing any serious content with it. The difference of survivability and damage output between Arcanist and NB is just a Joke.

So now I play a class I dont enjoy because I dont want to make my personal preferences a burden to the group.

Zodiarkslayer

That's what you get with Hybridization and Accountwide Achievements. It's not like anybody warned ZOS this would happen.

Oh, no, wait! We did ...

Jaimeh

Thysbe wrote: »

to be honest - it has been like that with DKs long before Arcanist entered the Stage

I loved to play my Nightbalde but when my regualar goup was doing Bal Sunnar Trifecta a year ago I finally geave up on doing any serious content with it. The difference of survivability and damage output between Arcanist and NB is just a Joke.

So now I play a class I don't enjoy because I dont want to make my personal preferences a burden to the group.

This has been my experience as well, I love to play stamNB, but it has been butchered to Oblivion over the years. You no longer see anything except arcanist DDs in logs, besides the odd MK sorc or DK. And with the kind of damage and mitigation that arcanist has compared to other classes it makes sense... I once talked to Brian Wheeler in a live event about the sorry state of stamNB in PvE, but I think they just don't know how to buff the class without negatively affecting PvP, otherwise there's no excuse why it is this way right now.

By the way, OP, while I absolutely agree with your post, and it's an issue we need to keep trying to bring to ZOS, having a sarcastic title might be misunderstood, and not help the visibility of the post.

Turtle_Bot

Jaimeh wrote: »

I once talked to Brian Wheeler in a live event about the sorry state of stamNB in PvE, but I think they just don't know how to buff the class without negatively affecting PvP, otherwise there's no excuse why it is this way right now.

The frustrating part of this particular point is that so many players have given excellent feedback on countless different ways to buff NB in PvE that won't affect PvP, but for some unknown reason, the team refuses to listen to that feedback, and instead the team seems to prefer just piling more and more power into the single target burst abilities such as merciless resolve/concealed/incap/etc. that will always be problematic in PvP when over-buffed.

ZhuJiuyin

Jaimeh wrote: »

By the way, OP, while I absolutely agree with your post, and it's an issue we need to keep trying to bring to ZOS, having a sarcastic title might be misunderstood, and not help the visibility of the post.

I was also worried about whether the title might be misleading. But since the power of Arc has become ridiculously powerful, I still chose to use this title to express irony.
And I still have a glimmer of hope that the developers are smart enough to understand that this is a satirical title.

ZhuJiuyin

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

The frustrating part of this particular point is that so many players have given excellent feedback on countless different ways to buff NB in PvE that won't affect PvP, but for some unknown reason, the team refuses to listen to that feedback, and instead the team seems to prefer just piling more and more power into the single target burst abilities such as merciless resolve/concealed/incap/etc. that will always be problematic in PvP when over-buffed.

Yes, the community has provided countless opinions, some of which are even recognized by the majority of players, but the developers are still not taking action, or taking action slowly. For example, giving some skills a buff that increases their damage to monsters was a request that was not implemented until U44.

In view of the fact that this year’s new content is less than in previous years, the major bugs this year have not been reduced, and there are not many balance adjustments. Why?
This situation has frustrated many players, many of whom are high-end players. The knowledge and enthusiasm of these people are crucial to maintaining the vitality of the community, but ZOS seems to have let people down again and again.

Stafford197

Jaimeh wrote: »

Thysbe wrote: »

to be honest - it has been like that with DKs long before Arcanist entered the Stage

I loved to play my Nightbalde but when my regualar goup was doing Bal Sunnar Trifecta a year ago I finally geave up on doing any serious content with it. The difference of survivability and damage output between Arcanist and NB is just a Joke.

So now I play a class I don't enjoy because I dont want to make my personal preferences a burden to the group.

This has been my experience as well, I love to play stamNB, but it has been butchered to Oblivion over the years. You no longer see anything except arcanist DDs in logs, besides the odd MK sorc or DK. And with the kind of damage and mitigation that arcanist has compared to other classes it makes sense... I once talked to Brian Wheeler in a live event about the sorry state of stamNB in PvE, but I think they just don't know how to buff the class without negatively affecting PvP, otherwise there's no excuse why it is this way right now.

By the way, OP, while I absolutely agree with your post, and it's an issue we need to keep trying to bring to ZOS, having a sarcastic title might be misunderstood, and not help the visibility of the post.

I don’t understand what is confusing Brian Wheeler here.

If you have to choose one area for a class to be properly balanced, then balance classes for PvP because that area is much harder to balance. We also have Battle Spirit for additional tweaks.

In PvE there will then be discrepancies. Simply take the natural strongest PvE spec and use it as a baseline power level for where all other classes should be at. We can then use %Damage buffs against Monsters Only (think the Slayer/Aegis types of buffs) to increase effectiveness purely in PvE.

That logically solves the balance issue to a large degree.

Getting more specific for PvE Stam NB though, these changes would be awesome:
• Mark Target Active Ability additional effect: When you cast Single Target attacks against a Marked target, nearby enemies will also receive 10% of the damage. This bonus increases to 50% against Non-Player enemies.
• Bolstering Darkness Ultimate morph replaced by new morph, Living Shadow.
• Living Shadow Ultimate New Morph, Toggled, drains 5 Ult/Sec: Causes a Shadow Mimic of yourself to be formed which will mimic all of your Single Target attacks against the same target. Your Mimics’s attacks deal 5% of the original damage. This amount is instead 20% against Non-Player enemies.
• Dark Veil Passive replaced with new passive, Rogue’s Gambit. Dark Veil effects added to Active Abilities.
• Rogue’s Gambit New Passive: When you cast a single target Ultimate ability on a Non-Player enemy, you have a 10% chance to refund the cost. This chance is increased by 2% for every 10 Ultimate you have at the time of casting. Cannot exceed a maximum of 80%.

This all adds nothing to PvP. But for PvE, it gives NB a use for currently weak abilities and stays true to the shadowy assassin theme. Mainly it greatly increases their cleave without disrupting the current rotation, lets them maybe get lucky to spam some Ults, and lets them further pursue the shadow-based DPS fantasy. It also has a fun Luck aspect (which is part of the NB theme) where you may use Living Shadow’s mimic and then get off a powerful Soul Harvest or Ballista Ult, which would then be copied by your mimic if you luck out enough to get a refunded cost. All of that, without disrupting PvP.

Idk just my thoughts. Would have a lot more fun playing that instead of Arcanist…

Joy_Division

Stafford197 wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

Now players will come who will say that you CAN play in other classes anyway.

Well sure. Most are not chasing leader boards so being in a completely optimal setup isn't needed. There will always be a best and those wanting to be on the leader board will use it. They also build their entire group around that goal not just their own individual build.

Pushing Leaderboards has nothing to do with it though. Sure the Activity Finder pug groups running easy content won’t care what you use, but that’s separate from organized trial groups pushing achievements. Remember we all play in the same Trials community and want to help each other…. players sharing information about strong group compositions are doing it to help others.

There is wiggle room for different sets, strats, classes, especially in less difficult content. But prog groups are by definition a “progression group” since they cannot clear hard content in one go. They will fight through a trial for weeks or even months to accomplish their achievement. The difficulty they face can be drastically reduced by using a powerful group composition. It’s not about Leaderboards, but rather that having increased group power allows the same players to finish an achievement in 2 months instead of 6 months.

And in the case of extra hard stuff like Dreadsail Reef HM where the difficulty is very high, or Lucent Citadel HM which requires lots of cleave damage…. who the heck is bringing 7 Nightblade DPS to this? It sounds like torture just for the sake of rebelling against the meta that ZOS has developed.

Well said.

It's one thing to play as you want. But when you're wiping on the same boss time and time again, it's hard to look the other 11 people in they eye when you've got your sword & board off-healer Nord Dragonknight posing as a DPS.

Valion

Joy_Division wrote: »

[...], it's hard to look the other 11 people in they eye when you've got your sword & board off-healer Nord Dragonknight posing as a DPS.

So, just bring in 11 Arcanists.
Is that what you're saying?
Because that's what's happening. ;-)

ZhuJiuyin

The biggest problem with ESO right now is that "play the way you want" doesn't actually allow each class to play in their own style.
When was the last time I saw Frost warden, magick/shock sorcerer, and Disease NB in ​​high-end PVE?
Skills such as Power Extraction, Mages' Fury, Shattering Spines, and Northern Storm are rarely used in PVE, or even never used at all.

Major_Mangle

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

The biggest problem with ESO right now is that "play the way you want" doesn't actually allow each class to play in their own style.
When was the last time I saw Frost warden, magick/shock sorcerer, and Disease NB in ​​high-end PVE?
Skills such as Power Extraction, Mages' Fury, Shattering Spines, and Northern Storm are rarely used in PVE, or even never used at all.

You can play whatever you like but that doesn´t mean that it has/should to be competitive. Two very different things.

Edit: yes there should be a decent balance between classes, but that doesn´t mean that "gimmicks" or "funny theme builds" should be as strong as optimized stuff.

BlueRaven

Nbs are doing badly, yet there still will be calls for nerfs on these forums.

For me, the worst part is the last fun thing nbs had (cloak) just got nerfed. The class feels like a husk now. My main, a pve nb, doesn’t even use any class skills on their bar.

xylena_lazarow

This is what they sacrificed PvP Arc for?

We all told them nerfing the tentacle would solve nothing.

Ingenon

I believe that there has always been a meta PvE build for trials prog groups. Groups trying to complete difficult content will use the build that the best groups used for their clear.

And the meta changes when ZOS either nerfs something, or introduces something new. And when the meta changes, the forum lights up with complaints from folks that have to farm the new meta build, because the prior meta build that they spent so much time farming is now not good enough to use in their prog group. And honestly, who wants to spend hours farming the new meta build, sometimes multiple times a year?

I say if the meta is not changing now, then this is a good thing! ZOS, please leave the meta alone, let people have fun playing instead of spending time farming!

Taril

Ingenon wrote: »

I believe that there has always been a meta PvE build for trials prog groups. Groups trying to complete difficult content will use the build that the best groups used for their clear.

The issue is that the difference between meta and non-meta is so ridiculously large.

Like, yes, there will always be a meta. But if non-meta is close enough in effectiveness to the meta then it's not a problem. There will be leeway for people to play what they want and the min-maxers will play the meta to eke out that few extra % effectiveness.

What we're seeing is the meta being so far above EVERYTHING else that even for people whom aren't min-maxing it's simply a no-brainer to play meta.

That's the crux (Hehe, puns) of the issue. It's not that people want a new meta, it's that they want non-meta to be even remotely competitive so that they can play their preferred classes and not be a massive burden to their team.

robpr

The cleave with a single button press is the main Arc driver, not the damage ceiling. DKs and Stamsorc pull better total damage, but Arc teams perform better because the beams will hit everything you need and their adds with near strength of specialized AoE setup.

Ingenon

Taril wrote: »

Ingenon wrote: »

I believe that there has always been a meta PvE build for trials prog groups. Groups trying to complete difficult content will use the build that the best groups used for their clear.

The issue is that the difference between meta and non-meta is so ridiculously large.

Like, yes, there will always be a meta. But if non-meta is close enough in effectiveness to the meta then it's not a problem. There will be leeway for people to play what they want and the min-maxers will play the meta to eke out that few extra % effectiveness.

What we're seeing is the meta being so far above EVERYTHING else that even for people whom aren't min-maxing it's simply a no-brainer to play meta.

That's the crux (Hehe, puns) of the issue. It's not that people want a new meta, it's that they want non-meta to be even remotely competitive so that they can play their preferred classes and not be a massive burden to their team.

I believe there has always been and will always be a meta class. When a trial has 8 DPS, there will be one class that makes up most of the 8 DPS. How do folks want to deal with that?

Maybe we should have a poll. Should players ask ZOS to rotate the meta class? Every update? So for Update 45, which class gets to be meta? And then which class gets to be meta for Update 46?

Personally, I would not like a rotating meta at all. Every update, farm a different class/build. Spend hours farming every update. Yuck!

ZhuJiuyin

Major_Mangle wrote: »

You can play whatever you like but that doesn´t mean that it has/should to be competitive. Two very different things.

Edit: yes there should be a decent balance between classes, but that doesn´t mean that "gimmicks" or "funny theme builds" should be as strong as optimized stuff.

However, the class theme is the reason why players choose to play that class, and it is also the identity of that class.
This is not a so-called "interesting theme" or a strange "gimmick" (such as a DK that only uses ice skills), but the inherent style of this class based on the legend.
Players choose Necro because they want to summon the undead army like a real necromancer, but look what they get? Grave Lord's Sacrifice! And as many people have pointed out, while the corpse mechanic looks interesting at first glance, it's very clunky in practice.
Warden players may hope to summon many pets or use frost abilities, but in fact the only pets that Warden can really use are bears, and the frost abilities cannot perform well because of Ice Staff's Passive Abilities.
These examples show that there are clearly many contradictions or flaws in the current balance of class skills, so that many classes are unable to express a consistent class identity.

If a Warden player can't play a Pet Master or Frost Mage based on Warden's backstory and class skills and effectively participate in the end game, then why do we still need this class to exist?

H_E

Not to defend arc as it desperately needs a giga nerf since its best single target, cleave, burst, continuous damage class but the other classes aren't seen as high end group just straight up don't allow anything but arc, the cros and dks seen are mostly supports outperforming the arcs that know how to press 1 button and the occasion mk sorc

even if zos finally gave arc a needed nerf it would just push dk back into that spot with occasional cros making use of corpse burster

ZhuJiuyin

Don't have to nerf Arc, just buff the other calsses to a position close to Arc. After ZOS finally puts the effect of increasing monster damage into a skill (NB this time), maybe other classes can also have this buff without breaking PVP.
For example, Warden's Northern Storm can be changed to:

Twist a violent storm around you, dealing [4765 / 4816 / 4869 / 4921] Frost Damage every 1 second for 8 seconds to enemies around you and reducing their Movement Speed ​​by 40%. As the storm holds, your Weapon and Spell Damage increases by 50 every 1 second for 5 seconds, and increases damage done to monsters by 1%, up to 10 stacks max. You and nearby allies gain Major Protection, reducing your damage taken by 10%.

Or Sorc's Shattering Spines can be changed to:

After the effect ends the shards shatter, dealing [5240 / 5297 / 5355 / 5413] Magic Damage to any enemy that was encased. Causes an additional 30% damage to monsters.

DexterMorg4n

Arcanist is OP. Good passives, lots of useful buffs and Fatecarver skill (with deadly strike set) is a strong ability for AOE and ST damage.
Other classes must be reworked by devs. For sorcerer (my main) most class abilities are weak or useless. Single target damage is good but sorc generally does not have any good AOE damage ability or useful buffs unlike any other classes, especially compare to Arcanist.
For example , why Dark Exchange skill give minor berserk and minor force buffs ? nobody uses Dark Exchange in PVE. This ability is unusable due to cast time.

Sorc needs to be improved with a good spammable ability and more aoe skills with few minor/major buffs added. (and maybe a smaller size for pets...)

Developers can't release a new class with many improvements without making major changes to the other classes. (STOP nerfing and rework most sets plz, 80% are useless).

JiubLeRepenti

Arcanist is completely OP. It's been like that since Necrom release.

[snip]
[edited for baiting]

BlueRaven

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Don't have to nerf Arc, just buff the other calsses to a position close to Arc.

This.

It won’t happen, some underperforming class will get nerfed again, but this.