Stop Making Companions Disapprove of Basic Game Mechanics

coop500

Never said I didn't want them to have negative reactions at all and only praise me. Please stop putting words in my mouth that I did not say.

AlnilamE

Considering that rapport doesn't matter once you reached max rapport once and your companion is leveled, I really don't mind them reacting negatively to stuff. Every companion reacts negatively to normal in-game functions.

I always have to remember to unsummon Bastian if I come across a Thieves' Trove, for example. At least I did until I put the effort into maxing him out and now I can shock and appall him at will. :-)

spartaxoxo

coop500 wrote: »

Never said I didn't want them to have negative reactions at all and only praise me. Please stop putting words in my mouth that I did not say.

ALL of the negative rapport triggers are basic gameplay. I can't even think of any that aren't. What constitutes advanced gameplay that's fine, to you?

Fischblut

I also really dislike when companions react negatively to my gameplay. Not because I value them as "persons" or adjust my gameplay. It's simply not pleasant to hear bad things when trying to relax. Two upcoming companions seem to have some annoying negative rapport sources as well My evil khajiit Templar would be better Necromancer than Zerith-var!

Companions should only help in combat, they should not make a player feel bad for doing any gameplay activities. I mostly use them for showing off a second mount.
Also, I was spoiled by playing pet sorc long time ago - I would order my pets to attack NPCs who guard crafting nodes or chests. Perfect distraction! It's cool to have such useful "pet" on every character who is not Sorcerer/Warden

I do not understand what's the purpose of negative rapport with companions. Positive rapport is interesting way to unlock their quests. But there is no use of having a companion with negative level of rapport - I never tried to lower it to such level, but I heard that this can even make them despawn/not answer to summoning? Why is there a need for such feature? To unlock an NPC follower who scolds you for playing the game your way, and then stops following you?.. In MMO, where the world is full of real players, NPC companions are just fancy pets and tools. They can also look cool/funny when posing for screenshots But they can never replace a real player by my side.

I can't imagine them as real persons, they are NPCs and they likes/dislikes will never matter as much as if they were actual players.

I tried to use multi-rider mount with NPC companions, and I just can't. It feels so fake... I've seen two players ride together in Cyrodiil, now that was very cute! I also wanted to see someone hop onto my mount and carry them to battle, but sadly I have to be in group with the passenger for that...

As an example, I have multi-rider mount (Siege Turtle) in GW2, and sometimes other players ride with me. Not friends, just random players in the world who are not shy to hop onto my Turtle. It's so fun, and so cute when your "companion" is real player! I become careful how I ride, pay attention to what other player says and where we go. With that mount, other player can assist in killing mobs and get loot/experience together with me, so when they write how happy they are to experience such gameplay, it's so rewarding

Kisakee

coop500 wrote: »

Glad y'all are fine with it, but I really am not and simply won't use them because of this petty stuff. The forums are for everyone to share their opinion and I really had wished the companions only disapproved of stuff that didn't feel like micromanagement or like they were bossing you around.

We're all adults (ingame, I know people under 18 play this game probably) so it feels really really silly to me to have a companion disapprove of you... picking a mushroom, or changing your outfit. You didn't affect them at all, you just picked a mushroom, or changed your own clothes. It doesn't feel realistic or gives them life to me at all. Doing their (so far) decently written quests, now THAT gives them life. And some of the other rapport affecting things that actually makes sense for them to have an opinion on, THAT gives them life.

Not nagging at me for interacting with basic game functions like changing my character's outfit.

Killing neutral NPC's is also a basic game function yet almost all companions dislike it. And as you've stated my opinion is as good as yours so you can't argue about that.

Warhawke_80

I don't like what the Companion system has become...I mean it's ZOS's Railroad and they can run it how they like, but it's ultimately my decision to pay for it or not...as I've said before I want to resub, but ZoS keeps giving me reasons not to.


Maybe things will change with all the complaints but I won't hold my breath.

El_Borracho

I love Sharp-As-Night, but its weird that he is against pickpocketing Laborers but gets very happy when I Blade of Woe them. He's really the only one I play with as he is cool with killing, stealing, selling, and just playing the game, even if he does get upset when I change my outfit.

SilverBride

There has to be something that will decrease their rapport for those players that may want to have a negative rapport for a character.

Ilumia

I don't mind the nag, it adds character and flavor and seems believable.
I mind the loss of rapport.
However with Azandar it's been so fast to rapport level him (thank you to +125 for enchanting daily) that I just didn't care about the loss of rapport. I made it back so fast and easily it doesn't pose a problem.

Maybe a good way to deal with people's likes and dislikes is to just make two toggles. One for the verbal nag, and one for the rapport loss.
Then everyone can enjoy this system without dents in their joy

wolfie1.0.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

It adds flavor and makes the companion feel more like an actual character than a summon.

That hasn't stopped zos from making my own characters feel less and less individual.

brylars

After a while I stopped using them. After the Dunmer kept disliking picking up bugs, the decision became, do I collect bait for fishing or do I working on the companion liking me more? One was worth more than the other.

Necrotech_Master

i more or less just ignore the rapport gains or losses for companions unless its the +125 gains lol

all of the negatives in the world would still be suppressed by 1 day worth of their +125 point dailies lol

the commentary is kind of eh, i have it set to minimal though i occasionally just wish i could turn it off entirely because i dont always want to listen to it (that and it feels extremely repetitive after playing with the companion long enough)

WaywardArgonian

For a moment I was scared Sharp-as-Night would give you negative rapport whenever you enter a city, but luckily he just complains loudly.

Dax_Draconis

Kisakee wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

Glad y'all are fine with it, but I really am not and simply won't use them because of this petty stuff. The forums are for everyone to share their opinion and I really had wished the companions only disapproved of stuff that didn't feel like micromanagement or like they were bossing you around.

We're all adults (ingame, I know people under 18 play this game probably) so it feels really really silly to me to have a companion disapprove of you... picking a mushroom, or changing your outfit. You didn't affect them at all, you just picked a mushroom, or changed your own clothes. It doesn't feel realistic or gives them life to me at all. Doing their (so far) decently written quests, now THAT gives them life. And some of the other rapport affecting things that actually makes sense for them to have an opinion on, THAT gives them life.

Not nagging at me for interacting with basic game functions like changing my character's outfit.

Killing neutral NPC's is also a basic game function yet almost all companions dislike it. And as you've stated my opinion is as good as yours so you can't argue about that.

Thankfully Azandar is indifferent about murdering innocents with the Blade of Woe. I think he said "Any more? I need some tea." when I did that.

LunaFlora

TybaltKaine wrote: »

I'm not understanding why the Meridia worshipping Necromancer who hates all things about being a Necromancer and wants to kill vampires wasn't just made a Templar.

Just give us an actual Necromancer who wants to do Necromancer things.

Zerith is part of the Order of the Hidden Moon and worships Azura, not Meridia.

he has Azure eyes and uses a crescent blade as his ultimate like the Moonlight Blade from the Ashen Scar quests in Northern Elsweyr.
no clue if he literally uses the Moonlight Blade, but it looks the same.

Another Necromancer who worships Azura is Vastarie, an altmer lich who was part of the Ashen Scar quests and she's allied with the Order of the Hidden Moon.


not all necromancers are cartoonishly evil like Mannimarco.

and Zerith hating vampires is a character thing, it's like Mirri hating snakes and goblins.

maybe a future Necromancer companion is a vampire and hates some other random people or creatures.

gamma71

Having some bug that just happens to be near every clickable thing needs to be rethought also. Sorry mirri I just picked one of the 10 million bugs you don't like that just happen to be flying near that chest I just tried to open

DenverRalphy

It's a non issue for me.

All of my characters have 2 or 3 companions assigned to the quick-wheel. If I have Mirri out, and I stumble across a field of torchbugs, I just swap to Sharp or Azandar while I clicky every torchbug I go past (I never pass up an opportunity at T-Bug Thorax). Then as I'm leaving the area, I swap back to Mirri if she's the companion I want out at the moment. If I see a mushroom ready to be picked, Azander goes poof for Mirri or Sharp, etc..

I maintain 1 companion for each role, Healer, Tank, DPS. And swap between them as needeed. It's so quick and easy, that it's become second nature to me. I often don't even realize when I do it.

And I always have a compannion out when I'm out and about. Those occasion purple ring/neck drops are worth a mint!

TybaltKaine

LunaFlora wrote: »

Zerith is part of the Order of the Hidden Moon and worships Azura, not Meridia.

he has Azure eyes and uses a crescent blade as his ultimate like the Moonlight Blade from the Ashen Scar quests in Northern Elsweyr.
no clue if he literally uses the Moonlight Blade, but it looks the same.

Another Necromancer who worships Azura is Vastarie, an altmer lich who was part of the Ashen Scar quests and she's allied with the Order of the Hidden Moon.


not all necromancers are cartoonishly evil like Mannimarco.

and Zerith hating vampires is a character thing, it's like Mirri hating snakes and goblins.

maybe a future Necromancer companion is a vampire and hates some other random people or creatures.

Thank you for noticing my mistake. I was so focused on the idea of Zerith being a Templar that I forgot his association with Azura. Truthfully, I barely interacted with him because I wasn't happy with the conception of the Necromancer companion.

As for Vastarie, her and Telacar were actually contemporaries to Mannimarco, and while she was once a Necromancer, her eventual disdain for that lifestyle manifested after the debacle with her son and her transformation into a lich. She doesn't represent herself as Necromancer, but as a Priest of Azura. You have to pry the fact that she is a Necromancer out of her after realizing she is the same person Telacar was writing about.

I have no issue with complex characterizations of classes that are traditionally evil, but to finally give us a Necromancer companion who is so against the idea of Necromancy is a bit backhanded. People have been asking for an evil companion. Not one who wraps themselves in regret and clings to an identity that doesn't serve them for no reason at all.

Continuing to be a Necromancer makes no sense for a person who has a choice to leave those practices behind. That's like me calling myself a Thief even after I've stopped stealing and changed my life around. Everyone is going to think "That guy's a thief, we should go to him for sketchy work" not "That thief feeds the homeless and works for the cops".

Give me complex characters that make choices that make sense. Give me an actual bad guy who wants to do bad guy things. Not another person who is trapped in a cycle of self-hate and continues to represent what they hate about themselves. It's tired and overdone.

Blood_again

coop500 wrote: »

We're all adults (ingame, I know people under 18 play this game probably) so it feels really really silly to me to have a companion disapprove of you... picking a mushroom, or changing your outfit. You didn't affect them at all, you just picked a mushroom, or changed your own clothes. It doesn't feel realistic or gives them life to me at all.

Don't you have a friend or relative who doesn't like some kind of food, activity or animals? Don't they grumble about it time to time even if it doesn't touch them personally?

"O dear lord, how can you eat it?"
"Your football is just 22 people who attempt to share one ball"
"Ew, dogs smell. What did you find in it?!"

They don't ban you, don't break with you for doing it. They just don't like it and sometimes they say it aloud.
I find companions acting like these people, and it makes them way more alive with those little traits.

vsrs_au

So some companions dislike things the player's character likes, and vice versa? Some companions are easier to live with than others, or more compatible with your character?

Wait a minute... that sounds suspiciously like real life.

MasterSpatula

Blood_again wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

We're all adults (ingame, I know people under 18 play this game probably) so it feels really really silly to me to have a companion disapprove of you... picking a mushroom, or changing your outfit. You didn't affect them at all, you just picked a mushroom, or changed your own clothes. It doesn't feel realistic or gives them life to me at all.

Don't you have a friend or relative who doesn't like some kind of food, activity or animals? Don't they grumble about it time to time even if it doesn't touch them personally?

"O dear lord, how can you eat it?"
"Your football is just 22 people who attempt to share one ball"
"Ew, dogs smell. What did you find in it?!"

They don't ban you, don't break with you for doing it. They just don't like it and sometimes they say it aloud.
I find companions acting like these people, and it makes them way more alive with those little traits.

The smell of Brussels Sprouts turns my stomach. I have never once complained to any friend for ordering them with his or her meal when we go out to eat. I'd feel like an ass.

TDVM

It makes companions more lively, if you don't like it then you don't have to bring companions with you

Blood_again

MasterSpatula wrote: »

The smell of Brussels Sprouts turns my stomach. I have never once complained to any friend for ordering them with his or her meal when we go out to eat. I'd feel like an ass.

Sorry, we won't add you as a companion next chapter. Because you don't grumble. It'd break the players' immersion.
Please try to practice grumbling a bit if you want to get this position.

Elsonso

gamma71 wrote: »

Having some bug that just happens to be near every clickable thing needs to be rethought also. Sorry mirri I just picked one of the 10 million bugs you don't like that just happen to be flying near that chest I just tried to open

I have a distant memory suggesting that these bugs over things are due to botting in the game. Dunno if it was ever confirmed, or just a coincidence that they sort of appeared there.

Syldras

I think one problem is that they rely on likes and dislikes so much to narrate the companion's personality. They could do it differently, by telling us more about their lives, how they grew up, what plans they have, what they think about different topics,... And with "topics" I mean meaningful things. There's so much happening in Tamriel right now, why don't they refer to it? Why no word about the planemeld, no "I heard that people saw dragons in Elsweyr", nothing about the war in Cyrodiil... But of course, that would be much more text and voice acting, which means more costs and efforts. It's just easier to let them just say they like or hate something completely mundane instead, in one short, simple sentence. Certainly it makes them more "realistic" than saying nothing at all, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be done even better. We already had a short discussions about companions voice lines some weeks earlier, where someone even counted the different types of dialogue lines:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/664315/more-uses-for-companions

I'm generally fine with a rapport system, but some things it currently includes seem to minor to matter. Also, the relations are completely skewed. You can't tell me for a lawful person like Bastian cooking cheese is just as bad as fleeing from a guard. Or the nonsense that Sharp complains about steeling from a beggar but is fine with murdering them instead.

Mik195

I'm lazy and find trying to remember what each companion dislikes annoying. I just want to play the game, not remember a laundry list of dislikes. If they only disliked one thing bugs/cheese/mushrooms plus a orientation (ok to steal/not ok to steal), it would be fine, but needing to recall multiple things is unfun.

Cheveyo

spartaxoxo wrote: »

It adds flavor and makes the companion feel more like an actual character than a summon.

Do I really need to lose rapport with Mirri just because I caught a butterfly that wandered in front of me while I was trying to gather some plants?

SilverBride

This never happens to me because I only have my Companions out when I am soloing content such as World Bosses, Dungeons, the IA, etc.. I don't need their help questing or picking flowers.

Cheveyo

SilverBride wrote: »

This never happens to me because I only have my Companions out when I am soloing content such as World Bosses, Dungeons, the IA, etc.. I don't need their help questing or picking flowers.

How'd you manage to level them?

[snip]
[edited for baiting]

Syldras

Cheveyo wrote: »

How'd you manage to level them?
[snip]

What do you mean? Levelling (from level 1 to 20) or disposition?

For levelling you have to gain xp, and you only get that through fighting anyway. So you can do that completely in dungeons or Archive instead of overland, where there's no big risk to lose disposition.

[edited to remove quote]