The change of NB cloak will totally change this class, most fun part gone,

LonePirate

I think everybody should be on the same playing field in PVP, so nobody should be able to go into stealth mode for 2-3 seconds after attacking another player. No other class has this ability and there is no reason for NBs to do this in PVP from a fairness perspective. Letting them remain in stealth before the attack is fine, just not after. They should not be free of the consequences of their actions. NBs want a god mode PVP play style where they can attack with impunity and escape without ever receiving a tick of damage afterwards. That’s not healthy or fair gameplay despite ZOS indulging NBs like a favorite child.

TechMaybeHic

LonePirate wrote: »

I think everybody should be on the same playing field in PVP, so nobody should be able to go into stealth mode for 2-3 seconds after attacking another player. No other class has this ability and there is no reason for NBs to do this in PVP from a fairness perspective. Letting them remain in stealth before the attack is fine, just not after. They should not be free of the consequences of their actions. NBs want a god mode PVP play style where they can attack with impunity and escape without ever receiving a tick of damage afterwards. That’s not healthy or fair gameplay despite ZOS indulging NBs like a favorite child.

Not sure we need to go here as it will only inflame, but I think the purpose of cloak over just crouch is you can go invisible right in front of someone. That will still happen with this change. Can't spam it and dodge attacks via doing so now as its going to break the toggle and ramp the cost up, but that should be fine. It also is going to make it more costly just cloaking past guards that detect crouching players very easily in order to get to a place to attack someone, but that to me might also be fine. Gives purpose to the word "guard" rather than just NPC speedbump.

Tommy_The_Gun

Tbh there seems to be a whole pandora box of issues that ZOS is opening with converting casting cloak every 3 seconds to toggle (and some people already bring up those issue here & there), but there are most likely issues that will be uncovered in the future too. Cost & duration on "new" cloak is a peace of cake if compared to those "bug" related issues.

The main problem is that Shadow Cloak & Shadowy Disguise were never designed to work as a toggle. It is all about how those skills are coded. From the start of the game till now (10 years ! ) those skills were coded with casting those skills in mind and, not "a stance" or "a mode" that you switch on or off.

For instance, the most basic problem (that even NB haters do acknowledge) is that.. to quote: "Cloak is either very strong or Useless, there is no middle-ground."

The simple example of that is what often happens in Laggy PvP environment. Some one is pew-pewing bow at a enemy NB. NB cloaks. Sometimes, it will work and attacking players will see "miss", "miss", "miss"... But sometime what will happen is that one projectile will hit the target (or be fired at a target) before cloaking animation will be completed on a server side and despite seeing "miss", that direct damage light attack will actually go through cloak & interrupt it, despite game rules strictly saying that when it come to damage, only AOE direct dmg type of skills to break cloak.

On live, there is a "stop gap" fix for this lag bug that many NBs do. Cuz what usually happens next is that NBs tend to "spam" cloak like 2 or 3 time initially, to prevent random single target skills to remove invisibility. If you do that, chances are that if the next LA projectile will land on you, your status on server side will be that you are invisible.
Guess what is going to happen when cloak will became a toggle ?

This is just one example. The other would be Detection Potions that currently on PTS, do remove invisibility, but not completely. It is kinda removed... but at the same time not removed and cloak is still toggled on, while not providing invisibility, but mag recovery is disabled & drained mag goes into limbo.

It is all happening due to detection potions & skills being coded to counter "castable" cloak, not toggleable one.

As I have mentioned this is just the tip of the iceberg and I am pretty sure that some mobs for example will also keep ignoring invisibility. It is going to be a mess.

And I bet it is all because "under the hood", cloak is still a casting skill, but they changed duration from 3 seconds to 99999999 seconds and added a line of code that changes the duration to 0.00001 second when you cast cloak again.

All I know for sure is that last time when ZOS touched on invisibility to change something "under the hood", they created billions of annoying mini-bugs that made invisibility & stealth close to useless and it took them like 2 years to clean up the mess.

StaticWave

System_Data wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

It doesn't stop them, but it will force them to adapt to play around Cloak. You know, like how I and many others adapted to deal with multiple NB gankers by building tankier There's a reason why many people run around with 40k+ HP and high resistances. It's not fun being ganked for 25-30k damage from stealth.

Pick my battles? That's laughable. A fight between a NB ganker and a normal build is usually initiated by the NB ganker, not the other way around. After all, I'm not the one hiding in stealth picking who I'm sniping. I'm not forcing myself to chase the NB. The NB is intentionally revealing himself by targeting me and running away when I decide to chase him. If I turn my back around, he will continue to snipe me from max range until I do something about it. If you fail to kill someone while having all the advantage of stealth, you deserve to lose the fight, not spam Cloak and run away.

All they will adapt is just wait longer for their resources to return. Tank/brawlerblades and rangeblades won't be affected. Only casuals and gankers will be affected by this change, but hey i guess you just want easy pickings. I get hit by random damage from ranged as well, but i don't get emotional about needing to kill some far off NB and it's not like you can streak away from the NB. Failing to kill from stealth doesn't mean anything. You just decided that they deserve to lose, it sounds like you have an ego.

The reason why so many people run around with 40k+ HP and high resistances is because they can, while also being able to do a good amount of damage. If ZOS deleted NBs, you'd still see people with those builds. Ballgroups are also a reason why anyone would want to have those tankbuilds anyways as well.

At the end of the day, i want NBs to be nerfed, just not slapped with a ramping costs on cloak or this change because it's not a really effective way of curbing down their effectiveness. I will, however, enjoy not spamming cloak, cruise through, idle and repeat though lol.

You must have never been ganked by a coordinated NB group then. It changes your perspective once you’re on the receiving end.

Imagine a scenario where you’re attacking a keep and out of no where you’re getting hit by 3 snipes + 3 Tarnish procs. You turn around and there are 3 NBs from 3 directions, all wearing the same guild tabard. You try to run away, but they keep following and poking you from further back. You turn around to fight, and they all enter stealth.

There are only 2 things to do in that situation - to fight back or to run away into a keep. You aren’t “picking battles”. You’re either dying or surviving. I’ve been on the receiving end of that situation many times and it forced me to build 35k+ resistances with 35k+ HP just to survive.

So tell me, how are you going to pick a battle that just comes at you? Did I pick my battle or did those NBs pick their battle? If I had known there were 3 NBs in stealth with proc sets, I would’ve never engaged in that fight. But the problem is I don’t know where they are, and that means I don’t get the luxury of “picking my battles”.

If those NBs picked a fight with me and failed to kill me, then they deserve to die, plain and simple. I don’t mind dying in a 1v1, but if ppl Xv1 me and run away in their little Cloak then I’m 100% in favor of nerfing this skill lmao.

argonian37

LonePirate wrote: »

I think everybody should be on the same playing field in PVP, so nobody should be able to go into stealth mode for 2-3 seconds after attacking another player. No other class has this ability and there is no reason for NBs to do this in PVP from a fairness perspective. Letting them remain in stealth before the attack is fine, just not after. They should not be free of the consequences of their actions. NBs want a god mode PVP play style where they can attack with impunity and escape without ever receiving a tick of damage afterwards. That’s not healthy or fair gameplay despite ZOS indulging NBs like a favorite child.

I think that this point of view is the key here and like… the serpent’s egg of all the nerf asking all these years. Good game’s design is not about giving all the same tools for everyone. The main idea is that you have to choose how you want to play and there you choose your class, choose your skills, choose what potions you have on your wheel, choose if you slot siege, etc. in that exercise you leave other things behind and yes, that means that some players will run away because they are faster than you, some players will nuke you because they have more burst that you, some players will be more tankier than you, and the etc is infinite… actually some players will kill you because they are simply better than you.
Everyone of those players choose other things and thats ok, is the nature of the game. In that choosing of those players, they left other resources behind, like you.
It seems that you value face to face combat, but not everyone wants to play that way. To solve this issue Zos give us counters to each playstyle, there are there, for everyone and each counter has a limit. “Yes, detection pots dont have 100% uptime!” Thats not cheating, is a limit that the design of the tool has, because a counter is not a final solution, is a tool, like every skill in this game with a limit, and the success of the tool depends on a lot of factors like… timing, skill, luck, etc. is not a guaranteed-finish-the-issue resource.
What im trying to say is that a game when by design (and nerfing is a part of an iterative process of design) the direction it takes is killing playstyles, the final result will be less variety, less different colors in the game and it will be incredible boring. I know that being ganked is frustrating, but playing an absolute plain game when everyone is slotting the same sets, everyone plays the same way and everyone makes the same design (because a build is a design too) of a character will be incredible boring and much more frustrating than that. When people is so happy with the killing of (yet another) playstyle I wonder if they know that they are contributing to turn cyro in a more empty, plain, colourless and boring place.
Like the proverb says… “mind what you ask for, it may become a reality”

huskandhunger

bro just do what i do, i'm a ganker werewolf and i use infused potion cooldown glyphs bringing my invisibility potions down to 21 seconds, and that is how i stealth with the alliance health draughts to get the drop on players, and i'm not even a nightblade--i'm a templar werewolf! If I can do it, you can too, nightblade buddies, so keep hearty and hale and adapt instead of being in the dumps, the change is not even a big deal, bro ^__^

ZeroAxis

StaticWave wrote: »

System_Data wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

It doesn't stop them, but it will force them to adapt to play around Cloak. You know, like how I and many others adapted to deal with multiple NB gankers by building tankier There's a reason why many people run around with 40k+ HP and high resistances. It's not fun being ganked for 25-30k damage from stealth.

Pick my battles? That's laughable. A fight between a NB ganker and a normal build is usually initiated by the NB ganker, not the other way around. After all, I'm not the one hiding in stealth picking who I'm sniping. I'm not forcing myself to chase the NB. The NB is intentionally revealing himself by targeting me and running away when I decide to chase him. If I turn my back around, he will continue to snipe me from max range until I do something about it. If you fail to kill someone while having all the advantage of stealth, you deserve to lose the fight, not spam Cloak and run away.

All they will adapt is just wait longer for their resources to return. Tank/brawlerblades and rangeblades won't be affected. Only casuals and gankers will be affected by this change, but hey i guess you just want easy pickings. I get hit by random damage from ranged as well, but i don't get emotional about needing to kill some far off NB and it's not like you can streak away from the NB. Failing to kill from stealth doesn't mean anything. You just decided that they deserve to lose, it sounds like you have an ego.

The reason why so many people run around with 40k+ HP and high resistances is because they can, while also being able to do a good amount of damage. If ZOS deleted NBs, you'd still see people with those builds. Ballgroups are also a reason why anyone would want to have those tankbuilds anyways as well.

At the end of the day, i want NBs to be nerfed, just not slapped with a ramping costs on cloak or this change because it's not a really effective way of curbing down their effectiveness. I will, however, enjoy not spamming cloak, cruise through, idle and repeat though lol.

You must have never been ganked by a coordinated NB group then. It changes your perspective once you’re on the receiving end.

Imagine a scenario where you’re attacking a keep and out of no where you’re getting hit by 3 snipes + 3 Tarnish procs. You turn around and there are 3 NBs from 3 directions, all wearing the same guild tabard. You try to run away, but they keep following and poking you from further back. You turn around to fight, and they all enter stealth.

There are only 2 things to do in that situation - to fight back or to run away into a keep. You aren’t “picking battles”. You’re either dying or surviving. I’ve been on the receiving end of that situation many times and it forced me to build 35k+ resistances with 35k+ HP just to survive.

So tell me, how are you going to pick a battle that just comes at you?

And there you have it. A big reason behind it, IMO. Ganking, especially melee to brawl, is extremely fun and risky when you are alone.

When you have a pack of even 3 NBs, which is extremely common now (sometimes in full groups of 12 and running 3 proc sets), it becomes a very jading experience for many players.

Conversely, the ability for many classes to stack health and/or shields while being ultra tanky and still lethal gave birth to some of it.

Balance does not exist in this game right now. I run alone or alongside my own alliance, I win some and I lose some, and my build/playstyle will be just fine with this change. For others, this is a major pounding.

It’s a very hard thing to say what is true balance anymore. The combinations of procs and CP have created sooooo many options that management is impossible.

ShadowProc

StaticWave wrote: »

System_Data wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

It doesn't stop them, but it will force them to adapt to play around Cloak. You know, like how I and many others adapted to deal with multiple NB gankers by building tankier There's a reason why many people run around with 40k+ HP and high resistances. It's not fun being ganked for 25-30k damage from stealth.

Pick my battles? That's laughable. A fight between a NB ganker and a normal build is usually initiated by the NB ganker, not the other way around. After all, I'm not the one hiding in stealth picking who I'm sniping. I'm not forcing myself to chase the NB. The NB is intentionally revealing himself by targeting me and running away when I decide to chase him. If I turn my back around, he will continue to snipe me from max range until I do something about it. If you fail to kill someone while having all the advantage of stealth, you deserve to lose the fight, not spam Cloak and run away.

All they will adapt is just wait longer for their resources to return. Tank/brawlerblades and rangeblades won't be affected. Only casuals and gankers will be affected by this change, but hey i guess you just want easy pickings. I get hit by random damage from ranged as well, but i don't get emotional about needing to kill some far off NB and it's not like you can streak away from the NB. Failing to kill from stealth doesn't mean anything. You just decided that they deserve to lose, it sounds like you have an ego.

The reason why so many people run around with 40k+ HP and high resistances is because they can, while also being able to do a good amount of damage. If ZOS deleted NBs, you'd still see people with those builds. Ballgroups are also a reason why anyone would want to have those tankbuilds anyways as well.

At the end of the day, i want NBs to be nerfed, just not slapped with a ramping costs on cloak or this change because it's not a really effective way of curbing down their effectiveness. I will, however, enjoy not spamming cloak, cruise through, idle and repeat though lol.

You must have never been ganked by a coordinated NB group then. It changes your perspective once you’re on the receiving end.

Imagine a scenario where you’re attacking a keep and out of no where you’re getting hit by 3 snipes + 3 Tarnish procs. You turn around and there are 3 NBs from 3 directions, all wearing the same guild tabard. You try to run away, but they keep following and poking you from further back. You turn around to fight, and they all enter stealth.

There are only 2 things to do in that situation - to fight back or to run away into a keep. You aren’t “picking battles”. You’re either dying or surviving. I’ve been on the receiving end of that situation many times and it forced me to build 35k+ resistances with 35k+ HP just to survive.

So tell me, how are you going to pick a battle that just comes at you? Did I pick my battle or did those NBs pick their battle? If I had known there were 3 NBs in stealth with proc sets, I would’ve never engaged in that fight. But the problem is I don’t know where they are, and that means I don’t get the luxury of “picking my battles”.

If those NBs picked a fight with me and failed to kill me, then they deserve to die, plain and simple. I don’t mind dying in a 1v1, but if ppl Xv1 me and run away in their little Cloak then I’m 100% in favor of nerfing this skill lmao.

Seriously? You are literally saying a group of night blades. It only takes one of another class to take down the nightblade. This is literally about 1xers caring only about removing a class that is in a coordinated group. So we are balancing now around outnumbered situations? Smh.

Theist_VII

Only needed 2 seconds here; what’s the problem?

Tcholl

I was not defending the nerf to cloak in itself, since my experience comes only from fighting against NBs or alongside NBs on PvP raids. However, after reading some comments here, I believe this change will be a good one to solo and small scale PvP.

There are some players that want to keep abusing the skill and now they will have to moderate its use. Also, as I have said before, it is very boring to face invisible players all the time. Yes, everyone has to do die in PvP, including the invisi NBs.

Ppl saying that this change will not affect range proc builds are mistaken. Of course it will, since they also abuse cloak as soon as you are close to them. In this case, it will be much harder to cloak and quickly fire again by the back.

All of this on the context that I have explained before: other classes have suffered with nerfs while NBs are on top of tier lists for some time now.

System_Data

StaticWave wrote: »

You must have never been ganked by a coordinated NB group then. It changes your perspective once you’re on the receiving end.

Imagine a scenario where you’re attacking a keep and out of no where you’re getting hit by 3 snipes + 3 Tarnish procs. You turn around and there are 3 NBs from 3 directions, all wearing the same guild tabard. You try to run away, but they keep following and poking you from further back. You turn around to fight, and they all enter stealth.

There are only 2 things to do in that situation - to fight back or to run away into a keep. You aren’t “picking battles”. You’re either dying or surviving. I’ve been on the receiving end of that situation many times and it forced me to build 35k+ resistances with 35k+ HP just to survive.

So tell me, how are you going to pick a battle that just comes at you? Did I pick my battle or did those NBs pick their battle? If I had known there were 3 NBs in stealth with proc sets, I would’ve never engaged in that fight. But the problem is I don’t know where they are, and that means I don’t get the luxury of “picking my battles”.

If those NBs picked a fight with me and failed to kill me, then they deserve to die, plain and simple. I don’t mind dying in a 1v1, but if ppl Xv1 me and run away in their little Cloak then I’m 100% in favor of nerfing this skill lmao.

I have been on the receiving end of ganks by plenty of groups of different classes. Sometimes i live and sometimes i die. It would not change my perspective if it was only a group of NBs.

First off, if you're against multiple aggressors, it should be normal that you die. Usually in most PvP games, having a single person outlive against many aggressors is a sign of bad design. Why would you try to advocate this bad design is absurd. Secondly, it would be even worse if you live against a coordinated group.

Thankfully the solution to that is to fight using the same strategy and should you go off alone, well you know the risks. This really just falls on you not being able to accept these notions or you believe that good game design should allow you to always live or have a fighting chance 1vX. Or for some reason you feel it's much "cheaper" and worse to be killed by the class that's meant to be sneaky peaky.

Seriously, if i die to 3 range NBs ganking me, i just take the L and move on. Just like if i got ganged up by any groups of classes to be fair. You either put yourself in an unfavourable position or you got hunted down. Either way, that's the way of coordinated attacks.

Why Snipe 35m range hasn't been nerf is ZOS doing. People will keep using the broken skills, broken sets because ZOS enables these toxic relationships.

Galeriano2

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

argonian37 wrote: »

We cant ask to have jack of all trades solutions for every type of player, because that is not balance… thats boring.

Yeah, it is weird. ZOS made very strong hard counters and somehow, some people simply refuse to use it & instead complain. I mean it is silly to have countermeasures lying around & just ignore them.

- Sir ! Enemy armor incoming ! We have some bazookas. Can we use them ?
- No, withdraw to the nearest outpost. I will call high command to nerf the tank's armor so we can use our MGs. It will be easier.

I mean this is the kind of picture I am getting out of this whole situation. And tbh... it is kinda dangerous for this game as a whole.

I guess maybe it has something to do with some kind of society aspect and how people over time got more & more pretentious ? Idk.

But I do agree - ESO has this rock - paper - scissors aspect and dumbing down the game will just make it more boring.

Going by Your logic ZoS also gave nightblades plenty of counters to these supposed cloak hardcouters yet it seems like nightblades simply refuse to use it & instead complain. I mean this is silly, countermeasures to sources of detection are lying around and nightblades just ignore them.

ioResult

West93 wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

Players have built tankier and tankier because they could while still dealing tremendous damage. One of the few classes that could actually bring them down is being gutted.

You mean do damage behind the safety of zerg on 24k hp glass cannon nightblade tarnished sniper, trying to bring down that templar/dk who is just trying to 1vx against greater odds and facing his opponents bravely face to face.

LMAO, so I guess the snipers and Special Ops soldiers in all the worlds armies - who are hailed as the best of the best soldiers in real life - that operate mostly from the shadows and distance to protect the other troops are just cowards? You're saying Special Forces are just cowards? Do you see how ridiculous you sound right now?

Squads of night blades in stealth have frequently stopped reinforcements from arriving from the other factions when those other factions are trying to take one of the keeps owned by those nightblades' factions. Most of the time their own faction doesn't even know they have eliminated all potential reinforcements and that is why the keep was saved. They don't ask for recognition or glory.

But sure, they're cowards. Go tell that to the face of a Navy Seal & see how they react to you. Navy Seals hide in shadows, strike from the shadows with overwhelming force and then slide right back into the shadows. But ZOS wants to just make that harder and harder to do in Cyrodiil every patch.

StaticWave

ioResult wrote: »

West93 wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

Players have built tankier and tankier because they could while still dealing tremendous damage. One of the few classes that could actually bring them down is being gutted.

You mean do damage behind the safety of zerg on 24k hp glass cannon nightblade tarnished sniper, trying to bring down that templar/dk who is just trying to 1vx against greater odds and facing his opponents bravely face to face.

LMAO, so I guess the snipers and Special Ops soldiers in all the worlds armies - who are hailed as the best of the best soldiers in real life - that operate mostly from the shadows and distance to protect the other troops are just cowards? You're saying Special Forces are just cowards? Do you see how ridiculous you sound right now?

Squads of night blades in stealth have frequently stopped reinforcements from arriving from the other factions when those other factions are trying to take one of the keeps owned by those nightblades' factions. Most of the time their own faction doesn't even know they have eliminated all potential reinforcements and that is why the keep was saved. They don't ask for recognition or glory.

But sure, they're cowards. Go tell that to the face of a Navy Seal & see how they react to you. Navy Seals hide in shadows, strike from the shadows with overwhelming force and then slide right back into the shadows. But ZOS wants to just make that harder and harder to do in Cyrodiil every patch.

Nah, a squad of NB gankers can maybe kill 2-3 ppl at best. But a squad of small scalers can absolutely take on 15+ people. There are plenty of clips on Youtube demonstrating how groups of 3-4 small scalers fight head on with 15+ ppl from another faction. Show me a clip of NB gankers doing the same.

Galeriano2

StaticWave wrote: »

ioResult wrote: »

West93 wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

Players have built tankier and tankier because they could while still dealing tremendous damage. One of the few classes that could actually bring them down is being gutted.

You mean do damage behind the safety of zerg on 24k hp glass cannon nightblade tarnished sniper, trying to bring down that templar/dk who is just trying to 1vx against greater odds and facing his opponents bravely face to face.

LMAO, so I guess the snipers and Special Ops soldiers in all the worlds armies - who are hailed as the best of the best soldiers in real life - that operate mostly from the shadows and distance to protect the other troops are just cowards? You're saying Special Forces are just cowards? Do you see how ridiculous you sound right now?

Squads of night blades in stealth have frequently stopped reinforcements from arriving from the other factions when those other factions are trying to take one of the keeps owned by those nightblades' factions. Most of the time their own faction doesn't even know they have eliminated all potential reinforcements and that is why the keep was saved. They don't ask for recognition or glory.

But sure, they're cowards. Go tell that to the face of a Navy Seal & see how they react to you. Navy Seals hide in shadows, strike from the shadows with overwhelming force and then slide right back into the shadows. But ZOS wants to just make that harder and harder to do in Cyrodiil every patch.

Nah, a squad of NB gankers can maybe kill 2-3 ppl at best. But a squad of small scalers can absolutely take on 15+ people. There are plenty of clips on Youtube demonstrating how groups of 3-4 small scalers fight head on with 15+ ppl from another faction. Show me a clip of NB gankers doing the same.

Bomb blades? And they can do it in few seconds.

StaticWave

In fact let me show you a 2v6 I just did 2 days ago. Nothing fancy here, but 2 of us were able to hold off 6 EPs from going to another keep:

https://youtu.be/1I3XcJBQzcQ?si=tkg-4VO1kb0UDYpM

When I small scaled last week in a group of 4 players, we were able to hold off between 10-15 DCs from going to the emp keeps. That is something NB gankers can never do.

StaticWave

System_Data wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

You must have never been ganked by a coordinated NB group then. It changes your perspective once you’re on the receiving end.

Imagine a scenario where you’re attacking a keep and out of no where you’re getting hit by 3 snipes + 3 Tarnish procs. You turn around and there are 3 NBs from 3 directions, all wearing the same guild tabard. You try to run away, but they keep following and poking you from further back. You turn around to fight, and they all enter stealth.

There are only 2 things to do in that situation - to fight back or to run away into a keep. You aren’t “picking battles”. You’re either dying or surviving. I’ve been on the receiving end of that situation many times and it forced me to build 35k+ resistances with 35k+ HP just to survive.

So tell me, how are you going to pick a battle that just comes at you? Did I pick my battle or did those NBs pick their battle? If I had known there were 3 NBs in stealth with proc sets, I would’ve never engaged in that fight. But the problem is I don’t know where they are, and that means I don’t get the luxury of “picking my battles”.

If those NBs picked a fight with me and failed to kill me, then they deserve to die, plain and simple. I don’t mind dying in a 1v1, but if ppl Xv1 me and run away in their little Cloak then I’m 100% in favor of nerfing this skill lmao.

I have been on the receiving end of ganks by plenty of groups of different classes. Sometimes i live and sometimes i die. It would not change my perspective if it was only a group of NBs.

First off, if you're against multiple aggressors, it should be normal that you die. Usually in most PvP games, having a single person outlive against many aggressors is a sign of bad design. Why would you try to advocate this bad design is absurd. Secondly, it would be even worse if you live against a coordinated group.

Thankfully the solution to that is to fight using the same strategy and should you go off alone, well you know the risks. This really just falls on you not being able to accept these notions or you believe that good game design should allow you to always live or have a fighting chance 1vX. Or for some reason you feel it's much "cheaper" and worse to be killed by the class that's meant to be sneaky peaky.

Seriously, if i die to 3 range NBs ganking me, i just take the L and move on. Just like if i got ganged up by any groups of classes to be fair. You either put yourself in an unfavourable position or you got hunted down. Either way, that's the way of coordinated attacks.

Why Snipe 35m range hasn't been nerf is ZOS doing. People will keep using the broken skills, broken sets because ZOS enables these toxic relationships.

It’s normal to die to a group of ppl within your skill level but it’s definitely also normal to 1vX a bunch of players worse than you. This is nothing new in PvP games. Even in FPS games like Counter Strike it’s not uncommon for a GE player to 1v5 a team of Silvers or Gold Novas.

I would argue that it’s not healthy for games to remove skill difference from the equation and have worse players be on equal grounds with a better player. PvP games must allow players to express their superior skill over their opponents, or there is simply no reason to play those games at all.

Again, I’m not mad I died to the NBs. I’m simply stating the unspoken and broken mechanics that players can abuse with Cloak. It’s on the same ball park as unkillable tanks sitting on 1 flag preventing you from flipping it. There are zero counterplays to that and it’s not healthy at all.

huskandhunger

🔪🥷✨🧙‍♂️🪄😌✌️

Jsmalls

StaticWave wrote: »

System_Data wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

You must have never been ganked by a coordinated NB group then. It changes your perspective once you’re on the receiving end.

Imagine a scenario where you’re attacking a keep and out of no where you’re getting hit by 3 snipes + 3 Tarnish procs. You turn around and there are 3 NBs from 3 directions, all wearing the same guild tabard. You try to run away, but they keep following and poking you from further back. You turn around to fight, and they all enter stealth.

There are only 2 things to do in that situation - to fight back or to run away into a keep. You aren’t “picking battles”. You’re either dying or surviving. I’ve been on the receiving end of that situation many times and it forced me to build 35k+ resistances with 35k+ HP just to survive.

So tell me, how are you going to pick a battle that just comes at you? Did I pick my battle or did those NBs pick their battle? If I had known there were 3 NBs in stealth with proc sets, I would’ve never engaged in that fight. But the problem is I don’t know where they are, and that means I don’t get the luxury of “picking my battles”.

If those NBs picked a fight with me and failed to kill me, then they deserve to die, plain and simple. I don’t mind dying in a 1v1, but if ppl Xv1 me and run away in their little Cloak then I’m 100% in favor of nerfing this skill lmao.

I have been on the receiving end of ganks by plenty of groups of different classes. Sometimes i live and sometimes i die. It would not change my perspective if it was only a group of NBs.

First off, if you're against multiple aggressors, it should be normal that you die. Usually in most PvP games, having a single person outlive against many aggressors is a sign of bad design. Why would you try to advocate this bad design is absurd. Secondly, it would be even worse if you live against a coordinated group.

Thankfully the solution to that is to fight using the same strategy and should you go off alone, well you know the risks. This really just falls on you not being able to accept these notions or you believe that good game design should allow you to always live or have a fighting chance 1vX. Or for some reason you feel it's much "cheaper" and worse to be killed by the class that's meant to be sneaky peaky.

Seriously, if i die to 3 range NBs ganking me, i just take the L and move on. Just like if i got ganged up by any groups of classes to be fair. You either put yourself in an unfavourable position or you got hunted down. Either way, that's the way of coordinated attacks.

Why Snipe 35m range hasn't been nerf is ZOS doing. People will keep using the broken skills, broken sets because ZOS enables these toxic relationships.

It’s normal to die to a group of ppl within your skill level but it’s definitely also normal to 1vX a bunch of players worse than you. This is nothing new in PvP games. Even in FPS games like Counter Strike it’s not uncommon for a GE player to 1v5 a team of Silvers or Gold Novas.

I would argue that it’s not healthy for games to remove skill difference from the equation and have worse players be on equal grounds with a better player. PvP games must allow players to express their superior skill over their opponents, or there is simply no reason to play those games at all.

Again, I’m not mad I died to the NBs. I’m simply stating the unspoken and broken mechanics that players can abuse with Cloak. It’s on the same ball park as unkillable tanks sitting on 1 flag preventing you from flipping it. There are zero counterplays to that and it’s not healthy at all.

What do you mean? Toggle abilities work great. Look at Overload it works 100% of the time, especially in lag /sarcasm.

I get the concern. I would say test it first though. Could be one of those, being worried for nothing issues. My experience with it on the PTS (which the servers aren't good) is it's working fine.

ioResult

StaticWave wrote: »

Pick my battles? That's laughable. A fight between a NB ganker and a normal build is usually initiated by the NB ganker, not the other way around. After all, I'm not the one hiding in stealth picking who I'm sniping. I'm not forcing myself to chase the NB. The NB is intentionally revealing himself by targeting me and running away when I decide to chase him. If I turn my back around, he will continue to snipe me from max range until I do something about it. If you fail to kill someone while having all the advantage of stealth, you deserve to lose the fight, not spam Cloak and run away.

No, what's laughable is you not understanding that this change will have ZERO effect on the scenario you just described. The Nightblades waiting to Snipe you have completely FULL Mag pools when they come out of CROUCH (not Cloak) to attack you. With this change, they no longer have to "spam" cloak to get away from you. They simply press one button to toggle it on and run away just as they do today.

As I've said, people like you should be AGAINST this change because it makes it easier for new Nightblades to do what you hate. They don't have to master how to balance the casts of Cloak to maintain Mag. So when its multiple groups of SnipeBlades that kill you on your way to every tower you want to run around in, don't come back onto this forum and say you didn't know it was going to happen. Cyrodiil will be filled with more ranged SnipeBlades.

System_Data

I agree that cloak enables these behaviours but i disagree that cloak is the real problem and not stuff like Snipe, overtuned sets like Tarnished and stacked passives. I highly dislike how ZOS goes around these issues without really fixing anything and ends up creating new problems instead.

Frostmear

Nope, this nerf is justified. Learn to adapt.

System_Data

Frostmear wrote: »

Nope, this nerf is justified. Learn to adapt.

This change won't affect how i'm using NB. But just because it doesn't, doesn't mean one can't call out bad changes.

Maybe you could provide your reasoning why you think this cloak change is justified without going Cloak and x because it's never solely because of Cloak.

StaticWave

ioResult wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Pick my battles? That's laughable. A fight between a NB ganker and a normal build is usually initiated by the NB ganker, not the other way around. After all, I'm not the one hiding in stealth picking who I'm sniping. I'm not forcing myself to chase the NB. The NB is intentionally revealing himself by targeting me and running away when I decide to chase him. If I turn my back around, he will continue to snipe me from max range until I do something about it. If you fail to kill someone while having all the advantage of stealth, you deserve to lose the fight, not spam Cloak and run away.

No, what's laughable is you not understanding that this change will have ZERO effect on the scenario you just described. The Nightblades waiting to Snipe you have completely FULL Mag pools when they come out of CROUCH (not Cloak) to attack you. With this change, they no longer have to "spam" cloak to get away from you. They simply press one button to toggle it on and run away just as they do today.

As I've said, people like you should be AGAINST this change because it makes it easier for new Nightblades to do what you hate. They don't have to master how to balance the casts of Cloak to maintain Mag. So when its multiple groups of SnipeBlades that kill you on your way to every tower you want to run around in, don't come back onto this forum and say you didn't know it was going to happen. Cyrodiil will be filled with more ranged SnipeBlades.

Current Cloak:
- 4590 base cost
- Lasts 3s
- Mag regenerates while in Cloak

PTS Cloak:
- 3240 base cost
- Drains every 2s
- Mag does not regenerate while in Cloak

Let’s say the NB has 2k mag recovery and Cloaks 2 times on the live server. That equals a cost of 9180 magicka over 6 seconds. In 6 seconds, the NB gains 3 ticks of mag recovery, totaling 6k mag. 9180 - 6000 = 3k deficit.

Using the same duration, PTS Cloak would cost 9720 magicka over 6 seconds, and the NB gains nothing from magicka recovery. However, the NB can cast Siphoning Attacks every 2s to restore 2600 magicka back at the cost of 4k HP. That’s 7800k mag restored for a total of 12k HP cost. Total deficit is 1920 mag and 12k HP.

So no, I don’t think NB is going to be better off unless they specifically build for PTS Cloak, which is a good thing.

Joy_Division

ioResult wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

@ioResult

I quite literally tested in on PTS before commenting. Perma cloak is 100% possible.

Maybe you should test it before commenting? Or maybe you should increase your game knowledge? Took me 30 seconds to come up with a viable option. And I don't even main a NB.

You know who this change won't affect?

GANKERS

If you knew anything about playing Nightblade in PvP, you'd know that the Nightblades who use cloak the LEAST are gankers, ESPECIALLY ranged gankers.

They'll just sit there as they do today, crouched, using ZERO Cloaks until you come across their path. When you do, they'll group gank you as they do today and then just toggle that cloak on with one button press and get away.

If you think there will be LESS ranged gankers out there because of this change you couldn't be more wrong.

There will be more because its easier to ranged gank with this change - they'll have full Mag pools to just toggle Cloak on with one button press and still run away from you.

It's Nightblades who actually fight you and aren't running around in a Rallying Crutch build who are affected by this change.

So when you get ganked more often as a result of this and the Nightblades who have been fighting you just go back to ranged ganking and then new Nightblades come into Cyrodiil to try the easier ranged ganking meta, don't come on these forums crying because YOU'VE BEEN WARNED. Cyrodiil will be filled with ranged gankblades as a result of this change. Bet on it.

Disagree.

It absolutely will affect gankers.

It is true that gankers do not rely on spamming cloak to execute ganks. I would agree that these changes will not inconvenience their attacks.

And that's fine. While gankers are annoying (and a big reason PvP is pretty brutal to new players), the reality for me (and I would assume most experienced players, certainly those better than me) is that most of the time they fail to get a quick kill. I'm not saying they dont ever get me. Some are quite good and succeed. But it's not like they a boogieman who have me in fear whenever I leave a keep. It's after the failed gank where these changes will very much affect them. They will find it more resource intensive to avoid getting killed by a retaliating player. Which I don;t see as a problem. Ganker has a surprise attack, able to strike first. If they fail, the consequences should be difficult to avoid. It won;t affect gankers offense (which is not being mentioned in all these "NB are dead" threads). They can still do what they do. It's the margin for error is narrowing and consequences for failing is getting higher and that's not a bad thing.

As far as the part about Nightblades that "actually fight," I don;t agree with your categorization. I might not like ganking, but it certainly is a legal form of fighting. They are certainly trying to kill me and certainly fighting me (and the game certainly thinks so as I am kept in combat for 5 minutes afterward).

It must be nice to main a class that does not have to run around relying on a "Rallying Crutch" build. It is true those NBs who don't use a meta build will be affected the most. But, that's ten years of ESO. When a class gets so strong that it can ignore the meta everyone has to run, their abilities have historically gotten nerfed and they have had to adjust. Sorcerers right now are in the same boat. They can ignore some defenses that other classes need because Ward is so strong. Zos is trying to reign that in. We'll see how that unfolds in the next update. I get it. A class defining skill that allowed for unique builds is getting nerfed and people aren;t happy about it. That's an annual occurrence in ESO. nothing new here.

OK, we are warned that more NBs will try to gank us. Like that already is happening all the time. At least now, it will be easier to make them pay if they fail.

Jsmalls

ioResult wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

[snip]

[snip]

@ioResult

Bruh I have 25k resists and 1700 crit resist with 28k health. I'm not a tank

I also run detect pots regularly, shutting down lots of gankers (and groups of gankers).

Honestly tarnished getting a delay makes me happy about the easy mode meta getting a nerf.

The gankers are annoying but the only time I'm dying to them is when I'm out numbered and get caught by a ranged gank

I also don't initiate whispers unless I get undeservingly bagged (you kill me in a 1v1 or 1vX me feel free to bag me, ggs)

Think you got the wrong guy.

[edited to remove quote]

ioResult

StaticWave wrote: »

Let’s say the NB has 2k mag recovery and Cloaks 2 times on the live server. That equals a cost of 9180 magicka over 6 seconds. In 6 seconds, the NB gains 3 ticks of mag recovery, totaling 6k mag. 9180 - 6000 = 3k deficit.

Using the same duration, PTS Cloak would cost 9720 magicka over 6 seconds, and the NB gains nothing from magicka recovery. However, the NB can cast Siphoning Attacks every 2s to restore 2600 magicka back at the cost of 4k HP. That’s 7800k mag restored for a total of 12k HP cost. Total deficit is 1920 mag and 12k HP.

So no, I don’t think NB is going to be better off unless they specifically build for PTS Cloak, which is a good thing.

The way you are describing how a SnipeBlade uses cloak is you showing us that you don't play a ranged ganker SnipeBlade.

They play with half that Mag recovery. They don't need it. They cloak once to get away and that's it. Unless they get caught too close and revealed. When that happens they die no matter how many times they spam cloak because detect pots and everything else keep them revealed already today. They're glass cannons. They are all damage and no regen. They're not spamming anything like Siphoning Attacks until they get away and are safe.

If they're trying to solo Snipe gank you then you can chase them as you think you do. But in groups? If you're solo you might get one of the group but the rest will get away. Even if you get multiple of them in a group you rarely get them all and then all one does is put up a camp, the rest Rez at their camp and go back to doing it all over again. This change has no effect on that style of play.

Nightblades who want to get closer and fight both other players and NPCs in Cyrodiil are the ones who will need to do something like you describe above as a necessity next patch. This change makes their lives more difficult for no good reason. All this change does is make it more difficult for solo Nightblades who aren't ganking to even just try to solo kill all the guards at a resource. So what are they going to do? They're gonna change their builds and go be SnipeBlades in bigger Nightblade groups instead. Or they're gonna leave the game / turn off ESO Plus.

Net/Net is that all this change does is just eliminates and restricts playstyles as well as reduce ZOS' revenues, nothing more.

You all who play PVP Nightblades as casuals or not at all in Cyrodill can argue with us who play PvP Nightblades literally every day all that you want. The rise of more SnipeBlade groups is coming if this goes live with no Mag regen and no visual clue in the skill bar that its currently on or off. Why? Because SnipeBlade will be the easiest and only one of a few effective ways to play a Nightblade in Cyrodiil. And people like me refuse to keep paying ZOS every month to restrict how we play the game.

Jaimeh

ioResult wrote: »

The rise of more SnipeBlade groups is coming if this goes live with no Mag regen and no visual clue in the skill bar that its currently on or off. Why? Because SnipeBlade will be the easiest and only one of a few effective ways to play a Nightblade in Cyrodiil. And people like me refuse to keep paying ZOS every month to restrict how we play the game.

Yes, ranged snipe won't be gutted as much (which is ironic given how the tarnished meta bowblades gave rise to a lot of 'nerf cloak' posts here that led to this).

Tcholl

Funny how the cloak change will not affect any NBs but we have players desperate in this thread.

Tommy_The_Gun

Tcholl wrote: »

Funny how the cloak change will not affect any NBs but we have players desperate in this thread.

It will affect every NB that uses Shadowy Disguise morph... but not in the way everyone is thinking about.