The change of NB cloak will totally change this class, most fun part gone,

Galeriano2

necro_the_crafter wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

necro_the_crafter wrote: »

6. Power extraction isnt a PvE morph, its single sourse in the entire game of minor courage put on skill while all others are 5pc sets.

Just a small correction here. Minor courage is also sourced from arcanist's domain, werewolf's pack leader morph and recently from certain scribing abilities.

Yea my bad. But still it shows how free it is for nb, Arcanist one has a radius, WW is ultimate and scribing is behind paywall.

Yes, nightblade's acces to minor courage is definietly among the easiest and most beneficial ones considering all the features that power extraction provides.

CameraBeardThePirate

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

deadpool3431 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

NB is the single most annoying and obnoxious class in the game. I can’t count how many times a NB in full dmg gear hits me with Snipe and 3 procs from max range, only to immediately run away in Cloak when I chase after him. Detect potions can’t do much either if you are getting hit from multiple directions by multiple proc NBs.

Cloak needed this nerf. It was long overdue. Now NBs who crutched on Cloak will actually need to adapt and improve instead of relying on this single skill as their defense.

Its the only defense nightblade has that doesn't require running armor cap or losing damage. Sorcs are the most obnoxious class in the game by far. They play on easy mode now and still whine about nightblades. from what I understand it took a zerg to kill you earlier. How is that not completely broken? It wasn't skill. It doesn't take skill to run circles around a tree spamming a heal/shield while everyone else's skills don't hit you. You dislike nightblades because the experienced ones know when to hit you. That's why you see it in your recap so often. You actively choose not to use the tools the game gives you to counter stealth because if you did you wouldn't be able to use your own broken class mechanics. Instead you come here to complain. Idgaf if this gets me banned from the forums btw so go ahead and report it. I'm done with this game after U44.

Only defense Nightblade has? Yes let's completely ignore the fact that they have one of the best burst heals in the game, one of the best HoTs in the game, a skill that gives cheap dodge rolls, both Major and Minor Expedition, and both Major and Minor Cowardice (one of which is sourced by the second best stun in the game). None of those require running armor cap or losing damage. In fact, their heals get better the more damage they have, unlike classes such as Warden or Arcanist.

[snip]

Half of the things you stated here are flat out wrong.

NBs burst heal is Healthy Offering, not Dark Cloak.

Refreshing Path doesn't drain your health, and it gives Major Expedition and a ton of sustain.

Concealed Weapon gives Minor Expedition, not Major - good job reading your tooltips.

NB fear is the second best stun in the game, after streak. It applies Major Cowardice, which is incredibly hard to get and neuters the enemy's damage and healing. FG fear is nowhere near as good and I'm not sure where you're getting that from.

Power Extraction is the morph most NBs use in PvP, not sure why you're calling it the "PvE" morph.

Your root immunity should be coming from Phantasmal, as it provides cheap rolls and Major Evasion (a defensive buff).

All of these skills are defensive tools that should be part of any well put-together PvP build. You don't have to do anything special other than the things you would already be doing in PvP (buffing, stunning, root removal, etc).

Honestly your comment suggests that you haven't even looked through the tooltips of your own class, given how much of what you said was flat out wrong. If you honestly think NB will struggle next patch, I suggest you take another look through your class kit.

[edited to remove quote]

ZeroAxis

Posting player/players’ names is taking it a bit too far. Just gonna throw that in here.

Sorc is definitely overpowered when built a specific way, but even the sorc mains are stating as much. It’s their main, so they will play it. Just as Nightblades will continue to play how they do until the patch.

The toggle isn’t that awful in a normal setting. However, Cyrodiil is anything but normal and lag may make this a challenge for some. There is no ignoring that fact. That is a justifiable concern.

If you like ganking, go with speed, use crouch, use dual wield, and drop most procs. You can do just as much reliable damage and you can get away if the brawl you get stuck in doesn’t work out. Back bar a range weapon for larger siege fights or for picking off reinforcements.

I have done the brawling and X-ing. Done the ball group thing. Played all the other classes. I enjoy NB the most and adjust it as things change. Even no proc no CP was a blast when it first started. NB has a very versatile toolkit. Shade can be hilarious to use.

Point is, things change. We adapt. Don’t target people out of spite. The dog piling from stealth is very likely what brought us here. Not a huge fan of it and never will be. Lone wolf or running satellite to the faction is more fun to me, personally.

blktauna

StaticWave wrote: »

If you're in this thread, just letting you know 7v1ing me doesn't make you a good NB lol

[Edited to remove image for Naming]

I looked in your recap and only two listed were NBs... I see at least 1 sorc and one templar and poss a warden 9depending on when this was) in there. Most of what killed you was not the NBs and reports tell me that this was you running the area. No one hunted you down

deadpool3431

Aurielle wrote: »

deadpool3431 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

NB is the single most annoying and obnoxious class in the game. I can’t count how many times a NB in full dmg gear hits me with Snipe and 3 procs from max range, only to immediately run away in Cloak when I chase after him. Detect potions can’t do much either if you are getting hit from multiple directions by multiple proc NBs.

Cloak needed this nerf. It was long overdue. Now NBs who crutched on Cloak will actually need to adapt and improve instead of relying on this single skill as their defense.

from what I understand it took a zerg to kill you earlier. How is that not completely broken?

My take-away from that screenshot was that seven NB mains ganged up on a player (after recognizing his forum username) and then sent him toxic hate tells when they killed him, simply because they don’t like what he has to say about Cloak in the forums. This is not the same thing as “it took a zerg to kill you.”

No. 8 or 9 standard cyrodiil players. I refuse to use the derogatory word zergling. One nightblade hit him at the correct time and he died. Then came onto the forums to cry about nightblades. Which is typical of LOS rock/tower/tree humpers. You are bad at takeaways

deadpool3431

Aurielle wrote: »

deadpool3431 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

NB is the single most annoying and obnoxious class in the game. I can’t count how many times a NB in full dmg gear hits me with Snipe and 3 procs from max range, only to immediately run away in Cloak when I chase after him. Detect potions can’t do much either if you are getting hit from multiple directions by multiple proc NBs.

Cloak needed this nerf. It was long overdue. Now NBs who crutched on Cloak will actually need to adapt and improve instead of relying on this single skill as their defense.

from what I understand it took a zerg to kill you earlier. How is that not completely broken?

My take-away from that screenshot was that seven NB mains ganged up on a player (after recognizing his forum username) and then sent him toxic hate tells when they killed him, simply because they don’t like what he has to say about Cloak in the forums. This is not the same thing as “it took a zerg to kill you.”

Forgot to add that he picked a fight with a zerg first since he can on a sorc that is significantly overperforming this patch. There just happened to be a couple experienced players in there who knew when to hit him as he played ring around the "cant target me" tree. No one targeted him specifically. I've personally never encountered him at all outside of the forum whinging over nightblades in general.

StaticWave

blktauna wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

If you're in this thread, just letting you know 7v1ing me doesn't make you a good NB lol

[Edited to remove image for Naming]

I looked in your recap and only two listed were NBs... I see at least 1 sorc and one templar and poss a warden 9depending on when this was) in there. Most of what killed you was not the NBs and reports tell me that this was you running the area. No one hunted you down

Just thought it was funny that the guy knew me from the forums lol.

StaticWave

deadpool3431 wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

deadpool3431 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

NB is the single most annoying and obnoxious class in the game. I can’t count how many times a NB in full dmg gear hits me with Snipe and 3 procs from max range, only to immediately run away in Cloak when I chase after him. Detect potions can’t do much either if you are getting hit from multiple directions by multiple proc NBs.

Cloak needed this nerf. It was long overdue. Now NBs who crutched on Cloak will actually need to adapt and improve instead of relying on this single skill as their defense.

from what I understand it took a zerg to kill you earlier. How is that not completely broken?

My take-away from that screenshot was that seven NB mains ganged up on a player (after recognizing his forum username) and then sent him toxic hate tells when they killed him, simply because they don’t like what he has to say about Cloak in the forums. This is not the same thing as “it took a zerg to kill you.”

No. 8 or 9 standard cyrodiil players. I refuse to use the derogatory word zergling. One nightblade hit him at the correct time and he died. Then came onto the forums to cry about nightblades. Which is typical of LOS rock/tower/tree humpers. You are bad at takeaways

deadpool3431 wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

deadpool3431 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

NB is the single most annoying and obnoxious class in the game. I can’t count how many times a NB in full dmg gear hits me with Snipe and 3 procs from max range, only to immediately run away in Cloak when I chase after him. Detect potions can’t do much either if you are getting hit from multiple directions by multiple proc NBs.

Cloak needed this nerf. It was long overdue. Now NBs who crutched on Cloak will actually need to adapt and improve instead of relying on this single skill as their defense.

from what I understand it took a zerg to kill you earlier. How is that not completely broken?

My take-away from that screenshot was that seven NB mains ganged up on a player (after recognizing his forum username) and then sent him toxic hate tells when they killed him, simply because they don’t like what he has to say about Cloak in the forums. This is not the same thing as “it took a zerg to kill you.”

Forgot to add that he picked a fight with a zerg first since he can on a sorc that is significantly overperforming this patch. There just happened to be a couple experienced players in there who knew when to hit him as he played ring around the "cant target me" tree. No one targeted him specifically. I've personally never encountered him at all outside of the forum whinging over nightblades in general.

Just thought it was funny he whispered me while hiding in offline mode. And no, there weren't experienced players in there, just bad timing + overwhelming numbers

StaticWave

Here's the full video of that screenshot:

https://youtu.be/ef5oSTFoRog

My Rallying Cry didn't proc so RIP for that. I could've played it a little better as well, but just found it funny the guy whispered while in offline mode.

IncultaWolf

StaticWave wrote: »

Here's the full video of that screenshot:

https://youtu.be/ef5oSTFoRog

My Rallying Cry didn't proc so RIP for that. I could've played it a little better as well, but just found it funny the guy whispered while in offline mode.

Seeing a group of people in full damage proc builds running down solo players makes me cringe everytime I swear everytime I see a clip of players getting zerged down, it's always EP

But I guess the feeling of usually having a fair fight is what made me enjoy battlegrounds so much.

StaticWave

deadpool3431 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

NB is the single most annoying and obnoxious class in the game. I can’t count how many times a NB in full dmg gear hits me with Snipe and 3 procs from max range, only to immediately run away in Cloak when I chase after him. Detect potions can’t do much either if you are getting hit from multiple directions by multiple proc NBs.

Cloak needed this nerf. It was long overdue. Now NBs who crutched on Cloak will actually need to adapt and improve instead of relying on this single skill as their defense.

Its the only defense nightblade has that doesn't require running armor cap or losing damage. Sorcs are the most obnoxious class in the game by far. They play on easy mode now and still whine about nightblades. from what I understand it took a zerg to kill you earlier. How is that not completely broken? It wasn't skill. It doesn't take skill to run circles around a tree spamming a heal/shield while everyone else's skills don't hit you. You dislike nightblades because the experienced ones know when to hit you. That's why you see it in your recap so often. You actively choose not to use the tools the game gives you to counter stealth because if you did you wouldn't be able to use your own broken class mechanics. Instead you come here to complain. Idgaf if this gets me banned from the forums btw so go ahead and report it. I'm done with this game after U44.

LOL, let me show you why it took a zerg to kill me:










I'm in 4 defensive CPs, 41k resistances, 4.1k crit resist, Major+ Minor Protection, Major Evasion, Major Maim, Minor Mending, and a lot of blocking. I sacrificed all my damage stats to be as tanky as possible to survive in outnumbered PvP. My damage comes from high APM and using specific skills to boost my damage done. High APM requires perfect parsing btw, which takes more skill than the average player can perform. Put this build on another player and I can guarantee you he won't perform as well as me.

Regardless, building tanky is something EVERY class can do. It's not limited to Sorc. Like I said in my previous comment:

StaticWave wrote: »

People who have never played anything but gank NB or relied on Cloak too much will never understand what normal theory crafting is, hence the multiple statements about "Rallying Crutch" or "tanky meta brawler". If they had actually played a regular build without crutching on Cloak they would have understood that Rallying Cry and building tanky are a necessity in this meta.

StaticWave

StaticWave wrote: »

LOL, let me show you why it took a zerg to kill me:

These are my front bar stats in this build, btw:



Tooltip of my spammable:




With Major + Minor Breach, I'm only sitting at 15k pen. With that tooltip and offensive stats, I'm not going to kill anyone remotely decent, but that's ok because that was never the intention of this build. This build's main purpose is to give me as much tankiness as possible to deal with the constant barrage of procs, snipe from stealth, crystal frags, DoTs, etc. when I fight outnumbered. The only reason I'm even able to kill people in this setup is because of skill difference. Most people in Cyrodiil aren't really that good lol.

To kill an actual decent player, I normally run this:




17.5k pen with 105 ult Balorgh, and potentially 26.6k if I save a 500 ult Balorgh. Max WD also goes to like 7k with full Balorgh and Sundered status effect. Crit damage is also higher, and max stam is also higher. My mitigation goes way down, which is fine for 1v1s but definitely not optimal for Cyrodiil.

This is considered "full damage" by my standards, yet I still have 3.7k crit resistance and over 28k resistances to not get one-shotted. A ganker NB can run with WAY LESS mitigation. Like I said, theory crafting is a lot more complex when you have to allocate stats for both defense and offense.

Aurielle

deadpool3431 wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

deadpool3431 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

NB is the single most annoying and obnoxious class in the game. I can’t count how many times a NB in full dmg gear hits me with Snipe and 3 procs from max range, only to immediately run away in Cloak when I chase after him. Detect potions can’t do much either if you are getting hit from multiple directions by multiple proc NBs.

Cloak needed this nerf. It was long overdue. Now NBs who crutched on Cloak will actually need to adapt and improve instead of relying on this single skill as their defense.

from what I understand it took a zerg to kill you earlier. How is that not completely broken?

My take-away from that screenshot was that seven NB mains ganged up on a player (after recognizing his forum username) and then sent him toxic hate tells when they killed him, simply because they don’t like what he has to say about Cloak in the forums. This is not the same thing as “it took a zerg to kill you.”

No. 8 or 9 standard cyrodiil players. I refuse to use the derogatory word zergling. One nightblade hit him at the correct time and he died. Then came onto the forums to cry about nightblades. Which is typical of LOS rock/tower/tree humpers. You are bad at takeaways

I concede I was wrong on the number of NBs involved (I don’t recognize any of those character names), but the hate tells were still targeted harassment based on forum opinions. It’s clear that the person sending the tells recognized the forum username. I don’t think I’m bad at takeaways at all. You focused on an irrelevant detail (the fact that it took several players to take out someone on a 1vX build), and I focused on the actual issue: someone being incredibly toxic via tells due to an opinion expressed in a forum.

System_Data

Or maybe that's just the caveat of playing the assassin/rogue class. People theorycraft and they take into consideration that they have access to cloak included for their defense strategies. Many games with assassin/rogue classes uses their invisibility to survive, this is nothing new. The problem is ZOS gave NBs too much in their kit where invisiblity may not be needed for defense. So instead of tuning their other capabilities for defense, you would rather nerf cloak and have NBs become tankblades/brawler blades. How exactly is that appropriate for a class that's supposedly based on a assassin/rogue?
In general, you should be dying 1vX, and if you live, that's the exception not the norm. No matter how weak rats are if you're caught in a rat tide, you die. That's how cyrodiil should be anyways, it's a faction war.

At this point, the screenshots you provided with all the 1vX is derailing the topic.

fred4

System_Data wrote: »

Or maybe that's just the caveat of playing the assassin/rogue class. People theorycraft and they take into consideration that they have access to cloak included for their defense strategies. Many games with assassin/rogue classes uses their invisibility to survive, this is nothing new. The problem is ZOS gave NBs too much in their kit where invisiblity may not be needed for defense. So instead of tuning their other capabilities for defense, you would rather nerf cloak and have NBs become tankblades/brawler blades. How exactly is that appropriate for a class that's supposedly based on a assassin/rogue?

I agree. The broader problem is "play as you want", the consequent hybridisation and homogenisation, the idea that every class ought to be viable as a (PvE) tank, the tied-together PvP/PvE balancing, and the consequent ability to put together builds that have it all except for class identity.

Tommy_The_Gun

StaticWave wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

LOL, let me show you why it took a zerg to kill me:

These are my front bar stats in this build, btw:



Tooltip of my spammable:




With Major + Minor Breach, I'm only sitting at 15k pen. With that tooltip and offensive stats, I'm not going to kill anyone remotely decent, but that's ok because that was never the intention of this build. This build's main purpose is to give me as much tankiness as possible to deal with the constant barrage of procs, snipe from stealth, crystal frags, DoTs, etc. when I fight outnumbered. The only reason I'm even able to kill people in this setup is because of skill difference. Most people in Cyrodiil aren't really that good lol.

To kill an actual decent player, I normally run this:




17.5k pen with 105 ult Balorgh, and potentially 26.6k if I save a 500 ult Balorgh. Max WD also goes to like 7k with full Balorgh and Sundered status effect. Crit damage is also higher, and max stam is also higher. My mitigation goes way down, which is fine for 1v1s but definitely not optimal for Cyrodiil.

This is considered "full damage" by my standards, yet I still have 3.7k crit resistance and over 28k resistances to not get one-shotted. A ganker NB can run with WAY LESS mitigation. Like I said, theory crafting is a lot more complex when you have to allocate stats for both defense and offense.

Tbh. And with all due respect, for a build that is extremely tanky like that, you still have tons of offensive stats. I mean you said that you sacrificed all your damage stats to be as tanky as possible to survive in outnumbered PvP. But for a build that "sacrificed all dmg", you still hit like a truck with stats like this.

And you really mean that you are only able to kill other player cuz they are noobs & make mistakes and you are more skilled than them ? Even with build like this ?

Synapsis123

I tried cloak on PTS and I actually like it. It seems okay.

Stafford197

If you want to nerf NB Cloak just give it a stacking cost increase, or make it increase ability costs by 100% while active, or reduce your resistances to 0 while active, or disable healing while active, etc.
All of these would be big nerfs.

What I do care about is changing the way this ability functions. To me this is the same as if Sorc Streak became a targeted gap closer like Stampede. If we had a new third morph that was a toggle then that’s fine, but to change a 10 year old ability into a toggle is a big no from me. And all just to apparently nerf the class in PvP no less.

sneakymitchell

Aurielle wrote: »

Ishtarknows wrote: »

Console player so can't test it, but does Darloc Brae still proc while Shadowy Disguise is toggled on?

I don't PvP NB but do enjoy the sneaky side of PvE and that set is a mainstay for me

If you enjoy the sneaky side of PVE, you will still enjoy NB (assuming they don't tweak it further). Here you go:

https://youtu.be/OHiQLEl4i0Q

This is with a Darloc Brae back bar. You can clearly see it working. I thought it might have been a bug before, as I assumed any set affecting magicka recovery / magicka gain would be disabled by Shadowy Disguise, but that's not the case here. Crouching before activating Shadowy Disguise while running Darloc Brae is less punishing than it is if you don't crouch.

Yea you don’t need the set to substain magic. You can use rally heal and other things like hp recovery siphon your magic back. And you can still bar swap unlike the other toggles which you need both skills on the bar. (I hate double bar same skill.)
This won’t change anything at all. It be adjusting to siphon more and heal.

StaticWave

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

LOL, let me show you why it took a zerg to kill me:

These are my front bar stats in this build, btw:



Tooltip of my spammable:




With Major + Minor Breach, I'm only sitting at 15k pen. With that tooltip and offensive stats, I'm not going to kill anyone remotely decent, but that's ok because that was never the intention of this build. This build's main purpose is to give me as much tankiness as possible to deal with the constant barrage of procs, snipe from stealth, crystal frags, DoTs, etc. when I fight outnumbered. The only reason I'm even able to kill people in this setup is because of skill difference. Most people in Cyrodiil aren't really that good lol.

To kill an actual decent player, I normally run this:




17.5k pen with 105 ult Balorgh, and potentially 26.6k if I save a 500 ult Balorgh. Max WD also goes to like 7k with full Balorgh and Sundered status effect. Crit damage is also higher, and max stam is also higher. My mitigation goes way down, which is fine for 1v1s but definitely not optimal for Cyrodiil.

This is considered "full damage" by my standards, yet I still have 3.7k crit resistance and over 28k resistances to not get one-shotted. A ganker NB can run with WAY LESS mitigation. Like I said, theory crafting is a lot more complex when you have to allocate stats for both defense and offense.

Tbh. And with all due respect, for a build that is extremely tanky like that, you still have tons of offensive stats. I mean you said that you sacrificed all your damage stats to be as tanky as possible to survive in outnumbered PvP. But for a build that "sacrificed all dmg", you still hit like a truck with stats like this.

And you really mean that you are only able to kill other player cuz they are noobs & make mistakes and you are more skilled than them ? Even with build like this ?

Yes, I was actually surprised as well when I could still kill players. I’ve always run full damage in the past and my damage values were much higher.

For example, in the 2nd build where I was in full damage, my B4B would hit an average player for 4k non crit and upwards of 8k crit. Meanwhile, the tank build in the first screenshot only hits for 2.5k non crit and 4.5k crit. My playstyle does not change when I swap builds, so these lower damage values should not be killing anyone decent at all.

The only explanation is I’m fighting worse players than the ones I usually fight against. The average player in Cyrodiil are accustomed to large fights and usually getting help from teammates. They don’t really have a solid defensive and offensive rotation due to that reason.

Alchimiste1

Aurielle wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

If you're in this thread, just letting you know 7v1ing me doesn't make you a good NB lol

[Edited to remove image for Naming]

So sad. Grow up, guys. Someone should be able to express an opinion in a forum without being targeted in game for that opinion. This is precisely the reason why my forum username and my in-game name are different.

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

If you're in this thread, just letting you know 7v1ing me doesn't make you a good NB lol

[Edited to remove image for Naming]

It takes 7 Nbs to take down 1 sorc on average ? Is this how we should read that O.o XD

Edit:
Also, funny how Tarnished is doing like 22% of dmg.... XD Clearly Nb's cloak is the issue lol

Way to miss the point. This is targeted harassment based on an opinion expressed in a forum — it’s not demonstrating that it “takes 7 Nbs to take down 1 sorc on average.”

Very wise

Tommy_The_Gun

Stafford197 wrote: »

If you want to nerf NB Cloak just give it a stacking cost increase, or make it increase ability costs by 100% while active, or reduce your resistances to 0 while active, or disable healing while active, etc.
All of these would be big nerfs.

What I do care about is changing the way this ability functions. To me this is the same as if Sorc Streak became a targeted gap closer like Stampede. If we had a new third morph that was a toggle then that’s fine, but to change a 10 year old ability into a toggle is a big no from me. And all just to apparently nerf the class in PvP no less.

That is what most NBs are actually concerned the most. Toggle abilities do not like lag. They tend to be hyper unreliable. And even current cloak with a duration can bug-out sometimes. People can adapt to cost increases for as long as it is nothing ridiculous and current PTS is on the very edge of "adapting" to it. But if this skill becomes a toggle then it also means that it will be for the most part luck & RNG if it works or not. I am not sure if it is possible to adapt to a skill that may or may not work....
Like I have said before - if it will be too random to rely upon, then NBs might as well use invisibility pots & vamp... but at this point you might as well switch to stam sorc & gank people with it.

ioResult

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Offering (the burst heal) is NOT the other morph of shadowy disguise, that is dark cloak which is a heal over time that scales off max health. The burst heal is a completely different skill to cloak so NB gets to have BOTH at the same time.

No you don't get both at the same time. The burst heal pulls you out of stealth while you cast it. So you only usually cast the burst heal while you're visible and you have to be judicious with both because you usually have less than 20K Magicka in total unless you're a Magblade.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

The heal over time abilities, Dark cloak/refreshing path do NOT drain your health, that is Offering that does that as part of its cost and it's health drain is so minimal and easy to completely ignore if you have siphoning strikes (either morph) slotted on either bar.

Literally only Brawlers use Dark cloak or refreshing path. And we know Brawlers make up a tiny, tiny minority of Nightblades in open world PvP. They're so stupidly OP that actual Nightblades just avoid them.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Concealed weapon gives MINOR! expedition, NOT Major. Minor expedition is MUCH harder to come by outside of scribing than Major is and concealed gives it for free on EITHER bar. No other class has this, not even sorc that has to actively use hurricane, costing resources, to get minor expedition which has a duration.

With 18K resistances - if they're lucky - combined with the fact that 50 different things pull them out of stealth, speed is the only other defense that Nightblades have. Does this contribute to the OP nature of Brawlers? Absolutely, but again we're not optimizing skills for the 1% of Nightblades in Cyrodiil.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

FG fear is much worse than NB fear. NB fear inflicts MAJOR cowardice, that is such a rare debuff currently whereas Turn Evil gives minor protection and minor endurance, both of which are already easily available for a lot of (if not all of) the classes, including NB. This also doesn't take into account that Mass hysteria has an additional meter of AoE over turn evil, making it easier to land.

You hit the nail on the head here. It's too hard to land in anything but zerg surfing. You need to stand still and wait for the target to run past you as it circles around a rock or a tree repeatedly. You can only do this if you're in melee range - somewhere you don't want to be as a squishy Nightblade unless you're in or adjacent to a zerg.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Power extraction is not a PvE morph, it is insanely strong in PvP. It's AoE so it reveals invis enemies, it grants Major Brutality/Sorcery AND Minor Courage as well as inflicting Minor cowardice. This skill alone has the biggest weapon/spell damage stat swing of ANY skill in the game currently and it's a spammable AoE on par with whirling blades on top of that.

This is just like the fear, you need to be in melee range and it has to hit. With Sorcs streaking and everyone else running around at speed cap, this never lands just like Fear never lands whenever there's any lag at all in Cyrodiil.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

The roll dodge cost reduction is a FREE BONUS effect on blur, blur is already such a strong skill, especially phantasmal escape morph because it is castable while invis and it grants MAJOR evasion AND snare immunity/cleanse. Major evasion is still a very rare buff that is currently a very strong source of mitigation.

So again, who does a lot of roll dodging? Only Brawlers, no one else. So you're making our case for us. Over 95% of Nightblades in Cyrodiil are NOT Brawlers yet all the skills you mention above are optimized for that one single playstyle of Nightblade - and which I argue contribute to the OP nature of the playstyle to the detriment of all other Ngihtblades in Cyrodiil.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

As for NB requiring a lot of GCDs for its defense, how is this different from any other class/build (outside of specifically max mag wardsorc). Every other class (including sorcs that don't use ward, yes we exist) need to stack up multiple HoTs, their burst heal, roll dodge, block, LoS etc. but none of those other classes have cloak or shade on top of all of that nor does any other get their Major Resolve buff for free as a passive meaning those classes all have 1 more button push for their defensive rotations than NB has.

And...see above...Major Resolve is a huge reason Brawlers are so OP in Cyrodiil, but 95% of Nightblades are lucky if it gets them to 20K resistances, usually around 18K with it.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

The only difficulty with shade is ensuring it's maintained and having some tiny awareness that there aren't 20 enemies camping it ready to punish the teleport. For that "difficulty" shade not only comes with a teleport that ignores LoS/walls/verticality, but also a free DoT + minor maim for free 5% mitigation.

So again, this is only applicable to Brawlers. Ranged Nightblades have no use for this skill really.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

P.s. this is from someone who has been playing a lot of NB lately (not just brawler blade) and who also took the 2 minutes it takes to ensure correct information by double checking the class on the build editor that shows every single skill.

P.P.S. This is from someone who has been playing Nightblade in PvE and PvP since the beginning and who will only play a Brawler in BGs when - albeit rarely - the mood strikes. Your points are valid but mostly only for Brawlers.

darvaria

NB's needed the nerf. Hopefully, they will get another nerf.

CameraBeardThePirate

ioResult wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Offering (the burst heal) is NOT the other morph of shadowy disguise, that is dark cloak which is a heal over time that scales off max health. The burst heal is a completely different skill to cloak so NB gets to have BOTH at the same time.

No you don't get both at the same time. The burst heal pulls you out of stealth while you cast it. So you only usually cast the burst heal while you're visible and you have to be judicious with both because you usually have less than 20K Magicka in total unless you're a Magblade.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

The heal over time abilities, Dark cloak/refreshing path do NOT drain your health, that is Offering that does that as part of its cost and it's health drain is so minimal and easy to completely ignore if you have siphoning strikes (either morph) slotted on either bar.

Literally only Brawlers use Dark cloak or refreshing path. And we know Brawlers make up a tiny, tiny minority of Nightblades in open world PvP. They're so stupidly OP that actual Nightblades just avoid them.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Concealed weapon gives MINOR! expedition, NOT Major. Minor expedition is MUCH harder to come by outside of scribing than Major is and concealed gives it for free on EITHER bar. No other class has this, not even sorc that has to actively use hurricane, costing resources, to get minor expedition which has a duration.

With 18K resistances - if they're lucky - combined with the fact that 50 different things pull them out of stealth, speed is the only other defense that Nightblades have. Does this contribute to the OP nature of Brawlers? Absolutely, but again we're not optimizing skills for the 1% of Nightblades in Cyrodiil.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

FG fear is much worse than NB fear. NB fear inflicts MAJOR cowardice, that is such a rare debuff currently whereas Turn Evil gives minor protection and minor endurance, both of which are already easily available for a lot of (if not all of) the classes, including NB. This also doesn't take into account that Mass hysteria has an additional meter of AoE over turn evil, making it easier to land.

You hit the nail on the head here. It's too hard to land in anything but zerg surfing. You need to stand still and wait for the target to run past you as it circles around a rock or a tree repeatedly. You can only do this if you're in melee range - somewhere you don't want to be as a squishy Nightblade unless you're in or adjacent to a zerg.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Power extraction is not a PvE morph, it is insanely strong in PvP. It's AoE so it reveals invis enemies, it grants Major Brutality/Sorcery AND Minor Courage as well as inflicting Minor cowardice. This skill alone has the biggest weapon/spell damage stat swing of ANY skill in the game currently and it's a spammable AoE on par with whirling blades on top of that.

This is just like the fear, you need to be in melee range and it has to hit. With Sorcs streaking and everyone else running around at speed cap, this never lands just like Fear never lands whenever there's any lag at all in Cyrodiil.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

The roll dodge cost reduction is a FREE BONUS effect on blur, blur is already such a strong skill, especially phantasmal escape morph because it is castable while invis and it grants MAJOR evasion AND snare immunity/cleanse. Major evasion is still a very rare buff that is currently a very strong source of mitigation.

So again, who does a lot of roll dodging? Only Brawlers, no one else. So you're making our case for us. Over 95% of Nightblades in Cyrodiil are NOT Brawlers yet all the skills you mention above are optimized for that one single playstyle of Nightblade - and which I argue contribute to the OP nature of the playstyle to the detriment of all other Ngihtblades in Cyrodiil.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

As for NB requiring a lot of GCDs for its defense, how is this different from any other class/build (outside of specifically max mag wardsorc). Every other class (including sorcs that don't use ward, yes we exist) need to stack up multiple HoTs, their burst heal, roll dodge, block, LoS etc. but none of those other classes have cloak or shade on top of all of that nor does any other get their Major Resolve buff for free as a passive meaning those classes all have 1 more button push for their defensive rotations than NB has.

And...see above...Major Resolve is a huge reason Brawlers are so OP in Cyrodiil, but 95% of Nightblades are lucky if it gets them to 20K resistances, usually around 18K with it.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

The only difficulty with shade is ensuring it's maintained and having some tiny awareness that there aren't 20 enemies camping it ready to punish the teleport. For that "difficulty" shade not only comes with a teleport that ignores LoS/walls/verticality, but also a free DoT + minor maim for free 5% mitigation.

So again, this is only applicable to Brawlers. Ranged Nightblades have no use for this skill really.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

P.s. this is from someone who has been playing a lot of NB lately (not just brawler blade) and who also took the 2 minutes it takes to ensure correct information by double checking the class on the build editor that shows every single skill.

P.P.S. This is from someone who has been playing Nightblade in PvE and PvP since the beginning and who will only play a Brawler in BGs when - albeit rarely - the mood strikes. Your points are valid but mostly only for Brawlers.

Sorry but you're acting like slotting any defensive ability makes you a brawler when that's not the case, it just makes you intelligent. You're purposefully gimping yourself, then crying that you don't have any defensive tools.

Maybe if you actually slotted some of those abilities you'd realize NBs won't have it so bad after all.

DrSlaughtr

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

ioResult wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Offering (the burst heal) is NOT the other morph of shadowy disguise, that is dark cloak which is a heal over time that scales off max health. The burst heal is a completely different skill to cloak so NB gets to have BOTH at the same time.

No you don't get both at the same time. The burst heal pulls you out of stealth while you cast it. So you only usually cast the burst heal while you're visible and you have to be judicious with both because you usually have less than 20K Magicka in total unless you're a Magblade.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

The heal over time abilities, Dark cloak/refreshing path do NOT drain your health, that is Offering that does that as part of its cost and it's health drain is so minimal and easy to completely ignore if you have siphoning strikes (either morph) slotted on either bar.

Literally only Brawlers use Dark cloak or refreshing path. And we know Brawlers make up a tiny, tiny minority of Nightblades in open world PvP. They're so stupidly OP that actual Nightblades just avoid them.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Concealed weapon gives MINOR! expedition, NOT Major. Minor expedition is MUCH harder to come by outside of scribing than Major is and concealed gives it for free on EITHER bar. No other class has this, not even sorc that has to actively use hurricane, costing resources, to get minor expedition which has a duration.

With 18K resistances - if they're lucky - combined with the fact that 50 different things pull them out of stealth, speed is the only other defense that Nightblades have. Does this contribute to the OP nature of Brawlers? Absolutely, but again we're not optimizing skills for the 1% of Nightblades in Cyrodiil.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

FG fear is much worse than NB fear. NB fear inflicts MAJOR cowardice, that is such a rare debuff currently whereas Turn Evil gives minor protection and minor endurance, both of which are already easily available for a lot of (if not all of) the classes, including NB. This also doesn't take into account that Mass hysteria has an additional meter of AoE over turn evil, making it easier to land.

You hit the nail on the head here. It's too hard to land in anything but zerg surfing. You need to stand still and wait for the target to run past you as it circles around a rock or a tree repeatedly. You can only do this if you're in melee range - somewhere you don't want to be as a squishy Nightblade unless you're in or adjacent to a zerg.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Power extraction is not a PvE morph, it is insanely strong in PvP. It's AoE so it reveals invis enemies, it grants Major Brutality/Sorcery AND Minor Courage as well as inflicting Minor cowardice. This skill alone has the biggest weapon/spell damage stat swing of ANY skill in the game currently and it's a spammable AoE on par with whirling blades on top of that.

This is just like the fear, you need to be in melee range and it has to hit. With Sorcs streaking and everyone else running around at speed cap, this never lands just like Fear never lands whenever there's any lag at all in Cyrodiil.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

The roll dodge cost reduction is a FREE BONUS effect on blur, blur is already such a strong skill, especially phantasmal escape morph because it is castable while invis and it grants MAJOR evasion AND snare immunity/cleanse. Major evasion is still a very rare buff that is currently a very strong source of mitigation.

So again, who does a lot of roll dodging? Only Brawlers, no one else. So you're making our case for us. Over 95% of Nightblades in Cyrodiil are NOT Brawlers yet all the skills you mention above are optimized for that one single playstyle of Nightblade - and which I argue contribute to the OP nature of the playstyle to the detriment of all other Ngihtblades in Cyrodiil.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

As for NB requiring a lot of GCDs for its defense, how is this different from any other class/build (outside of specifically max mag wardsorc). Every other class (including sorcs that don't use ward, yes we exist) need to stack up multiple HoTs, their burst heal, roll dodge, block, LoS etc. but none of those other classes have cloak or shade on top of all of that nor does any other get their Major Resolve buff for free as a passive meaning those classes all have 1 more button push for their defensive rotations than NB has.

And...see above...Major Resolve is a huge reason Brawlers are so OP in Cyrodiil, but 95% of Nightblades are lucky if it gets them to 20K resistances, usually around 18K with it.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

The only difficulty with shade is ensuring it's maintained and having some tiny awareness that there aren't 20 enemies camping it ready to punish the teleport. For that "difficulty" shade not only comes with a teleport that ignores LoS/walls/verticality, but also a free DoT + minor maim for free 5% mitigation.

So again, this is only applicable to Brawlers. Ranged Nightblades have no use for this skill really.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

P.s. this is from someone who has been playing a lot of NB lately (not just brawler blade) and who also took the 2 minutes it takes to ensure correct information by double checking the class on the build editor that shows every single skill.

P.P.S. This is from someone who has been playing Nightblade in PvE and PvP since the beginning and who will only play a Brawler in BGs when - albeit rarely - the mood strikes. Your points are valid but mostly only for Brawlers.

Sorry but you're acting like slotting any defensive ability makes you a brawler when that's not the case, it just makes you intelligent. You're purposefully gimping yourself, then crying that you don't have any defensive tools.

Maybe if you actually slotted some of those abilities you'd realize NBs won't have it so bad after all.

Are we going to go through the entire nb toolkit and pretend like you can have them all fit in the bars? You pick and choose what you can fit after filling up most slots with necessary utilities.

I'll leave devoting 99% of the bar space to defensive abilities to players who fear their avatars dying. I played a certain zombie game for a long time where death actually was heartbreaking because you lost everything. Players in ESO get to respawn like nothing happened but boy, there are so many more complaints.

ioResult

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Sorry but you're acting like slotting any defensive ability makes you a brawler when that's not the case, it just makes you intelligent. You're purposefully gimping yourself, then crying that you don't have any defensive tools.

Maybe if you actually slotted some of those abilities you'd realize NBs won't have it so bad after all.

I do slot some and have slotted every single ability that is mentioned.

I've tried putting a fear on and putting power extraction on. They're iffy at best.

There's better & easier ways to get Brutality than Power Extraction.

There are other skills outside the Nightblade skill line for snare removal that have greater utility than Blur.

As I said, Fear rarely hits unless you just stand still and wait for the target to run past you.

You act like I haven't played the class for a decade. I have. It isn't as rosy as those skills are painted and they benefit melee far more than they do ranged when - again - the vast, vast, vast majority of Nightblades play ranged.

That's why I said that the way things are constructed in the skill trees, Brawlers (i.e. melee Nightblades) can take the most advantage of them.

But the reality is that melee Nightblades (with Rallying Cry and a back bar staff that is rarely even used as a weapon) isn't the playstyle of most Nightblades.

So what I was pointing out is that saying Nightblades "have all the things" is erroneous because most of us aren't melee so we don't use skills that only have a 6 - 8 meter range.

huskandhunger

Just run Sithis Touch and go invisible 🫥 in kills ^^ it's a lot of fun 😊 that way can live the stealthy ganker roleplay dream


myself I'm roleplay werewolf, it's a ruff life, but someone's gotta do it 😎

Mayrael

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

Anifaas wrote: »

I wonder who will be the next to have their colour drained from them?

Kind of what I was wondering. Playing with the core ability for a class. It's what makes the class fun in PVE and PVP, without it as it might as well just play any class as any class can stealth with Vamp four sigh.

Who's next? It's the reason I stopped playing WOW many years ago, quit the very day it happened. They completely changed a class dynamic and that was it.

Might be time for the next game. It's not so much this change but the last straw really, with the recent changes to vendoring and other things. Constant combat changes, constant.

Yup. That's the case for me, but TBH I knew that will come sooner or later Was fun 10 years but TBH with ZOS each patch was a rollercoaster, more time for other things now

burglar

Just thinking of coming back to the game, and reading this... I just don't know. I guess we will see the end result with the update.

I always wish zenimax had done nightblade stealth like mythic did classes in dark age of camelot. Only stealthers could spec stealth (add points to it), and doing so only made you harder to detect, and run a little faster, but once you were revealed you were revealed... that was it. But! You had tons of tools to help you once you emerged from the shadows, like poisons and fancy evasion tricks, and combos and skills that weakened the enemy. Often times, you either killed the person, or you died. You could sometimes get away by using hindrance poisons which worked like snares, and disease pots to reduce healing. But... that was pretty much it. Once you got to a really high rank in pvp you could gain a skill called vanish that worked like cloak does in ESO, but you could only use it once every 10 minutes or something.

People complain that cloak in this game is broken, and I think that it can definitely be seen that way. But, if you're gonna do that, you have to look at everything that's broken, because almost every class has something that feels broken to other players... but the problem goes beyond single abilties. What, at least to me, seems to break this game's pvp is the lack of restriction put on each class to help create reliable power imbalances that opponents can exploit. In most games I've played the protocol was that: stealthers killed the mages, the mages killed the tanks, and the tanks killed the stealthers, and the regular DPS killed everyone they could get close to. It's easy to see how that could create a constant sense of equity: there was always someone weaker than you to kill. Combat outcomes could deviate from that protocol but it took knowledge, skill, time, etc..

By the nature of ESOs design, I don't see how that concept is possible... and it seems to me, that the only power imbalances that can be controlled reliably, are in the natch potes; the updates. It doesn't come down to mage>tank>stealther>mage... it's whichever class has the most exploitable build, which is then nerfed, and things are shifted, then another class or armor set takes the stage. Many find it exhausting, or they get bored, and they loeave, but return when their class is "resurrected" or elden ring gets boring.

Granted, the magnitude of this change is going to make the class feel entirely different on a fundamental level, like it would change sorcerer to make summons or shields work similarly. But... I'm trying to remain optimistic. They've gotta cycle back... right? Because I don't know how melee magblade is going to work.